It’s a common view among Afrocentrists that the black skinned aboriginals of much of Oceania and South Asia are part of the same black race as sub-Saharan Africans. Educated people tend to dismiss this as absurd pseudoscience because if you look at the modern human branch of the phylogenetic tree below, you’ll notice that Africans are anything but related to Oceanians.
Notice how the African man and the Oceanian woman (pictured below) are the two most distantly related living modern people on the above tree, even though they’re the two who look the most alike.
And notice how the East Asian woman and the Oceanian woman are the two most closely related living modern people on the above tree, even though they’re the two who look the least alike and have evolved to opposite climate extremes.
Before scientists knew about DNA, they would have grouped the Oceanian with the African which makes a lot more sense intuitively, and yet today we’re told by academic elites to ignore our instincts and listen to the DNA. This is a classic example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and when it comes to DNA, even experts know only enough to draw the wrong taxonomic conclusions.
It turns out that although genetic similarity is a good measure of how recently you shared a common ancestor with someone, it’s a poor measure of how much you resemble them biologically. The reason is, evolution needn’t change very much of the genome to create a new race, or even a radically new kind of species, yet at the same time, huge changes in millions of trivial parts of the genome have virtually no effect. As Scientific American notes “the secret is to have rapid change occur in sites where those changes make an important difference in an organism’s functioning.”
So my humble advice for biologists is to forget all about genetic similarity when grouping organisms into taxanomic categories like species, genus, or even race, and instead just look at morphology like they used to in the 19th century, because attempts to sort life forms by DNA leads to absurdity. Take the phylogenetic tree above: notice that one of the earliest modern humans (mitochondrial Eve pictured below) is closer on the tree to homo heidelbergensis (a sub-human primate pictured to Eve’s right, below) than she is to the living modern women from East Asia and Oceania, even though the latter are part of her species and the former is not.
This is because genetic similarity, especially neutral genetic similarity (genes that are not selected for) serves as a molecular clock telling us how long since two individuals shared a common ancestor, but it tells us little about how much of the actual phenotype of that common ancestor they both still share genetically. It’s the latter that should be used to group organisms into taxonomic categories, not the former.
Failing to grasp this concept is leading to all kinds of absurdities. Many years ago I was horrified to learn that many scientists are now classifying humans as a type of ape. I know humans are primates, but surely we’re not apes. We don’t swing from trees, or have fur, or prognathous faces, and unlike apes, we speak, walk on two legs, write novels, use computers and go to the moon. Surely there’s a quantum leap between humans and apes and no one with any common sense would put us in that category.
“Nope,” said the scientists, “we’re apes. We’re close to them of the phylogenetic tree.”
“Yes,” I tried to explain, “but that’s only because we share an ancestor with them recently. The phylogenetic tree only measures time since divergence, it doesn’t measure how much meaningful change occurred in that time.”
According to the famous pediatrician Hans Asperger, a dash of autism is needed to be a good scientist, but with autism comes communication difficulties and a lack of social awareness, and classifying humans as apes is a linguistic travesty that discredits the entire field of biology.

One of these things is not like the others
Another borderline autistic decision occurred when scientists decided to classify birds as dinosaurs, once again focusing myopically on the phylogenetic tree and ignoring the amount of meaningful change that has occurred between the two types of animals.
This article really made me change the way I view human development. Good job.
Thank you so much!
Pumpkin is a very sophisticated thinker. This post makes sense intuitively but a few commenters on this blog disagree with him (for some reason…)
Gondwona, just because something makes ‘intuitive sense’ means everyone here should buy it? No one denies that PP is a sophisticated thinker. No one denies he’s a smart guy. But he has some gross misconceptions about biology—because he has no science background.
You don’t have a science background either RR. G-man actually does & he agrees with me.
Gondwana what is your background in science? Is it in biology?
Hold on…when did I say I have a science background??? I have two social science degrees… Bachelor’s and Master’s…
to GM,
“Pumpkin is a very sophisticated thinker. This post makes sense intuitively but a few commenters on this blog disagree with him (for some reason…)”
That reason, in my case at least, is that we live in a world of an updated scientific method and data beyond making free formed interpretations.
See my for what that actually looks like for this topic on human phenotypical variation and modern data. Sketetal traits are the best to work with since it is used to point out traits with fossils linking them to modern animals for instance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_anatomy
Keep in mind, this isn’t him proposing a idea..this is someone, with few and shoddy sources, actually advocating for modern scientists to go back in time to a weaker interpretation on macro races than what was actually proposed just prior to genetics.
That’s like if I point out how we can technically make elements (though temporarily) and say to chemistry, “fuck it, we had it right at alchemy”, and ignoring the principal of it being impossible through chemical combinations like in Alchemy.
To PP,
The reason why “Hiedi and Eve” were so close was because of the inconsistency of the picture placement.
For example, my links on phylograms either had the labels of organisms on the lines or at the upper endpoints, these two are both in this Phylogram. Where did you even get it?
So either Eve should be on the point above of Heidi on the line below as Eve is positioned are her own.
For example, my links on phylograms either had the labels of organisms on the lines or at the upper endpoints, these two are both in this Phylogram. Where did you even get it?
I found the tree on the internet but I added the pictures. Labels/pictures only go at the upper endpoint if they refer to living things or things that were recently living (i.e. Neanderthals) because these genetic trees serve roughly as chronologies where the higher you are on the tree, the more recently you existed in time.
“I found the tree on the internet but I added the pictures.”
Well you see, that’s the problem.
“Labels/pictures only go at the upper endpoint if they refer to living things or things that were recently living (i.e. Neanderthals) because these genetic trees serve roughly as chronologies where the higher you are on the tree, the more recently you existed in time.”
Good explanation, but apply it next time as I’ve shown that your inconsistency hurts you.
Again, this would be accomplished by putting Hiedi on the line below it, but if you have no room, than place Eve at the point where different Sapiens diverge as Eve and the Neanderthals do with Hiedi.
Again, this would be accomplished by putting Hiedi on the line below it, but if you have no room, than place Eve at the point where different Sapiens diverge as Eve and the Neanderthals do with Hiedi.
I put Heidi right at the split between modern humans and Neanderthals because it’s thought to be the common ancestor of both. I put Eve a little before the human races diverged because she’s thought to have lived more than 100,000 years before modern humans left Africa.
“I put Heidi right at the split between modern humans and Neanderthals because it’s thought to be the common ancestor of both.”
Alright.
“I put Eve a little before the human races diverged because she’s thought to have lived more than 100,000 years before modern humans left Africa.”
Err, no. That split that is shared by Mongoloids, Australoids, and Caucasians would be Non-Africans if we are to use Hiedi as standard in doing this since she still was a common ancestor.
But to be specific, she would be the ancestor of BMH, AMH, but due to the absence of that specific type her variation would still suffice essentially being an ancient H. Sapiens.
To distinguish AMH as the 120K expanders, you should’ve made split close below the second 60-80k expanders. They would be closer to Modern Humans than heidi regardless.
Still she would’ve closer to that actual common ancestor than she would to Heidi, so the point is this is merely your interpretation of a phylogram than one constructed through careful experts.
Err, no. That split that is shared by Mongoloids, Australoids, and Caucasians would be Non-Africans if we are to use Hiedi as standard in doing this since she still was a common ancestor.
Eve lived before the split between Africans and non-Africans so I placed her lower on the tree than those splits, which makes sense.
“Eve lived before the split between Africans and non-Africans so I placed her lower on the tree than those splits, which makes sense.”
1. And Hiedelbergensis lived 200-300k prior to the split between humans and neanderthals yet you still place it as the common ancestor regardless.
2. This goes into another inconsistency as Eve isn’t a BMH, she is a AMH as I’ve said before. A group of AMH at 120K left Africa to the Levant as OOA 1 as opposed to OOA two.
Therefore, if you wanted to be specific with the specimen, you should’ve highlighted that migration and place here as a common ancestor for that group of human two slightly below humans, as that was at best 50k prior to the migration of non-Africans.
Thus as a common ancestor for Non Africans and Africans, use a BMH specimen.
Look, lets not prolong this. You’ve explained that this is not by any means an officially constructed Phylogram and I’ve explained with actual knowledged of hominid history and a phylogram as reference why it would make no sense why chronologically speaking Eve would be closer to Heidi on Neutral DNA.
