Many people, including eminent biologists, struggle with the concept that some life forms are more evolved than others. It’s not particularly controversial to say humans are more evolved than Australopithecus africanus, because the latter is extinct, and thus humans are the product of an extra two million years of evolution.
Much more controversial is claiming that one extant life form is more evolved than another. This is because many scientists view all extant life as not a linear chain of ancestors to descendants, but rather cousins who are all parallel forms of time tested evolutionary success.
When creationists say to biologists “if humans evolved from apes, why aren’t apes still evolving into humans?”, the biologists laughs at the creationist’s ignorance, and says humans did NOT evolve from apes. Rather humans and apes share a common ancestor.
But what few biologists grasp is that humans really did evolve from apes (in the popular sense of the term). True, we did not evolve from any extant ape like gorillas or chimps, but if we could clone our ancestors, most people would describe them as apes.
Of course the scientist would say:
Well technically, the common ancestor is no more genetically related to modern apes than it is to a human.
That’s true if you measure genetic relatedness by neutral DNA, which, because it changes at a consistent rate, serves as a molecular clock measuring time since divergence from a common ancestor, but it’s perhaps false if genetic relatedness is measured by substantive DNA, which changes as a function of selection pressures.
Who is most evolved?
In order to determine who is more evolved than who, you need to look at the evolutionary tree. If you’re the first branch, and you don’t do anymore branching, then you are less evolved than higher branches.
At the highest taxanomic level, there are just tree domains of life: Bacteria, Archaea, and Eukaryota. Humans are eukaryotes and thus are more evolved than bacteria, which branched off prematurely:
Among eukaryotes, there are at least three major divisions: plants, animals and fungi. Plants branched off the evolutionary tree first, making them less evolved than us animals:
Among animals, us chordata are most evolved:
Among chordates, us mammals are most evolved:
Among mammals, us primates are tied for the most evolved:
Among primates, “homos” are most evolved:
Among homo, we see that Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals are tied for most evolved:
Among Homo Sapiens, it seems Northeast Asians and Arctic Asians are tied for most evolved.
Of course this is uncertain because it seems Sfroza somewhat arbitrarily divided humanity into nine races (I prefer a three race model). A different classification scheme might have resulted in a different race being more evolved, though the same criticism applies to almost every phylogenetic tree.
Does more evolved mean superior?
Scholar J.P. Rushton is quoted as saying that from an evolutionary perspective, superiority can only mean adaptive value, if it even means this. Humans are perhaps the most evolved animal on Earth and we are arguably the most adaptable, but there are also very unevolved life forms that are extremely adaptable too, like cockroaches for example.
But if evolution is all about trial and error, life that emerges later should, on average, be more adaptable than life that appears earlier, and yet cockroaches, one of the oldest forms of life, has stood the test of time.
How do we resolve this paradox? One possibility is that the more primitive organisms benefitted from coming first and thus monopolizing the low hanging fruit: those ecological niches that were easiest to adapt to. More complex newer life forms might be more adaptable in principle, but all the good real-estate has been taken.
Niches become open because a new branch, off a line of organisms, has genes that fit the new circumstances. So we may still have insects like ants for 100 million years because they did not have to change. Selection pressure forces an organism to change because new genes adapt to new environments by advantage of those genes (K selection) or by displacement where the environment changes killing those that we less adaptable producing (r selection). New genes and new branches can affect other species as well. New species can displace unrelated species forcing them to change. Humans today self-select their environments by migration. People select the environments they are best suited for. Whites that could survive in winter moved north. Whites that liked warm climates moved south. People migrated to places that best fit their genes. Migration is how bottlenecks arise forcing change. East Asians created a new branch because a new environment opened up that was filled by those who changed the most because of their migration, because their genes led them to migrate. Without migration change happens slowly because differences don’t lead to advantages because the environment is stable. Stable environment = stable genes. Unstable environment = increased migration. Migration = self-selection / group selection. Civilization lead to social structure and migration internally to a society by occupation. War is a huge increase in change. Cities have many niches to fill.
I am posting this again.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-upfront-personal-scientists-human-brain.html
more evolved = more change > less change
More change in phenotype and genotype
In phenotype white Caucasians are the most evolved
We have a population-basis and their ramifications
Based on this
What make east Asians appears to be more evolved is the existence of amerindians, or paleomongolid while east Asians are neomongolid.
Paleocaucasoids or are a minority today because the path to the graciilization and progressivezation or
If Finnish people were the vestige of old paleo Caucasians, as well the sami people so Europeans will be the most evolved
Rushton compared overall Europeans with only northeast Asians.
