Weight/height ratio is negatively correlated with IQ, meaning the more you weigh for your height, the lower your IQ tends to be. Almost everyone in the HBD-o-sphere assumes this correlation just means fat people tend to be dumb, which I don’t deny, but I’ve always thought it would be more interesting if low IQ muscular people were also driving the correlation.
A few weeks ago I discovered an interesting passage on page 321 of Wechsler’s Measurement and Appraisal of Adult Intelligence Fifth Edition:
…most studies report a small, but significant correlation (r of about 0.25) between IQ and Sheldon’s body type, with individuals of “tall and narrow build” (ectomorphs) earning on the average higher S-B or WAIS IQ’s than persons who are either chubby (endomorphs) or more muscular and athletically built (mesomorphs)…
This is interesting because:
a) as we evolved from ape to man, we lost muscle but gained height.
Indeed in the film Quest for Fire, set 80,000 years ago, the most advanced tribe had the least muscle, and would point and laugh at the more primitive muscular cavemen they captured.
b) When we imagine advanced life visiting from other planets, they are devoid of muscle.
.
c) the stereotypical smart guy is a scrawny nerd while the stereotypical dumb guy is a roided up wrestler or football player.
I’m tall and thin, so it must be true
I dunno… Chris Langan is pretty beefy guy..!
Metabolism plays a big part in intelligence and body mass.
What does a fast metabolism mean?
Outliers don’t real!
Lagan is beefy, but his head is clearly ginormous.
Puppy is obsessed with aliens.
Lion of the Blogosphere has made similar arguments about the inverse nature of muscularity and IQ. Makes sense to me, although I think the correlation has to be fairly weak.
What will Race Realist and Swank have to say?
I know lion thinks muscle is unhealthy & makes you die young but i don’t recall him saying it’s low IQ
Nah. I’d say that FFMI correlates positively with IQ, because it takes a lot of know-how to gain muscular size while keeping bodyfat appreciably low — enhanced or not.
It’s probably a weak correlation though, weaker than height IQ, even because it’s probably a threshold effect.
Guys who go from scrawny to muscular probably have high IQs because they figured out how to adapt the situation to their advantage; solve an important problem.
But low IQs guys might be born with the type of body that packs on muscle more easily and visibly, and have more motivation to do so.
“Guys who go from scrawny to muscular probably have high IQs because they figured out how to adapt the situation to their advantage; solve an important problem”
Or they had good guidance and a good trainer etc.
“But low IQs guys might be born with the type of body that packs on muscle more easily and visibly, and have more motivation to do so”
Evidence?
The evidence is the passage I cited in the article. The worst body type for body building (ectomorphs) has the highest IQ.
Africans are more likely to be meso/ecto; Asians and whites more likely to be endo. How does that fit with your claim?
East Africans like Obama are ecto. African Americans are over-represented among elite body builders.
Which is why I said ecto/meso to cover that, PP. I’m well aware about BBing.
touché
There is no “born with” a high FFMI body.
And what are you talking about wrt “being born with a” genetically superior disposition for gaining muscle correlating with low IQ?
If we took no one but jocks and compared them to the general populous, their IQ would be HIGHER THAN AVERAGE.
superior health correlates with superior mind.
“superior health correlates with superior mind.”
i agree
”superior health correlates with superior mind.”
Eternal misunderstood of hbdears and adjacencies about genius nature and Terman studies results.. A lot of great western geniuses died in young age.
And they were known to have a fragile physical health.
resilience is a sign of health
if not, you get nothing done
Excessive complex mind require very higher energy and it’s basically a assymetry of organic functions. A super healthy organism/body have a balanced functioning of all systems, mental included.
Blacks have a lower body fat and thinner skin folds than whites.
Oprah ia alien??
The ripped guys I see at the gym are like the pretty face boy, more average (their ethnic average + 5). The big bears seems to have a higher sd in both directions. I am impressed by ripped and symmetric faces people (my opposite)
Congrats pumpkin for the art of making the blog live while not having too much time to elaborate. My grand mother was a master to cook delicious dishes with leftover.
East Asians tend to be more endomorphic if I recall correctly.
Africa has a lot of ectomorphs…
Correct.
I usually am.