Phil it’s hard to pin down exact dates because of unreliability in dating, but it seems that Eve lived very close in time to late Heidi:
“The African Homo heidelbergensis (Homo rhodesiensis) population evolved into Homo sapiens approximately 130,000 years ago”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_heidelbergensis
“Mitochondrial Eve lived later than Homo heidelbergensis and the emergence of Homo neanderthalensis, but earlier than the out of Africa migration,[2] but her age is not known with certainty; a 2009 estimate cites an age between c. 152 and 234 thousand years ago (95% CI);[3] a 2013 study cites a range of 99–148 thousand years ago.[4]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
If anything my diagram may have underestimated how close they are because our ancestors probably continued to be Heidi long after they split from the ancestors of Neanderthals.
“Phil it’s hard to pin down exact dates because of unreliability in dating, but it seems that Eve lived very close in time to late Heidi:
“The African Homo heidelbergensis (Homo rhodesiensis) population evolved into Homo sapiens approximately 130,000 years ago”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_heidelbergensis”
There is a differences between Rhodey and the actual Hiedi that we share with Neanderthals.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/virtual-fossil-reveals-last-common-ancestor-of-humans-and-neanderthals
People contend that the ones in Europe would be for Neanderthals, the ones in Africas for Sapiens.
“Mitochondrial Eve lived later than Homo heidelbergensis and the emergence of Homo neanderthalensis, but earlier than the out of Africa migration,[2] but her age is not known with certainty; a 2009 estimate cites an age between c. 152 and 234 thousand years ago (95% CI);[3] a 2013 study cites a range of 99–148 thousand years ago.[4]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve”
Still, the split happened 700k, the general range from studies from us would be atr best around 200k, so no dice to your suggestion.
“If anything my diagram may have underestimated how close they are because our ancestors probably continued to be Heidi long after they split from the ancestors of Neanderthals.”
Yet the basic chronology would disagree. You are now talking about what they phenotypically versus your original point of being similar on neutral despite physical differences.
There is a differences between Rhodey and the actual Hiedi that we share with Neanderthals.
Yes I know that Phil, but it strengthens my point not yours. What I’m saying is that instead of putting Hiedi at the split from Neanderthals, I could have put Rhodey to the left of the split and even closer to Eve. The point is there is less time separating Eve from her most recent Rhodey ancestor than there is separating you from Eve.
Still, the split happened 700k, the general range from studies from us would be atr best around 200k, so no dice to your suggestion.
Even if the human-Neanderthal split occurred 700 K ago (unlikely), Hedi continued to exist in Africa in the form of Rhodey long after that, so there’s no question that there is less time separating Eve from her most recent Rhodey ancestor than there is separating you from Eve.
Yet the basic chronology would disagree. You are now talking about what they phenotypically versus your original point of being similar on neutral despite physical differences.
No I’m not. I’m saying since Eve was closer in time to Rhodey than you are to Eve, those two are also closer in neutral DNA.
“Yet the basic chronology would disagree. You are now talking about what they phenotypically versus your original point of being similar on neutral despite physical differences.”
I mean to say “what they phenoptyically looked like”. Anyway, The point still doesn’t make sense as you are mixing Rhodey with the Heidi that we share with neanderthals.
“Yes I know that Phil, but it strengthens my point not yours. What I’m saying is that instead of putting Hiedi at the split from Neanderthals, I could have put Rhodey to the left of the split and even closer to Eve. The point is there is less time separating Eve from her most recent Rhodey ancestor than there is separating you from Eve.”
Fair enough when you adjust for specific variants of hominids, but there are still problems with your taxonomy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens_idaltu
For instance, this would be the type of hominid Rhodey would’ve evolved into directly, and as you can see compared to Rhodey (Kabwe), it’s not that big of a jump in phenotype as you would see with Eve.
https://nutcrackerman.com/2015/04/07/meet-bodo-and-herto/
Why? Because due to female neotony, the differences between females are less stark compared to males, you can even see it with comparing ape skulls.
https://www.google.com/search?q=kabwe+skull%27&safe=strict&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&biw=1366&bih=654&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHqsrB1sLSAhXoxlQKHX0UDDEQ_AUIBigB#safe=strict&tbm=isch&q=different+ape+skulls+bone+clones+female&*&imgrc=uXep6lcisiv0lM:
However if you did a male female comparison as you did, it would be amplified.
“Even if the human-Neanderthal split occurred 700 K ago (unlikely)”
Explain
“Hedi continued to exist in Africa in the form of Rhodey long after that, so there’s no question that there is less time separating Eve from her most recent Rhodey ancestor than there is separating you from Eve.”
Actually no, Rhodey persisting only tells us how long that species lived in Africa as was found with Homo Erectus.
Peter Frost talked about that topic.
“No I’m not. I’m saying since Eve was closer in time to Rhodey than you are to Eve, those two are also closer in neutral DNA.”
Yet it’s time to put that in context as the common ancestor actually would be approximate in morphology to between Heidi and Erectus, not Hiedi itself.
http://www.nature.com/news/oldest-ancient-human-dna-details-dawn-of-neanderthals-1.19557
So technically Rhodey would be between the split of the LCA with neanderthals and us.
So When you consider the actually small overt morphology gap between Idaltu (best immediate ancestors of us) and Rhodey then it makes more sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
then when you consider the latest research on Eve’s date in within the intervals of about 120K and 156k, and Idaltu appeared roughtly 200k, she would be closer to Idaltu but closer to us than Rhodey.
The scientific consensus is that Eve was a modern human and that Rhodesian Man was a different species. And Eve is not even considered the first modern human (many came before her). So the bottom line is that earliest modern humans were closer chronologically (and thus probably in neutral DNA, assuming a relatively constant mutation rate) to a different species, than they are to today’s members of their own species.
Furthermore PP,
Something not taken in consideration is that this Eve reconstruction appears to be based on a 90-115k skull, not the actual designated Eve herself (of course not).
https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/reconstructed-eve.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skhul_and_Qafzeh_hominids#Qafzeh_9_and_10
So the specimen of this likeness, on neutral DNA, would be closer to Modern humans than Rhodey.
http://ma.prehistoire.free.fr/qafzeh9.htm
So again, I’m correct.
Not following you Phil. Are you arguing Eve was not a modern human?
To PP,
No, what I’m saying is that this reconstruction wasn’t built with the intention of representing what we knew of Eve’s hominid variant, but was based on a AMH specimen at a time frame where it would be closer to us on neutral DNA.
So in other words, that picture isn’t actually “Eve” to begin with, it’s someone of a significantly different time frame.
If you meant my talk on eve in relation to Rhodey, to summarize
1. The actual ancestor to Rhodey was actually said to be in between erectus and Hiedi in morphology (see added link).
2. Rhodey thus lies between that ancestor and Humans.
3. The actual creature beyond Rhodey, Idaltu at 200k, doesn’t share that big of a phenotype jump as you made out with with the reconstruction, which would likely be due to females in primates being more neotonic thus gender would have to be the same to make valid comparisons of reconstructions.
Thus, keeping the latest dates in mind for Eve, I said she would be closest to Idaltu but closer to us than to Rhodey. Looking again though, the estimates allow for a equi-distances.
4. Doing more research on the background of the reconstruction you used for Eve, it was actually of a different specimen that clocks closer to our time than to Rhodey development to Idaltu.
So technically we do not know what Eve actually looked like but chances are it wouldn;t be as distanct as Quafzeh 9
“The scientific consensus is that Eve was a modern human and that Rhodesian Man was a different species. And Eve is not even considered the first modern human (many came before her). So the bottom line is that earliest modern humans were closer chronologically (and thus probably in neutral DNA, assuming a relatively constant mutation rate) to a different species, than they are to today’s members of their own species.”
Yet you pointed out phenotype as well as supporting your claim with divergenece when in actuality she actually was likely not as different as you would claim.
THAT I disagree with.
Before scientists knew about DNA, they would have grouped the Oceanian with the African
Nonsense. They didn’t.
The whole post is silly. Taxonomy is based on ancestry, not superficial appearance.
Nonsense. They didn’t.
Many did.
Taxonomy is based on ancestry, not superficial appearance.
No it should be based on genetically PRESERVING the PHENOTYPE of a common ancestor. What relevance is having the same ancestor as a fish if you evolve into a land animal? And appearance isn’t superficial. Things look alike on the outside because they ARE alike on the inside.
Just because you had an ancestor doesn’t mean you didn’t mutate in between you muppet.
