Commenter Mug of Pee recently confessed that by the age of 13, he achieved the same level of philosophical understanding as RR achieved as an adult.
Mug of Pee’s Wechsler IQ is not known but he did take the WISC-R at age 10. On the WISC-R his lowest score was Digit Span (scaled score 10) and his highest score was Vocabulary (which should have been 19+ judging by his adult vocab).
Although the WISC-R norms were over a decade old, I did not correct for Flynn effects because Digit span and Vocabulary are not especially sensitive to them.
Assuming his mean subtest score was equally between these two extremes (a big assumption) it was 14.5 which equates to a full-scale IQ of 132.
Going by college admission tests, some might say his actual IQ is as high as 160 however commenter pill and I have noticed he lacks common sense, so let’s be conservative and go with his estimated WISC-R score.
Now commenter RR says his own IQ is 108 (tested in high school). If we go by his SAT scores, the figure might be as low as IQ 65 however RR has not been very specific about his SAT scores.
Now adult mental age is defined as 16 because that’s the age beyond which we stop getting smarter.
But out of statistical convenience, adults like RR, who have an IQ of 108 were assigned mental ages of 17.28 because that’s 108% as high as the adult average set at 16.
Now if Mug of Pee achieved the same understanding of philosophy at 13 as RR achieved as an adult, Mug of Pee’s IQ is 13/17.28 = 133, thus corroborating my estimate of his childhood WISC-R scores of 132.
PP, ban this shit, please?
PP: a new post talking about this shit…
“Philosophical understanding”
This shit has none.
Ok, i will not participate of this post. Sorry, Pee.
SO WHY IS PEEPEE ALLOWING HIM TO COMMENT?
SO LET’S BE CONSERVATIVE AND ESTIMATE PEEPEE’S IQ AT -4 SDs BELOW THE MEAN OF 100, OR 60.
4 SD below the mean is 40. You can no longer do basic math LMAO!
“ban this shit please”
Even if PP did ban me, clowns like you would still bring me up.
You don’t have to read my comments. Clown.
I mean, look at your username. You can’t get anymore clownish. You’re just a weak, little man.
I HAVE THE POWER TO DELETE YOUR COMMENTS THEREFORE I AM A GENIUS JUST LIKE OPRAH…
ANYWAY…
1. PEEPEE HAS A LOW IQ.
2. PEEPEE HAS A LOW IQ
3. PEEPEE HAS A LOW IQ.
SADLY@SADLY.COM
It will destroy you too, Mug of Pee.
This rage.
You think if you attack us all it will go away, it wont.
You need to confront where it all began.
Go home Mug of Pee!
The little girl can stop the rage.
She know how to do it Mug of Pee.
She’s sitting in the middle of the old house.
Your house, Mug of Pee.
Your house.
Don’t you remember how much better you used to be?
remember that picture you posted of peepee?
a black midget with dreads.
sad.
peepee is not just evil but she’s subhuman.
she’s a cockroach.
she smells like KFC.
and is covered in chicken grease no matter how many baths she takes.
it’s sad.
What on Earth are you blathering about; I’ve never had dreads in my life.
Why can’t you just accept criticism gracefully instead of responding with 50 counterattacks? Insulting me is not going to change the fact that you have no common sense. I’m just the messenger.
I’ve never once seen you just accept the L like a man. Just take the damn L!
however commenter pill and I have no common sense.
TRUE!
Now adult mental age is defined as 16 because that’s the age beyond which we stop getting smarter.
if you don’t see how this statement betrays your LOW IQ and AUTISM then you have a LOW IQ and AUTISM
Let me guess, you think mental age peaked at 16 because you think IQ tests only measure knowledge and historically schooling peaked at 16?
Yeah, that claim is just patently false. Brain development continues well into your 20’s.
Brain development continues in other areas (like judgement for one example), but I have heard that the raw IQ score generally stops getting higher at that point.
Fair enough. I guess for me, Intelligence is more like actualized consciousness than problem-solving ability.
Do you remember asking whether I thought my verbal or spatial IQ was higher?
What you refer to as “actualized consciousness” is what I would call ‘application of intelligence or cognitive application in general’.
>Do you remember asking whether I thought my verbal or spatial IQ was higher?
Yes, I recall asking you that some time back, I don’t know exactly how long ago.
Flamin your comments suck. you think everything is a joke but the only thats a joke in this world is your life.
Your comment is unwelcome loaded, are you having a manic episode or something?
“Yes, I recall”
It’s spatial. I definitely have higher spatial. Figured that out after I took some college classes. Kind of obvious the whole time in retrospect, but to be fair, my brain wasn’t done developing yet 😉
I see. Are you ever planning on take the WAIS test to confirm? It is kind of expensive though.
flamin im just trying to be honest with you. you have no social skills.
It seems dependent for specific case. I read an article showing that is common delay development for the “academically advanced” and school of course is often off to notice it. Most people who have little immersion on giftedness literature knows that “gifted” people tend to have an assynchronous development, for example, too much advanced in mathematical ability for his/her age but emotionally imature, or shorter for his/her age (physically imature) until reach the 20’s. I know two men who were my school friends and both are above avg in intelligence at least from quantitative (IQ), even seems around 120’s. Both were quite shorter for their age during the school period. But when i saw them when we are in our 20’s they were far taller than me. I’m very avg in height. They are now at least 7 cm taller than me. Actually i was one of the shortest in high school even being on avg human height. Weird how height can vary. But i doubt younger brazilians are as taller as the ethnic dutch or nordics.
I think Loadeds having a mental breakdown.
“Are you ever planning on take the WAIS test to confirm?”
Probably not. I don’t want the score to affect my ambitions. I did take some kind of UK intelligence test, though. I posted it here a long time ago. I’d have to find it again.
Pill youre a loser. you have no genuine ability in anything. you suck at just about everything.
you need to quit life before they kill you off.
boerperd = peepee sadly.
lurker = stupid sadly = peepee sadly.
what is changing in the human environment? over the last 250 years? over the last 10,000 years? 99+% of it is man-made. techno-material culture changes FAR faster than human genomes can adapt.
pill: but what about autistic people like gregory clark?
mugabe: fascinating! but still a small minority…so far.
murray actually commented on this on Donahue. “it used to be the best you could do was become a math professor. now you can make bank as a computer programmer.” of course murray is mentally retarded. but peepee doesn’t know this.
AND today in most countries survival is no longer an aspect of fitness. fitness is just as many babies as you can make. thus deterioration.
“fitness” at time 1 = “un-fitness” at time 2
Capitalism is exactly like a collective parasitism. So for this kind of society, really relevant fitness become mostly dysfunctional. There are few capitalistic logically normal nations like Sweden and Denmark but they are all falling apart thanks for woke virus. And Switzerland is just like Marsha confederation, a little whore which pretend to be neutral since Lewis Terman puberty.
If I were to make a list it would be based on emotional maturity, not exactly IQ because those are separate things.
The psychological report I received in 2018 and 2021 says that I am bright in intelligence yet emotionally immature. I am also depressed and have generalized anxiety disorder. I did not meet the criteria for adult autism and in the personality assessment, I feel victimized and purposeless so it makes sense I would not have a sense of autonomy others have.
pill – 17 (because he is British (but is above 40 irl))
Average American – 14 (because that is what the British say about us)
rr – 11 (is what Mugabe says)
ian – 8 (is what pp said and ian agreed)
AK – 7 (according to pill)
You have autism.
cool story bro
PP how tall are you? with your constant superiority complex you gotta back it up man.
you dont have nothing to show in your life to have as much ego as you do!
you talk a lot of shit man. get your act together before i give you a reason to.
Memorization is a big part of learning and it’s certainly true for philosophy.
RR has really invested a lot of effort into learning philosophy material.
So except if MoP was really versed into reading philosophers or philosophy handbook from 11 yo to 13 yo and had dedicatizd several hours a day to studying it, with an amount of at least 1k hours, I doubt he would have achieved anything like RR current level, even if their IQ were as far apart as 108 and 138.
RR knows stuff from Stalnaker, Dennett, Davidson, Quine, Nagel, Searle etc. and it implies dedication. RR is sometimes quite repetitive and maybe obnoxious but he has an incredible amount of energy and is very agressive (in a very positive way) to not take any proposition for granted with lots of skepticism. All that contributes to his general understanding. I hope he achieves one day a master in Philosophy and validates the effort he has put into the field. Even if I confess sometimes having been slightly irritated by some exchanges with him, RR deserves some sort of formal recognition (even if he doesn’t aim for it or ask to get it).
I am not sure if RR said once he was managing a small fitness center as his job, but if that’s the case, a master of philosophy diploma with his name in it would fit perfectly on the wall.
Bruno are you the robot from Terminator? are you really Arnold Schwarzenegger?
Knowledge and understanding are their own rewards. Diplomas are for ego, unless they help with your career.
“Searle”
Denies the functionality of networks in intelligence.
If machines cannot be intelligent because of the way they process information neither should humans be intelligent.
He came at a time before neuroscience has become a real field.
And when computers had less memory than a single brain cell.
Creationists would say Francis and crick were heroes for discovering DNA because it proves intelligent design and falsifies darwin.
Searle is the creationist of A.I. theory and Penrose is his prophet.
This why Bruno is autist. You don’t need artificial machine intelligence when you have an organic one.
Bruno is so clueless about real philosophy, he think philosophy and sophistry are the same thing while they are complete opposite. It’s exactly like the difference between real science and pseudo science.
No matter how time and energy you spend to memorize lies and evil dishonesty. It’s pointless in a rational view.
In a POSITIVE way…
Motherfuckar Therese!!!
Lying, manipulating after being completely lobotomized is “positive” in which planet, mister wrong planet???
Most of these ‘philosophers’ that Bruno named aren’t philosophers. Bruno has this love of analistic philosophy that basically only autists have.
you dont even know how to read how do you know how to type?
“select for”
NS is a metaphor for the process of organisms adapting to the environment. It does not predict what is better or worse or what traits will fixate. All it does is say is that fitness happens.
I do not know what specific technology will be in the future.
I do know it will be better than the old technology at accomplishing certain tasks/goals.
Is this a theory?
moore’s law is not a “Law” it is a trend but stupid people fixated on definitions do not understand what metaphors are.
I predict animals of the future will best survive because of fitness. Is this a law? Yes if we had all the data in the universe we could predict exactly what organisms would exist in the future.
So NS = both a law and an analytical truth.
Because: metaphors.
“It does not predict what is better or worse or what traits will fixate. All it does is say is that fitness happens.”
Exactly cat! Which is why it is a bad, or more specifically, an incomplete theory! Fodor’s point is actually quite simple. There is a discrepancy between ToNS and how NS actually operates.
Adaptionists like to use ToNS to try and make adaptionist theories when ToNS doesn’t have the predictive capabilities to do this.
It’s pedantic as hell. But I think it’s interesting that no one else has noticed it.
society is going to collapse in five years what technologies will be better?
If it doesn’t predict the trait, then it’s not a theory. The fact of the matter is, selection cannot be sensitive to counterfactual outcomes, so the question about free riding traits cannot be answered by adaptationist accounts. This means that the ToNS can’t predict or explain what traits in an organism are selected-for. When the selectionist attempts to say which is the traits make a creature fit in a certain ecology, that’s when the problem of selection for rears its head. NS isn’t a “law.” Laws are strict and exceptionless. In any case, the theory of natural selection is not a theory of causation.
please explain to me how evolution works without NS?
“Commenter Mug of Pee recently confessed that by the age of 13, he achieved the same level of philosophical understanding as RR achieved as an adult.”
I didn’t read every last one of Mug’s comments, but I think it was more like he said he understood propositional logic by 13. which isn’t really an impressive feat. Even then, Mugabe still doesn’t understand RR’s argument. I don’t know if Mugs is smarter than RR, but this wouldn’t really prove it.
^^^peepee^^^
…IT WAS MORE LIKE I HAD A LOW IQ… — MELO/PEEPEE
HAPAS ARE GROSS!
SMV LOWER THAN NEGRESSES.
Mugabe still doesn’t understand RR’s argument.
you mean like EVERYONE!
THERE’S NOTHING TO UNDERSTAND.
IF YOU THINK THERE’S SOMETHIN TO UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU THINK THERE’S SOMETHIN TO UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU THINK THERE’S SOMETHIN TO UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU THINK THERE’S SOMETHIN TO UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
MELO = PEEPEE = EXTREMELY SEXUALLY UN-ATTRACTIVE = SAD
It was a critique of a straw man version of evolutionary theory characterized by a brand of adaptationism so narrow that (if it were at all true) biologists could be charged with just making things up as they went along. But Fodor was not so much concerned with science as the extension of evolutionary ideas outside of biology. Motivated by his irritation with evolutionary psychology, a subdiscipline he believed was “Darwinism” at its worst, Fodor crowed that natural selection should be exiled from evolutionary theory altogether.
Fodor’s entire argument hinges upon a broad caricature of evolutionary theory which only seems to exist in his imagination.
Fodor’s response belies the fact that he is responding to a form of evolutionary theory that does not actually exist.
By refraining from engaging scientists over actual research he is free to ask absurd questions that only impress those who know as little about evolutionary theory as he does.
Here Fodor makes a few points that are already well-known and draws entirely the wrong conclusion.
MELO = PEEPEE
Every time someone other than me insults him, he accuses that person of being me because he’s too narcissistic to accept that MULTIPLE people think he’s a joke.
Lol, he thinks regurgitating a random article written by some dumbass who doesn’t understand Fodor’s argument is an effective rebuttal.
^^^LOL LOW IQ^^^
I HAVE EXPLAINED IT. BUT YOU WERE TOO EVIL AND STUPID TO UNNJUHSTAN IT.
IF YOU UNNUHSTAN FODOR’S ARGUMENT YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU UNNUHSTAN FODOR’S ARGUMENT YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU UNNUHSTAN FODOR’S ARGUMENT YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
IF YOU UNNUHSTAN FODOR’S ARGUMENT YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
Reception
Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini published a short summary of their book in New Scientist.[20]
The philosopher Mary Midgley wrote that What Darwin Got Wrong “strikes an outsider as an overdue and valuable onslaught on neo-Darwinist simplicities”.[21] The journalist Oliver Burkeman wrote an article entitled “Why everything you’ve been told about evolution is wrong” in The Guardian[22] but concludes “It would be jawdroppingly surprising, to say the least, were Fodor to be right. A safer, if mealy-mouthed, conclusion to draw is that his work acts as an important warning to those of us who think we understand natural selection”.
The book received positive reviews from linguists Noam Chomsky and Norbert Hornstein, professor of evolutionary genetics Gabriel Dover, professor of cell biology and anatomy Stuart Newman, Philip Ball (The Sunday Times), and Ray Olson (Booklist).[23]
The book also received a positive review from intelligent-design proponent William Dembski.[24]
The philosophers Michael Ruse,[25][26] Philip Kitcher (writing with philosopher of mind Ned Block)[27] and Massimo Pigliucci[28] have written reviews critical of the book.