Evidence:
Title: Asians have lower body mass index (BMI) but higher percent body fat than do whites: comparisons of anthropometric measurements
Comparisons in anthropometry show that Asians had more subcutaneous fat than did whites and had different fat distributions from whites. Asians had more upper-body subcutaneous fat than did whites. The magnitude of differences between the two races was greater in females than in males.
Title: Ethnic Differences in Body Composition and Obesity Related Risk Factors: Study in Chinese and White Males Living in China
Chinese males had more body fat and a greater degree of central fat deposition pattern than that seen in white males in the present study.
So the smarter we get the more alien like we become? Is that a coincidence or did we really find aliens?
Baseless speculation.
contrary to peepee’s made up shit, high IQ types tend to be physically superior too. taller and more robust but not ridiculous ‘roid monsters like swank and not fat. but it’s only a weak correlation.
so what’s the common factor? it could be nutrition or if it’s genetic it could be the same genes affect both.
when someone “looks dumb” this refers always to his face not his body.
smartest guys i went to school with were not great athletes but they were taller and more robust than average. i actually was a good athlete. especially at soccer.
people with good looking brains have good looking bodies.
contrary to peepee’s made up shit, high IQ types tend to be physically superior too.
Tall and scrawny is physically superior in many ways. You can move faster, jump higher, reach further, and require fewer calories. There’s a reason ectomorph modern humans replaced mesomorph Neanderthals.
when someone “looks dumb” this refers always to his face not his body.
No, overly muscular guys are perceived as dumb and undignified looking, if they’re short.
“Tall and scrawny is physically superior in many ways. You can move faster, jump higher, reach further, and require fewer calories”
This is really vague. One can also think of ways that a higher fat body is “physically superior” in a given context.
there’s a genetic component to being a ‘roid monster,’ i.e. superior genetic response to hormones, i.e. your body can take much more and adapt without incident.
pumpkin, tall and scrawny != move faster, jump higher. tall and scrawny is not athletic.
No, overly muscular guys are perceived as dumb and undignified looking, if they’re short.
this is a false ‘perception’ borne of intimidation. no really!
ahnold even talked about it, or hinted at this phenomenon when he spoke of women who allegedly didn’t like all that muscle.
people always look to bring someone down. tall + muscular = dumb jock. short + muscular = compensating. black + a suit = uppity. and so on…
“there’s a genetic component to being a ‘roid monster,’ i.e. superior genetic response to hormones, i.e. your body can take much more and adapt without incident.”
This. Sensitivity on androgen receptors, for one.
“pumpkin, tall and scrawny != move faster, jump higher. tall and scrawny is not athletic.”
Agreed. He’s on the right track, but he’s missing a lot.
“women who allegedly didn’t like all that muscle.”
“allegedly”. Most women I come into contact with love muscle and a lot of it.
“people always look to bring someone down. tall + muscular = dumb jock. short + muscular = compensating. black + a suit = uppity. and so on…”
People talk down on others when others have what they want and they can’t get what others have.
It’s funny, because the majority, if not all Lacrosse players when I was in high school were in AP. They were some of the most well-rounded people: smart and athletic. The valedictorian was the leading attacker (high spatial IQ?).
Though, it needs to be said that Lacrosse is often considered the sport where guys who don’t make it on the football team go to.
i mean robust in skeleton. broad shoulders. more muscular than average but not chunky/blocky. see the pictures of charles dance as a young man. then look at bobby fischer. sometimes i think athletic ability is correlated with PIQ.
fischer was a very robust specimen. very not like toby macguire who plaid him in the movie.
not too long ago the upper classes were much larger than the lower. better nutrition was only part of it. the feudal aristocracy were often the descendants of people who had been great soldiers.
Gina Kolata, in her book Rethinking Thin, recounts how even 100 years ago a more buxom figure was seen as attractive. It’s also well known that larger figures were more attractive in the middle ages since more body fat mean more money and food.
people like what they are told to like. it’s very simple and it’s very adaptive.
if even negress-hater muggy were forced to spend 5 years immersed in negroid culture, he would find that his preferences were greatly altered.
“you” are a function of your group.
in terms of athletes you’d have to say tennis players have the highest IQ physique excepting the black gorilla serena williams.
Serena’s husband has a high IQ physique.
What is a “high IQ physique”?