Just like if I compare only Scandinavians with all mongolids, include those of the southeast Asia who are a cline of different groups.
A lot of Chineses, Koreans and Japaneses look slightly like lighter Africans and that people of south Africa.
Northern euroepans has suffered the greatest phenotypical modifications.
Pumpkin
Explain to me why aboriginals who are negrid have lower overall cognitive skills cooperatively little brains and no has produced a “civilization” can have the greatest genetic distance than Africans, human basal populations??? Even greater than east Asians? (if I’m incorrectly informed)
Geographic distance isolate populations and different environments select for different genes. But genetic distance is not itself a sign of evolution. You can have two populations with similar genetic makeup and different evolutionary stage and you can have a two genetically distant populations and with similar evolutionary stage.
East Asians seems like a economic evolution.
“more evolved”
Plz
What I already said here: the fact that human populations hate evolved differently to the different environments still doesn’t mean that no have evolved traits than others. Is not exactly like PP believes but s’he is not absolutely wrong about it.
And usually and logically the criteria that tend to be used is how modified was certan trait from basal trait, like color eyes or nose shape for example.
I can understand this differences without incorrect use of affective empathy. Exactly what “libs” has done to manipulate the white stupid, unwise.
There are some traits who are undoubtedly evolved than others even still will have a nuanced and subjective complexity there. For example self awareness. One of the most characteristic human trait is not symmetrically evolved in most of all human groups. Of course we have the basal stage of self awareness among humans and we have a continuous and variable development of this trait throughout human populations.
Sellf awareness is universally adatable because make the being partial lors of your destiny while usually among living beings there are a plethora of subjective variables such luck.
Self aware beings are theoretically speaking less dependent to the luck factor.
Lord of your destiny
Most East Asians look like light skinned simians, while Caucasoids do not.
Caucasians are the most evolved = the most dynamic in achievements and the most varied in personalities.
The idea of a polymath does not exist among most East Asians.
In America, university research opportunities in the Humanities (non-STEM) subjects are available to many non-whites, which includes blacks and East Asians. However, there are very few candidates from these respective racial groups, due to a lower IQ among blacks, and with East Asians, a weaker verbal IQ. Furthermore, both of these racial groups have shown very little curiosity about the world. This is the reason why Whites lead the world with trends and discoveries.
And reading up on Singapore’s Prime Minister, the late Lee Kuan Yew, who was a Chinese supremacist, one can infer that he was delusional and plain wrong about his co-ethnic group.
The inherent nature of most Chinese is that of petty materialism, not of progress.
German Philosopher Immanuel Kant called the Chinese, a people who live by sensation, and not by reason. He might have a point.
Santo said that the Ashkenazim are like a micro group of Whites. What differs from Ashkenazim and Euros, is similar to the comparison between Euros and East Asians. Jews are Asiatics, Orientals, and all Oriental or Eastern Cultures do not operate on reason but by sensation. This is the reason why Jews tend to be money worshipers and are quite selfish about it.
Aboriginals are not negroid, they are austoroid. Genotype > phenotype. To call austoroids black is like calling the Ainu white. Current research shows they the negroid race isn’t even that old, only about 65,000 years with Bantus in particular not showing up until 11,000 years ago.
FALSE
Australoids are negroid because they’ve genetically preserved the phenotype of Africa, especial in the Andaman Islands. Negroids are 200,000 years old. You’ve completely misunderstood the genetic research.
JS
Jews look like a histrionic whites in behavior. Greater behavioral intensity confined im a genetically limited universe.
Kn83,
Aboriginals and others australioids display a lot of similarities with African negroids. Yew you can have two populations with different makeup but similar phenotypical landscape. Seems the case of darker australooids ans African negroids.
Australoids are negroid. They appear very genetically distant on neutral DNA because they left africa 70,0000 years ago, but on substantive DNA, which is what matters, they have preserved their negroid heritage by staying in warm climates
What I’m trying to understand is the genetic distance. What it really is showing.
PP use genetic distance to “prove” that east Asians are the most evolved. Maybe because east Asians tends to be more domesticated/fitted to the civilizational environment PP and Rushton has thinked that they are more evolved.
But I showed that Australian native peoples are the most genetically distant from Africans. So this theory no make sense.