Pigliucci criticises the first part of the book for claiming that ‘Darwinism’ “put[s] far too much emphasis on external causes of biological change, namely natural selection, and has ignored internal mechanisms”, whilst failing to acknowledge that biology has long addressed such internal mechanisms, with Darwin himself “explicitly referring his readers to ‘the laws of correlation of growth’ – that is, to the fact that the internal structure of living organisms imposes limits and direction to evolution”. He criticises the second part of the book for raising correlated traits as a new issue when “Biologists have long known about the problem” and have dealt with it:
This is why hypotheses about natural selection are usually tested by means of functional analyses rooted in physiology, genetics and developmental biology, and why observations of selection in the field are whenever possible coupled with manipulative experiments that make it possible to distinguish between, say, flies and ‘dark spots moving in front of your tongue’ kinds of objects.[28]
Pigliucci observes that the authors argue “how on earth could natural selection be specifically for capturing flies? How can biologists exclude the counterfactual possibility that frogs evolved to catch dark spots dancing in front of them which happen to resemble flies, instead of catching flies per se?”[28] However Pigliucci argues that biologists determine which traits are being selected for via functional analyses rooted in biology, physiology and development biology, along with observational evidence. Furthermore, Pigliucci argues that Fodor and Piatelli-Palmarini’s discussion of the intensionality problem is easily solved by distinguishing between select of and select for:
In the case of the frogs, we can say that there is selection for capturing flies, but as a byproduct, there is also selection of the propensity to catch whatever small dark objects come within the frog’s field of view which look sufficiently like flies. Incidentally, this difference is why, contrary to popular belief, natural selection is not an optimizing process – why it makes mistakes and is inefficient, yielding whatever outcome is good enough for survival and reproduction.[28]
In a rejoinder to the authors, Kitcher and Block argued that the authors were demanding a form of mechanism that would distinguish between adaptive traits and those correlated with it, yet this is a standard that no one else had ever required in evolutionary thinking. Kitcher and Block argue that the distinction between adaptive traits and free-riders is done by causation itself; in the case of coloured moths, a dark colour promotes reproductive success, with no further mechanism required to explain this. Block and Kitcher suggest that the authors mistakenly believe that there can be no “theory” of natural selection without this supposed mechanism, yet in the view of Block and Kitcher, no-one ever believed such a mechanism existed and thus this argument is irrelevant since scientists are able to determine how traits contribute to reproductive success in organisms (which is what natural selection is all about) regardless of whether or not a “theory” exists in the sense that Fodor and Piatelli-Palmarini understand it.[29]
In a talk delivered at the University of California Santa Barbara, Fodor responds to Kitcher and Block’s argument that the distinction between adaptive traits and free-riders is done by causation itself. Fodor suggests that such a position is “crazy” and offers an analogy regarding phone-ringers to demonstrate the problem with Kitcher and Block’s position. Incoming calls cause the ringer on a phone to ring. Fodor suggests that, if Kitcher and Block are correct, then this would work because if incoming calls didn’t cause the ringer to ring, then the ringer wouldn’t be a ringer. Being a “ringer” and being “caused to ring by incoming calls” are inter-defined. Therefore, there doesn’t need to be a mechanism that causes the ringer to ring in response to incoming calls – the job is done “by causation itself.” Fodor suggests that this position is simply untenable because although it is true that a ringer is something that rings for incoming calls, it doesn’t follow that there doesn’t need to be a theory, mechanism, or explanation that describes how it is that some thing that is sensitive to an incoming call is also a cause of ringing.[30]
Ruse makes the following suggestion for the motivation for the book:
At the beginning of their book, they proudly claim to be atheists. Perhaps so. But my suspicion is that, like those scorned Christians, Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini just cannot stomach the idea that humans might just be organisms, no better than the rest of the living world. We have to be special, superior to other denizens of Planet Earth. Christians are open in their beliefs that humans are special and explaining them lies beyond the scope of science. I just wish that our authors were a little more open that this is their view too.[25]
The evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne describes this book as “a profoundly misguided critique of natural selection”[31] and “as biologically uninformed as it is strident”.[32] Coyne argued that while Fodor and Piatelli-Palmarini may claim that there is no way to tell whether or a trait was selected for or was merely a correlate, in reality biologists have different ways of determining which is the case. Coyne further gives the famous peppered moth as a classic example of biologists being able to conduct tests and studies to confirm it was the moth’s colour that was the trait being selected.
The authors respond that the position Coyne ascribes to them is “preposterous”, stating that they do not endorse the view that when traits are coextensive, there is no way to tell which of them is a cause of fitness, or that science cannot determine which trait is selected for and which is merely correlated.[33] Fodor argues that while he has often been accused of believing that there is no fact of the matter about the causes of fitness or that determining the cause of fitness is epistemologically inaccessible, he does not believe either of these things and that his argument would be useless if he did, as his criticism of natural selection is that it does not provide a mechanism to allow one to determine the cause of fitness, which only makes sense if there was a difference between fitness and non-fitness producing traits and if knowledge of such a thing was epistemologically accessible to humans.[34] The authors thus argue that their issue with the theory of natural selection is that while there is a fact of the matter about what traits are selected for and that such facts are accessible via empirical inquiry, they maintain that the theory of natural selection does not offer a means by which to determine these facts.[35] In a discussion with Sober, Fodor argued that he and Piattelli-Palmarini accept that there is a matter of fact about what is selected for (for example, he agrees that it is the heart’s pumping of blood rather than its making thumping noises that increases an organism’s relative fitness) rather they deny that the theory of natural selection is capable of demonstrating which traits are selected for;[36] Fodor argued that the theory of natural selection is not generating these explanations but rather it is ancillary theories doing this, as the theory of natural selection does not specify which traits will be selected for, rather these are provided by other theories such as experimental biology and accumulated knowledge about how the natural world functions.[37]
In a review in Science Douglas J. Futuyma concluded:
Because they are prominent in their own fields, some readers may suppose that they are authorities on evolution who have written a profound and important book. They aren’t, and it isn’t.[38]
Peter Godfrey-Smith also reviewed the book negatively, arguing that the authors, while criticising the idea that natural selection was an agent, seemed to be making the same mistake; Godfrey-Smith argues that the authors demand to know how natural selection can distinguish between traits if it has no agency (hence their demand for laws), despite the fact that if a trait is causing reproductive success, then it is being selected for. Thus Godfrey-Smith argues there is no need for laws because selection-for is determined by contribution to reproductive success. Furthermore, experimental evidence can determine whether or not a trait contributes to reproductive success or if it is merely a free-rider.[39]
In response to Godfrey-Smith’s criticism, the authors suggest that he has reduced the theory of natural selection to a definitional truth when it is supposed to be an explanatory theory. The authors offer the following reply:
The theory of natural selection claims that a trait’s having been selected for causing reproductive success explains why a creature has it. But then it can’t also claim that ‘in a sense that matters’ ‘a trait was selected for’ means that it is a cause of reproductive success. For, if it did mean that, then the theory of natural selection would reduce to a trait’s being a cause of reproductive success explains its being a cause of reproductive success which explains nothing (and isn’t true)….Psychologists who hoped to defend the ‘law of effect’ by saying that it is true by definition, that reinforcement alters response strength, made much the same mistake that Godfrey-Smith does.[40]
Evan Thompson points out that the empirical argument in the book does not complement the conceptual argument in the book. He points out that Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini suggest that natural selection plays a minor role in evolution (in their words “We think of natural selection as tuning the piano, not as composing the melodies”); they also believe that natural selection is impossible. Thompson argues that it makes no sense for Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini to argue that other causal factors are more important in evolution than natural selection if they also believe that natural selection is impossible for logical or conceptual reasons.[41]
Adam Rutherford also reviewed the book negatively in The Guardian.[42]
@Fodor
NS = impossible because of conceptual reasons?
cannot predict “new” traits?
dude fitness happens, deal with it.
I cannot predict what I will say next or anyone else.
no one has language because language is not a “theory”?
no new predictions of future language. snarf
lmfao
Mugabe,
Most of those misunderstandings are taken care of in Replies to our Critics. The “tuning the piano” quote is taken out of context. If you were to check the book, you’d see the section is titled “Natural selection is real, of course (when properly construed)”:
“Contrary to traditional opinion, it needs to be emphasized that natural selection among traits generated at random cannot by itself be the basic principle of evolution. Rather there must be strong, often decisive, endogenous constraints and hosts of regulations on the phenotypic options that exogenous selection operates on. We think of natural selection as tuning the piano, not as composing the melodies. That’s our story, and we think it’s the story that modern biology tells when it’s properly construed. We will stick to it throughout what follows”
What do you think the BEST critique of Fodor’s argument is?
AK,
Fodor never claimed that fitness doesn’t happen. Deal with it.
DISHONEST BLACK DWARF EUNUCH
“Contrary to traditional opinion LIE!, it needs to be emphasized NO IT DOES NOT YOU LYING MORON! that natural selection among traits generated at random cannot by itself be the basic principle of evolution NO ONE EVER CLAIMED OTHERWISE YOU HOLOCAUST JUSTIFYING FAT [DELETED BY PEEPEE] MORON. Rather there must be strong, often decisive, endogenous constraints DUH! AUTO-GAS! and hosts of regulations on the phenotypic options that exogenous selection operates on. We think of natural selection as tuning the piano, not as composing the melodies. That’s our story, and we think it’s the story that modern biology tells when it’s properly construed YOU MEAN LIKE IT’S ALWAYS CONSTRUED EXCEPT BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND RETARD “PHILOSOPHERS” AND RETARD “PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSORS”?. We will stick to it throughout what follows”
What do you think the BEST critique of Fodor’s argument is? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BEST ARGUMENT AGAINST A NON-ARGUMENT IS?
AK,
Fodor never claimed that fitness doesn’t happen. Deal with it. BONOBOS ARE BETTER THAN YOU.
^^^DISHONEST BLACK DWARF EUNUCH^^^
rr
NS = fitness
you dumbass cannot explain evolution without NS
sadly…
So basically “tuning the piano” means what natural selection is actually about, and what Fodor is saying is that NS doesn’t decide what traits are generated. Like I said awhile ago, but you dismissed.
Thanks.
(This is evidence of the difference between being intelligent and being well-read).
And NS doesn’t choose the environment either (obviously).
Calm down and have a beer. You didn’t say anything.
“you dumbass cannot explain evolution without NS”
What’s the argument for this claim?
an organism that reproduces before dying is fit.
an organism that dies before reproducing is not fit.
it is selected out of the tree of life necessarily because it passed nothing on. regardless if it was good better or superior.
it is called a darwin award.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards
Just because this predicts nothing does not mean it does not happen. all it predicts is that change happens under pressure. we see this in the fossil records.
call it an analytical truth and not a theory but that just is what happens and you have no other explanation for evolution.
did you know gravity is a theory with no explanation?
it makes predictions (things fall down) but we don’t know why?
“what traits are generated”
No one has EVER made that claim—selection isn’t about GENERATING traits, it’s about, supposedly, which traits are selected-for in virtue of their contributions to fitness, but as I have described Fodor’s argument, how it is conceptualized it just is not possible to use the ToNS to show which was selected-for. I didn’t “dismiss” anything, and I’ve said that as much over the years. The fact of the matter is, Fodor’s argument is sound and “natural selection” isn’t a mechanism. You haven’t identified an error in Fodor’s argument and most if not all critiques of Fodor’s argument also miss his point. What I said above about trait prediction is true.
Prior to performing the manipulation of traits (experimenting), how does the ToNS predict which trait is fitness-enhancing when the traits are correlated?
T moving to fixation is just as consistent with the ToNS as T’ moving to fixation. Therefore the ToNS doesn’t explain which trait moves to fixation and so if it doesn’t explain it then it doesn’t predict it. It’s that simple,
Calm down and have a beer. I didn’t say anything.
EXACTLY!
SAD!
evolution by natural selection operates in/on a space of possible organisms and possible transitions between organisms which it does NOT determine. why is the space what it is? NO ONE KNOWS! IT’S WAY TOO FUCKING COMPLICATED A PROBLEM.
EVERYONE KNOWS THIS!
EXCEPT DUMBASS ANAL PHILOSOPHERS.
And it’s not just Fodor who rejects natural selection as a mechanism—Robert Skipper and Roberta Millstein in “Thinking about evolutionary mechanisms: natural selection” and Joyce Havstad “Problems for Natural Selection as a Mechanism” have as well. The arguments against natural selection as a mechanism are lethal.
BUT THE SPACE CAN BE DEFINED ABSTRACTLY AS THE IMAGE OF A FUNCTION FROM DNA TO PHENOTYPE.
THE CHEMICAL BASIS OF HEREDITY WAS NOT KNOWN IN DARWIN’S DAY. OR MENDEL’S. OR FISHER’S…UNTIL WATSON AND CRICK IN 1955 IIRC.
THIS FUNCTION CANNOT BE CALCULATED. AND PROBABLY NEVER CAN BE.
DUH!
WHERE IS SANTO?
THE DESCENDANTS OF WAR CRIMINALS NEED TO BE HEARD!
NO HUMAN BEING CAN ACTUALLY BE AS DUMB AS RR.
CHEERS TO RR FOR FOOLING US.
IT’S NOT JUST ONE MENTALLY RETARDED ANAL PSEUDO-PHILOSOPHER.
IT’S THREE!
Robert Skipper ANAL “PHILOSOPHER” and Roberta Millstein PROFESSOR OF ANAL & RETARDATION STUDIES AND [REDACTED BY PEEPEE]…
“Just because this predicts nothing does not mean it does not happen.”
Fodor never said this. So you admit that natural selection doesn’t predict which trait will come to fixation?
Gravity is the cause of falling bodies.
“Just because this predicts nothing does not mean it does not happen.”
They never said that we can’t explain what’s selected-for, the theory cannot predict it so it doesn’t explain trait fixation.
“call it an analytical truth and not a theory”
It’s supposed to be an explanatory theory.
the prettiest bond girl != grace jones sadly.
BISHOP BERKELEY!
BISHOP BERKELEY!
BISHOP BERKELEY!
Rather, ToNS doesn’t generate new species, nor does it generate traits (what Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini mean by “generated at random” is phenotypic changes). The neo-Darwinian states that trait ontogeny is random. That’s false. And some mutations are even directed, as new developments have shown. The fact of the matter is, WE (humans) can know what was selected-for, but the theory can’t—the distinction between the cause and correlation is invisible to the so-called mechanism.
So lurker I have provided 2 versions of Fodor’s argument—pick one and explain which premise is false and why. If two traits are correlated how does the theory distinguish the trait that cause fitness from the trait that doesn’t?
“Gravity is the cause of falling bodies.”
but why stupid rr
that is not an explanation.
we have no GUT of gravity just hypothetical models not proven.
CUT YOUR HAIR!
Rather, ToNS doesn’t generate new species, nor does it generate traits (what Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini mean by “generated at random” is phenotypic changes). The neo-Darwinian states that trait ontogeny is random. That’s false. And some mutations are even directed, as new developments have shown. The fact of the matter is, WE (humans) can know what was selected-for, but the theory can’t—the distinction between the cause and correlation is invisible to the so-called mechanism.
^^^CUT YOUR HAIR!^^^
“They never said that we can’t explain what’s selected-for, the theory cannot predict it so it doesn’t explain trait fixation.”
NS selects-out organisms that are not fit.
select-for is not NS
that is some BS term made up by Fodor or whoever.
natural means no god or magic did the selecting out but only the physics in the universe.
“No one has EVER made that claim—selection isn’t about GENERATING traits, it’s about, supposedly, which traits are selected-for in virtue of their contributions to fitness, but as I have described Fodor’s argument, how it is conceptualized it just is not possible to use the ToNS to show which was selected-for. I didn’t “dismiss” anything, and I’ve said that as much over the years. The fact of the matter is, Fodor’s argument is sound and “natural selection” isn’t a mechanism. You haven’t identified an error in Fodor’s argument and most if not all critiques of Fodor’s argument also miss his point. What I said above about trait prediction is true.
Prior to performing the manipulation of traits (experimenting), how does the ToNS predict which trait is fitness-enhancing when the traits are correlated?”
Traits are heritable. Organisms live and die according to physical laws which are deterministic, and hence if traits are heritable (passed on over time from one organism to their offspring), only organisms that lived would pass on traits. Hence, those traits would offer fitness for the physical world.
By definition, deterministic laws cannot create anything, they can only run a specific starting state to its course. So new traits can only be physically generated from quantum uncertainty (indeterminism), or the inherent complexity in our universe and the organism-environment interaction (complex determinism). Both are not components in the process of natural selection.
ToNS is not supposed to decide what new traits exist, it is simply the application of deterministic laws to heritability in the physical world. Fodor’s argument is certainly not sound because he assumes agency for what is explicitly described as mindless, or because he assumes activity for something that is described as passive.
It could be correct that NS is not the primary driver of evolution, but that doesn’t mean that NS is false or not a mechanism, because that would assume that heritability and deterministic physical laws are false (which they are obviously not). No matter how complicated the trait-environment interaction is or development is, because traits are inherited through “developmental systems” that follow deterministic physical laws, natural selection must be a mechanism (the sieve example).
The ToNS and theory of gravity are in no way similar. ToNS is purported to be a causal mechanism, one that causally explains longterm population change.
“NS selects-out organisms that are not fit.
select-for is not NS
that is some BS term made up by Fodor or whoever.”
“Selects-out” (against) is intensional too, just like “select-for.” It’s NOT “some BS made up term.”
“Selection-for specifies the particular phenotypic attribute and corresponding component of the genotype (DNA) that is responsible for the success of the selected individual.” – Ernst Mayr
You don’t understand Fodor’s argument either.
“only organisms that lived would pass on traits”
Vacuous.
“ToNS is not supposed to decide what new traits exist”
It’s posited as the mechanism for trait fixation and the generation of new species.
“Fodor’s argument is certainly not sound because he assumes agency for what is explicitly described as mindless, or because he assumes activity for something that is described as passive.”
What are you talking about. Fodor rejects intentionality/intensionality and also laws of selection.
“that doesn’t mean that NS is false or not a mechanism”
Which premise in the argument is false and why?
“natural selection must be a mechanism (the sieve example).”
Out of everything you just wrote, what refutes a specific premise in Fodor’s argument? How is it a mechanism if it can’t ground counterfactuals that distinguish selection of from selection for? Sorting for is an intensional process. An agent would account for the intensionality of sorting for, and laws of selection about the relative fitness of phenotypes would too. But since there is no agent nor any laws, ToNS isn’t a mechanism. It is claimed that Darwin has discovered the mechanism of trait fixation, and he absolutely did not because Fodor’s argument is sound.
“Prior to performing the manipulation of traits (experimenting), how does the ToNS predict which trait is fitness-enhancing when the traits are correlated?”