How do you think evolution happens, 100% transfer of genes?
There’s a lot of genetic ripping even as we live and interact with the environment.
Hence homosexuality.
YEARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Primary school teacher : How do we call the science of classifying living things ?
Pupil & future HYP bachelor : Racism.
“So my humble advice for biologists is to forget all about genetic similarity when grouping organisms into taxanomic categories like species, genus, or even race, and instead just look at morphology like they used to in the 19th century, because attempts to sort life forms by DNA leads to absurdity. Take the phylogenetic tree above: notice that one of the earliest modern humans (mitochondrial Eve pictured below) is closer on the tree to homo heidelbergensis (a sub-human primate pictured to Eve’s right, below) than she is to the living modern women from East Asia and Oceania, even though the latter are part of her species and the former is not.”
…..
Please provide the original phylogeny you used before you added those pictures.
“Another borderline autistic decision occurred when scientists decided to classify birds as dinosaurs, once again focusing myopically on the phylogenetic tree and ignoring the amount of meaningful change that has occurred between the two types of animals.”
Because they’re a group of theropods that evolved during the Mesozoic.
http://figures.boundless-cdn.com/19656/full/figure-39-03-01ab.jpe
Hmmm
Remember:
I analyze a number of widespread misconceptions concerning species. The species category, defined by a concept, denotes the rank of a species taxon in the Linnaean hierarchy. Biological species are reproducing isolated from each other, which protects the integrity of their genotypes. Degree of morphological difference is not an appropriate species definition. Unequal rates of evolution of different characters and lack of information on the mating potential of isolated populations are the major difficulties in the demarcation of species taxa.
http://darwiniana.org/mayrspecies.htm
Humans are apes.
As I’m sure you know PP, we have 23 chromosomes because 2 ape chromosome fused, giving us 23.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Chromosome_2_(human)
At least you’re correct here, using phylas in regards to relatedness (one of the reasons why we have phylas).
And they didn’t classify Oceanic people as Negroid before DNA.
Please provide the original phylogeny you used before you added those pictures.
Why?
Because they’re a group of theropods that evolved during the Mesozoic.
I’m not suggesting they having nothing in common, but they’ve been grouped with dinosaurs because they’re phylogenetically related, not because they’re biologically similar:
I analyze a number of widespread misconceptions concerning species. The species category, defined by a concept, denotes the rank of a species taxon in the Linnaean hierarchy. Biological species are reproducing isolated from each other, which protects the integrity of their genotypes.
I already explained to you that this is outdated thinking. It’s now known that primate species that have been separated by as much as 2 million years can still produce fertile offspring.
Humans are apes.
Wrong! Definition of ape:
monkey; especially
:
one of the larger tailless or short-tailed Old World forms
b
:
any of various large tailless semi-erect primates of Africa and southeastern Asia (such as the chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, or gibbon) —called also anthropoid, anthropoid ape —
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ape
As I’m sure you know PP, we have 23 chromosomes because 2 ape chromosome fused, giving us 23.
What’s your point RR?
At least you’re correct here, using phylas in regards to relatedness (one of the reasons why we have phylas).
My use of phylas is ALWAYS correct, this is just the first time you’ve understood it.
And they didn’t classify Oceanic people as Negroid before DNA.
Many scientists did. Where do you think the term Negrito comes from?
“Why?”
Why not?
“I’m not suggesting they having nothing in common, but they’ve been grouped with dinosaurs because they’re phylogenetically related, not because they’re biologically similar:”
Bird are dinosaurs not just because they evolved from dinosaurs, but because they are more closely related to some of the extinct dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are to each other! So next time that someone tells you that dinosaurs are extinct, you can tell them that, actually, there are probably more species of dinosaur alive today than there were in the Mesozoic!”
http://paleocave.sciencesortof.com/2013/06/why-are-birds-dinosaurs/
“I already explained to you that this is outdated thinking. It’s now known that primate species that have been separated by as much as 2 million years can still produce fertile offspring.”
You keep saying this, provide citations. And that still wouldn’t kill the BSC, as it’s the most accepted definition of the word species.
“Wrong! Definition of ape:”
Humans are genetically and morphologically similar to great apes, we’re classified with them. Apes are Hominidae. We are Hominidae.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
“What’s your point RR?”
Chromosomal fusion=humans.
“My use of phylas is ALWAYS correct, this is just the first time you’ve understood it.”
lol
“Many scientists did. Where do you think the term Negrito comes from?”
It comes from Spanish missionaries to the Philippines in the 1500s.
Why not?
Because my time is too valuable to look for something without a reason to do so.
Bird are dinosaurs not just because they evolved from dinosaurs, but because they are more closely related to some of the extinct dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are to each other!
Exactly my point RR. Modern taxonomy uses monophyletic groupings to categorize life forms, so ALL descendants of a common ancestor get group into the same category even if some of them have evolved into a totally different type of organism. Classifying birds as dinosaurs and humans as apes is an example of this method. The most recent common ancestor that all dinosaurs share is also shared by birds, so birds get grouped with dinosaurs, even though they’re not dinosaurs. Similarly, most recent common ancestor that all apes share is also shared by humans, so humans get grouped with apes, even though they’re not apes. I am simply criticizing this method of classification because it defies common sense.
You keep saying this, provide citations. And that still wouldn’t kill the BSC, as it’s the most accepted definition of the word species.
The important point, with respect to interbreeding of species, is that hominin species separated by several million years of divergence can still produce fertile hybrid offspring.
:
http://rafonda.com/interbreeding_between_species.html
Applying your definition of species means countless species needs to be re-defined because they don’t conform to that criterion. Makes more sense to just reject the definition as too strict, though it might make a good definition for a higher taxonomic level such as genus.
Humans are genetically and morphologically similar to great apes, we’re classified with them. Apes are Hominidae. We are Hominidae.
We are genetically similar in the genes that don’t matter; we are wildly different in the few genes that do. We are related to apes but we belong in a separate category from them because they all share an appearance and behavior that we do not, and the differences are stark.
It comes from Spanish missionaries to the Philippines in the 1500s.
Morton classified australoid skulls as Negroid. Where did Oceanians fit in the ancient three race model (Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid) if they weren’t Negroid?
Maybe this three race model is an outdated prescientific one ? Better yet, maybe race is an outdated prescientific notion ? Think about it… Australoids were discovered by europeans very recently.
Then you’ll agree affirmative action is an outdated prescientific notion and you should self deport.
Send in the ambulance again.
“Because my time is too valuable to look for something without a reason to do so.”
Your time is too valuable? I can tell you made that. I know you have the original link. Your reason to do so is because I asked you to provide the original phylogeny. Is that not reason enough? If you make a claim and I said ‘Source?’ would you say that your time is ‘too valuable to look for something’ when I cannot find the source for your claim?
“The important point, with respect to interbreeding of species, is that hominin species separated by several million years of divergence can still produce fertile hybrid offspring.”
lol this guy is one of those Out of Australia-ers:
On my view, Africans are a hybrid population, created by the interbreeding of Eurasian sapiens with H. erectus, just as the Australians were.
http://rafonda.com/html/australian_ancestry.html
There is no evidence for this. There is evidence for other archaic hominin admixture but not erectus. If there is, please provide a citation.
He writes:
That would offer an explanation for why we are so closely related to the knuckle-walking chimps and gorillas, while Homo had bipedal ancestry. Of course, chimps and gorillas may have split off the line of descent from a common bipedal ancestor and reverted to knuckle-walking.
The LCA between humans and chimps was way more apelike than humanlike (obviously). Human walking is 75 percent less costly than bipedal and quadrupedal walking in chimps.
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/30/12265.full
“We are genetically similar in the genes that don’t matter; we are wildly different in the few genes that do. We are related to apes but we belong in a separate category from them because they all share an appearance and behavior that we do not, and the differences are stark.”
It’s about gene regulation.
http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2006/20060309-chimp.html
How about behavioral similarity?
http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/blogs/SIOW/2011/12/behavioral-similarities-between-humans-chimps-and-apes.html
Apes are 96 percent genetically similar to us. You’re saying ‘we’re vastly different’ in the genes that we’re different on. No shit.
“Morton classified australoid skulls as Negroid. Where did Oceanians fit in the ancient three race model (Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid) if they weren’t Negroid?”