The type of physique high IQ people are most likely to have: tall and thin.
A Kenyan physique?
pretty much
How is that a high IQ physique?
the highest IQ people beat you at games and at games.
they beat you at scrabble and at badminton.
they beat you at chess and at golf.
etc.
i remember i had this half asian friend in college whom i beat at chess and at ping pong over and over again.
it was sad.
i also should have said that if you have a bbc “received pronunciation” accent people will assume you’re smart even if you’re a moron.
yeah. black africa is a lot different from the descendants of slaves. slaves were selected.
i doubt nutrition explains it all.
Selection in Africa may explain it the large differences; nutrition could explain a bit of the difference.
i played tee ball (but not baseball), soccer, indoor soccer, basketball, golf, football, track, etc.
it only occurred to me yesterday that most kids didn’t play so many sports from the age of 6.
i guess my dad thought it was a good thing. idk.
yes. tall and thin but not scrawny or beanpole. or swank.
tennis players combine aerobic fitness with very short distance speed and upper body strength in their dominant arm.
Tall and thin like the androgynous archetype peddled by gay fashionistas for 40 years.
Extrapolating from the negative correlation between IQ and weight/height ratio, and the positive correlations between IQ and height and IQ and ectomorphy, I’d expect most beanpoles to be smart (which is not the same as saying most smart people are beanpoles). Unless you think the correlations are not linear.
Norm Macdonald claims to be very thin, but wears multiple lawyers of clothing to hide it.
Why don’t you think of reasons why IQ is related to those variables?
so this post is basically motivated by the prejudice that a sound mind and a sound body are not correlated…and at the extremes are negatively correlated.
it is true in part…i do expect that the blind develop more sensitive hearing…
but i do NOT expect they develop greater musical ability.
it’s just that the correlations are so weak….
and the specialization of labor is such that…
most great athletes are dumb…
most great minds are…
wait…
no!
most great minds are better at sports TOO!
Physical coordination is positively correlated with IQ, but body building doesn’t require coordination.
“body building doesn’t require coordination.”
Are you serious?
yeah pumpkin it doesn’t require physical coordination to CORRECTLY stimulate a muscle via training…
I agree it requires technique, but that’s not what i mean by coordination. I’m thinking more of fast-paced activities involving multiple body parts moving together with exquisite timing and grace. What Howard Gardener meant by bodily-kinesthetic intelligence. Fred Astaire & Michael Jackson needed coordination. Arnold needed technique.
Go correctly perform a few compound exercises and get back to me. They require “multiple body parts moving together with exquisite timing and grace.” That’s why they’re called compound movements. And they’re supposed to be performed explosively. And if you don’t perform them correctly, you don’t develop correctly.
Ahnold and all of the greats had good form, which is largely about coordination. That’s why Joe Blow Gym Rat looks like shit despite going for years…
I did a google search on how much an average man can deadlift and found this:
Strength training and weightlifting experts, Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore, estimate that an average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training (i.e. untrained). After a couple of years of proper training, that same lifter should be able to deadlift 335 pounds
And yet a special Olympic athlete (who generally are extremely impaired in physical coordination) deadlifted 660 lbs:
Swank,
“yeah pumpkin it doesn’t require physical coordination to CORRECTLY stimulate a muscle via training…”
It’s as if neuromuscular control (NMC) doesn’t exist. Body builders need to be strong and have muscular endurance. They need to do between 8 to 12 reps to get bigger. There are specific protocols to increase NMC, such as balance and stabilization programs. There is no way in hell someone is benching 300 pounds without high NMC.
PP,
“I agree it requires technique, but that’s not what i mean by coordination. I’m thinking more of fast-paced activities involving multiple body parts moving together with exquisite timing and grace.”
Just like NMC is trained using balance and stabilization programs, “fast-paced activities” are power activities, trained with power protocols, such as SAQ drills (speed, agility and quickness; quickness is reaction time).
Moving “multiple body parts together with exquisite timing and grace” takes balance, stabilization (neuromuscular coordination) and years of training. There’s no way you’re doing that if you’re not coordinated.
You’re claim that body builders need coordination is false.
“You’re claim that body builders need coordination is false.”
Your claim that body builders don’t need coordination is false.
There is no way in hell someone is benching 300 pounds without high NMC.