“T moving to fixation is just as consistent with the ToNS as T’ moving to fixation. Therefore the ToNS doesn’t explain which trait moves to fixation and so if it doesn’t explain it then it doesn’t predict it.”
These are critical points, too. They are why natural selection can’t be a mechanism.
“natural selection can’t be a mechanism.”
so what is the mechanism? why do traits fixate?
we have no mechanism for gravity either not one compatible with QM.
Are you going to admit that “select-for” isn’t a term that Fodor just “made up”? The fact of the matter is, “natural selection” can’t be the mechanism since it’s not sensitive to counterfactual outcomes. Laws support counterfactuals, but the ToNS as formulated doesn’t. But there aren’t any laws of relative fitness, so the ToNS can’t support counterfactuals so the ToNS isn’t a mechanism. It’s that simple.
natural means no miracles were involved.
so what is the mechanism of evolution rr?
RR,
There are two main problems I can see with Fodor’s argument.
1. There are no other viable or possible mechanisms for trait fixation besides natural selection, because NS is a trial-and-error process of weeding out that which doesn’t survive, leaving only that which does. It is the only way selection can happen “by accident” without using intentionality. This is not an argument from ignorance, but because NS is a tautology: That which survives is fit, and that which is fit is able to survive.
NS is always assumed to have outside factors that determine what traits are most fit (the particular environmental constraints, the physical laws of the universe) as well as what traits are available (genetic mutations or abiogenesis itself which is not part of natural selection).
2. NS does not declare that the particular direction of evolution or trait fixation is the “best”, so it does not need to “select-for” anything but whatever survives. It does not logically follow that evolution couldn’t have went a different way, but only that whatever way it does go must be fit.
There are other established mechanisms of evolution like for example drift. Natural selection just isn’t it.
selection = not a mechanism
so not Natural(selection)
so N(?)
drift is a mechanism
So Natural(drift)
N(d)
evolution by the process of natural drift?
“There are other established mechanisms of evolution like for example drift. Natural selection just isn’t it.”
Drift can explain trait fixation and evolution, but it doesn’t explain why organisms are adapted to their environment. NS shows why they are adapted/fit, drift can only explain why they are different.
Drift explains why populations differ according to environment, but it doesn’t explain why they are even capable of surviving one environment. It doesn’t explain why if you threw an organism into an environment it couldn’t survive in, it would die out. NS explains why organisms are always found in environments they are fit in.
All the assumptions that make drift viable would make NS viable. Drift is just NS minus an explanation of adaptation to environment, so it is a cop-out unless you believe every organism is found being born in every environment in equal amounts and die after birth so no adaptation of traits is apparent (obviously false as there are no dolphins being born in earth’s stratosphere or sharks being born inside car dealerships). Organisms are almost always born in environments they are adapted to, and genetic drift does not explain that, while NS does.
If a population gets stranded in a specific place it cannot survive (founder effect) it dies off and there is no evolution. Drift does not explain this, NS does. Drift explains the differences according to the founder effect, but not adaptability.
1. Yea it is a tautology, just like survival of the fittest (those that are fit survive and those that survive are fit). Merely stating that since there are no other possible mechanisms for trait fixation other than NS so NS has to be that mechanism in no way, share, or form, refutes the conclusion of Fodor’s argument.
2. I provided a quote from Ernst Mayr—one of the originators of the Modern Synthesis—who talked about what selection-for refers to. It is that assumption that neo-Darwinists hold to and it’s that assumption that Fodor has summarily dismantled.
olivia wilde’s ex-husband, and italian aristocrat, made a movie about heidegger.
the whole movie! it’s free!
there was also a movie made about donald davidson and jerry fodor.
only the trailer available!
“environmental pressures”
something rr doesn’t understand.
if organisms can’t survive it because the pressures were too great on it.
if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
To say NS is not a mechanism is tantamount to saying what specific organisms proliferate has nothing to do with adaptation. It would be saying that change only occurs randomly (which is what genetic drift is since it has no direction to it besides change). If adaptation is possible then it can only happen through NS or intelligent design.
Clearly genes are inherited and phenotypes are inherited so there is a mechanism for adaptation.
To claim there are no laws of selection because different environments require fitness in different ways is not a good argument against NS. it would be like claiming there is no law of gravity because we can imagine a different universe with different physical laws or gravitational speeds. So what?
Or that environments are not consistent long enough to adapt to… Is it not the case that there is some consistency to environments, and to the universe? Then why does it matter that if you change the environment, the definition of fitness changes?
No part of NS requires fitness to be equivalent for all environments. In fact that wouldn’t even make sense given the whole point is to explain why different species are suited to specific niches and environments. Furthermore, the commonality of fitness between all environments is NS itself. Given heritability from parents only those with the traits to survive and adapt to their specific environment will proliferate.
“To say NS is not a mechanism is tantamount to saying what specific organisms proliferate has nothing to do with adaptation”
Yea that’s kind of the point. It’s an argument against adaptationism.
What are the hallmarks of adaptation? What test can establish which traits are adaptations?
No mechanism can do what the ToNS claims selection for does.
“To claim there are no laws of selection because different environments require fitness in different ways is not a good argument against NS.”
Laws are needed to predict which traits will move to fixation. If you name a law of selection that can predict which trait will win a trait competition then you have refuted the argument.
“Given heritability from parents only those with the traits to survive and adapt to their specific environment will proliferate.”
How does it explain the trait if it doesn’t predict it? Prior to performing the manipulation of traits (experimenting), how does the ToNS predict which trait is fitness-enhancing when the traits are correlated?
NS is just a paraphrase of “directional change”, “non-random change”. if it’s not drift, it’s NS by definition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_selection
but rr and fodor are dishonest and mentally retarded so they get hung up on words.
“Laws are needed to predict which traits will move to fixation. If you name a law of selection that can predict which trait will win a trait competition then you have refuted the argument.”
Here’s a law: If you are not able to convert some form of substance into energy for your body, you will die due to entropy/deterioration from the environment. Therefore, any organism that isn’t able to acquire resources or convert resources into energy will never exist.
Or if you are an land animal that requires regular intake of oxygen and are forced underwater with no oxygen take for an extended period of time, you will die.
If you want an equation that could answer what traits are preferred for every environment, or every physical contingency (like the requirement of energy, ability to resist entropy, etc.) you’d have to have to have some sort of master equation that could factor in all those possibilities (as Mugabe mentioned somewhere). You’d be the best physicist/biologist that ever existed.
Right now the best law/equation is “survival (and hence proliferation) of the fittest”, which is tautologically true for any consistent/deterministic system of laws AFAIK, because laws are what is “adapted” to, and time is needed to adapt, and there needs to be a consistent “something” that is adapting.
@Lurker
Fundamentally it is all about physics(nature) no miracles.
Cells reproduce because of thermodynamics (entropy).
but rr will never see this.
ecology is an open system from the sun giving energy for the biome to function. It was believed that everything decays so entropy denies life can happen. but stability is the feedback between energy and structure.
you had a good example of fitness. mine is: whales do not live in the Nevada desert. why? because of thermodynamics. (heat pressures)
That’s not the kind of “law” that Fodor is looking for—they must be ceteris paribus laws which predict which trait will win a trait competition in a given ecology. Try again. No mechanism exists that moves T to fixation which generalizes over environmental and generic contexts.
“All else being equal, the probability that a t1 wins a competition with a t2 in ecological situation E is p” is one example of the type of law of relative fitness he is looking for.
“That’s not the kind of “law” that Fodor is looking for—they must be ceteris paribus laws which predict which trait will win a trait competition in a given ecology. Try again. No mechanism exists that moves T to fixation which generalizes over environmental and generic contexts.”
My god, I literally just gave you two examples for given ecologies. Organisms that can utilize resources for energy vs. ones that can’t. Organisms that require breathing air vs. organisms that utilize the oxygen in water in an underwater ecology.
“All else being equal, the probability that a t1 wins a competition with a t2 in ecological situation E is p” is one example of the type of law of relative fitness he is looking for.”
All else being equal, the probability that a dog with a stomach that uses stomach acid to digest food (as it does normally) wins in a competition with a dog that has a stomach with a release valve that randomly releases acid into its body that dissolves its other organs is near 1.
Why is it that you are unable to take something someone says to the logical conclusion (infer) and only take everything at face value? Low IQ?
“Why is it that you are unable to take something someone says to the logical conclusion (infer) and only take everything at face value? Low IQ?”
That’s just how Philosophers are. You must be very careful with your words, or they’ll misinterpret your point and start going off on random tangents. Trust me, they all do it.
“All else being equal, the probability that a dog with a stomach that uses stomach acid to digest food (as it does normally) wins in a competition with a dog that has a stomach with a release valve that randomly releases acid into its body that dissolves its other organs is near 1.”
Yeah, but that’s not included in ToNS. That said, there was an article I read a while ago that attempted to extend ToNS into a bonafide theory in the way that Fodor demands. If I remember, I’ll read through it and post my summarization.
…No mechanism exists that moves T to fixation which generalizes over environmental and generic contexts…
not the same T. obviously. this is why social darwinism is so stupid not just evil. what was less fit so many generations ago may today be more fit and vice versa and so many generations in the future.
Those aren’t counterfactual supporting generalizations that link traits with specific environments. Why is it that you are unable to pick a premise of Fodor’s argument, state which is false and why? Why is it that you can’t provide counterfactual supporting generalizations they link traits with environments? That is, the law must be: universal, not context-dependent, and an ex ante specifiable ceteris paribus generalization.
But trait fixation is incredibly context-dependent, so there aren’t any laws of relative fitness. So natural selection can’t be the mechanism that moves traits to fixation. That simple.
Most of so called philosophers from the past and today are not real philosophers but sophists. Philosophy is not a scrabble game. Any “thinker” who give excessive importance to words have an agenda and it’s not the philosophical praxis. It’s typical from sophisticated pseudo philosophy, specially from left wing inclination, give enormous importance to the word but this wordcare is sheer theatrical. In humanities, we are literally trained to choice difficult or rare words to “enrich” our works (when i graduated on it) or to filll the intrinsic emptyness of most of them. So yes everyone who use words should be careful in their use. But too much care is a signal of clever silliness.
That is, the law must be: universal, not context-dependent, and an ex ante specifiable ceteris paribus generalization.
But trait fixation is incredibly context-dependent, so there aren’t any laws of relative fitness. So natural selection can’t be the mechanism FALSE. THIS DOES NOT FOLLOW. that moves traits to fixation. That simple. YOU ARE A PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST AND A TIRESOME MORON.
^^^ALL TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO ToNS^^^
“natural selection can’t be the mechanism that moves traits to fixation.”
So?
NS is about survival first. no one said it was about traits?
in an environment, you survive via pressures or you don’t.
you eat, you breed and you evolve. That’s it, that is what NS is nothing else.
That is, the law FALSE! must be: universal, not context-dependent, and an ex ante specifiable ceteris paribus generalization. FALSE!
it has been explained to rr multiple times why he is “not even wrong”, but he doesn’t care because stupid and dishonest.
fodor: omg. NS is not a theory or a law the way i use the word “theory”. i’m an anal philosophy genius because muh conceptual muh argument about the meaning of words i myself define and define differently from the way everyone else does but then claim i didn’t. genius.
there are no such things as isolated traits.
all there is, is thermodynamic “processes”.
IF YOU “UNDERSTAND FODOR’S ARGUMENT” YOU HAVE A LOW IQ.
I
SADLY, PEEPEE IS ALOW iQ PHYSICALLY AND INTELLECTUALLY DISABLED NEGRESS AND A PSYCHPATH.
Wow such subtlety.
Mug is smarter than RR but thats not impressive. im smarter than both.
No exist such think being less smarter than a liar.
Real intelligence is little related with cleverness. It’s actually opposite. Exactly like pseudo Science and Philosophy if compared with real ones. Foedor arguments are pointless. It’s like finding clever some arguments of a flat earther. But it is not even the case because a clever flat earther still can use some honesty to construct his arguments while in this case and similar ones is all about sophistry or clever dishonesty.
This blog is and all has been pure evil because pp bitch. It’s all about popularity and make money with it.
If you only knew how little money this blog makes you would not say that
You should just have two separate blogs. One for the IQ stuff and the other for Horror movie reviews. The latter would probably make you decent money. You could even get AI to write simple articles. WPX gave me two sites for like $300 a year.
Mugabe is a lot smarter than RR. I said he lacked common sense and social intelligence but his IQ is closer to 160 than to 132. All childhood IQ tests should be burned on a stake. Look at Bruno his IQ is close to 170 and he has half his brain missing. You can be have deficitis in certain cognitive processes and have a massive g which puppy doesn’t grasp.
Anyway RR is a total idiot and honestly I think 108 is waaay to high for him. He has zero intuition and thinks word games are philosophy. He has zero common sense. To this day he says blacks have less T than east asians. What a retard.
The math worked better with 132 vs 108.
Even Bruno would not say Bruno has an IQ of 170. That’s Marsha level.
Pumpkin, not speaking about any number nor ranking, I have a different definition of « g ». For me, it’s only deducing and inducing capacity. In every society, that will correlate more than less with other success variables.
But it doesn’t entail everything that may concur to success. Sight, audition, empathy, imagination, reflex etc. wont be part of my definition. I have an extreme powerful sight but I wouldn’t think someone with myopia would be downgraded by this sheer matter.
Jensen is just in the middle because he defines it as what is common in every mental activity but I strongly suppose it would be very close to « inducing and deducing » in fact.
So for example you’re downgrading Ganzir estimate from his social test scores is perfectly logical by your definition but not by mine. If you had him around 150, he would stay there by my book.
You would need to know how much your test correlates with « g » and my guess is not much. It may even be a negative correlation.
Btw I sense he may have been annoyed by this downgrade because he became rarer after your re-diagnosis … Hope this message helps 😉
Someone like LionofBLog is on the other extreme as he thinks intelligence can be a hindrance above a certain threshold (I don’t believe that, the more the better).
An example is I have been very good at predicting people behaviour both in professional (like recruitment) and personal level. But it’s an indirect application of deducing/inducing and not a skill in itself (like reading faces).
But that would be an interesting subject of philosophy and cognitive sciences to check, starting with Jensen construct, what g correlates with and see if it can validate your struggle-for-life-winner definition.
Bruno shut the fuck up and stop saying you have great social intelligence based on the same recruitment story you’ve wheeled out 100 times on this blog. You looked at their cvs and made a decision. Thats not advanced social thinking. Its not even elementary social thinking. Based on your thoughts and comments I would say your social IQ is similar to the other autists. Considering you have autism that doesn’t surprise me.
You lack the intuition to tell people’s social intelligence just from reading their comments. You would literally need a quantitative test score of some sort to tell. Thats not a ‘skill’. Thats intuition.
It could be interesting to propose a poll to your readership.
Are all skills, who can be objectively measured, that contribute to success (including social, emotional etc) part of measuring intelligence as defined by g (IQ) ?
Or
Are those however objective skills part of measuring intelligence only as far as they correlate with g as measured by most IQ tests ?
I have no idea where the mainstream fall on this one to speak like Gottfredsob …
(g) > FSIQ
that is what I said
“It could be interesting to propose a poll to your readership.
Are all skills, who can be objectively measured, that contribute to success (including social, emotional etc) part of measuring intelligence as defined by g (IQ) ?
Or
Are those however objective skills part of measuring intelligence only as far as they correlate with g as measured by most IQ tests ?”
I would vote for the second option without any hesitation. Even pumpkin person the adherent of wide adaptive nonsense has denied the existence of “emotional intelligence”. I remember when you pointed out the ludicrousness of pumpkin persons estimate of michael jacksons intelligence.
It’s impossible to measure all cognitive abilities, but if we could, the average of all of them would correlate almost perfectly with psychometric g as defined by conventional tests.
It’s impossible to measure all cognitive abilities, but if we could, the average of all of them would correlate almost perfectly with psychometric g as defined by conventional tests.
—> the big difference is that the common factor is not necessarily the average. Knowing the average correlation is estimated to be 0,3 if I remember well.
And even if it were, as we can’t measure all abilities, for some of them the “g” factor will be extremely low (like the ability to rote learn where correlation with g is 0.1).
Then there is the other hurdle that all abilities don’t perfectly correlate with success in life as that category can’t be objectively measured. Croesus, Socrates, Dioegenes, Alexander the Great or Jesus have different scales for success.
That’s 2 set of reasons why I would also vote for a narrow tool of measurement.
Btw “g” is all the more powerful that such a narrow skill (deducing and inducing) correlated wich so much capacities and outcomes in life that it could lead someone into defining it (wrongly in my understanding) as the ability to succeed in life in any society at any time.
Your hypothesis would be probably true if everything – biological and social – had grown from intelligence and not the other way around.
That’s also a cool idea 😊
And even if it were, as we can’t measure all abilities, for some of them the “g” factor will be extremely low (like the ability to rote learn where correlation with g is 0.1).