He classified a ‘Malay’ race and said some peoples on the interior and mountainous of the island ‘possess all the characters of the Negroes’ and were the original inhabitants. pg 58, Crania Americana
https://archive.org/stream/Craniaamericana00Mort#page/n77/mode/2up/search/aboriginal
Johann Blumenbach used a five race model in 1779:
Click to access BLUMENBACH.pdf
Coon used a five race model as well, and it just so happens that humans cluster in five geographic clusters backing these claims.
Oh yea, on birds and dinos:
https://xkcd.com/1211/
Birds are descended from therapods:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-dinosaurs-shrank-and-became-birds/
Thus, the coinbination of morphological characters found in Rahonn strongly supports its membership in Aves, as well as its theropod ancestry, and thus the dinosaurian origin of birds.
Click to access 10.1126%40science.279.5358.1915.pdf
Genetic clustering and taxonomy are two different things. Genetic clustering is based on the observation of DNA. Taxonomy is a softer science, it consists in classifying species and subspecies on more or less arbitrary and unstable characteristics without strong genetic implications.
If you’re going to make a post based on an argument you should at least respond to the argument so as to keep the inconsistencies and inaccuracies to a minimum
You have cognitive dissonance, but maybe I can help. Your autism wants these classifications to be visually symmetrical, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You have to decide between what’s empirically verifiable and what just sounds good.
“Notice how the African man and the Oceanian woman (pictured below) are the two most distantly related living modern people on the above tree, even though they’re the two who look the most alike.”
Because of symplesiomorphic traits. Each race shares a common ancestor so the expression of particular traits isn’t reflective of relatedness within the tree itself, because the trait can appear, disappear and re-appear anywhere.
“I know humans are primates, but surely we’re not apes. ”
…That was a nonsensical statement. You say it’s obvious we’re primates but then claim we aren’t apes. it seems you don’t understand the difference between words and things. Just because we are related to apes doesn’t mean we are the same thing as a chimp or an orang. They are our closest living relatives, of course we are grouped with them to some degree.
“The phylogenetic tree only measures time since divergence, it doesn’t measure how much meaningful change occurred in that time.””
You still don’t understand gene expression, or what the implications of Hox genes are, otherwise you wouldn’t believe that.
“Surely there’s a quantum leap between humans and apes and no one with any common sense would put us in that category.”
Common sense has held humanity back for centuries. If you think common sense is a good thing in the slightest, you are stupid.
It’s common sense that if you jump out of your window you will fall, what’s not common sense is that gravity is a force
It’s better to have uncommon sense. This is where genius comes from.
“Another borderline autistic decision occurred when scientists decided to classify birds as dinosaurs, once again focusing myopically on the phylogenetic tree and ignoring the amount of meaningful change that has occurred between the two types of animals.”
Birds are not a type of dinosaur, the evolved from dinosaurs. DNA isn’t the only evidence for this either. More than 30 species have been identified as dinosaurs with feathers, which were probably selected for when the temperature started dropping.
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/newly-discovered-fossils-hint-all-dinosaurs-had-feathers/
https://www.theguardian.com/science/lost-worlds/2013/jun/05/dinosaurs-fossils
Because of symplesiomorphic traits. Each race shares a common ancestor so the expression of particular traits isn’t reflective of relatedness within the tree itself, because the trait can appear, disappear and re-appear anywhere.
You realize that’s how scientists have traditionally defined two individuals as belonging to the same taxonomic category, right? How do scientists decide Peking Man and African Erectus belong to the same species? Because the look (and act) alike. It doesn’t matter that one lives in Africa and the other lives in Asia and they were reproductively isolated for over a million years. They both have the defining morphology of Homo erectus. I am simply applying the same logic to races (sub-species). It doesn’t matter whether this woman is from Africa or the Andaman islands. She has the defining Negroid morphology, so she’s Negroid:
…That was a nonsensical statement. You say it’s obvious we’re primates but then claim we aren’t apes. it seems you don’t understand the difference between words and things. Just because we are related to apes doesn’t mean we are the same thing as a chimp or an orang. They are our closest living relatives, of course we are grouped with them to some degree.
The point is all non-human hominids share common traits that humans lack, so for scientific precision, we need a taxonomic category that is broad enough to include all of them, yet exclude us. That category is called apes but scientists are trying to redefine it so that humans are included.
You still don’t understand gene expression, or what the implications of Hox genes are, otherwise you wouldn’t believe that.
No you’re missing the point. Look at this tree:
It shows chimps much closer to humans than they are to gorillas, even though the phenotypic gap between humans and chimps is orders of magnitude greater than the gap between gorillas and chimps. We travel to the moon while they’re just dumb monkeys.
As Scientific American explained:
Whole-genome comparisons in other species have also provided another crucial insight into why humans and chimps can be so different despite being much alike in their genomes. In the past decade the genomes of thousands of species (mostly microbes) have been sequenced. It turns out that where DNA substitutions occur in the genome—rather than how many changes arise overall—can matter a great deal. In other words, you do not need to change very much of the genome to make a new species. The way to evolve a human from a chimp-human ancestor is not to speed the ticking of the molecular clock as a whole. Rather the secret is to have rapid change occur in sites where those changes make an important difference in an organism’s functioning.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-makes-us-different/
Birds are not a type of dinosaur,
I know they’re not, but scientists categorize them as such because they belong to the same branch of the phylogenetic tree as dinosaurs.
In fact, birds are now believed to have descended directly from the theropod group of dinosaurs,[3] and are thus classified as dinosaurs themselves, meaning that any modern bird can be considered a feathered dinosaur, since all modern birds possess feathers (with the exception of a few artificially selected chickens)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur
Yet the point on phenotypic gap doesn’t justify confounding it with genetic profile.
Basically, while this shows evidence of selected DNA making difference between humans and chimps, it doesn’t serve as a comprehensive assessment of comparing such between a human, Gorilla, and Human to see who was closer to who.
“You realize that’s how scientists have traditionally defined two individuals as belonging to the same taxonomic category, right?”
Yes, when DNA is absent fossil morphology becomes the preferred method.
“It doesn’t matter that one lives in Africa and the other lives in Asia and they were reproductively isolated for over a million years. ”
There’s a difference between genetic and reproductive isolation, I’ve showed you studies indicating this before.
“It doesn’t matter whether this woman is from Africa or the Andaman islands. She has the defining Negroid morphology, so she’s Negroid:”
Why are you posting a picture as if it’s even evidence? I could post a picture of an australian aboriginal that looks nothing like her and claim the exact opposite. It’s practically anecdotal. Secondly, she isn’t event negroid in phenotype. Her head is too broad and her nose bridge is too thin, even her lips are thin. She has a mongoloid/australoid phenotype.
“we need a taxonomic category that is broad enough to include all of them, yet exclude us. That category is called apes but scientists are trying to redefine it so that humans are included.”
We have our own classification it’s called the genus homo.
“It shows chimps much closer to humans than they are to gorillas, even though the phenotypic gap between humans and chimps is orders of magnitude greater than the gap between gorillas and chimps.”
So? We diverged from chimps not gorillas. Australopithecus looked like a chimp not a gorilla, even if the genetic expression is similar it’s obvious we have more genes in common.
“The way to evolve a human from a chimp-human ancestor is not to speed the ticking of the molecular clock as a whole. Rather the secret is to have rapid change occur in sites where those changes make an important difference in an organism’s functioning.”
No shit, that’s what Hox genes do. Genetic drift and the accumulation of “neutral” dna can actually affect the genome quite dramatically. Most evolution is caused from genetic drift, this is why neutral mutations are such an accurate proxy to begin with.
“I know they’re not, but scientists categorize them as such because they belong to the same branch of the phylogenetic tree as dinosaurs.”
Taxonomic classification comes in levels, at some extent dinosaurs and birds group together, but they are still distinct entities. The concepts are exaggerated slightly because their vocabulary is subconsciously conveying excitement. You’re taking the terms too literally.
There’s a difference between genetic and reproductive isolation, I’ve showed you studies indicating this before.
The point is when two populations are separated for over a million years, they accumulate huge differences in their neutral DNA, even if their morphology hardly changes. I bet Peking man and African erectus are more genetically distant in neutral DNA than modern humans and Neanderthals are, yet the former pair are considered the same species because of similar morphology.
Why are you posting a picture as if it’s even evidence? I could post a picture of an australian aboriginal that looks nothing like her and claim the exact opposite. It’s practically anecdotal. Secondly, she isn’t event negroid in phenotype. Her head is too broad and her nose bridge is too thin, even her lips are thin. She has a mongoloid/australoid phenotype.