Genetic distance is only neutral DNA. All it measures is how long ago 2 populations split. It has nothing to do with how distant they are on the genes that matter
Don’t even think of it as genetic distance. Think of it as chronological distance
” different GENETIC makeup”
Pumpkin, do not spread misinformation, that fellow was more right than you were. The only reason you like to use “but on substantive DNA, which is what matters” is because it confirms your preconceived views not because of any kind of greater empirical worth. The bantu phenotype is incredibly new with more africans looking something like the khoisan back in prehistory. The ainu look white, but are genetically asian, the same goes for kennewick man and the such. negroids are not 200,000 years old, homo sapiens are.
Abos are not negroid, they’re Australoid. They are correct. They preserved the negroid-like phenotype due to similar climate, but we know evolution NOT a linear process so you can’t assume people to look and be the same genetically based on similar climate.
Ainu don’t look white period
Ainu look whiter if compared with east Asian fellows
Northern Europeans have a odd phenotypes and they are not the most genetically distant than Africans. Again this genetic distance just reflect geographical distances. Anyone here is curious to know why?/
The greatest genetic distance since Africans are found among asutraloids, people with greater phenotypical similarity with Africans.
There is only one perspective to analyze genetic differences between humans??
I’m not a expert I’m trying to understand better
”The greatest genetic distance since Africans are found among asutraloids”
is and not are
If by “more evolved” you mean more complex then I am inclined to agree with you. What you are failing to grasp is that creatures are selected for different traits in even the same environment, so this is mostly nonsense. Organisms evolved specific traits for certain environments. Meaning superiority is subjective in this sense. That’s what Rushton was really saying. Animals like crocodiles and sharks have been around for millions of years because they are well adapted to their environments.
Thanks for typing my comment for me Melo.
This notion of “more evolved” is stupid. Superiority is only on a few traits. When looked at as a whole there are positives and negatives. The term superior is definitely subjective and not objective. Superiority only arises looking at one or a few traits. That’s it. Evolution is not a linear process. It is not linear! You’re 100 percent correct saying that the same species select for different traits in the same environment.
I’ve had arguments about this on other boards, it’s just the extreme side of saying that evolution has halted. I think it’s a stupid notion. There’s no way to quantify it.
Pumpkin has proven more than once his complete ignorance when it comes to biological/genetic concepts. His anti bergman parade, his insistence on a triarchic theory(despite the massive oversimplification with such an idea, I mean what kind of idiot thinks biology can just be neatly divided?), his denial of the social hypothesis, his obsession with phenotype, and finally now he thinks evolution has a point. The cringe could not be any worse.
Like i said if by “more evolved” he meant more complex than I’d agree, but this doesn’t tell us anything about superiority.
Pumpkin has proven more than once his complete ignorance when it comes to biological/genetic concepts.
Don’t confuse ignorance with willingness to challenge the conventional wisdom.
His anti bergman parade,
anti bergman tirade, not parade. Speaking of ignorance 🙂
his insistence on a triarchic theory(despite the massive oversimplification with such an idea, I mean what kind of idiot thinks biology can just be neatly divided?), his denial of the social hypothesis, his obsession with phenotype, and finally now he thinks evolution has a point. The cringe could not be any worse.
I didn’t deny the social hypothesis, and I’m not obsessed with phenotype, I’m just one of the only people who understands that the distinction between phenotype and genotype people like you make is based on your inability to understand the difference between neutral DNA and SELECTED DNA.
And no, I don’t think evolution has a point, but I do think trial and error has an outcome. Billions of years of trial and error is going to lead to more and more optimum solutions. You confuse this simple logic for me thinking evolution is the product of some divine master plan.
Like i said if by “more evolved” he meant more complex than I’d agree, but this doesn’t tell us anything about superiority.
The point of this post is simply to prove that all life on earth can be ranked by how evolved it is. Whether more evolved organisms are superior is a separate question that requires a great deal of thought, not knee-jerk regurgitations of the conventional wisdom.
I agree. Rushton’s rule makes sense for a lot of things, especially with the variables he cites in his book. But it doesn’t hold for extremely complex things, such as muscle fiber typing.
“thinks evolution has a point”
Heh. It has no point. There is no endgame to evolution.
What social hypothesis does be deny?
“Like i said if by “more evolved” he meant more complex than I’d agree, but this doesn’t tell us anything about superiority.”
Exactly. Superior means “higher than” which there’s no way to quantify it. Especially when it comes to human evolution.
Whats bis obsession with phenotype?
I see where he’s coming from there.
To quote myself:
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/03/17/genetic-similarity-theory-as-a-cause-for-ethnocentrism/
I don’t think we are more altruistic with co ethnics because genetic proximity but because cultural similarities that tend to reflect genetics. Isn’t a direct correlation but indirect. And also because we tend to live with co ethnics than with people of other genetic landscapes.