But if only abilities that load on g (and group factors like verbal comprehension, spatial, musical, social, numerical, Gestalt etc) correlate, and group factors do not correlate with one another (independent of g), if you test enough group factors, they’ll quickly cancel themselves out, and the composite score will reflect simply g for the vast majority of biologically normal people. Thus g is a good proxy for overall brain power.
Then there is the other hurdle that all abilities don’t perfectly correlate with success in life as that category can’t be objectively measured. Croesus, Socrates, Dioegenes, Alexander the Great or Jesus have different scales for success.
Their life success can all be measured on a scale I’d call influence on which people like Michael Hart have ranked them:
http://arankingofthe100.blogspot.com/2011/09/michael-h-hart.html
And this scale would correlate moderately with psychometric g.
That’s 2 set of reasons why I would also vote for a narrow tool of measurement.
g is a narrow tool of measurement; I just predict it would correlate highly with a much a broader definition of intelligence: Adaptability
Youre such an idiot. How can you make assumptions that they would all cancel out? Just for mathematical aesthetic reasons?? We all know social intelligence is inversely related to math intelligence. Probably musical and motor skills as well. G would cover what Bruno said – induction and deduction.
100% false. Math talented people are MORE socially, musically and kinesthetically talented on average. The autistic math genius stereotype is the exception not the rule. Elon Musk may seem socially dumb compared to other billionaires, but he’s still socially smart compared to the AVERAGE American.
And uncorrelated variables ALWAYS cancel out given enough data. That’s called the law of averages.
“Math talented people are MORE socially, musically and kinesthetically talented on average.”
False. Even you are socially capable of noticing that.
“And uncorrelated variables ALWAYS cancel out given enough data. That’s called the law of averages.”
This is total garbage.
This is total garbage.
It’s not.
You ARE.
Pumpkin, to reformulate my point wich started with your revised estimation of Ganzir IQ, even if intelligence was the only common point to all human mental activities, and thus everything else would effectively cancelled out as you remarked :
1) some activites are so weakly g loaded that taking them into account along with other highly g loaded scores reduces considerably the g loadedness of your estimation, even if knowing the right coefficient would increase it. So as you said, as it is impossible to measure out all mental activities, it’s important to not add a poor g loaded score, even if, if the g was measured, it would reinforce the reliability of the test ;
2) then about the unicity of this common point, there is no reason why this factored intelligence would perfectly correlate with success – or adaptability to all possible worlds, times and places – because those are two different things. So then you would have to concept, adaptability being of a greater order (like there may be verbal and spatial intelligence too).
I understand your underlying theory of intelligence/adaptability as the common factor to all human activities that emerges from species adaptation to their evolving environments.
But even if It were true, it does not practically validate taking into account poor g loaded tasks for an actual intelligence estimation.
So starting with deducing and inducing gives a very powerful to discriminate into rankings that could add to an intelligence estimation. That’s why you won’t take sight or running speed except if you already had an extraordinary amount of measuring tools available.
That’s why I think Ganzir should be put back where it were in your estimation before 😂
NB : if you could do that ie scoring all mental activities and factoring what is common, it would either perfectly correlate with just inducing and reducing, wich is g, everything else would factor out, or it would correlate with something new, what you call adaptability, and that wouldn’t be intelligence as “g” by my book but an “a”.
It would destroy the hypothesis that intelligence is what is uniquely common to all mental activities and create a second order concept of adaptability.
Probably both would also correlate but it wouldn’t be linear for each activity. It may be possible as Philso said that for certain activities correlation would be opposite.
Then we could both be right each of us speaking about a different thing, your intelligence “upgraded” as adaptability versus the current acception.
Bruno, in support (I think) of what you are saying, some abilities seem to be negatively correlated, like inhibition and divergent thinking (though it’s probably more complicated than that). So, if g was omnipresent, the higher a specific ability, the higher the g and so the higher all abilities should be, to put it a bit simplistically.
Also, would you be interested in my interviewing you for my blog?
“inducing reducing”
It’s about tracking things in your head.
being aware of how things go together in different ways.
adaption has one goal: survival.
so chimps survive, they can track 30 preditors at once.
but they cannot program a computer or carve a statue.
(g) is about going inside your own head.
in – tell – i – gence
(thinking)
Puppy just take the L and lie down or something.
Bruno, can you respond with a yes or no, so I know you saw it?
You’re literally ignorant to T and what it does in the body and how it’s produced. You’ve never cited anything for your claim because your claim isn’t based on any evidence.
Google pictures of blacks. Google pictures of east asians. Compare. Thats my evidence.
Wow how compelling. Measure a physiological variable with photographs.
Exactly. Even children can do it except poor low IQ rr.
Sad. Can’t give any reference for his claim he’s been making for literally months.
Haha. I can read your mind RR. Even you know its true but you dont want to say it.
No Philo, it entailed many interviews. My performance in this task (a side job) was so high that I got a separate 500k bonus that had never been given to anyone (it depended on many metrics). I am quite proud of this one !
It’s not a matter of childhood vs adulthood. It’s a matter of the TRADITIONAL Wechsler including subtests that measured judgment and common sense, including the two subtests I administered to you. By contrast the SAT/GRE focuses on verbal and math.
By the way, I was like 6 when I took that test.
Childhood scores are stupid and totally arbitrary. You know it.
IQ is highly stable by 10
Post the study that says that
When I was 12 my IQ was 125.
but…
adult mental illness
“Post the study that says that”
LOL. Philo is so dumb he doesn’t even know when he contradicts himself.
LOL. [rr] is so dumb he doesn’t even know when he contradicts himself.
« Bruno, can you respond with a yes or no, so I know you saw it? »
Hello Vegan, I am a bit worried about that because I don’t want to give away more personal information than the one I ve been dropping through the years, see the comment where I explain why, and an interview that would not be personal is a bit an oxymoron.
So it’s a no.
But I am deeply appreciative you would be interested to know more about me or my ideas.
Sorry for not answering b4. It’s because I was hesitating because I like you.
I appreciate your not wanting to hurt my feeling. Don’t worry, I know you always mean well.
It’s ok but I think an interview can be personal without divulging personal info. I was thinking something the in-sight interviews, like the one Ganzir gave. Anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/26/dilbert-cartoon-dropped-by-us-newspapers-over-creators-racist-comments
LOL
Scott Adams got cancelled for telling people to stay away from blacks!
I will now buy a Dilbert cartoon book to support scott.
Look. We need to think about banning RR. Puppy already banned RR and then let him back but objectively RR is ruining this blog. 90% of the comments are a flame war between RR and certain immature people who keep feeding the troll.
PP will not ban him if he keeping make money for her. But would be interesting if WE stop to comment here.
Actually YOU are going to stop commenting here.
Banned
LOL the problem is RR not Santo
This blog has raised the audiatur et altera pars principle to the status of a farcical ersatz axiom. I dont debate RR for the exact same reason I don’t debate 5 year old children, down syndrome sufferers and the bonobos at the local zoological garden.
r u not indian lol
Cringe.
For Pumpkin’s stewardship, it’s not mistaking truth with justice, it’s more about liking lemonade
The blog in that post was a metonymy for the totality of the blog’s regular commentariat, not pumpkin person’s management policies. I am aware that pumpkin person has attained an emotional state somewhat reminiscent of your own nigh absolute ataraxia. It is highly improbable that he would ever ban RR, his babian source of amusement. My intent was not to disparage the ones like the Philosopher, pumpkin person, Mugabe and you who provide the valuable, albeit proletarian public service of tard wrangling. I lack the patience for it.
I know.
As for this lemon public service, besides justice & research wich are both very valuable ones, I like it. I also do that all time in real life. I learn so much from watching people and interacting as it doesn’t come naturally to me. And as I have never felt paced anywhere anytime, maybe it’s a second nature to me now.
Hope you stay around from times to times.
You anime and Bruno have pretty severe autism. As in, very obvious after 2 minutes of talking to you 3.
I looked through Saul Kripke’s ‘philosophy’ and concur with the commenter on Lion’s blog that its basically a kind of niche legal studies and not anything you would call ‘philosophy’.
Autistic people genuinely cannot see why anal philosophy isn’t philosophy. They look at the dictionary and think – greatest philosophical work since Wittgenstein. LOL.
Lol, you do realize Santo has autism, right?
Like, autism isn’t the same thing as being weird. That is such an overly reductive view.
You’re basically redefining a word and then saying anything that doesn’t fall within that arbitrary definition cannot be autism. So, you’re like RR, but immensely dumber.
as it stands and probably will for a few years i am the only non-autistic person on this blog!
not much of an accomplishment since there are only like fifteen people who have ever commented here.
“Santo has autism”
where did he say that about himself?
yes pill come up with his own criteria because of schizotypal PD (inability to understand human relationships)
I’m pretty sure he said he was autistic waayyyyyy back in the day when I first came to the blog. We talked about our diagnoses and how we dealt with them or something. But maybe I’m mistaken.
No I remember. Someone accused him of being autistic and he wondered whether he might be. But just reading his comments I’m pretty sure hes not autistic.
Well you wouldn’t be able to see it if it were there.
Anime you don’t even know what schizotypal is. Its completely different from autism. Almost the opposite. People like me find it hard to form relationships but not because were socially blind. More out of paranoia.
No Anime is correct. A huge meta-analysis found schizoptypals have Theory of Mind impairments:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32461089/#:~:text=Schizotypy%20is%20a%20multi%2Ddimensional,and%20ToM%20provided%20inconsistent%20findings.
The paper said a small relationship with negative TOM. Ok fine whatever, still way better than anime.
“Schizotypy scores were negatively associated with both reasoning (d = -0.24, CI = -0.11-0.38) and decoding (d = -0.21, CI = -0.09-0.32) aspects of ToM.”
This is why your psychiatrists all thought you had autism and why you were socially behind your peers growing up. The psychology part of your brain is missing.
Well, we’d know for sure if Pumpkin hadn’t banned him for whatever reason.
First of all the correlation is very low so most schizotypal people won’t have TOM problems. Second I personally have no problems reading minds. Third, you are a dumbass.
Small correlations add up at the extremes. If you’re schizotypal you’re likely a couple SD above the mean in schizoptypal traits.
You just made that up. Arguably I’m less schizo than most schizotypal people.
That’s like being less short than most dwarfs. Nothing to brag about, but then the part of your brain that knows what to brag about is missing.
LOL youre reasoning is so bad. Look at the numbers. The correlation just isn’t there. Most schizotypals don’t have TOM problems and even less so, people who are not full on schizo like myself. Get real.
my reasoning is great, you just can’t take the L like a man.
Mabey pills ToM is great but he cannot apply it.
He totally forgot that the wiki says he has trouble with relationships. (How his actions affect people and how other people affect other people)
In autism, these people do not realize other minds exist but in schizos, they have false positives. Because pill is not clinically schizo but only PD (personality disorder) he is not delusional but incapable of knowing outside himself what minds are actually doing in the real world. But he can theorize all day about what people might be doing. (he reads books you know)
He says books by Asians are like books by children because they are not deep like the books he reads by Europeans.
– Lolita is a 1955 novel written by Russian-American novelist Vladimir Nabokov. –
Language to pill is the only way he can unnuhstan people because of poor vision. Without language (propositional intentions) you have no mind as rr puts it.
But what I think is and what pill always is saying is instinct/intuition. Asians have near-perfect vision systems. They do not need to translate things into language because they can see what pill can not. The relationships others have with others and unnuhstan this without verbal language. They just see people interacting with other people and they know/unnuhstan. pill doesn’t get it but children are more intuitive than adults are.
pill also is a proto-sociopath, he can control his impulses just enough to see what he can get out of other people by mechanistic trial and error. He sees people as objects of manipulation, not real people. emotional empathy is absent in him. Cannot feel what others feel.
AK is the opposite of pill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empath
Dwarf among midgets.flv – family guy
Your social intelligence is so bad santo you think im a sociopath lol. You are at the level of a 5 year old.
“You are at the level of a 5 year old.”
5/16=0.3125
AK age = 35
0.3125 * 35 = 10.9375
AK (g) = 135
1.35 * 10.9375 = 14.765
14 = the average American according to the British.
pill g 140(?) age 145(?)
16 * 1.4 = 22.4
pill mental age 22 compared to AK mental age of 14
5/14 = 0.357
0.357 * 22 = 7.85
if AK is 5 yo then pill is 8 yo relatively.
Jesus chrst you have to turn everything into an equation. VERY SEVERE AUTISM.
The intuition of a 5 yo has surpassed pill.
That math senths.
“continuous traumatic stress disorder (CTSD)”
I take three meds:
An antipsychotic for mood disorder.
A seizure med.
And an ADHD med.
These meds cured my generalized anxiety disorder.
WRONG YOU LYING DUMBASS!
(SPECIFY POPULATION)
MEAN OF THE POPULATION IQ TEST SCORES IN ABSOLUTE TERMS ARE MAXIMIZED AT…
AGE 35 +/- WHO CARES.
FLUID MAYBE 25.
CRYSTALLIZED MAYBE 55.
ANYWAY…
PIPO IN GENERAL…NOT JUST SOME PIPO…MATURE INTELECTUALLY WAY PAST AGE 16.
YOU JUST MADE THAT UP TO EXPLAIN WHY I DON’T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.
OBVIOUSLY.
For the Stanford-Binet scale ends at “sixteen years.” It assumes that intelligence stops developing at sixteen and everybody sixteen and over is therefore treated as “adult” or as “superior adult.” Now the adult Stanford-Binet tests were “standardized chiefly on the basis of results from 400 adults” (Terman p. 13) “of moderate success and of very limited educational advantages” and also thirty-two high school pupils from sixteen to twenty years of age. Among these adults those who tested close together have the honor of being considered the standard of average adult intelligence.
Figure Weights (135) 1/100
–
Figure Weights task measures quantitative and analogical reasoning
Figure Weights in contrast only uses different colors and shape tokens as weights without the necessity of incorporating proportional distance from the fulcrum.
successful performance on it has been classically considered to be an indicator of the development of formal stage of operations.
Piagetian reasoning tasks correlate most highly with the general intelligence factor and then with fluid intelligence factor and subsequently with crystallized intelligence
On the basis of these findings, it would be hypothesized that Figure Weights would be reliant on the dorsal frontoparietal circuits within the right hemisphere.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263563/
THE ULTIMATE POINT OF PEEPEE’S/RR’S BLOG IS…
1. ENORMOUS GUILT OF HIGH IQ GOOD PIPO…TRY TO…LOW IQ EVIL PIPO…
2. BECUSE JUST SAYING, “IGNORE BECAUSE LOW IQ” IS CRUEL/MEAN/VULGAR/TAMIL DALIT.
IRISH GUILT!
IRISH GUILT!
IRISH GUILT!
WYPIPO HAVE THERE OWN PROBLEMS/SHIT…
JUST STOP!
TODAY I’VE CONSUMED 6 7.5% BEERS.
TRYING FOR EXCUSE TO CONSUME THE WHOLE BOTTLE OF RUM I HAVE.
@analpleasure.com
WHY?
1. FAMOUS…BECAME FAMOUS…FOR REVERSING THE MONEY-GENDER ROLE.
2. SINCERELY RELIGIOUS!
3. GOOD, THE BEST, TASTE IN WOMEN.
AMERICAN GIGOLO IS OBVIOUSLY THE MOST UNDER-RATED MOVIE.
STEVE SHOE DID A POST ON IT.
GEORGIO MORODER…JUST ANOTHER IN A LONG LINE OF NORTHERN ITALIAN GENIUSES.
NORTHERN.
SAD.
THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH
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February 26, 2023 at 9:57 pm
I VERY MUCH ENCOURAGE RR TO BECAME A STRAIGHT-UP ALCOHOLIC…
AT LEAST FOR A MONTH…
MAYBE THIS WILL SHAKE HIM UP, MAKE HIM COME TO HIS SENSES.
The jews are coming down ultra hard on Scott Adams. Basically hes banned everywhere. Honestly, maybe even worse than what happened to Kanye.
Twitter CEO Elon Musk defended Adams in posts on the platform, saying the media previously “was racist against non-white people, now they’re racist against whites & Asians.”
LOL!
Adams said in his Wednesday rant that he had moved to a different location to get away from Black people, and urged other whites to do the same.
"I'm not saying start a war or anything like that," he said. "I'm just saying get away."
LMAO
He’s probably near death. It’s better to burn out in flames than fade away for r-selected leeches!
You know Elon is just 1 step away from saying why theyre racist against whites…
That’s a pretty huge step. Most Americans don’t think of the media as being ethnically different from most white people, so when he says the media is racist against whites, it sounds like all he’s saying is they’re self-hating liberals who suffer from white guilt.
I think Elon has read HBD stuff and might be aware of what ethnicity controls the media.