LOL! Do you honestly think she looks more like a mongoloid than she does like an African? Nobody who knows what they’re talking about agrees with you:
The Andaman Islanders are ”arguably the most enigmatic people on our planet,” a team of geneticists led by Dr. Erika Hagelberg of the University of Oslo write in the journal Current Biology.
Their physical features — short stature, dark skin, peppercorn hair and large buttocks — are characteristic of African Pygmies. ”They look like they belong in Africa, but here they are sitting in this island chain in the middle of the Indian Ocean,” said Dr. Peter Underhill of Stanford University, a co-author of the new report.
We have our own classification it’s called the genus homo.
No, I said we need a classification that includes ALL the apes but excludes us.
So? We diverged from chimps not gorillas.
That’s my point. All these genetic distance measures are telling us is who diverged from who when, they’re not telling us who is more functionally similar to who, because if they did, humans would be ten times more distant from chimps than chimps are from all other apes, and it’s functional change that defines real evolution.
No shit, that’s what Hox genes do. Genetic drift and the accumulation of “neutral” dna can actually affect the genome quite dramatically.
The point of the Scientific American article I linked is that it’s too simplistic to ask who is more genetically similar to who, because some genes are orders of magnitude more important than others. So until we understand how the genome works, just forget about DNA and focus on the phenotype.
Most evolution is caused from genetic drift, this is why neutral mutations are such an accurate proxy to begin with.
I just showed you proof that it’s not that good a proxy. Read the Scientific American article. Neutral DNA (actually overall DNA, since most is neutral) shows humans are as close to apes as apes are to each other, but phenotype shows humans are quantum leaps ahead of apes.
Taxonomic classification comes in levels, at some extent dinosaurs and birds group together, but they are still distinct entities. The concepts are exaggerated slightly because their vocabulary is subconsciously conveying excitement. You’re taking the terms too literally.
The point is modern taxonomy is based on monophyletic groups so since the most recent common ancestor shared by all dinosaurs is also shared by birds, it’s impossible to have a taxonomic category that is broad enough to include all dinosaurs yet narrow enough to exclude birds. We don’t have to give that category the name “dinosaur” but the use of DNA is reorganizing the categories in ways that no longer match morphology.
“The point is when two populations are separated for over a million years, they accumulate huge differences in their neutral DNA, even if their morphology hardly changes. I bet Peking man and African erectus are more genetically distant in neutral DNA than modern humans and Neanderthals are, yet the former pair are considered the same species because of similar morphology.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus#Descendants_and_subspecies
Between African Homo Erectus and Asian Homo Erectus they would roughly 1 millions years in Isolation Roughly.
Compared to Numans and neanderthals, it’s 700k
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/virtual-fossil-reveals-last-common-ancestor-of-humans-and-neanderthals
Somewhat comparable but agreeably notable. The Actually problem though is you making the regional variants of Erectus more monolithic than they actually are.
“However, there’s much disagreement about whether these populations are actually all H. erectus, or if they should be considered other species. According to Van Arsdale’s H. erectus review, some experts argue H. erectus is restricted largely to Eastern and Southeast Asia, some fossils from Western Asia and Africa should be considered Homo ergaster and European remains are best described as Homo heidelbergensis.”
http://www.livescience.com/41048-facts-about-homo-erectus.html
.
“LOL! Do you honestly think she looks more like a mongoloid than she does like an African? Nobody who knows what they’re talking about agrees with you:”
Except, you know, people who produced the data I gave you.
“The Andaman Islanders are ”arguably the most enigmatic people on our planet,” a team of geneticists led by Dr. Erika Hagelberg of the University of Oslo write in the journal Current Biology.
Their physical features — short stature, dark skin, peppercorn hair and large buttocks — are characteristic of African Pygmies. ”They look like they belong in Africa, but here they are sitting in this island chain in the middle of the Indian Ocean,” said Dr. Peter Underhill of Stanford University, a co-author of the new report.”
The point of the Scientific American article I linked is that it’s too simplistic to ask who is more genetically similar to who, because some genes are orders of magnitude more important than others. So until we understand how the genome works, just forget about DNA and focus on the phenotype.”
The problem though is your lack of understanding how
1. “Phenotype” applies to all expressed traits and not just that you see outside the body.
2. Cranial phenotype on a scientific scale disagrees with you on your conclusions biology.
3. You can produce similar traits with different alleles.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/05/case-closed-blonde-melanesians-understood/
1. “Phenotype” applies to all expressed traits and not just that you see outside the body.
Chances are if you look and act alike on the outside, you look alike on the inside, we just don’t know about the inside because we can’t see it. If I showed high IQ people who had never seen a non-white person the following (without telling them where they were from):
1) A West African
2) An East African
3) An African pygmy
4) A bushman
5) A Papuan New Guinean
And said “one of these people is not like the others”, who do you think they would pick. My guess is most would pick the Bushman. If I removed the Bushman and said which of the remaining four is least like the others, my guess is most would pick the African pygmy. If I removed the pygmy too, and said, which of the remaining three are least like the others, only then might they pick the Papuan, or they might pick the East African. The point is some Oceanian populations look more like sub-Saharan populations than some Sub-Saharan populations resemble each other.
2. Cranial phenotype on a scientific scale disagrees with you on your conclusions biology.
1) there’s much more to the phenotype than just the cranium
2) there are many different ways you can measure the cranium
3) the results will vary depending on which sub-Saharan populations and which Oceanian populations are analyzed
3. You can produce similar traits with different alleles.
Is there evidence that the similar phenotype between sub-Saharans and Oceanians is caused by different alleles?
“I just showed you proof that it’s not that good a proxy. Read the Scientific American article. Neutral DNA (actually overall DNA, since most is neutral) shows humans are as close to apes as apes are to each other, but phenotype shows humans are quantum leaps ahead of apes.”
No, it didn’t show that comprehensive relationship of apes and humans, it explained that the differences between humans and chimps like in changes in selected DNA.
It did not suffice to actually compare apes to each other relative to humans as studies have done (showing chimps to be closer to us than they are to other apes actually) with neutral dna.
http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-venema-letters-to-the-duchess/evolution-basics-from-primate-to-human-part-1
For example, this study does look at coding DNA and found the same results, including Bonobos.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tiny-genetic-differences-between-humans-and-other-primates-pervade-the-genome/
Apes who were noted to share similar proportions to early ancestors outside of the Homo genus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Fossils
For example, this study does look at coding DNA and found the same results, including Bonobos.
Your link shows chimps are the primate that humans most resemble in coding DNA, but it does not seem to tell us that humans are the primate chimps most resemble in coding DNA.
Further, scientists aren’t even close to understanding how genes cause actual phenotype. It’s much more complex than simply counting who has the most genes in common (coding or non-coding):
The research team lead by Georgia Tech Professor of Biology John McDonald has verified that while the DNA sequence of genes between humans and chimpanzees is nearly identical, there are large genomic “gaps” in areas adjacent to genes that can affect the extent to which genes are “turned on” and “turned off.” The research shows that these genomic “gaps” between the two species are predominantly due to the insertion or deletion (INDEL) of viral-like sequences called retrotransposons that are known to comprise about half of the genomes of both species.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111025122615.htm
Genetic analysis seems to do an excellent job of grouping animals by common ancestry so if all you’re interested in is building a family tree, then by all means, keep using genes. But if you’re interested in grouping animals by actual evolutionary changes, then you have to look at phenotype.
“Your link shows chimps are the primate that humans most resemble in coding DNA, but it does not seem to tell us that humans are the primate chimps most resemble in coding DNA.”
Look at the family tree.
“Further, scientists aren’t even close to understanding how genes cause actual phenotype. It’s much more complex than simply counting who has the most genes in common (coding or non-coding):”
You are talking about the function about the genes, I’m talking about what genes we have in common in proportion to other species and how different alleles can produce similar phenotypes, so the phenotype alone (especially only a few external ones) would be enough to make inferences of biological similarity as a whole.