Also because many people don’t criticize the social cultural environment they are to give really precise judgments about their own situations. Via stupidity, conformity or ignorance people tend to accept their social environment but there is a underlying pressure within families.
We are really altruistic with people who tend to express phenotypically similar point of views because this is a way to expand our own “cultural business”.
“Don’t confuse ignorance with willingness to challenge the conventional wisdom.”
Well, you’re challenging it with a very stark lack in knowledge of the appropriate and arguably rudimentary areas.
“anti bergman tirade, not parade. Speaking of ignorance:-)”
Either way it was still stupid.
“I’m just one of the only people who understands that the distinction between phenotype and genotype people like you make is based on your inability to understand the difference between neutral DNA and SELECTED DNA.”
I wasn’t denying a difference, I was merely suggesting that this dichotomy is subjective and it is making your emotional investments transparent.
“Billions of years of trial and error is going to lead to more and more optimum solutions”
for specific and varying environments******
“The point of this post is simply to prove that all life on earth can be ranked by how evolved it is.”
And it failed miserably. More complexity= more complexity not more evolved or adapted. They have more physical traits. It seems this has simply become a word game and I could seriously care less for semantics.
I wasn’t denying a difference, I was merely suggesting that this dichotomy is subjective and it is making your emotional investments transparent.
The distinction is very real and important. For example, imagine if you wanted to know how long ago humans and chimps last shared a common ancestor. You would look at the differences in their DNA because we know that DNA mutates randomly at a consistent rate, so by measuring the genetic distance, you can estimate the time since divergence.
But this only works if the DNA you look at is NEUTRAL. For example, if you looked at the genes for intelligence, you might find the genetic distance between humans and chimps is so great, they must have separated 700 million years ago instead of 4 to 13 million years ago (the mainstream consensus). The mistake you’d be making is confusing genetic distance caused by extreme selection in humans with genetic distance caused by random mutations. The former is wildly erratic wile the latter is consistent, and thus serves as a reliable molecular clock. This is why scientists creating family trees are very careful to try to use NEUTRAL DNA because their goal is to estimate splitting off dates, but the problem with calculating genetic distance this way is it gives a distorted view of how similar life forms are on the traits that matter.
“Billions of years of trial and error is going to lead to more and more optimum solutions”
for specific and varying environments******
But overtime I’d expect solutions that worked in many environments to be favored in the long run. Intelligence, which allows humans to adapt to every corner of the globe and beyond, is an example of such a solution that eventually won out after billions of years of trial and error in many different kinds of environments.
And it failed miserably. More complexity= more complexity not more evolved or adapted. They have more physical traits. It seems this has simply become a word game and I could seriously care less for semantics.
Do you believe humans are more evolved than Homo Erectus or merely more complex?
Race realist,
“What social hypothesis does be deny?”
When i first started commenting me and pumpkin argued over the main drivers of hominid encephalization.
“Whats bis obsession with phenotype”
I wasn’t talking about EGI I was stating that he cant accept the fact that people who look a like are not always similar genetically.
PP you should ask Cochran and Razib about your notion of ‘ genetically superior, more evolved’ in humans. I bet they have something completely different to say.
Got any quotes I dont feel like looking shit up
Santo, more often than not, cultural similarity means genetic similarity.
Melo, no I don’t have any quotes I’m just saying. I’m sure Nicholas Wade would disagree as well. Because there is no way to quantify this.
PP,
“Don’t confuse ignorance with willingness to challenge the conventional wisdom.”
There is challenging conventional wisdom using the facts we currently have to come to a new hypothesis, but when your conclusions are drawn from a misunderstanding, as Melo has pointed out, challenging conventional wisdom is meaningless.
“The point of this post is simply to prove that all life on earth can be ranked by how evolved it is. Whether more evolved organisms are superior is a separate question that requires a great deal of thought, not knee-jerk regurgitations of the conventional wisdom.”
How? How are we ‘more evolved’? We are adapted to our environment through evolution. With this notion of how we define ‘evolution’ and ‘natural selection’ (as well as bringing in Dawkins’ Selfish Gene theory) we can see that, as all of us here know, organisms evolved due to their surrounding environment.
Even with a great deal of thought, superiority is subjective, not objective. As I’ve said 6 million times, superiority only occurs when looking at one or a few traits. Averaged out, each organism is suited for its environment.
I’m going to ask you the same question I asked MeLo. Are humans more evolved than Homo Erectus?