“You know Elon is just 1 step away from saying why theyre racist against whites…”
Elon Musk will never name the Jew. You are too mentally retarded to see the obvious reason for that. The most you will ever see from Elon is the “comedic” fake antisemitism of south park, the true purpose of which is to reinforce Jewish hegemony. Woody Allen makes Jewish jokes, that doesnt make him Bobby Fischer. Elon Musk is no Henry Ford.
Well duh of course I wasn’t expecting him to say “look at the jew”. But saying the media is racist against whites is tantamount to saying someone other than whites control it. Idiot aspy.
No as I explained it gets interpreted as whites being self-hating. People are too autistic to think beyond that. Douglas Murray even wrote a whole book about how whites have declared war on themselves. It never occurs to him that Jews play a role, on the contrary he’s a huge philo-semite who views anti-zionism as part of the anti-white self-hate. LOL
Yeah this guy Murray…he might have autism if he thinks that.
EXACTLY!
we need to talk more about female on male violence.
how many times did girls kick me in the balls…so many i can’t remember…
THAT HURT!
A LOT!
and i never went to the principal.
but girls go to the [deleted by peepee] after a man looks her the wrong way.
“and i never went to the principal.”
That just seems like it’s your fault, then, lol.
“Well duh of course I wasn’t expecting him to say “look at the jew”. But saying the media is racist against whites is tantamount to saying someone other than whites control it. Idiot aspy.”
Do you consider Aspergoids to be somewhat different from regular autists. I know that Paul Cooijman and pumpkin person do think that aspergoids differ from regular autists. You appear to think that I am an Aspergoid now, rather than a regular autist like Ganzir, Bruno and Illuminaticat.
The most you will ever see from Elon is the “comedic” fake antisemitism of south park, the true purpose of which is to reinforce Jewish hegemony.
This is exactly right. It’s a pressure release valve for right wing frustration, which makes them think comics Stone/Parker, Chappelle, etc. are somehow “their guys” and that political correctness in the “real world” isn’t as bad as it actually is. It’s also a form of controlled opposition that diverts politically incorrect people away from real criticism of Jews.
The furthest edge of the mainstream right’s focus on black crime (think Tucker and Ann Coulter) serves a similar function. Getting people mad at blacks accomplishes almost nothing, and it overloads scarce bandwidth that could be used to think about more important issues.
peepee keeps deleting my best comments therefore…
her blog dies…
UN-sadly.
They’re vulgar & disgusting. I’m doing you a favor by not posting them.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARIGHTY NOW!
having sex with mentally retarded people is EVIL!
Didn’t RR say he thought some mentally disabled people don’t have minds?
So mugabe is allowed to ask for santo to come back but you ban me from saying it. Great.
I was lying on the bed kind of drifting off and all of a sudden I heard someone say “Y’know” in the room. There was nobody else anywhere near me. I immediately sat up. That was freaky. Is my new apartment haunted or is this schizo stuff?
FBI just endorsed the Wuhan lab leak theory which I also accepted long ago.
Ron Unz has this weird theory that the US did it even though the CIA knew it would eventually blowback to America and the entire world. How can someone that smart have such an idiotic theory?
Thats like Mugabe believing Jesus created 5000 bread loafs and fish out of thin air or that Jesus teleported himself or that Jesus lasted 40 days in the desert without food or water or that… well you get my drift.
How can someone that smart have such an idiotic theory?
Because he’s not that smart.
Scott should just draw cartoons now about blacks and jews. I would even donate to him just for those.
Bruno has such a bullshit story about recruiting people. What was the job? Quantum computing? If it was ridiculously technical and all the questions were basically math questions then I’m sorry to say it involved no social intelligence. Nobody in human history was paid 500k to recruit people as a part time side job. That is totally ridiculous.
That was me. Thanks for the appreciation. I never lie. You are not far from it. Very technical but with management. It’s true that afterwards I completely changed track.
My current job is not the biggest deal, but let’s say it’s a bit like a chaired Ivy League university professor, you can’t give away much about it without being immediately identifiable by a simple google search.
Most money and capital I have now it’s not due to my earnings but to my family investment. To property wich I never figured out it would be a good thing because I stupidly believed The Economist papers. Thanks to my grandma in heaven. So that’s a bit humbling ..
this blog has the most demented narcissistic people in the world on it. bunch of low lifes. Pill the cocksucker eats too much shit from the toilet to realize that no one wants him commenting on here.
and Mug keep your filthy shit in your mouth instead of talking about me with it.
Anyone else notice the way Puppys reasoning is getting worse and worse over the years. The other day puppy said guys take out their dicks and show each their cocks to establish social status….only a fucking faggot or total fucking autist retard would say something like that.
LIE! What I said was having a big dick is a valued trait in modern culture. Never said anything about anyone exposing their cocks you filthy fantasist.
Pills a conman. he obviously is the reason this blog became toxic way back when.
he tries to pin people against one another like he did with between me and you and me and Anime! despicable.
You said men judged each other on their dick size. So how else is a man going to know another mans dick size?
No, what I said was:
And having a big dick is superior in the social sense but Rushton’s theory implied it is inferior. And in a way in a way it is because sex is all about shame. If something is considered sexy it’s probably shameful and inferior on some level too. Men find a big ass sexy but it’s sexy in part because it’s inferior and shameful. They want to rape it, not marry it. The most inferior and shameful thing humans do is defecate and some people find that sexy.
And then you went on a month long rampage accusing me of saying men show each other their dicks.
You said having a big dick is “superior in a social sense”. In a social sense means other people knowing how big your dick is.
Look puppy, this is why youre social intelligence is so bad. How else is a man going to know another mans dick size?? Thats right, he has to pull down his pants or tell the other man who might or might not believe it. In either case that behaviour is very very weird.
This other stuff about shame an rape. WTF.
Look puppy, this is why youre social intelligence is so bad. How else is a man going to know another mans dick size??
OMG you are soooooooooooooooooo tedious. You have such a concrete literal way of interpreting everything which indicates some kind of Theory of Mind problem related to schiz.
Never said others would know your dick size, I’m merely saying the current culture views a big dick as a status symbol. When you want to insult a guy, you accuse them of having a small dick, even if it’s just a metaphor:
https://www.nme.com/news/greta-thunberg-claps-back-at-andrew-tates-small-dick-energy-3372184
Similarly, when you want to praise someone’s courage, you say “he has balls”
Both these tropes show that the culture values big genitalia in men, even if 99% of the time a man’s size is only known by his partner.
That reminds me the term “boyfriend dick,” which is supposed to mean average and preferable for long-term sexual relation.
But all this talk made me wonder who here has the biggest cock. Anyone above 17cm comment.
LIE!
HEALTH and FERTILITY and SEXUAL DIMORPHISM is the ATTRACTION of non-perverted men to big-ish butts. wide hips + large muscles in the butt = HEALTH + FERTILITY. SEXUAL DIMORPHISM is not violated. women and men differ a lot less in lower body strength than upper body. so female cyclists, speed skaters, footballers can be sexy while female bodybuilders or weightlifters often look gross…but this could be due entirely to steroids…supposedly women can’t get buff in the upper body no matter how hard they try without steroids.
rr thinks wyboys like steatopygia.
LIE! only the perverts.
black guys are perverts. look at kim k’s fake butt. that wasn’t to attract wyboys.
So do you think better of men with bigger dicks yes or no?
No. Just the opposite
I mean, he could just be getting lazy due to age. I do think he makes weird claims every now and then regarding social things. Still, after a certain point, intelligence, not paranoia, will dictate how high someone’s social IQ (that’s why people who are good at math, music, athleticism, etc. are also more socially intelligent) is, and this is demonstrated when yall’s conversations get a little too nuanced for your to handle.
melo why are you pretentious beyond your years? you sound like a Boomer whenever you speak.
You need psychological help, buddy. Go fix yourself.
Melo you are such an idiot. i never liked anything about you but you seem like a scandalous prick.
you get help too man you dont have the courage to accept your place in the world. fool.
Yeah Loaded has totally lost it.
Pill you had nothing to lose in the first place so i cant really comment on anything you lost.
youre a nihilistic loser.
SANTO IS LITERALLY 7′ TALL.
SANTO WINNING THE GOLD MEDAL!
BAN RR!
BRING BACK SANTO!
OR LOADED WILL GIVE YOU A REASON TO. HE IS MY PUPPET. MY MIDGET MEAT MUSLIM PUPPET.
What the fuck is happening to this blog? Lol.
its dying and luckily in a few years no one will read it.
Pill have a talk with your parents theyll explain to you why youre a sociopath you fucking mush brained schizophrenic! i hope your hallucinations get worse and you realize that sucking dick is bad for your health.
youre a racist shithead looney! remember that you cucked schiz bitch.
Honestly you and anime have the worst comments in this blog.
honestly youre a sadistic sociopath
peepee wouldn’t post this because she hates black people not just white people.
Forever bannd pipi??
Don’t worry. I wont spend more time here in your “fantastic” blog…
Finally summarizing why “debating” with rr is a complete waste of time, because he is exactly like a chess pigeon, just like at least 70% of pseudo prog people.
And physicalism doesn’t exist as earthsphericism.
Both are pseudo concepts invented to create a debate where doesn’t exist through balance fallacy (i searched in google its name in english and i found one source via “rationalpedia” lol).
Physicalism and Earthspherism are not beliefs, they are facts. They could exist using these names as long as no have an opposite beliefs, exactly because no have such balance between a set of facts and a set of falsehoods.
It took almost 20 years but Denis Noble and Richard Dawkins have finally had a conversation about selfish genes.
https://iai.tv/video/the-gene-machine?utm_source=YouTube&utm_medium=description
selfish genes and group selection come out in the math. but they’re a very minor part of NS.
you all dont know shit except shit you repeat from other sources. none of you are original in any way.
group selection happens. is it NS or drift? fitness or random? are some groups different from others? rr says no, not at genetic level. but even he can’t say no at behavioral phenotype level. humans are unlike other animals in carrying a second genome, culture.
whole groups are organisms go extinct. what is it? 99% of all species that have ever been are extinct?
so again it’s just a matter of SEMANTICS.
except for social organisms. when the membership in the group becomes necessary or beneficial to survival and reproduction…the NS is inevitable.
“whole groups of organisms go extinct. ”
The environment drifted around them (because we all know environments have no consistency whatsoever so can never be adapted to).
whole groups (of organisms) are organisms (and die) go extinct.
Same person:
Racism is wrong…
But morality is relative.
They don’t help themselves.
”A misguided attack on evolution”
”The authors’ argument against “Darwinism” boils down to a two-pronged attack. First, they claim that biologists’ emphasis on ecological, or exogenous, factors is misplaced because endogenous genetic and developmental constraints play a crucial part in generating organic forms. Second, they argue that natural selection cannot be an evolutionary mechanism because evolution is a historical process, and history is “just one damned thing after another” with no overarching logic.”
”Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini misappropriate the famous critique of adaptationism (the idea that natural selection is sufficient to explain every complex biological trait) that Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin presented in their ‘spandrels’ paper of 1979. Gould and Lewontin warned about the dangers of invoking natural selection without considering alternatives. But Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini grossly overstate that case, concluding that natural selection has little or no role in the generation of biological complexity, contrary to much evidence.”
”In their second line of attack, Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini maintain that biological phenomena are a matter of historical contingency. They argue that generalizations are impossible because of the interplay of too many local conditions, such as ecology, genetics and chance. In their narrow view of what counts as science, only law-like processes allow for the testability of scientific hypotheses. Thus, they claim, an explanation of adaptations that is based on natural selection is defensible in only two cases — if there is intelligent design, or if there are laws of biology analogous to those of physics, both of which they reject. Here the authors ignore the entire field of evolutionary ecology, countless examples of convergent evolution of similar structures in different lineages that show the historical predictability of evolutionary processes, and the literature on experimental evolution, in which similar conditions consistently yield similar outcomes. There is clearly a logic to evolution.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/464353a
(1) Recent work in evo-devo and systems biology has proven them right. Read Denis Noble,Jablonka and Lamb, David Moore,Mary West-Eberhard, and Susan Oyama (though she’s not recent). The conceptual argument is sound.
(2) They don’t “misappropriate it”, they take it to its logical conclusion.
(3) Pigliucci doesn’t address anything about using NS to distinguish between correlated traits. In his other review he explicitly stated that “functional analyses rooted in physiology, genetics and developmental biology, and why observations of selection in the field are whenever possible coupled with manipulative experiments that make it possible to distinguish between [correlated traits].” That’s nonsense and not what they said at all.
There are lot of PSEUDO science in academia, specially in so called humanities. So yes there are lot of self proven pseudo scientifical works specially throught wordgames. One of the most promissing field now is “epigenetics” , even thought i dont think it is intrinsicaly pseudo but by the wa it has been developed it sound, smell and taste pseudo.
To prove empiricallly something only conceptual seems weird.
Where is the link of this review??
If you just use normal language would be easier to understand Fodor arguments. What is the main point??
Natural selection cannot be real or valid because many traits dont correspond perfectly to ecological context?? Is that??
I’m sure you know that media portrayals of epigenetics aren’t anything like actual research in epigenetics. I said this to Murray the other day—read Maurizio Meloni (Impressionable Biologies) and Jan Baedke (Above the Gene, Beyond Biology).
Directed mutations have been proven recently, which refutes some Darwinian considerations. Noble has shown that organisms harness stochasticity to generate function. A stochastic process is a state of a system that cannot be predicted even knowing the current state of the system.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC280056/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745452/
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsfs.2016.0159
I think the main point of Fodor’s argument is that since there are no laws of relative fitness, there is no way for natural selection to distinguish between correlated traits so it can’t be a mechanism.
”I’m sure you know that media portrayals of epigenetics aren’t anything like actual research in epigenetics. I said this to Murray the other day—read Maurizio Meloni (Impressionable Biologies) and Jan Baedke (Above the Gene, Beyond Biology).”
Most of epigenetics papers and reports i have read sounds exactly like Fodor’s “conceptual arguments”. Maybe is an intrinsic nature of a new field, many very specific terms. Or maybe is not…
What i know is that real Science tend to begin from macro perspective to micro perspective. From observable patterns to non observable ones and the evidence balance, at least from a macro (or just our ) perspective (level), in the human behavior field, is favorable to “darwinists” or whatever the name you call.
I bet majority of epigeneticists have a strong leftwing bias so they may think that “politics matter more than Science” or that “Science cannot be ‘neutral’ “.
”Directed mutations have been proven recently, which refutes some Darwinian considerations. ”
Example.
”Directed mutations”
What is that?
”Noble has shown that organisms harness stochasticity to generate function. A stochastic process is a state of a system that —cannot be predicted— even —knowing— the current state of the system.”
Well and what does this prove??
Non predictable OR UNKNOWN ???
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC280056/
By the abstract, I don’t see anything that refutes NS.
”The theory was based on the assumption that the effect of mutation on a genome is not random but has a directionality toward higher or lower guanine-plus-cytosine content of DNA, and this pressure generates directional changes more in neutral parts of the genome than in functionally significant parts”
This??
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745452/
”Abstract
The question whether evolution is blind is usually presented as a choice between no goals at all (‘the blind watchmaker’) and long-term goals which would be external to the organism, for example in the form of special creation or intelligent design.
The arguments either way do not address the question whether there are short-term goals within rather than external to organisms.”
within
Yes???
within rather than
???
Leave for writers and poets to be concerned about writing aesthetics. Real scientists and “even” philosophers need to write in an efficient and clear way.
”Organisms and their interacting populations have evolved mechanisms by which they can harness blind stochasticity and so generate rapid functional responses to environmental challenges.”
“Blind stochasticity” is sounding like a new term for “adaptive/functional/behavioral/endless.. flexibility”
”They can achieve this by re-organising their genomes and/or their regulatory networks. Epigenetic as well as DNA changes are involved. Evolution may have no foresight, but it is at least partially directed by organisms themselves and by the populations of which they form part. Similar arguments support —partial— direction in the evolution of behavior.”
But can’t it be predictable or when new behavior is found is it just something a human observer/watcher has not yet noticed?
Santor:You are a Neolamarckist!!
RR:What is neo-Lamarckism??
What does that mean??
RR:Read this
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsfs.2016.0159
Neolamarckish…
Next step:
“How epigenetics and blind stochasticity proves avg racial differences are mostly environmental-generated”
…
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05445-5
Okay, maybe the Weissman barrier isn’t perfect.
I read about a study with WORMS
”Recent research conducted at Tel Aviv University has just challenged one of the basic principles of biology: the Weismann barrier. This study is the first step towards future research on the heritability of knowledge, that is, it opens the door to the possibility of inheriting knowledge from past generations.
Researchers led by Professor Oded Rechavi, Department of Neurobiology at the George S. Wise Faculty of Life Sciences, in conjunction with the Sagol School of Neuroscience, discovered an RNA-based mechanism that suggests that neurons’ response to the environment may be inherited. That is, acquired information could affect the behavior of descendants.