“The research team lead by Georgia Tech Professor of Biology John McDonald has verified that while the DNA sequence of genes between humans and chimpanzees is nearly identical, there are large genomic “gaps” in areas adjacent to genes that can affect the extent to which genes are “turned on” and “turned off.” The research shows that these genomic “gaps” between the two species are predominantly due to the insertion or deletion (INDEL) of viral-like sequences called retrotransposons that are known to comprise about half of the genomes of both species.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111025122615.htm”
Again, this only talks about human chimpanzee genotrype to phenotype differences which I don’t deny, not the actual point on how that plays a role in their relation relative to us and other apes.
“Genetic analysis seems to do an excellent job of grouping animals by common ancestry so if all you’re interested in is building a family tree, then by all means, keep using genes. But if you’re interested in grouping animals by actual evolutionary changes, then you have to look at phenotype.”
You mean by labels as “tropical adapted, cold adapted, desert adapted”? Bewcause of course scientists pay attention to the ROLE phenotypes play.
This isn’t simply what you are arguing, you are talking about forming relations of based only on a few external phenotypes as opposed to all expressed traits.
Your suggestion hinges on Australoids and Negroids having a few similar traits due to their environment, but what you need to actually do is be more comprehensive in your analysis in far more traits as well as data on non-neutral DNA.
On both terms I’ve shown otherwise to your suggestion on genetic on coding DNA, phylogeny interpretation, and phenotype analysis.
“Chances are if you look and act alike on the outside, you look alike on the inside, we just don’t know about the inside because we can’t see it. If I showed high IQ people who had never seen a non-white person the following (without telling them where they were from):
1) A West African
2) An East African
3) An African pygmy
4) A bushman
5) A Papuan New Guinean
And said “one of these people is not like the others”, who do you think they would pick. My guess is most would pick the Bushman. If I removed the Bushman and said which of the remaining four is least like the others, my guess is most would pick the African pygmy. If I removed the pygmy too, and said, which of the remaining three are least like the others, only then might they pick the Papuan, or they might pick the East African. The point is some Oceanian populations look more like sub-Saharan populations than some Sub-Saharan populations resemble each other.”
And I’ve explained why that is non-comprehensive various times, used data to prove otherwise, and you admitting that we can not look at genes proves that we can not make conclusions on relations.
As for your “chances argument” I’ve already explained converged evolution.
“1) there’s much more to the phenotype than just the cranium.”
And I’ve explained why Skeletal phenotype would be more reliable than external phenotype.
“2) there are many different ways you can measure the cranium.”
But do you even know what they measure? I do. And I also have data from multiple modern and ancient comparison studies not supporting your explanation on phenotypical relation.
“3) the results will vary depending on which sub-Saharan populations and which Oceanian populations are analyzed.”
Yet through sampling they would general cluster by relation as I’ve shown.
“3. You can produce similar traits with different alleles.
Is there evidence that the similar phenotype between sub-Saharans and Oceanians is caused by different alleles?”
That is not why I brought up that suggestion. Why I did is because that is one reason why we cannot come to the conclusion that they do, as converged evolution allows that to happen.
Hell, one simple reason that supports it is that Bushman are more basal than blacks or pygmies but are light-skin.
So are non-nilotic East Africans who are the actual modern members of the ancient populations the spreaded across the world, as the craniometrics and dna supports as being closer to ancient eurasians as I’ve linked to before.
Hell, it’s East Africa Andaman people are actually linked to, so explain how they preserved a phenotype of west/central Africans?
And I’ve explained why that is non-comprehensive various times, used data to prove otherwise, and you admitting that we can not look at genes proves that we can not make conclusions on relations.
You can look at genes if your goal is to group people into families, but to me race and species is more than just having a common ancestor, it’s about genetically PRESERVING the PHENOTYPE of that common ancestor.
As for your “chances argument” I’ve already explained converged evolution.
Convergent evolution is never the default assumption, because it’s much more likely that two peoples look alike because they PRESERVED the phenotype of a common ancestor, than it is that they evolved the same phenotype independently.
And I’ve explained why Skeletal phenotype would be more reliable than external phenotype.
The ENTIRE phenotype should be considered
But do you even know what they measure? I do. And I also have data from multiple modern and ancient comparison studies not supporting your explanation on phenotypical relation.
Here’s a craniofacial study you don’t seem to have. Based on the below picture, it shows all of humanity clustering into just three major races (Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid) and it shows Australoids in the Negroid cluster:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/ancient-egyptian-population-clustering-from-loring-brace/
Yet through sampling they would general cluster by relation as I’ve shown.
But it could be that only some Oceanians have Negroid phenotype (Andaman islanders, Papuans) and others do not, so lumping them all together could be misleading.
That is not why I brought up that suggestion. Why I did is because that is one reason why we cannot come to the conclusion that they do, as converged evolution allows that to happen.
Nobody argues that the morphological similarity between Peking man and African Erectus are caused by convergent evolution, even though they’ve been separated many times longer than sub-Saharan and Andaman islanders.
Hell, one simple reason that supports it is that Bushman are more basal than blacks or pygmies but are light-skin.
That doesn’t mean the first Bushmen were light skinned. They were pushed to less tropical regions by competition by other Africans and thus forced to evolve light skin.
Hell, it’s East Africa Andaman people are actually linked to, so explain how they preserved a phenotype of west/central Africans?
Maybe the West African phenotype was ancestral to today’s East Africans. Just speculating.
To PP,
I would clarify that not all East Africans outside of NK mixed niolotic are representative due to neolithic eurasian mixing, pure examples actually being non-existent to my knowledge.
I meant to point towards phenotypical differences in skulls, thus being more reliable, with OOA populations.
Click to access 26.pdf
“yet the former pair are considered the same species because of similar morphology.”
Actually as phil pointed out, and as me and you have discussed before, the classification of homo erectus is a controversial one.
Secondly no matter how many times you repeat it, the molecular clock is not constant, and scientists do have methods to correct for such fluctuations.
“Nobody who knows what they’re talking about agrees with you:”
The mistake you make is assuming they actually do know what they’re talking about.
For example, you seem to not understand that skeletal morphology is different than skin color and fat concentrations.
It doesn’t matter if andamans have “short stature, dark skin, peppercorn hair and large buttocks”. That tells us almost nothing of their actual morphology which your picture illustrates quite perfectly.
“No, I said we need a classification that includes ALL the apes but excludes us.”
Why? If we already have a classification that excludes apes and only includes us, why would we need one specifically for apes? Especially sense we descended from apes. It doesn’t make sense.
Truthfully, most people know that we are quite different from apes. How you’re assuming the opposite, i’ll never know.
“and it’s functional change that defines real evolution.”
Sorry, but real evolution is simply varying frequencies of alleles that get fixated in a population, not dramatic morphological change.
“it’s too simplistic to ask who is more genetically similar to who, because some genes are orders of magnitude more important than others.”
The function of the genes has nothing to do with what percentage two populations share said genes.
“So until we understand how the genome works”
Lol we do understand how it works, you don’t. That’s the issue.
“I just showed you proof that it’s not that good a proxy”
No you didn’t.
“read the Scientific American article.”
I did.
“Neutral DNA (actually overall DNA, since most is neutral)”
And I’ve already demonstrated how “neutral” dna can have enormous affects on phenotypic expression
” it’s impossible to have a taxonomic category that is broad enough to include all dinosaurs yet narrow enough to exclude birds. We don’t have to give that category the name “dinosaur” but the use of DNA is reorganizing the categories in ways that no longer match morphology.
No, the point is you can’t tell the difference between terms and reality. I don’t want to be a dick, but what you’re saying is incredibly autistic, or better yet just incredibly pedantic.
“You can look at genes if your goal is to group people into families, but to me race and species is more than just having a common ancestor, it’s about genetically PRESERVING the PHENOTYPE of that common ancestor.”
I meant genes for the phenotype, coded DNA, hence what i meant by “you admitting”.
“Convergent evolution is never the default assumption, because it’s much more likely that two peoples look alike because they PRESERVED the phenotype of a common ancestor, than it is that they evolved the same phenotype independently.”
In certain cases yes but in regards to specific human types it that isn’t clear if we used pygmies as an examples who have different height genes.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/150728-african-pygmies-height-science-health-nutrition/
Furthermore I’ve already explain how bushman would pose a problem with preservance as well with actual ancient skull data.
“The ENTIRE phenotype should be considered”
That actually hurts your points as you haven’t done so as of yet. Second, again, I’ve explained why in comparison to external phenotypes skeletal phenotypes as a focused measure would be more reliable.