RaceRealist,
you have black holes in your narrative, it’s obvious.
i agree that to say ”east asians are superior/more evolved” is too simplistic, but this still don’t cancel the fact that human groups has evolved [more] in specific ways BUT some of this specific ways has been proved ”superior” than others, even this ”superior” still should be understood in the histrionic or simplistic way.
This is not ABSOLUTELY relative but it is still reasonably relative.
It’s ok to say ”to adapt in savannah or in the desert is too hard”
but
some human groups evolved enough to create their ”own enviroment”, so called ”civilizations”.
and surprise these people tend to share behavioral (psychological/cognitive) and phenotypical similarities.
You don’t need nasty to be ”politically incorrect”, it was exactly what (((they))) want you think.
still should NOT to be understood in the histrionic or simplistic way.
“I’m going to ask you the same question I asked MeLo. Are humans more evolved than Homo Erectus?”
Humans are, to the best of my knowledge, made up of more base populations than Homo Erectus, but does that mean they’re “more evolved”? Humans, as a whole, as we know them today which is what I assume you’re talking about, are made up of a bunch different populations. That doesn’t mean we’re more evolved. Different selection pressures, different introgression from different populations, and one of the biggest, evolution in colder climes. This means we’re more suitable to how the world eventually became, in and out of Africa. Evolution clearly selected for bigger brains and clearly those with bigger brains have higher cognitive processing abilities.
Homo Erectus was well adapted to its environment. And some say that Africans have some Erectus DNA. Populations change, interbreed, go away.
That doesn’t mean more evolved. It’s just luck.
You’re overthinking it. Humans are more evolved than Homo Erectus for one simple reason: Humans evolved FROM Homo Erectus. That means humans went through all the evolutionary steps Homo Erectus did, and then added one more: becoming human.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#b7
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#a3
I already debunked that link in my previous post:
https://pumpkinperson.com/2014/10/11/is-evolution-progressive/comment-page-1/
Are we “more evolved” than our gut microbiota that dictates a huge part of our metabolism and biological processes?
So mutation, migration, and generic drift don’t real?
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/04/not-as-evolved-as-we-think/
G-d PP, evolution is an ongoing process. There is. No. Endgame. To. Evolution. What is evolution progressing towards? Of course you can say something like “the perfect being” but evolution is not conscious. Natural selection of course works randomly, with mutations, but also sexually.
Evolution is “progressing” nowhere. There’s not straight line.
G-d PP, evolution is an ongoing process. There is. No. Endgame. To. Evolution. What is evolution progressing towards? Of course you can say something like “the perfect being” but evolution is not conscious. Natural selection of course works randomly, with mutations, but also sexually
Evolution doesn’t need to be conscious or intentional to be progressive. That’s the mistake many eminent biologists make. They’re so desperate to debunk the religious idea of intelligent design that they go to the opposite extreme of claiming evolution is just some completely haphazard mess with no overall patterns or trends whatsoever.
You don’t need divine intervention for progress to occur.
Evolution is progressive because you have random variation, and only the best of that random variation survives. Now you might say, only the best for surviving a specific environment, however over billions of years, life lives in many different kids of environments, and so after enough trial and error, in tends to favour traits that are useful in almost every environment, rather than reinventing the wheel every time the environment changes. Intelligence is an example. The human brain is the most complex known object in the universe and serves as a shining example of the progress of evolution.
“Evolution doesn’t need to be conscious or intentional to be progressive. That’s the mistake many eminent biologists make. They’re so desperate to debunk the religious idea of intelligent design that they go to the opposite extreme of claiming evolution is just some completely haphazard mess with no overall patterns or trends whatsoever.”
Sure there are trends. There is sexual selection, which occurs with humans, obviously, and animals. Mutations which generate genetic variation is random but selection isn’t. Many generations, random mutations, non-random selection, complex adaptations, etc. That doesn’t constitute more evolved. Sure there are patterns and trends, so the organism can better survive in that environment. But, as I’ve shown, natural selection can select for some negative traits in the population.
“You don’t need divine intervention for progress to occur.”
I know that. But that doesn’t mean that non-conscious evolution progresses towards some kind of end goal.
“Evolution is progressive because you have random variation, and only the best of that random variation survives.”
Not necessarily.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/misconcep_04
Your genes only have to be “good enough” to pass on. No organism or population is perfectly adapted to an environment.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/misconcep_02
This is basic stuff man.