The experiment, presented on June 6, 2019, was carried out with a species of worm: nematodes (Caenorhabditis elegans). The team showed how cells in the nervous system can transmit information to the next generations of WORMS.”
Humans are still humans and worms are still worms??
Something that might have been witnessed under controlled conditions in completely different species could happen to us??
Stressed/sful mothers tend to have stressed/ful children basically when there is some inheritance of ”personality/reactivity” traits?
like…
caused by an underlying genetic variant??
… consider that such uninformed tweeting leads to racism against both Jews & Muslims. We vote according to our conscious but aren’t the ones deciding on military strikes. We’re prisoners of corrupted politicians & endless cycles of violence & this feeds anti-Semitism.
Directed mutation is induced by a stress response of an organism, and the mutation relieves the stressors in question.
“I don’t see anything that refutes NS”
If mutations aren’t random as neo-Darwinists claim—but are actually directed—then that refutes a main neo-Darwinian idea.
Yea that quote you provided is what I was talking about. If mutations are directed, then one premise is false.
By using blind stochasticity, organisms can adapt to environments in ways that blind change can’t. Stochasticity is ubiquitous in the biological organism.
Yea the C. Elegans stuff is really interesting. But if you’re interested in transgenrational epigenetics in humans you should read this paper by Maurizio Meloni.
https://academic.oup.com/eep/article/4/2/dvy019/5062886?login=false
“mutations aren’t random as neo-Darwinists claim—but are actually directed”
directed by whom?
God?
Don’t give me your BS again.
I already explained what cybernetics is.
What the hell are you talking about? The physiological system directs the mutation when the organism is stressed and the mutation directly relieves the stress.
“Directed mutation is induced by a stress response of an organism, and the mutation relieves the stressors in question.”
Directed mutation that can be predicted (when known) because never that happen to an organism it’s beyond this own biological possibilities: limitations, potentialities…
“If mutations aren’t random as neo-Darwinists claim—but are actually directed—then that refutes a main neo-Darwinian idea.”
The main neodarwinian idea is still NS. It doesn’t refute it.
And yes, i never liked to think sheer randomness driving evolution, never make sense to me, but i don’t think no has any degree of random mutation.
Randomness is higher but never absolute specially when a species is passing throught a selective pressure but always under its own BIOLOGICAL possibiltiies. It’s sound deterministic right??
“By using blind stochasticity, organisms can adapt to environments in ways that blind change can’t. Stochasticity is ubiquitous in the biological organism.”
You mean BI OLOGY???
“Yea the C. Elegans stuff is really interesting. But if you’re interested in transgenrational epigenetics in humans you should read this paper by Maurizio Meloni.”
I don’t. I posted a link criticizing epigenetics that is more interesting.
Directed mutation and evolution, in general, is like filling a baloon.
More you direct your path more predictable and stereotypical or characteristic it becomes. So the force behind it is the own directedness, no intelligent design or sheer randomness.
Actually it can be called an inteligent or logical design (never in religious sense) because our basic model of adaptation came from the most primordial lifeforms. We are just replicating this model in species-specific ways.
“The main neodarwinian idea is still NS”
Which Fodor refuted.
“It doesn’t refute it.”
Yes it does. A premise of the neo-Darwinian paradigm is that first random mutations occur which are then selected-for. But if mutations aren’t random—if they’re directed—this means that the premise is refuted.
You’re not interested in a paper that talks about TEI in humans?
If mutations are directed and not merely random chance, then one pillar of neo-Darwinism falls. Most mutations are directed and not merely random chance. So one pillar of neo-Darwinism falls. Denis Noble has exhaustively shown that all of the considerations of neo-Darwinism are false. The EES is the way forward, not the outdated modern synthesis.
“The main neodarwinian idea is still NS”
Which Fodor refuted.
Just conceptually not empiricallly??
Lots of empirical evidences…
“It doesn’t refute it.”
“Yes it does. A premise of the neo-Darwinian paradigm is that first random mutations occur which are then selected-for. But if mutations aren’t random—if they’re directed—this means that the premise is refuted.”
Mutations are not totally directed. A mutation that make people have delusion is or was not really DIRECTED, because “errors” of a given biological model are not “directed”, they happen because on previously determined bio possibilities of likelihood. Only mutation that can become directed is that which displaying contextual advantages.
I said “he not refuted NS”
Didnt…
“You’re not interested in a paper that talks about TEI in humans?”
If is you who are recommending, no, thanks.
“If mutations are directed and not merely random chance, then one pillar of neo-Darwinism falls. Most mutations are directed and not merely random chance.”
Mutations are “errors”.
“So one pillar of neo-Darwinism falls. Denis Noble has exhaustively shown that all of the considerations of neo-Darwinism are false. The EES is the way forward, not the outdated modern synthesis”
Because racism and antisemitism…
It’s refuted conceptually and empirically. I would say many mutations are directed. Your making claims that are directly refuted and I give you papers to show you that you’re wrong and you say “no thanks if you’re recommending”. Clown. What does racism and anti-semitism have to do with this discussion? Clearly I know your motivations here.
”It’s refuted conceptually and empirically.”
In your parallel world, it was.
”I would say MANY mutations are directed.”
changing words…
”Your making claims that are directly refuted and I give you papers to show you that you’re wrong and you say “no thanks if you’re recommending”. Clown.”
highest cynicism.
I bet you’re laughing…
I like to read people who, at least, write in normal way, even if it’s bullshit.
”What does racism and anti-semitism have to do with this discussion?”
Accepting the reality of natural selection can… justify social darwinism policies.
So tactic is to distort as much as possible.
” Clearly I know your motivations here.”
To understand?
know the truth?
[because on previously determined bio possibilities OR likelihood]
You haven’t even read the book to know there is an empirical argument and conceptual argument so you’re clueless. It’s a “clarification.”
“tactic is distort as much as possible”
Too bad natural selection isn’t a reality. Even if it were, it wouldn’t “justify social darwinism policies.”
One of the main tenets of neo-Darwinism is that mutations occur randomly. Noble has shown that this isn’t the case—there are directed mutations. This disproves a main tenet of neo-Darwinism. If you were familiar with his work then you would know that he’s disproved all of the major tenets of neo-Darwinism, and so we should accept the extended evolutionary synthesis (EES). It’s not only Fodor that has challenged neo-Darwinism, a whole slew of other authors have, and they have struck deep at the main considerations of the theory.
“In both cases, organisms can harness stochasticity in ways that generate rational (i.e. guided) responses to environmental challenges. The empirical foundation was laid out in (Noble 2017) and applied to agency driven processes in (Noble and Noble 2017; Noble and Noble 2018). Organisms have demonstrably evolved guided random mutation and other molecular mechanisms that can respond rapidly and correctly to environmental challenges. These processes allow organisms and populations to harness stochasticity to evolve solutions to such challenges relatively fast compared to the accumulation of non-harnessed chance variations. It is the harnessing of stochasticity in guided responses to environmental challenges that achieves what blind chance alone could not possibly do.”
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10838-020-09525-3
Basically, to neo-Darwinians, mutations are random and not due to need. But recent developments in systems biology and evo-devo have, as I stated earlier, shown that this just is not the case. That then lends credence to the empirical argument in Fodor’s book (part 1) and against the idea of one of the tenets of neo-Darwinism.
Click to access Shapiro-Noble-2021.pdf
And if you want to see the difference, this paper talks about the structure and novel predictions of the EES and how it differs from the MS.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1019
If you were to actually read some research then you’d see that what I’m saying factual.
https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-8-24
”Too bad natural selection isn’t a reality.”
It’s exactly like talking to a flat earther…
Are you happy, PP
”One of the main tenets of neo-Darwinism is that mutations occur randomly. Noble has shown that this isn’t the case—there are directed mutations. This disproves a main tenet of neo-Darwinism.”
”Too bad natural selection isn’t a reality.”
You’re a dumb and I don’t want to waste time with you anymore.
a main tenet of neo-Darwinism
=
NS…
”If you were familiar with his work then you would know that he’s disproved all of the major tenets of neo-Darwinism, and so we should accept the extended evolutionary synthesis (EES). It’s not only Fodor that has challenged neo-Darwinism, a whole slew of other authors have, and they have struck deep at the main considerations of the theory.”
All that you are stating is your emotional opinion about…
Currently, the vast majority of academia is against the idea that there are racial differences in intelligence that cannot be explained by socio-environmental factors.
And they are dead wrong, like you.
When and after Einstein published his theory, there were many scholars who were critical or skeptical about it….
“exactly like a flat earther”
Mhm.
“I don’t want to waste time with you anymore”
Yet you’ll still make new comments to talk about me and what I say.
“emotional opinion”
Nope.
“they are dead wrong”
Nope. “IQ” differences aren’t “intelligence” differences. What evidence do you have for your claim? Let me guess: Rushton, Lynn, Jensen, Rindermann surveys. Don’t make me laugh.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07983-4
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8625720/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00957984940202007
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1089268020953622
Go off though, I guess.
”Basically, to neo-Darwinians, mutations are random and not due to need.”
Basically, neo-Darwinists don’t all think alike.
And being wrong about one or another point doesn’t mean being wrong about everything.
”But recent developments in systems biology and evo-devo have, as I stated earlier, shown that this just is not the case. That then lends credence to the empirical argument in Fodor’s book (part 1) and against the idea of one of the tenets of neo-Darwinism.”
Repetitive OPINIONS…
It’s like if i say that Darwin was right on every comment.
So humans would appear anyway???
The idea of a random mutation must logically be centralized especially on the process of speciation.
The level of unpredictability/limited-randomness is greatest at the dawn of a species.
Before the existence/emergence of humans, no “directed mutation” could predict it…
My guy, that’s a direct refutation of one of the main tenets of the Modern Synthesis. What’s so hard to understand about that?
“OPINIONS”
No, it’s a fact. You didn’t read the book so you wouldn’t know.
The rest of your comment is incoherent.
Your ignorance to the literature is extremely clear, combined with this: “If is you who are recommending, no, thanks.”, it’s clear that you’re not interested in fixing your ignorance.
”Like many other science bloggers I criticized Fodor’s confused interpretation of evolutionary theory, but apparently he just waved away any opposing arguments from us lesser creatures. The philosopher is now making the rounds to promote the new book he wrote with Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini, called What Darwin Got Wrong, and in an interview published in Salon Fodor had this to say of the responses he has received from bloggers:
Most of the backlash to the book so far has been on blogs, which have been pretty obscene and debased. What’s upsetting is that they tell you that they think you’re an idiot, but they don’t tell you why — people who aren’t part of the field or who may not, in many cases, know much about Darwin. I’m not sure that all people who have been blogging about it are very sophisticated. It’s frustrating because you don’t know who you’re talking to.
At some point you just have to stop worrying about the reaction and worry if the argument is any good. I don’t take the arguments that say, “This that can’t be true because of what I learned in Biology 101” very seriously.
As might be expected of someone who does not take criticism well Fodor casts all bloggers are ignorant hacks who can do nothing other than offer “obscene and debased” rants about his work. Unfortunately for Fodor this characterization does not hold up. Back in 2007 Jason Rosenhouse wrote a thoughtful, detailed response to Fodor’s London Review of Books piece, and Bob O’Hara has written an excellent takedown of the recent editorials Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini have been churning out, neither of which I would call “obscene” or “debased.” And Fodor also ignores that he has received a fair bit of praise from the intelligent design crowd, both from the cesspool of nonsense that is Uncommon Descent to the Discovery Institute mouthpiece Evolution News and Views (though, in true creationist fashion, these supporters of What Darwin Got Wrong care more that it can be construed as a case of “friendly fire” than what the book actually says). Thus far intelligent design advocates seem to be among Fodor’s biggest fans.
Fodor’s entire argument hinges upon a broad caricature of evolutionary theory which only seems to exist in his imagination. In the Salon interview he states:
The main thing Darwin had in mind with natural selection was to come up with a theory that answers the question, “Why are certain traits there?” Why do people have hair on their heads? Why do both eyes have the same color? Why does dark hair go with dark eyes? You can make up a story that explains why it was good to have those properties in the original environment of selection. Do we have any reason to think that story is true? No.
According to Darwin, traits of creatures are selected for their contribution to fitness [likelihood to survive]. But how do you distinguish a trait that is selected for from one that comes along with it? There are a lot of interesting structures in creatures that have nothing to do with fitness.
Some variants in selection are clearly environmental. If you can’t store water you’ll do worse in a dry environment than if you can. But suppose that having a high ability to carry a lot of water is correlated for genetic reasons with skin color. How do you decide which trait is selected for by environmental factors and which one is just attached to it? There isn’t anything in the Darwinist picture that allows you to answer that question.
Fodor’s response belies the fact that he is responding to a form of evolutionary theory that does not actually exist. Charles Darwin did not propose natural selection to explain the existence of individual traits but to provide a comprehensible mechanism by which organisms can change over the course of generations. The way traits affected survival and reproduction were a part of his idea, but even Darwin himself was not as strict a “Darwinist” as Fodor proposes. I would not be surprised if Fodor eschewed doing any historical research at all for his work. As said by Peter Forbes in his review of What Darwin Got Wrong:
Fodor is a philosophical fl√¢neur: he loves cheap jokes and affects a kind of provocative insouciance. His 2003 book on Hume states at the outset that he “could even write a book on Hume without actually knowing anything about him,” and then claims to have done so.
Fodor’s lack of historical scholarship allows him to paint modern scientists with the same brush without so much as a second thought. According to Fodor the business of evolutionary biologists is to sit about identifying traits and coming up with “Just So” stories to explain them. On the surface this might seem similar to Stephen J. Gould and Richard Lewontin’s critique of the “adaptationist” regime in their famous paper “The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm“, but whereas Gould and Lewontin looked to extend evolutionary theory beyond considerations of selection and adaptation alone Fodor would like to throw the whole thing out in preference of nebulous “self-organizing” principles. As far as I can tell Fodor prefers a “bottom up” type view of evolution in which organisms change according to internal principles and constraints, and it is only afterwards that they spread into a different type of habitat or niche. It is a sort of “Great Chain of Being” type thinking in which every form that is possible will eventually evolve, and if a creature does not exist there must be some sort of internal constraint that prevented its appearance.
If I have understood correctly (which, I must admit, Fodor makes it unnecessarily difficult to do) this explains why he has grossly misinterpreted the way evolution by means of natural selection works. Let’s run with his desert scenario. It is not as if the ability to store water is the result of some kind of macromutation which organisms either do or do not have. As Darwin aptly showed with the analogy to artificial selection variations provide the raw stuff for natural selection to work. Members of a population may differ in their abilities to retain moisture, and if those with more ability to do so start to create a new niche or exploit the resources in the dry habitat which is otherwise inaccessible to others then they may have increased reproductive success (and under the right conditions speciate into a new type better adapted to a dry environment).
Admittedly this is hypothetical, but Fodor does not seem very interested in diving into real examples. By refraining from engaging scientists over actual research he is free to ask absurd questions that only impress those who know as little about evolutionary theory as he does. Take, for example, his exposition on why there are no flying pigs in his abstract published in the London Review of Books:
For example, nobody, not even the most ravening of adaptationists, would seek to explain the absence of winged pigs by claiming that, though there used to be some, the wings proved to be a liability so nature selected against them. Nobody expects to find fossils of a species of winged pig that has now gone extinct. Rather, pigs lack wings because there’s no place on pigs to put them. To add wings to a pig, you’d also have to tinker with lots of other things. In fact, you’d have to rebuild the pig whole hog: less weight, appropriate musculature, an appropriate metabolism, an apparatus for navigating in three dimensions, a streamlined silhouette and god only knows what else; not to mention feathers. The moral is that if you want them to have wings, you will have to redesign pigs radically. But natural selection, since it is incremental and cumulative, can’t do that sort of thing. Evolution by natural selection is inherently a conservative process, and once you’re well along the evolutionary route to being a pig, your further options are considerably constrained; you can’t, for example, go back and retrofit feathers.
Here Fodor makes a few points that are already well-known and draws entirely the wrong conclusion. There are places to put wings on a pig (the arms, as bats, birds, and pterosaurs so beautifully illustrate) but in order to have a “pig with wings” you would have to modify the animal to such an extent that it would cease looking like a pig altogether. Changes to its posture, balance, weight, bone structure, body covering, etc. would need to be made in order to create a flying pig, but the idea that (in the fullness of time) natural selection absolutely could not radically alter organisms does not follow. We know from the fossil record, for example, that fleshy-finned fish were adapted into the first terrestrial vertebrates and that one group of descendants of those early tetrapods much later became adapted to life in the sea to become whales. (Hell, I have just written a whole book about just these kinds of transitions.) Yes, the ways organisms vary and can be adapted are constrained by a variety of factors, from development to functional mechanics, but it does not follow that those constraints are so powerful that they negate any creative power behind natural selection.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/jerry-fodor-still-getting-it-wrong-about-evolution
…
The moral is that Fodor’s argument is conceptual, so empirical evidence is irrelevant. If you think any of them have actually refuted either version of the argument, let me know which premise is refuted and why.