“Here’s a craniofacial study you don’t seem to have. Based on the below picture, it shows all of humanity clustering into just three major races (Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid) and it shows Australoids in the Negroid cluster:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/ancient-egyptian-population-clustering-from-loring-brace/.”
A clearly older graph in comparison to my data, a decade older in fact.
“But it could be that only some Oceanians have Negroid phenotype (Andaman islanders, Papuans) and others do not, so lumping them all together could be misleading.”
Again, you determined that by looking at the external traits of a few people, so why you say that as a confirmed agreement in comprehensive phenotype is nothing but a moot point.
Those populations were included in that study, lumping closer to geographically close eurasian population.
“Nobody argues that the morphological similarity between Peking man and African Erectus are caused by convergent evolution, even though they’ve been separated many times longer than sub-Saharan and Andaman islanders.”
Yet if you look at my comments on hominids I’ve shown that they do have features that lead people to suggest that they were likely different varieties, you making the similarities more monolithic than they actually are.
“That doesn’t mean the first Bushmen were light skinned. They were pushed to less tropical regions by competition by other Africans and thus forced to evolve light skin.”
Proof? Because that wouldn’t make sense seeing how capoids have little evidence to have been “pushed back” until closer to modern times than early expansion of races.
“Maybe the West African phenotype was ancestral to today’s East Africans. Just speculating.”
Except that doesn’t make sense seeing how the phenotype is confined to similar groups like Nilotics and though who lived in similar environments like Pygmies.
Anyway, doing some research they do indeed share relations on the skin color allele
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-architecture-natural-history-of-pigmentation/
Problem? Skin Color is is less reliable as single phenotype. Also that tells us that they were both under selection and used the same allele, not that the original ancestor was that color but would have the alleles in their genome.
A clearly older graph in comparison to my data, a decade older in fact.
Newer != better.
And here’s another phenotype type tree showing australoids cluster with sub-Saharan Africans.
Furthermore PP, in response to you on biological similarities and using just coding DNA in adaptation.
http://www.trendintech.com/2017/03/05/what-good-does-junk-dna-do/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725466/
“Newer != better.
And here’s another phenotype type tree showing australoids cluster with sub-Saharan Africans.”
Essentially, YES. With newer methods of phenotypical analysis.
Also, you ignore once again that phenotype tree used in an ancient skull analysis as well as how it used the same relation as my other graph uses in modern to modern relations.
It also shows the opposite of what you would expect in modern to ancient relation to mean your theory is correct on why Negroids and australoids share the same phenotype.
from here.
https://books.google.com/books?id=YEouDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=populations+and+skull+affinity+morphology&source=bl&ots=a-MSdrqKNi&sig=lLpUZeO30nLZZpmeslZQgqGto5s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje6KyYt87SAhUERCYKHdHUCUMQ6AEITzAI#v=onepage&q=populations%20and%20skull%20affinity%20morphology&f=false
pg. 53 on how different parts of the skull reflects different correlations to neutral ancestry, the face being the weakest.
Result on more reliable regions matches up to neutral distances, like my data supports.
sorry, I meant 52.
With face morphology showing less reliance, here we have how on other traits Oceania and Africans cluster apart.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/145262/fig1/
The study itself found that some affinity exists with facial morphology as it points out but again, that is shown to be less reliable with my previous source due to environmental adaptations taking effect, like coinciding with it point on mandible variation within populations of Oceania not aligning due to climate and dietary uses.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/145262/
Pumpkin is starting to use my logic instead of his. Well done.
Aesthetics don’t lie.
Moreover, the argument usually runs – well race doesn’t exist because we all share the same 99.9% DNA.
Mice share 99% of our DNA too.
There are 11 average premiership football players on a team. But one is Zlatan Ibrahimovic in a certain team. What does that tell you about where they will finish?
It poor verbal logic as opposed to social intelligence, because its confuses labels with logic like our good friend, Ludwig Wittgenstein repeatedly did in his Tractus, celebrated worldwide as ‘philosophy’ despite arguing we can’t argue anything.
ABSURD.
For god’s sake PP, we’ve already talked about this on the actual pre-genomic classing of phenotypes.
https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/08/15/the-concept-of-more-evolved/#comment-31685
Holy shit, I knew Jensen wasn’t an idiot as I pointed out how he agreed with the result of neutral DNA because I remembered how PP’s logic was that Jensen said “neutral dna” didn’t reflect genetic distance.
And in case you forgot, my actual take on Jensen’s thought on different types of DNA and his findings.
“That would be a GRAVE distortion of what Jensen actually said in The g Factor, his first sentence has him agreeing with biologist using neutral DNA to measure distance.
‘Modern genetic technology makes it possible *to measure the genetic distance between different populations objectively with considerable precision, or statistical reliability.*’
Here’s what he said on neutral versus selected DNA.
‘Neutral genes are preferred in this work because they provide a more stable and accurate evolutionary “ clock” than do genes whose phenotypic characters have been subjected to the kinds of *diverse external conditions that are the basis for natural selection*. Although neutral genes provide a more accurate estimate of populations’ divergence times, it should be noted that, by definition, *they do not fully reflect the magnitude of genetic differences between populations that are mainly attributable to natural selection.’*
Genetic differences between groups caused by selection, not their relation to each other regarding distance. PP interpreted as that it yielded genetic distance methods through neutral DNA pointless due how they undermine distance. Also, he clearly uses coded DNA as relevant to phenotype rather than distance, so in some he’s pretty much saying what RR said on the differences between distance and expression.
Oh, and remember how PP said he couldn’t find data of selected dna distances? Jensen included that as well, and look at his conclusion,
‘The second component (which accounts for 16 percent of the variation) appears to separate the groups climatically, as the groups’ positions on PC2 are quite highly correlated with the degrees latitude of their geographic locations. This suggests that not all of the genes used to determine genetic distances are entirely neutral, but at least some of them differ in allele frequencies to some extent because of natural selection for different climatic conditions. I have tried other objective methods of clustering on the same data (varimax rotation of the principal components, common factor analysis, and hierarchical cluster analysis).* All of these types of analysis yield essentially the same picture and identify the same major racial groupings.*’
D-E-A-D.”
And again, with your logic pretaining to OOA similarities as the cause, check this out and see the relation of not only other races to each cranially but also relative to the skull.
Click to access 26.pdf
Replicated here as well.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/hanihara-characterization-of-biological-diversity-through-analysis-of-discrete-cranial-traits/
Essentially clustering with Eurasians.
That bit on Jensen and his thoughts of genomics was supposed to be an old quote of mine.
‘The second component (which accounts for 16 percent of the variation) appears to separate the groups climatically, as the groups’ positions on PC2 are quite highly correlated with the degrees latitude of their geographic locations. This suggests that not all of the genes used to determine genetic distances are entirely neutral, but at least some of them differ in allele frequencies to some extent because of natural selection for different climatic conditions. I have tried other objective methods of clustering on the same data (varimax rotation of the principal components, common factor analysis, and hierarchical cluster analysis).* All of these types of analysis yield essentially the same picture and identify the same major racial groupings.*’
While it’s true that Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza made every effort to use neutral DNA, some selected DNA slipped through the cracks, and this actually undermines his phylogenetic trees as measures of family relatedness. Meanwhile all the neutral DNA that was included undermines them as measures of functional similarity.
“While it’s true that Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza made every effort to use neutral DNA, some selected DNA slipped through the cracks, and this actually undermines his phylogenetic trees as measures of family relatedness.”
Yet the point was that even by those standards they proved your suggestion wrong on Negroid and Australoids.
Also, where did you even get that interpretation due to not all of them being neutral? The correlation would still be fairly high.
“Meanwhile all the neutral DNA that was included undermines them as measures of functional similarity.”
Yet this was an analysis of him ISOLATING such genes, him finding the same results.
Yet the point was that even by those standards they proved your suggestion wrong on Negroid and Australoids.
That’s because only a few functional genes slipped into the analysis by mistake. They were aiming for 100% neutral genes.
And I could be wrong about Australian aboriginals having genetically preserved enough of the sub-Saharan phenotype to be considered Negroid, but there’s no doubt Andaman Islanders have.
On what grounds do you deny this woman her Negroid status? Because her ancestors have lived outside Africa for 50,000 years? I didn’t know race had an expiry date. By crudely looking at total genetic distance, you ignore the fact that only part of the genome affects phenotype.
“That’s because only a few functional genes slipped into the analysis by mistake. They were aiming for 100% neutral genes.”