A special Olympic athlete EASILY benching 390 lbs:
That was a good lift. He had 400 in him.
It also doesn’t disprove my claim.
It kind of does. High NMC is extremely rare in Down syndrome people.
The guy is a powerlifter.
You said: There is no way in hell someone is benching 300 pounds without high NMC.
I showed someone who almost certainly lacks average NMC, let alone high NMC, EASILY benching 390 lbs
If you think someone is moving that much weight without high NMC you’re fooling yourself.
I showed someone who almost certainly lacks average NMC,
…and who is pumped full of steroids, go on….
High NMC is extremely rare in Down syndrome people.
“olympic athlete” is extremely rare in any group of people…go on….
someone who almost certainly lacks average NMC
…how so? in the bench press range of motion?
he probably has lower NMC than a normal olympic athlete
swank, when someone who is probably less coordinated than over 98% of the population, can bench press more than 98% of the population, it’s time to admit weight lifting does not require much physical coordination. And even in the very unlikely case that a special Olympic athlete is juicing, that would simply negate the fact that down syndrome causes weaker muscles.
swank, when someone who is probably less coordinated than over 98% of the population
you’re just assuming an olympic athlete of any kind is automatically less coordinated than 98% of the populous.
And even in the very unlikely case that a special Olympic athlete is juicing
unlikely?
lmfao
read: every athlete is juicing no exceptions.
that would simply negate the fact that down syndrome causes weaker muscles.
WRONG. it would apply to EVERY ASPECT OF ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE, INCLUDING COORDINATION, especially when we broaden the scope to simply “PEDs” of all types.
the reason a lot of “scientists” believe that AAS are limited to just “muh muscle mass” is because they are largely ignorant of them.
go read the tons of accounts by athletes talking about how their hand-eye coordination, vision, reaction times, etc. improved with taking certain AAS. and that’s not even talking about speed and other PEDs.
I’m assuming people with Down syndrome are way less coordinated than the general population. The idea of special Olympic athletes being on steroids sounds like a joke. Indeed it was the plot of an episode of South Park. Are there any documented cases? And then further speculating he might be on speed and that this improved his coordination. Speculation on top of speculation.
obese black lesbian psychopaths have the highest IQ body type.
It’s quantitative
For in everything that men do the body is useful; and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in as high a state of physical efficiency as possible. Why, even in the process of thinking, in which the use of the body seems to be reduced to a minimum, it is matter of common knowledge that grave mistakes may often be traced to bad health. And because the body is in a bad condition, loss of memory, depression, discontent, insanity often assail the mind so violently as to drive whatever knowledge it contains clean out of it. But a sound and healthy body is a strong protection to a man, and at least there is no danger then of such a calamity happening to him through physical weakness: on the contrary, it is likely that his sound condition will serve to produce effects the opposite of those that arise from bad condition. And surely a man of sense would submit to anything to obtain the effects that are the opposite of those mentioned in my list.
Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit. But you cannot see that, if you are careless; for it will not come of its own accord.
Socrates understood these things.
you can see that swank and i agree on so much…
but swank’s racism gets in the way…
like my ACTUAL gangster grandfather…
never a made man.
BECAUSE…
not italian.
”most great minds are better at sports TOO!”
evidence required…
It’s worth noting that athletes don’t become champion-level without the right mindset. You can have all the physical gifts possible, but if you don’t have the right mindset you won’t become a champion-level athlete.
michael chang supports peepee’s theory a little.
clay demands more athletic genius than grass or hard court.
chang is the youngest grand slam winner still.
chang beat the ultimate nazi tennis player, edberg.
but…
serving a tennis ball is the single hardest thing in sports.
so the tall tennis players who win just by serving deserve respect.
I see a wide range of human types at my gym. Many university students , some very educated professionals . And many “just guys’ who seem to be taken randomly from the streets. The gym is , I’d say, cheep for the city, but, of course , there may be somebody who cant afford it. Different ppl, but maybe not the whole spectrum But the most advanced athletes, real bodybuilders aren’t very smart as I can see ( and – mostly) hear it. I know one bright exception though, I guess if you have a high IQ 1) it’s hard for you to believe so desperately in exclusive importance of muscles in your life , and 2) your intense interests here and there will very likely divert your attention from your exercising. But it’s too simple to be true, right?