…Fodor’s argument is conceptual FALSE!
rr is an example of dysgenics.
…let me know which premise is refuted and why…
i’ve already done that many times.
“The moral is that Fodor’s argument is conceptual, so empirical evidence is irrelevant”
Yourself are refuting Fodor’s argument right now. I dont think he thought his arguments are just conceptual. In real science and also in real philosophy, you need to prove your point even at conceptual perspective. It need to make any sense with real or empirical world.
So if his argument is just conceptual and then self suffiicient, so why do you think mental psychiatric conditions are invalid?? It’s basically the same thing. Oh no, sorry, is not because has been found empirical evidence about psychiatric conditions.
Most of Fodor arguments are based on fallacies specially strawman fallacy.
It’s also empirically proven.
There’s an empirical argument (part 1) and conceptual argument (part 2). New considerations from developmental systems theorists/systems biologists have proven part 1 right. Most if not all critics don’t really understand the conceptual argument, I think.
You can define some abstract space such that each genotype corresponds to a point in said space. You can then imagine a function that maps genotype and environment to a given phenotype, and in particular, to a given fitness.
Consider a population in a given environment. We could view this population as defining a set of points in genotypic space. The distribution of points in the next generation will depend (although not solely) on the fitness of the different members of the current generation. We can see that the distribution of points will over time change and move through genotypic space. (Note that you don’t need discrete generation, what is essential is the movement over time).
Considering this makes it easy to understand natural selection as the process by which, owing to differences in fitness, the distribution of genotypes changes over time.
With natural selection so conceptualised, does Fodors’ argument still apply?
If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument. But since it’s posited as a causal mechanism, that’s where Fodor’s argument rears its head. Natural selection is supposed to be a non-local mechanism.
Yes it is conceptual. And since it’s conceptual, empirical evidence is irrelevant.
“The moral is that Fodor’s argument is conceptual, so empirical evidence is irrelevant.”
Adaptation/NS doesn’t happen conceptually. <- Yes because there is nothing to adapt to unless we define some constraints (laws) and values (instantiations or objects).
Adaptation/NS happens in practice <- Yes because there are actually matters-of-fact to adapt to. (environments and physical laws).
His conceptual argument refutes adaptationist/selectionist claims. The empirical argument is also true.
nota bene!
tao ruspoli is a central italian aristocrat.
giovanni gentile southern.
Benedetto Croce southern.
Giambattista Vico southern.
ALL KNOW/KNEW THAT ANGLO-ANAL PHILOSOPHY IS GAY.
”There’s an empirical argument (part 1) and conceptual argument (part 2)”
Nope.
Any ”conceptual argument” needs to have an empirical correspondence.
Or maybe you are confusing ”argument” with a ”truthful claim”.
An argument is never a definition of something.
differential survival and reproduction of organism
This is a reasonable definition for natural selection. As detailed above, this is also one of the processes by which the distribution of genotypes (and phenotypes) changes over time. Since this is approximately what everyone means by natural selection, and since you agree that there is no argument, it is difficult to see how you reject natural selection.
”If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument. But since it’s posited as a causal mechanism, that’s where Fodor’s argument rears its head”.
Because NS is not just an outcome. It’s exactly one of the most important “causal mechanisms” to species’ evolution.
But it seems also there is a variation of its intensity that probably confuses people. Natural or any specific selective process is not always significant, like in near extinction scenarios or very impactful in changing phenotypic landscape. Actually, it seems more an exception than a rule.
”Natural selection is supposed to be a non-local mechanism.”
I don’t understand what it means. Can you develop your reasoning a little bit after a claim??
“”There’s an empirical argument (part 1) and conceptual argument (part 2)”
Nope.”
Yup. Read the book and you’ll see that.
“Any ”conceptual argument” needs to have an empirical correspondence.”
Empirical evidence is irrelevant to a priori arguments.
“It’s exactly one of the most important “causal mechanisms” to species’ evolution.”
This is the exact claim under contention.
“”Natural selection is supposed to be a non-local mechanism.”
I don’t understand what it means. Can you develop your reasoning a little bit after a claim??”
“Non-local” means not local, that it’s a generalized mechanism that would explain trait fixation across all ecologies and phenotypes. That’s how NS is treated in the literature.
““If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument.”
It is.”
If that’s the case then there isn’t an argument. The argument is only with those who claim a generalized mechanism that can select-for fitness-enhancing traits, which is the received view in the literature.
“NS is the logical conclusion from the way reality is constructed, it is not the “cause” of anything.”
Do a Scholar search of “natural selection mechanism” and you’ll see a flurry of claims to the contrary. Fodor’s argument is for those people. It’s posited as THE CAUSE of selection-for fit traits.
What are the ex ante specifiable ceteris paribus generalizations?
“What are the ex ante specifiable ceteris paribus generalizations?”
I’m guessing one would be that if you looked at the line of ancestors of any living organism, every single one of them was more adapted to their contemporary environment compared to any of the random organisms of the same or other species that died before reproduction.
Obviously that’s tautological, but that describes why generally everything living now appears adapted to its environment while everything that dies appears to not be. But it also describes why life seems to get more complex/adapted to more situations over time. Genetic drift doesn’t give any such explanation because there is no inherent survivability direction in genetic drift.
Of course it’s tautologous like “survival of the fittest” “Only the fit survive. Who are the fit? Those who survive. Who survives? Those who are fit.” Again, that’s not a law and that’s not the kind of law that Fodor is looking for; it doesn’t address the contention.
Yes but you keep looking for NS to “cause” things when clearly it is an inert law. Even if we described the speed of light as “causing something” we are not really sure what is “causing”, we just know that the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s. We don’t know what causes the laws of motion. They are just descriptions of what is true, how things exist.
Mutations occurring and then NS filtering out unfit mutations may or may not describe how a lot of traits/organisms have come to fixation (evolution), but given that we know a lot of organisms seem to only survive/thrive in specific environments, and a lot of organisms die and/or go extinct, while other organisms change and move environments and still thrive, we need a way to describe why this is the case. NS describes it in a way that doesn’t involve intentionality. It doesn’t involve “God’s favor”.
Regardless of what generally causes or generates new traits, NS will describe the constraints on traits, no matter what point in the process and what is involved. Assuming we have a reasonable grasp on physical laws, how organisms develop, and how mutations arise, we can state that NS applies more or less at that specific juncture.
If chance plays any role in trait/organism survival (as compared to God’s intentions), NS will apply to that degree. Fodor’s problem is he keep acting as if there are other options by stating there are “other causal mechanisms” besides chance and intelligent design. Evolution, or anything that happens in reality, is either chance (acausal) or intended. Acausal things happen by random, and/or follow some other chain of events that started randomly… Either evolution happens because some result was intended or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then we can never find a “cause” for any specific trait fixation over others, only a description of what will be favored given the environment, and NS will be part of that description. That’s why I keep mentioning determinism and intentionality in this discussion.
I assume most Neo-Darwinists are atheists so I don’t think they would believe NS is a causal mechanism, just a description.
Describing the speed of light as causing something is completely different from describing natural selection as a causal mechanism of trait fixation and species creation.
“we can assume NS applies more or less”
Until you name the kind of law Fodor is looking for that would be able to distinguish between correlated traits, then we can’t say it “applies more or less.”
Intentionality (and intensionality) are relevant iff there is an agent of NS. That’s out. So, again, what would be able cash out the distinction would be laws of relative fitness.
“I don’t think the would believe NS is a causal mechanism”
You need to read some of the originators of the Modern Synthesis, then. Do a scholar or Google search for “natural selection mechanism” and you’ll see many making the claim that NS is a causal mechanism.
“Describing the speed of light as causing something is completely different from describing natural selection as a causal mechanism of trait fixation and species creation.”
No it isn’t. If I say a laser moves at X speed because a laser is light and light moves at X speed, I’m not using the speed of light to cause anything. It is simply the property of light that it moves at that speed. Any other physical (non-intentional) cause is that way. The ultimate cause is either acausal or intentional (teleological).
“we can assume NS applies more or less”
“Until you name the kind of law Fodor is looking for that would be able to distinguish between correlated traits, then we can’t say it “applies more or less.””
You already agreed it is a tautology… so obviously it applies. It obviously distinguishes between correlated traits if one of the traits means death for the organism. This is tautologically true. NS describes how reality must work.
“Intentionality (and intensionality) are relevant iff there is an agent of NS. That’s out. So, again, what would be able cash out the distinction would be laws of relative fitness.””
The laws of relative fitness depend on the environment… and given that there is indeterminacy at the quantum level any law could only be probabilistic. We’ve already went over this. No one has made such an equation because that would be tantamount to modeling to a concrete level of chemistry, physics, and how intentionality interacts with them (because of organisms with minds).
NS applies any time there is no directed evolution with a specific organism/trait in mind. Since there is quantum indeterminacy, and if there is no teleological aspect of reality, there are cases where NS applies. NS describes the filter that a trait/organism must pass through in order to pass on its traits to the next generation: Survivability/Fitness.
“You need to read some of the originators of the Modern Synthesis, then. Do a scholar or Google search for “natural selection mechanism” and you’ll see many making the claim that NS is a causal mechanism.”
Likely, they are using it in a different sense then you/Fodor use it (as a “first cause” or “ultimate explanation”). Like Mugabe is posting you have to be specific with what you mean by “cause”, because ultimate causes and the implications derived from them are both called causes.
The claim that NS is a causal mechanism implies that it has access to more than the correlation.
Of course it is tautologous. It CAN’T distinguish between correlated traits. That’s the whole point of the argument.
The filter has access only to the correlation, not the causation.
I don’t think they are using it in another way that Fodor and I are using it. It’s supposed to explain why organisms have the traits they do.
“The claim that NS is a causal mechanism implies that it has access to more than the correlation.
Of course it is tautologous. It CAN’T distinguish between correlated traits. That’s the whole point of the argument.”
Are there constraints on what traits can replicate and sustain themselves? Are those constraints by accident rather than a mind, such as those that come as result of available resources and specific physical laws? Then NS applies. What traits are allowed are “naturally selected”.
“The filter has access only to the correlation, not the causation.”
How do we prove anything in reality isn’t a correlation? How do we know where the ultimate cause lies?
NS is not supposed to have access to the causation, it is the result of how reality must work given that constraints on what traits are fit exists through nature.
“What traits are allowed are “naturally selected”.”
(1) Physical laws aren’t laws of relative fitness and (2) phyletic and developmental constraints aren’t relevant to natural selection; the alternative to natural selection is, as I’ve said earlier, endogenous variables, It’s developmental.
“NS is not supposed to have access to the causation”
It’s purported to be a theory of causation. Darwin is said to have had discovered this causal mechanism. Natural selection is supposed to explain the origin and persistence of biological variation in biological populations. Again, the way its construed in the literature is that if a causal mechanism, that is, a mechanism that can distinguish between causes and correlates of causes, correlated traits.
“(1) Physical laws aren’t laws of relative fitness and (2) phyletic and developmental constraints aren’t relevant to natural selection; the alternative to natural selection is, as I’ve said earlier, endogenous variables, It’s developmental.”
1. Physical laws and specific environmental instantiations determine what fitness is.
2. What developmental constraints can exist are determined by physical laws and the environment.
Whatever mechanism development works by is either determined, acausal, or intended. Saying “developmental systems” is a cause or gene-environment interaction is the cause of development or evolution is simply masking what the real cause is. How does the body/developmental system know how to develop unless it already knows what it wants to do? How does it know what it wants to do without a mind?
Even with a feedback system, the feedback system itself is still subject to selection by being adapted to its environment, or not.
“It’s purported to be a theory of causation. Darwin is said to have had discovered this causal mechanism. Natural selection is supposed to explain the origin and persistence of biological variation in biological populations. Again, the way its construed in the literature is that if a causal mechanism, that is, a mechanism that can distinguish between causes and correlates of causes, correlated traits.”
The explanation of widespread adaptation to niche and environment, given consistent constraints and time, would be because there is an adaptable mechanism within organisms. In that sense NS would be a “cause”.
Variation in organisms is constructed during development due to interactions between genetic and non-genetic factors, and this was known all the way back in 1979:
“Contrary to the neo-Darwinian view, we point out that the variations of the phenotype, on which natural selection could act, do not arise at random; they are produced by interactions between the organism and the environment during development. We propose, therefore, that the intrinsic dynamical structure of the epigenetic system itself, in its interaction with the environment, is the source of non-random variations which direct evolutionary change, and that a proper study of evolution consists in the working out of the dynamics of the epigenetic system and its response to environmental stimuli as well as the mechanisms whereby novel developmental responses are canalized.”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/22628078_Beyond_neo-Darwinism-an_epigenetic_approach_to_evolution
The developmental system is self-organizing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3148307/
Once you articulate a law of relative fitness that holds across genotypes and ecologies, you will then have shown what is needed to distinguish between correlated traits.
Thay there are mechanisms within organisms that lead to trait variation/fixation is irrelevant to the claim that natural selection can’t distinguish between causes and correlates of causes—correlated traits. The fact of the matter is, the alternative to neo-Darwinism—a form of developmental systems theory/EES—is true. We’ve know for decades that the neo-Darwinian paradigm is false and rests on mostly false pretenses. Fodor’s argument isn’t even needed for us to reject neo-Darwinism; Noble’s and Jablonka and Lamb’s works are more than enough. Fodor’s argument merely establishes that natural selection can’t be the mechanism of trait fixation. The other arguments and references I’ve given establish the claims I’ve been arguing for.
“Darwin is said”
“the way its construed in the literature”
So you admit you are using strawmen to “prove” NS false.
How about instead of doing that you instead tell us what NS actually is? We can then follow your “arguments” to “logical conclusions”.
Until then you just refute strawmen. Again and again.
How is it a “strawman” to state that MANY people have stated that Darwin discovered the mechanism by which traits become fixated and that it’s construed as a mechanism in the literature? You’ve just outed yourself as being ignorant to the literature.
CONSTRUED..
What is NS?
rr cannot answer without a strawman.
He can’t answer at all for 24 hours. RR please use the time to reflect.
“If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument.”
It is.
“But since it’s posited as a causal mechanism, that’s where Fodor’s argument rears its head.”
No one knows the ultimate cause of anything. We infer event causation from physical laws that are verifiable and we infer intentional causation from our own experience and feelings being validated by our actions. But no one knows what the origin is of either. Free will is assumed to be the origin of intentional causation and some kind of first cause is assumed to be the origin of event causation/physical laws. No one knows what causes wave functions to collapse in quantum physics. Ergo, no one knows the cause of anything, we only know what laws hold true, and for intentional causation the origin is the will which comes from itself.
NS is the logical conclusion from the way reality is constructed, it is not the “cause” of anything.
“Natural selection is supposed to be a non-local mechanism.”
It is nonlocal but there actually has to be consistency and time allowed for adaptation for a system. NS doesn’t follow if there is nothing to adapt (organisms that exist throughout time and pass on their traits) and nothing to adapt to (environments/laws).
“Yup. Read the book and you’ll see that.”
That books you read?? No, sorry, i prefer take a poison than a long term headache reading this.
Empirical evidence is irrelevant to a priori arguments.”
“Your” arguments are not “a priori” or reasonable, sorry.
An “argument” without any correspondence with given reality is basically an imagination.
“This is the exact claim under contention.”
For pseudo scientists and pretending knowledgeables.
“Non-local” means not local
… so cute
“that it’s a generalized mechanism that would explain trait fixation across all ecologies and phenotypes. That’s how NS is treated in the literature.”
Generalized mechanism across all ecologies and phenotypes = variably differential reproductive or selective pressure mostly caused by environmental circumstances which depending of its intensity generates phenotypical and genotypical differentiation at medium to long term. It happens from micro to macro perspectives but different organisms often have different evolutionary “strategies” and scientists don’t know all mechanisms involved specially for very different species to human one.
““If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument.”
This is exactly the mechanism… due to environmental pressure.
“If that’s the case then there isn’t an argument. The argument is only with those who claim a generalized mechanism that can select-for fitness-enhancing traits, which is the received view in the literature.”
So because NS is not “perfect” (due to difference in intensity pressure) NS can’t be valid???
Is this??
“Do a Scholar search of “natural selection mechanism” and you’ll see a flurry of claims to the contrary. Fodor’s argument is for those people. It’s posited as THE CAUSE of selection-for fit traits.”
It’s a tradition in Science… but the fact there are people contrary to NS doesn’t mean they are right..
It’s posited as ONE of the CAUSE, one of the most important IF NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT but never only one.
“That books you read?? No, sorry, i prefer take a poison than a long term headache reading this.”
You made a false claim about WDGW. If you were to actually read the book, you’d see you’re wrong.
You should learn what an a priori argument is.
“““If natural selection were merely differential survival and reproduction of organism there would be no argument.”