As I said before, he was isolated such genes as I’ve pointed out.
“And I could be wrong about Australian aboriginals having genetically preserved enough of the sub-Saharan phenotype to be considered Negroid, but there’s no doubt Andaman Islanders have.”
Except that link on our old debate on this proved otherwise.
“On what grounds do you deny this woman her Negroid status? Because her ancestors have lived outside Africa for 50,000 years? I didn’t know one’s race could expire. By crudely looking at total genetic distance, you ignore the fact that only part of the genome affects phenotype.”
I’ve also included link on modern charts on cranial variation and relation, being essentially consistent with the relations of Oceanic people and African Blacks as well as one debunking your suggesting as being due to OOA preservence by using the Hofmyer skull as reference, being closer to Eurasians than Africans.
That’s also consistent with the DNA of ancient East Africans as well.
http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html
Phil, your research sounds wrong, or at least incomplete.
According to one of the top cranio-facial expert in the World, Oceanian people (at least some of them) are morphologically Negroid which is how we know Lucia and other early colonizers of the Americas were Australoid:
Then a forensic artist, Richard Neave from the University of Manchester, UK, created a face for Lucia. The result was surprising: “It has all the features of a negroid face,” says Dr Neave.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/430944.stm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman#Phenotypical_analysis
In case you forgot, I alos pointed out in another CS that the skull resembled a tribe in the same region, here’s what they look like.
http://memim.com/aimore-people.html
How negroid.
“Phil, your research sounds wrong, or at least incomplete.
According to one of the top cranio-facial expert in the World, Oceanian people (at least some of them) are morphologically Negroid which is how we know Lucia and other early colonizers of the Americas were Australoid:
Then a forensic artist, Richard Neave from the University of Manchester, UK, created a face for Lucia. The result was surprising: “It has all the features of a negroid face,” says Dr Neave.”
See my response to that as well.
Also, are you using ONE case study of forensic intrepretation (who measure skull traits more obvious like teeth, cephalic index, and prognathism are of course going to lump Australoids with Negroids as earlier limited taxonomists did that even Rushton pointed out) to say that my larger sampled data and more sophisticated methodology is incomplete?
So what’s your definition of a Negroid, Phil?
Clearly more consistent than your own. If you don’t know at THIS point what I think constitutes a negroid in my book, then here it is.
Essentially aligning with the genetic profile of thus designated African Negroids by one of the following.
A. neutral DNA to determine chronological splits, or
B. Convincing evidence of coded DNA that arguably makes them closer to blacks regardless of DNA accumlated through time
This could be proven either through comprehensive coded DNA analysis (limited) or suitably comprehensive craniometric clustering (not the simplistic type of forensics but of actual biologist aided with more advance measurements).
So far the evidence suggest otherwise for Australoids.
Do you consider East Africans negroid or only west Africans? How about bushmen and mbuti pygmies?
East Africans just borderline but genetics put them closer to Eurasians if you look at my link on them I posted earlier.
Bushman are clearly differentiated from Black, in the same cluster with pygmies.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v517/n7534/full/nature13997.html
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/response-to-euny-hongs-critique-of-23andme/#comment-1547066
Though pygmies do resemble blacks more so than Bushman, they still differentiate on more stuff than just height but the differences could be argued as sub-race worthy.
The thing is, Pygmy shortness isn’t even likely a ancrestral trait based on this study with different african populations.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0013620
With their relations to other africans-
“According to multivariate (Mahalanobis) and univariate analyses (Tables 2 and 3), distance between both pygmy groups, although highly significant, was shorter than the distance between pygmies and non-pygmies but higher than the distance between non-pygmies. Thilmans [23] in his analysis of Mahalanobis distances based on ten measurements of eleven series of skull observed that shorter distance occur between Eastern and Western pygmies but also between Eastern pygmies and non-pygmies groups from Gabon and African Central Rep. These results suggest that African pygmies groups share a more recent common ancestor than with non-pygmies, observation which agrees with data from genetic works [13]–[16]. East and West non-pygmies show the shorter distance arguing also thus for a recent common ancestor. Higher distances concern East non-pygmies when compared with pygmies followed by the distance between pygmies and West non-pygmies. The distinction between pygmies and non-pygmies is evident and the first hypothesis cannot be rejected. However, the high differentiation between Eastern and Western groups, both pygmies and non-pygmies, cannot be disregarded.”
Basically my point with the height trait is, otherwise, that leaves room open for converged evolution and could still be using different genes.
Furthermore, your not on phylogeny between AMH (what Eve was) and hiedelbergnsis is clearly a misinterpretation as that would be like saying the common ancestor for humans and chimps is closer to it’s missing link to gorillas if you apply it to the bottom Phylogram.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_07
Furthermore that even wouldn’t even be consistent with your suggestion on what neutral tells as Eve was closer chronologically to modern humans.
What the hominid phylogeny would actually look like.
http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html#chart
Along with my point on humans, chimps, and gorillas.
http://lclane2.net/phylogram.html
if it were actually true that “neutral DNA” could be identified and that papuans and afro are more alike in “non-neutral DNA” then this would have been done.
it hasn’t.
peepee is retarded child just like flushton and all psych majors.
if it were actually true that “neutral DNA” could be identified and that papuans and afro are more alike in “non-neutral DNA” then this would have been done.
No it wouldn’t have because the whole point of such DNA research is to infer human prehistory. For example, in order to infer how long ago Papuans and Africans shared a common ancestor, you count how many differences have mutated in their neutral DNA, and because these mutations are by definition not selected for, it’s assumed they occur at a random and thus predictable rate (i.e. X per 10,000 years) so if there are 5x differences in the neutral DNA, the ancestors of Papuans must have left Africa 50,000 years ago.
If by contrast you look at selected DNA (i.e. skin color genes), it would look like the ancestors of Europeans have lived outside of Africa way longer than the ancestors of Papuans since the former have accumulated far more genetic differences from Africans than the latter have, but of course in selected DNA, the rate is not predictable enough to serve as a molecular clock because it’s skewed by selection.
“If by contrast you look at selected DNA (i.e. skin color genes), it would look like the ancestors of Europeans have lived outside of Africa way longer than the ancestors of Papuans since the former have accumulated far more genetic differences from Africans than the latter have, but of course in selected DNA, the rate is not predictable enough to serve as a molecular clock because it’s skewed by selection.”
Yet again Jensen’s Results would disagree as he said it replicated the results of looking at neutral DNA.
i agree pill. gman has proved nothing.
there’s only one way to prove you aren’t peepee.
write on the back of your hand, “i am not peepee.” take a picture. post it.
or better, if gman has his score reports, write on them, “i am not peepee.”
it’s easy!
G-man you don’t have to prove anything. Any regular commenter who would confuse you with me is either trolling or socially retarded. Or both.
Yup
>”Failing to grasp this concept is leading to all kinds of absurdities. Many years ago I was horrified to learn that many scientists are now classifying humans as a type of ape. I know humans are primates, but surely we’re not apes. We don’t swing from trees, or have fur, or prognathous faces, and unlike apes, we speak, walk on two legs, write novels, use computers and go to the moon. Surely there’s a quantum leap between humans and apes and no one with any common sense would put us in that category.
“Nope,” said the scientists, “we’re apes. We’re close to them of the phylogenetic tree.”
“Yes,” I tried to explain, “but that’s only because we share an ancestor with them recently. The phylogenetic tree only measures time since divergence, it doesn’t measure how much meaningful change occurred in that time.”
According to the famous pediatrician Hans Asperger, a dash of autism is needed to be a good scientist, but with autism comes communication difficulties and a lack of social awareness, and classifying humans as apes is a linguistic travesty that discredits the entire field of biology.”<
I think there there are three possibilities:
a) When scientists said 'apes' they could have meant primates. The word primate and ape are sometimes unwittingly used inter-changebly even among scientists.
b) if they meant ''a type'' of apes. Then they are right. Although we dont have fur and dont swing from trees (although we can) we are still a type of apes. Humans and apes have opposable thumbs (which other animals dont), we humans and apes can walk on our hind legs which other animals cant. These are very very big differences between humans/apes compared to other animals (as it was these kind of changes that lead to human evolution from animals). Apes are more similar to us than they are to other animals from this evolutionary point of view. We are type of ape… just a more 'evolved' type.
Yes apes cannot do everything we can…which is why c) if they meant what they said…we ''are'' apes…. then they were wrong.