“But the most advanced athletes, real bodybuilders aren’t very smart as I can see ( and – mostly) hear it.”
And what kind of experience do you have with “advanced athletes” and “real bodybuilders”?
I see them at the gym, we have small talks, I hear their conversations on many different topics. Why?
lol i guarantee you’d change your mind if we set you to the task of building your physique into one that rivaled even just the golden era bodybuilders like ahnold, zane, etc.
it’s not just steroids.
tons of guys use steroids and look like dogshit.
Because “steroids” (meaning anabolic steroids, the term “steroids” is vague, which I’ll get into later) are used for more than mass gaining. People like Edge (wrestler) were roiding for years and didn’t have an impressive body.
while that’s true, that’s not what i meant.
most people who use steroids look like dogshit because they don’t understand how to use them — regardless of what their goals are. as in, i’m assuming they understand AT LEAST what the general purpose of the specific AAS is. despite knowing that much, most fail to achieve their goals.
i believe the average FFMI of steroid users was only like 23 in a study done.
that’s terrible.
it’s NOT movies.
my mother’s father was:
1. a genius
2. a gangster
no kidding.
AND A VIRGIN BEFORE HE MARRIED MY GRANDMOTHER…
ATE 34.
The brain is internally coordinated.
So if everything works together you are intelligent.
You do not need muscles so much if you can get what you want by thinking alone.
My BMI in 2011 was 17.8
Today it is 25.2 (but I have more muscle than fat)
“You do not need muscles so much if you can get what you want by thinking alone.”
Hahaha
but he would NOT have scored very high on the wechsler or any other IQ test.
his favorite thing was to listen to baseball on the radio for fuck’s sake.
peepee loves rich cock and rich clit.
this is sad and won’t be posted.
Intelligent people on average tend to make better choices about their health, which might be why higher IQ correlates with higher life expectancy. And such people will tend to have the leaner physiques reflective of a healthy lifestyle. Not to discount genetics, but everything else being equal, healthy choices lead to lower weight.
There’s a ton more to having lean, muscular physique than “IQ”. Not gonna lie, it really triggers me to see people reduce complex physiological phenomena to a reified concept. Especially when they have no experience in my field.
Even “dumb people” (as said by IQ tests) can make good healthy choices. The fact of the matter is, most people are not well informed on matters of health and fitness. Most people buy the establishment diet BS. It’s clearly wrong. I have a ton of anecdotes for everyone, but surely it doesn’t matter to anyone because it’s not from a study and is my personal experience.
test
Replied yesterday, but hit wrong ‘reply’ button. Sorry, see below for those. The gist is that my mentioning one issue, environment/nurture, doesn’t discount others; there could be clear-cut biochemical process behind Pumpkin’s idea that I touch on below. Also, everyone can make healthy choices, but smarter people are more likely to do so partly for the reason you suggest: much of what we’re told is wrong and smarter people like yourself will see through that establishment bs and figure it out. Thanks.
And people like myself get through to average Joe and Jane (say, “less intelligent”, in your words) and can have then change their habits and bodies.
” (say, “less intelligent”, in your words)” –Nope. Never said “less intelligent,” so those are not my words. Nor did I focus on “dumb people” to use your words: I said “smarter people on average” make better choices, referencing Linda Gottfredson’s work correlating higher IQ with better health choices and lower IQ with poorer choices and longer time required to teach things like controlling blood glucose and other means of self-care. I also said “everyone can make healthy choices,” but we’re talking averages.
So, it’s great that you can get Joe Shmoe to change his habits, but if he were smarter, maybe you wouldn’t have to “get through” to him at all. He’d have figured this out on his own. Then again, I’ll bet there are a lot of commenters here stuffing their faces with Cheetos and Coke. Again, averages.
Excuse me.
Higher IQ=smarter; lower IQ=?
How do you think “averages” are reached out to? (re group outreach.)
People have different specialities and expertise to help them in specific ways. It just so happens that people want to be healthy and want to be told how to do it, which is where I come in.
“I’ll bet there are a lot of commenter here stuffing their faces with Cheetos and Coke.”
I don’t doubt that.
Again, “Not gonna lie, it really triggers me to see people reduce complex physiological phenomena to a reified concept. Especially when they have no experience in my field.”