“Evolution is progressive because you have random variation, and only the best of that random variation survives. Now you might say, only the best for surviving a specific environment, however over billions of years, life lives in many different kids of environments, and so after enough trial and error, in tends to favour traits that are useful in almost every environment, rather than reinventing the wheel every time the environment changes. Intelligence is an example. The human brain is the most complex known object in the universe and serves as a shining example of the progress of evolution”
Evolution is not progressive. It is not linear. Of course it doesn’t just start over, that wouldn’t make sense. The human brain may be the most complex object in the known Universe, but that really means nothing when other organisms will still be here long after we’re gone.
So who’s more fit? Who’s more evolved since animals will be here longer than humans?
Also, the human brain evolved due to random mutations and a bit of sexual selection (random mutations much more). It didn’t progress from anywhere. And we are not progressing towards any thing.
But you know as well as I do that there are countless organisms that have remained relatively unchanged.
“You’re overthinking it. Humans are more evolved than Homo Erectus for one simple reason: Humans evolved FROM Homo Erectus. That means humans went through all the evolutionary steps Homo Erectus did, and then added one more: becoming human”
No I’m not. I gave a good answer in my opinion. It’s true. You really can’t compare them. One evolved in Africa only. The other in and out of Africa. Different lifestyles, etc etc. There is no way to quantify more evolved, just like there is no way to quantify morality. They were better for that certain environments and over time through mutation and selection we started to get bigger brains, etc. But that doesn’t mean more evolved. Mostly random processes in organisms and populations don’t mean more evolved.
There is no way to quantify more evolved, just like there is no way to quantify morality.
OF COURSE you can quantify more evolved. Who has evolved more? A snake that evolves into a lizard, or a snake that evolves into a horse? The latter OBVIOUSLY because the snake who evolved into a lizard is still a reptile, while the snake who evolved into a horse is now a mammal. A whole new taxonomic category. It has CHANGED more and evolve means change.
Those homo erectus who evolved into humans did more evolving than those homo erectus who stayed homo erectus. By definition.
Now, you don’t have to equate more evolved with progress or superiority since I haven’t yet proven that point, but you really should recognize the very basic fact that animals that have done more evolving, are more evolved.
Pumpkin,
“The mistake you’d be making is confusing genetic distance caused by extreme selection in humans with genetic distance caused by random mutations. The former is wildly erratic wile the latter is consistent, and thus serves as a reliable molecular clock. ”
Yes and the consensus is that the majority of evolution has been driven by genetic drift.
“the problem with calculating genetic distance this way is it gives a distorted view of how similar life forms are on the traits that matter.”
Exactly! What traits and why do they matter more than others? It is subjective.
“But overtime I’d expect solutions that worked in many environments to be favored in the long run. Intelligence, which allows humans to adapt to every corner of the globe and beyond, is an example of such a solution that eventually won out after billions of years of trial and error in many different kinds of environments.”
Yes I believe EQ has been slowly raising over millions of years.
“Do you believe humans are more evolved than Homo Erectus or merely more complex?”
More complex, at least when it comes to intelligence and genes associated with it. It may be important to make a distinction between “complexity” and “entropy” in this conversation, for now they are near synonymous.
“Humans evolved FROM Homo Erectus. That means humans went through all the evolutionary steps Homo Erectus did, and then added one more: becoming human.”
Wrong, homo sapien populations branched from heidelbergensis populations which branched from homo erectus ones. Again, evolution is not linear, erectus was still around when homo sapiens was and continued to “evolve” at the same pace.
Exactly! What traits and why do they matter more than others? It is subjective.
No it’s not. Scientists have very sophisticated techniques for measuring which alleles have been under selection and which have not. It’s the former that matter.
Yes I believe EQ has been slowly raising over millions of years.
Correct. And I see that as an example of evolution being progressive in the long run.
Wrong, homo sapien populations branched from heidelbergensis populations which branched from homo erectus ones.
Which further proves humans are more evolved than erectus. Humans are descended from erectus who evolved into heidelbergensis which then evolved into humans. So humans went through all the evolutionary stages of erectus, and then added two more.
Any reasonable person can see that makes them more evolved. Now you don’t have to equated more evolved with progress or superiority since I haven’t proven that yet, but you really should recognize that going through more evolutionary changes makes you more evolved. By DEFINITION.
“Who has evolved more? A snake that evolves into a lizard, or a snake that evolves into a horse? The latter OBVIOUSLY because the snake who evolved into a lizard is still a reptile, while the snake who evolved into a horse is now a mammal. A whole new taxonomic category. It has CHANGED more and evolve means change.”