This is exactly the mechanism… due to environmental pressure.”
Nope. The claim under contention is natural selection being a causal mechanism. If it were merely differential survival and reproduction of the organism, there would be no argument.
It CAN’T be a cause of new species nor trait fixation, as Fodor has shown. Nothing you’re saying refutes the argument.
”You should learn what an a priori argument is.”
I’m learning with ”your”…
”The Ontological Argument is a good example of an a priori argument.
A priori is a term first used by Immanuel Kant and it means “from the beginning” or “at first”. It is a type of argument based on the meaning of terms. It describes things we can know independently of the facts. To know something a priori is to know it from pure logic, without having to gather any evidence. For example, you can know that triangles have three sides without having to examine any actual triangles and count their sides..
Kant refers to the knowledge gained from this sort of argument as analytical knowledge – it isan improved understanding of what the premises in the argument mean, rather than knowledge based on experience.”
https://philosophydungeon.weebly.com/a-priori-arguments.html
”Nope. The claim under contention is natural selection being a causal mechanism. If it were merely differential survival and reproduction of the organism, there would be no argument.
”It CAN’T be a cause of new species nor trait fixation, as Fodor has shown. Nothing you’re saying refutes the argument.”
His argument is a fallacy, idiot!!!
”NS cannot be causal to evolution because MANY of our phenotypic traits are non-adaptive”
Many is not the same as all…
This observation that other scientists had already done does not prove that NS cannot be causal to evolution.
This just shows that the model where only primarily adaptive traits could be transmitted was a simplistic model.
In fact, it is important to have a mutational load within a population so that it can readapt if necessary.
“His argument is a fallacy, idiot!!!”
No its not. Empirical evidence is irrelevant to a priori arguments.
Unfortunately the rest of your comment is incoherent nonsense. You say I’m a waste of time, yet you write incoherent bullshit all the while talking shit about me. Hilarious.
Retarded keep repeating the same simplistic comments like a robot with defect.
Most of my comments towards your pseudo science propaganda is on point. That’s why you cant counterargue them but also because you are dumb.
You are expecting your opponent will fall in your dishonesty but it doesnt work with me.
If you are really knowledgeable on all these subjects you would show up a high degree of reasoning’s freedom, using a non formal or pedantic language and without being so dependent on these “laws” determined by your master. But not.
NS is not only selective event which can happen. A population can have a changing on its selective patterns without the elimination of the contextually unfit. Actually what i already said, there is a intensity variation of NS in the way famous examples of significant phenotypical change likely due NS tend to be more an exception than a rule.
There is no “pseudoscience propaganda” what the hell are you talking about. I’ve explained the argument at length above. It’s pointless to continue to explain it. You’re not saying anything that addresses Fodor’s argument.
If NS is a causal mechanism, then it can distinguish between causes and correlates of causes. NS can’t distinguish between causes and correlates of causes. Therefore NS isn’t a causal mechanism.
Refute away.
“process”
The one thing evolution deniers don’t unnuhstan.
genes regulate metabolism in development.
regulate is feedback between energy use and growth.
this is where the nitch comes from:
the ability to grow into an environment.
it takes moderate intelligence to understand.
norbert wiener understood: he was 170.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics
Lol thats so cute hes using Mugabes words.
We should poll biologists and ask them how many believe in NS and poll analytical philosophers and ask them the same question.
I guarantee the majority of both groups would say yes. Fodor’s views are fringe among analytical philosophers
rr thinks that biologists think that ToNS explains why the function P: DNA ⟶ phenotype is what it is.
no biologist thinks that. no biologist has ever thought that. rr has autism.
rr thinks that biologists think that ToNS explains why the function
is what it is.
no biologist thinks that. no biologist has ever thought that. rr has autism.
just call ToNS “population genetics” and realize biologists don’t use their words the way anal philosophers do. then STFU!
Lets stop calling them philosophers. Lets start calling them pedants.
“pedant”?
you have autism.
they’re WAAAAAAY worse than pedants.
ban pill!
he’s too stupid and dishonest to comment here.
he’s half jewish half indian.
obviously.
WRONG!
ANAL PHILOSOPHY NEEDS TO BE TREATED IN THE SAME WAY THE NAZIS WERE…
THERE NEED TO BE NUREMBERG TRIALS…
THEY NEED TO PAY RAPARATIONS!
*raparations
what black men need to pay wywomen.
*RAPARATIONS.
WHAT BLACK MEN NEED TO PAY WYWOMEN.
i apologize.
it’s just that pill promotes TYT and steve sailer. i believe the former is corrupt and i believe the latter is a mossad agent.
and he’s always picking on the LOADED personality.
RR keeps saying that NS has to ground counterfactuals… he is assuming that NS has to show that every change in a population must be beneficial to be selected, which isn’t what NS is required to do. It’s probabilistic towards fitness, not deterministic.
Drift says that “change happens”. NS says that “there are constraints on change… the organism has to be able to survive.” The end result is that if one is to believe that competition increases as the number and type of organisms increases and time passes, survival will prove more and more difficult (and more types of organisms will have had the opportunity to exist). Therefore, traits that survive will have to be fit in a more and more specific way. They will have to fit a more specific niche and so have to be developed in a more specific way, or they will have to be useful in more niches. That’s why organisms appear “adapted” in a very specific way.
P1: Not all changes to an organism, all else being equal, will allow the organism to survive and reproduce.
P2: In practice, genetic drift sometimes causes an organism to die, and sometimes to live.
C: The survival of some genetically drifted individuals and populations (especially over time) is called natural selection.
NS is posited as a causal mechanism. Your argument is merely repeating the claims of neo-Darwinists who push natural selection. No one disagrees that organisms are what is selected, i would hope. That’s not under contention. What IS under contention is the claim that natural selection is the mechanism by which traits become fixated in biological populations and also the creation of new species.
P1) Niches are individuated post hoc by reference to the phenotypes that live in said niche.
P2) If the organisms weren’t there, the niche would not be there either.
C) Therefore there is no fitness of phenotypes to lifestyles that explain said adaptation.
It’s typical from sophisticated pseudo philosophy, specially from left wing inclination, give enormous importance to the word but this wordcare is sheer theatrical. In humanities, we are literally trained to choice difficult or rare words to “enrich” our works (when i graduated on it) or to filll the intrinsic emptyness of most of them.
it used to be when i was in school avoiding repetition was the reason to use synonyms.
and as vos savant has observed using sesquapedalia just to use them makes you sound dumb.
the reason to use words you believe your reader may be unfamiliar with is because:
1. you’re not trying. these are just the words that come to mind. looking for an alternative expression is too much effort.
see william f. buckley.
2. you’re trying to say things SUCCINCTLY/ with CONCISION/ CONCINNITY.
expressing subtle and complex ideas in words everyone knows can actually IMPAIR communication as the constructions become so much LONGER and so much more GRAMMATICALLY complex. while at the same time becoming LESS PRECISE.
“NS is posited as a causal mechanism. Your argument is merely repeating the claims of neo-Darwinists who push natural selection. No one disagrees that organisms are what is selected, i would hope. That’s not under contention. ”
NS is not a “causal mechanism”, it is a tautology. It doesn’t “cause” things, it describes the truth. Much as math or logic describes reality without necessarily causing it.
“What IS under contention is the claim that natural selection is the mechanism by which traits become fixated in biological populations and also the creation of new species.”
Unfortunately besides blind chance and intentionality there really isn’t any other mechanisms to explain trait fixation. Even if you want to claim the whole environment or developmental system is inherited all you are going to find is combination of randomness, intentionality, or NS at those other levels than genetics.
“NS is not a causal mechanism.”
Unfortunately that claim is ubiquitous in the literature. A simple Scholar search will show you that.
“Even if you want to claim the whole environment or developmental system is inherited all you are going to find is combination of randomness, intentionality, or NS at those other levels than genetics.”
Developmental systems theorists have shown that too—basically the environment is inherited too. Again, NS can’t be that mechanism, since it can’t distinguish between correlated traits so it doesn’t explain which trait moved to fixation, so if it doesn’t explain it then it doesn’t predict it. Merely stating that NS HAS to be the mechanism to explain trait fixation doesn’t make it true, since Fodor’s argument is sound.
Mugabe,
Some years ago when i think i was a great writer i used to write in very fancy and intuitive way but also consciously chosing rare words i knew and even those i was not sure. When i just accepted my real level in writing skills i gradually stopped with this bullshit, specially about my poetry.
“NS is not a “causal mechanism”, it is a tautology.”
Yeah, that’s what Fodor is saying. ToNS is not a real theory because it doesn’t predict anything. It’s just a mere truism.
Well survival of the fittest is a mere tautalogy because fitness is largely defined as survival so it’s essentially just saying survival of survivors. But ToNS is much more substantive in that it predicted both cresationism and Lamarckism would be debunked.
RR never will change his views because everyone here know he has been subjected to intense self indoctrination. Even his arguments are basically the same since before the new year, actually way way older. Still think, why debate with someone who actually don’t want to debate??
Bad writing
Extreme dogmatism/dishonesty
Pretending know more about fields he is not even specialized
“Developmental systems theorists have shown that too—basically the environment is inherited too”.
I could bet high that they don’t, specially for humans/mammals.
“Developmental systems theorists” (leftwing dogmatic activists pretending being Scientists who hate neodarwinism theory because they fear ‘eugenics’ and social darwinism and also because is very confortable working inside academia and with minded-like people).
Theorists?? Or hypothetizers??
Best way to explain things in didatic way
By metaphor
Or
Exemplification
How an “environment” whatever it is can be “inherited”???
Using metaphor to explain something more “concrete”, as a mean to an end = good
Using implicitly metaphorical language like “we inherited environment too” = bad
What do you inherited from environments RR??? (I hope you answer some of my questions in direct way, actually answering them).
“Again, NS can’t be that mechanism, since it can’t distinguish between correlated traits so it doesn’t explain which trait moved to fixation, so if it doesn’t explain it then it doesn’t predict it.”
It’s a false condition for its validity. It’s so confusely constructed i need to read twice or more to understand which could be a simple sentence.
RR mastered this skill, write in overlabored way but pretending it is a superior writing.
Even some of the earlier examples observed by Darwin like different bird species in Galapagos archipelago are sounding explanatory.
While original Darwin/Wallace theories were not “perfect”, implicit and explicit (left wing) neolamarckists found an efficient way to make these gaps look giant holes at the point to supposedly invalidate most of their own basis.
“Merely stating that NS HAS to be the mechanism to explain trait fixation doesn’t make it true, since Fodor’s argument is sound”
Again a mostly empty sentence.
“Merely stating that i don’t believe NS has to be the mechanism to explain trait fixation doesn’t make it and Fodor argument true”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/30/origin-of-the-species-where-did-darwins-finches-come-from
This
“We inherited environment too”
Use a really precise language like
“At the long term, we ‘inherited’ environment too” (actually acquire generally some locally-adaptive traits mostly by differential selective pressure or readapt the available ones)
“But ToNS is much more substantive in that it predicted both cresationism and Lamarckism would be debunked.”
Too bad there has been a resurgence in neo-Lamarckist ideas, like Jablonka and Lamb’s and Denis Noble’s works.
Epigenetic tagging is induced by the environment and they can be inherited so that’s how environment is inherited too.
“RR never will change his views because everyone here know he has been subjected to intense self indoctrination.”
What nonsense. I changed from hereditarianism to DST. You know absolutely nothing of my changing of my views over the years. I will change my views with sufficient evidence and arguments. Fact of the matter is, neo-Darwinism is a debunked theory.
”What nonsense. I changed from hereditarianism to DST. You know absolutely nothing of my changing of my views over the years. I will change my views with sufficient evidence and arguments. Fact of the matter is, neo-Darwinism is a debunked theory.”
Because you’re a stupid.
Your wordplay doesn’t convince me.
you were a dumb neo-Darwinist.
now you’re a dumber neo-Lamarckist.
The biggest problem here is still you.
You changed your point of view 7 years ago…
You make people waste their time with your stupidity.
Nobody cares if you change your point of view, you’ll still be dumb.
”SUFFICIENT-EVIDENCE”
….
…
….
….
”Fact of the matter is, neo-Darwinism is a debunked theory”
That’s just your dumb opinion and of your dead jew.
”Epigenetic tagging is induced by the environment and they can be inherited so that’s how environment is inherited too.”
When you’re not using fancy words, the best you can is write these short sentences.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05445-5
”Genetic inheritance alone cannot fully explain why we look like our parents. In addition to genes, we inherit from our parents the environment and culture, which were partly built by previous generations. A specific form of environment is our mother’s womb, which we are exposed to during the first 9 months of our lives. The maternal environment can have lasting effects on our health. In the Dutch famine winter, for example, severe malnutrition affected pregnant women, their unborn children, and their children’s fetal germ cells. The increased incidence of cardiovascular and metabolic diseases seen in adults is not due to the transmission of epigenetic information through the maternal germline, but a direct consequence of exposure in utero, a phenomenon termed “fetal programming” or – whether fetal germ cells and offspring is affected – “intergenerational inheritance”.
I don’t have a need to write more than “short sentences” when I’m writing a comment, especially to you. You said I would “never change my vires”, well I did. You said “RR never will change his views” because I’ve “been subjected to intense self indoctrination”—this is straight up bullshit. I write on my blog at least once every few weeks, and there you can see why I have the views I do and why I rail so hard against hereditarianism. You can also shut the fuck up and not comment to me.
You can latch on to one critical review or you could broaden your horizons and read Jablonka and Meloni.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/598822
https://academic.oup.com/eep/article/4/2/dvy019/5062886
Again, go off, I guess.
Maybe the last actual philosopher with good work was Rawls or Soros’ teacher Popper. Everything since then has been basically arguing about the dictionary.
As I first proposed here many years ago I don’t think thats an accident. I think Master picks autist clowns to succeed in academia for the express purpose of muzzling his opponents and tying them up in retarded debates with retarded people.
mugabe: you see this wood sculpture here.
fodor: yes.
mugabe: can you name the sculptor.
fodor: sculptors don’t exist. sculpting is not a mechanism for producing sculptures.
mugabe: you sound dumb. why do you say that.
fodor: because the sculptor didn’t make the tree the wood comes from. and no one can make a rocket ship out of wood.
mugabe: have you heard of aristotle’s four causes: material, final, formal, efficient.
fodor: never heard of them. what’s wrong with my argument and why?
mugabe: the answer was Tilman Riemenschneider.
fodor: see. he had intention. so how did he make a tree?
mugabe: okay. that’s enough. [redacted by pp, 2023-03-03]
Fodor: NS is not possible because when an organism change from its previous niche it doesn’t readapt completely to the new one and because i think neodarwinists believe NS cannot being discreet.
Santor: is it?
Remind me my comment about natural retention but it’s just fragmented thoughts.
mugabe: who said that sculptors have to make trees.
fodor: [looking confused] what do you mean? i defined it in my argument. what’s wrong with my argument and why?
mugabe: but does any one else define it that way?
fodor: however i define the word “sculptor” is what the word “sculptor” means to everyone who uses the word “sculptor”.
mugabe: okay. you know what happens now right?
You can’t predict what I will say next.
Languages does not exist.
(prediction is mechanism)
The most interesting about it is that when someone counterargue about a well stablished theory he need to come up with a new theory to replace the one he is basically condemning. Would be interesting to read a hypothetical “Fodorism” but it seems he just claimed that NS is not conceptually possible even being proven empirically in many specific cases, thought.
material cause: why is life even possible? why has it taken the form it’s taken? on this planet at least? why? P
formal cause: the image if P
efficient cause: of all the members of the image of P why the ones we see and not others?
formal cause: there is none. not as far as professors of biology are concerned.
brought to you by Pfizer! and anthony fauci!
material cause: why is life even possible? why has it taken the form it’s taken? on this planet at least? why? P
formal cause: the image of P
efficient cause: of all the members of the image of P why the ones we see and not others?
formal cause: there is none. not as far as professors of biology are concerned.
sponsored by Pfizer.
image(P) = {y | y = P(x); x ∈ set of all (VIABLE) genotypes}
but you can’t make predictions with that?
therefore it’s not a “mechanism”.
what i believe is that if something happens 99 out of a hundred times then its probably a fluke that it didnt happen a hundred times out of a hundred times.
like i think if anything happens just twice in an exact same way then it refers to the truth behind things.
VIABLE is a technical term meaning: does the genome even “make it to term”? is it ever born? almost all possible genomes are just nonsense which wouldn’t make an embryo let alone one that could be born.
Yes, NS explains that out of all possible traits, only certain ones would be enhancing to fitness or not detracting from it to the point of death. RR and Fodor act like NS has to include a description of why specific traits are fixated and not others beyond the tautological level (it has to “cause” organisms to be fit… whatever that would mean for an inert mechanism).
They keep asking NS to work as if it already knew the answer. Nothing but a mind would already “know” the answer and cause it to happen.