“Lower IQ =” –That wasn’t the point. The point is that you misquoted me because I didn’t use those words. That’s important because certain terminology triggers certain people, so I avoid that to facilitate civil discussion. But I made my point clear that higher IQ does correlate with better life outcomes from healthy choices, while lower IQ correlates with poorer choices. That’s a string of studies with thousands of people, so it’s not under debate. Nor does it contradict your personal, anecdotal evidence. Which you yourself note that no one wants to hear about, because it doesn’t involve a study.
So, I threw an olive leaf by not doubting thosel experiences keeping people healthy. Personally, I don’t doubt that you are able change the lives of all kinds of people, especially since in your words, it’s “average Joe”: Gottfredson found the strongest correlations among below-average people; above a certain level, most people can understand stuff–like your clients. But recognize that people who you say “want to be healthy” are by definition self-selected. And even average people who don’t seek advice often make good choices. Never said they can’t. Hence the comment about Cheetos and Coke: I am sure a lot of the smart commenters here aren’t the healthiest people, especially since you can’t be out exercising when you’re, eh, commenting.
Put it this way: I doubt a below-average person would be the one figuring things out and doling out advice. (Take a compliment? 🙂 ) I’m sure there are such people, but there are more “smart” people doing that. Averages. So above-average people, on average, will understand better what others do not. Including averages.
Never said life choices are the only factor, so I am not reducing this issue (having lean body type) to a single factor like IQ–or even making good life choices, whatever those may be. In fact, I said “not to discount genetics”–clearly, there are many people who eat very little and still do not lose weight, and others who work out constantly and don’t build muscle. And there is anecdotal evidence, like you point out, that the established ideas about dieting and living healthy are not correct. But studies by intelligence researcher Linda Gottfredson and others show that IQ does predict for healthier living outside of dieting, like compliance with medication, avoiding medical complications and accidents, and successful self-treatment. It stands to reason that such people make better choices about what the put in their mouths every day. True, the accepted wisdom about dieting might be off, but that’s the thing about being more intelligent: you are more likely to be skeptical and figure things out on your own, as your allusion to personal experience suggests. People who aren’t as intelligent are less likely to find out what what works for them as individuals (where being healthy may involve being heavier than the norm for their weight class).
On the genetic factor, there could be a mechanism behind Pumpkin’s point that as we evolved higher intelligence, we lost muscle and became leaner. It could come down to biochemistry: it takes a large amount of energy for the body to support either brain mass or muscle mass, so evolution picked brains over muscle since the former was more advantageous–we were never going to compete with lions and bears so evolution made us the nerds of the animal world rather than the jocks. With limited food resources, it would be wasteful to take both the brawny and brainy route.
no joke.
my mom was “horrified” when she found his parole papers.
1. my mother’s father spent two years in prison.
2. this was for alcohol “distribution” and book making…
3. he wasn’t a thug.
4. he was extorted for his math skills by swank’s people in NO until he died at age 60 something.
What are the color of their eyes and hair PP??
it IS so GROSS but you can see it at the corners of the dohyo.
these very european looking japanese men at the corners.
NOTICE!
the hitler and stailn HATE is so tiresome and greasy i can’t stand it.
hitler called the japs “lost aryans”.
was it just for political purposes?
How he knew If they were Lost??
The japs were called that becuase of japanese propaganda about being special, them having industry and maybe some politics. I say maybe as hitler didnt seem to accept the italians.
PP is it possible this is due to a negative correlation between height and BMI? That is, people with higher BMIs tend to be shorter and have smaller brains.
Is there a negative correlation between height and BMI?
The relation is reversed across different races, East Asians are the shortest and stockiest while Africans tend to be tall and lean.
i think this is a within race thing.
Terrence tao and that 200 IQ kim are more on the scrawny side.Fat people seem to be more street smart. While scrawny people are more book smart.While people with average muscle and fat seem to fall in between. In general. Exceptions could exist.
Working out can raise intelligence as exercising produces brain derived neurotrophic factors. But BBing however could affect intelligence esp for ectomorphs. Maybe after a point, the stronger the muscle gets faster than the body is used to, it could compete with the brain for nutrients and BDNF.
Pingback: IQ & body type — Pumpkin Person – SEO