PP, evolution is mostly random genetic mutations. You can’t quantify more evolved. For instance with your example. Those new animals picked up genetic mutations that allowed them to survive better in their semi-new environment. That whole new category doesn’t just appear over night. It’s a slow process.
So you’re saying evolution is linear. If we replicated the exact sequence that the first life arose from, would we come to exactly what we have today? Hell no.
“Humans are descended from erectus who evolved into heidelbergensis which then evolved into humans. So humans went through all the evolutionary stages of erectus, and then added two more.”
I know. That means genetically more complex, but not more evolved. It seems you’re saying more complex, but you’re trying to say this literally means they are more evolved.
“Any reasonable person can see that makes them more evolved. Now you don’t have to equated more evolved with progress or superiority since I haven’t proven that yet, but you really should recognize that going through more evolutionary changes makes you more evolved. By DEFINITION.”
Ummm stating that an organism is “more evolved” means, obviously, that you think it’s superior to the “less evolved” organism.
PP this is basic evolutionary science. Evolution is not progressive. It is non-linear.
So replicating evolution from step one, in 3.5 billion years will we have humans? Exactly as they are now, if evolution is “progressive”?
I know. That means genetically more complex, but not more evolved. It seems you’re saying more complex, but you’re trying to say this literally means they are more evolved.
No I’m not equating more complex with more evolved, in fact sometimes more evolved means LESS complex. Take Homo floresiensis for example. They were more evolved than homo erectus because they evolved FROM homo erectus, but they evolved to an island environment which dwarfed their body, brain and IQ making them less complex than Erectus.
According to Greg Cochran, canine venereal sarcoma, which today is an infectious cancer, was once a dog, so there are plenty of examples where being more evolved means less complexity.
Ever seen the movie “The Descent”? It’s about humans getting trapped in caves where they are deprived of light for many generations and evolving into this:
So more evolutionary change does not always mean more complexity. Now there’s a STRONG CORRELATION between being more evolved and being more complex, but the two concepts are conceptually distinct.
Evolution is simply defined as genetic change over successive generations, so more evolved simply means “more genetic change”
Unless you believe all life on Earth has experienced the exactly equal amount of genetic change, then it’s silly to deny some are more evolved than others.
Ummm stating that an organism is “more evolved” means, obviously, that you think it’s superior to the “less evolved” organism.
What I think is irrelevant. If you truly believe evolution is NOT progressive, then why bother denying the fact that some life is “more evolved”? You should simply say, “who cares if they’re more evolved, since more evolution is not any better than less.”
PP this is basic evolutionary science. Evolution is not progressive. It is non-linear.
It’s not completely linear because one extant population is rarely the direct ancestor of another extant population. However when two populations split from a common ancestor, one population will tend to remain more similar to the common ancestor than the other, and that population by definition is less evolved. For example mammals and reptiles both share a common ancestor, but that common ancestor was a reptile. So mammals radically evolved from their reptile roots, while reptiles remained reptiles.
So replicating evolution from step one, in 3.5 billion years will we have humans? Exactly as they are now, if evolution is “progressive”?
No, but we’d probably have something almost as impressive. Paleontologist Dale Russell argued that had dinosaurs not gone extinct, they would have progressed into big brained technologically advanced bipeds.
“No it’s not. Scientists have very sophisticated techniques for measuring which alleles have been under selection and which have not. It’s the former that matter.”
You completely misunderstood the point I was making. Traits that “matter” to you are subjective. Are humans and dolphins more alike because their brains were both under selective pressure? Of course not. Homo sapiens had more selection for bigger brains but what if homo erectus had higher selection for muscle? They both have high levels of complexity just for different traits.
“Correct. And I see that as an example of evolution being progressive in the long run.”
Its like you said where IQ is the ability to adapt so if g is useful in all environments it would make sense that intelligence has been slowly rising.
“Which further proves humans are more evolved than erectus. Humans are descended from erectus who evolved into heidelbergensis which then evolved into humans. So humans went through all the evolutionary stages of erectus, and then added two more.”
No it doesn’t , do you even read the shit I write? Homo erectus was around even after homo sapiens was already on the scene meaning they were still evolving!
You completely misunderstood the point I was making. Traits that “matter” to you are subjective. Are humans and dolphins more alike because their brains were both under selective pressure? Of course not. Homo sapiens had more selection for bigger brains but what if homo erectus had higher selection for muscle? They both have high levels of complexity just for different traits
That’s because your point was off topic. We were talking about neutral DNA vs selected DNA, with respect to racial taxonomy. Neutral DNA doesn’t code for TRAITS at all, which is why I think it’s a poor way to classify life forms in my humble opinion.
No it doesn’t , do you even read the shit I write? Homo erectus was around even after homo sapiens was already on the scene meaning they were still evolving!
If they were still evolving to any great degree, THEY WOULD NOT STILL HAVE BEEN HOMO ERECTUS!!!!!!!! THE FACT THAT THEY WERE STILL HOMO ERECTUS AND WE HAD BECOME SOMETHING NEW MEANS WE WERE MORE EVOLVED, BY DEFINITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I think at this point we are nearing the same page based on a few details that can be agreed upon .
A. Evolution, while not being linear, does occassionally result in life becoming more complex.
B. A point of new complexity could be viewed as a form adapting to a environment while not necessarily making a creature superior to another by default.
C. As PP shown with Floresiensis, being “more evolved” in that context doesn’t mean more complex as well.
D. Evolution could be measured amount of change a organism goes through.
Now, where it all ties back to is does this make NE Asians more complex and does this make them superior by default? Well, in what context do you mean? In Overall IQ, perhaps but in terms of certain emotional aspects of their character, cultural advancement likely hindered by lack of Verbal IQ, etc, they could be seen inferior in other respects.
In the context of traditional civilization I must agree with JS and say that they lack in terms of progression. Japan’s an exception but it’s relatively Western influenced.
Also, going back to your point on evolution and complexity, proof is their that they are more complex/ less like primitive man than Caucasians?
All populations share some primitive traits, with Asians it’s with midface prognathism, prominent cheekbones, and jaws is certain respects. Though, Japanese aside, they lack a browridge, posses a short and broad skull, and have high neotony.
However I’ve read that neotony alone doesn’t guarantee beneficial higher complexity but aids in it. I believe it was criticism with Gould’s take on it’s application on human evolution from apes.
Regardless, it’s indeed well correlated with domestication I believe in being calmer and more adjustable towards human “culture”, in application to both humans and animals alike (features of domesticated foxes).
In the case of say domestication I say they would outrank Caucasians but I hesitate in whatever independent variable you are trying to measure.
“That’s because your point was off topic. We were talking about neutral DNA vs selected DNA, with respect to racial taxonomy. Neutral DNA doesn’t code for TRAITS at all, which is why I think it’s a poor way to classify life forms in my humble opinion.”
It wasn’t off topic, I was simply criticizing your subjective preference.
“THEY WOULD NOT STILL HAVE BEEN HOMO ERECTUS!!!!!!!! THE FACT THAT THEY WERE STILL HOMO ERECTUS AND WE HAD BECOME SOMETHING NEW MEANS WE WERE MORE EVOLVED”
Calm down, Homo erectus evolved plenty, in fact it encephalized more(not saying that they were more encephalized) than homo sapiens. They expanded more territory and covered more habitats before homo sapiens and thus were under incredibly varying selection pressures. Something “new” as in we had bigger and less prognathous heads.
Hey pp
Usain Bolt is still the world’s fastest man. Anyone else surprised?
http://nationalvanguard.org/2010/10/composite-greeks-the-ancient-and-the-modern/
Mind blown.
I always thought the greeks or the northwestern europeans were easily the most “superior” of Caucasoids, simply form their historical legend. I would add indians to the list but they are pretty mixed.
Galton thought the ancient Greeks were the most intelligent people to ever live.
“but it’s perhaps false if genetic relatedness is measured by substantive DNA, which changes as a function of selection pressures.”
And why should it be? The existence of convergent evolution only complicates the proposal.
In which case you’re just looking at phenotypic similarity and calling it “relatedness”.
Exactly. Following this “logic” a whale is a fish because it swims in the water. This is obviously not the best example but you get the point.
And why should it be? The existence of convergent evolution only complicates the proposal.
Because humans evolved under radically different conditions from apes, and thus if you look at substantive DNA (the DNA that is actually selected) we should be radically different. But if you look at neutral DNA (which by definition was not selected), we’re quite similar, since neutral DNA only measures divergence time, not the genes that actually code for traits.
“Among chordates, us mammals are most evolved:”
No, they aren’t. Birds split off from other dinosaurs long after mammals did.
And you’re not even looking at phenotypic difference. You’re looking at rate of divergence from some other group.
No, they aren’t. Birds split off from other dinosaurs long after mammals did.
You’re making a category mistake. You can’t compare birds to mammals directly, because birds are a class within the Ornithurae clade while mammals are a class within the Mammaliaformes clade. A new subtype of an old variant is still old.
And you’re not even looking at phenotypic difference. You’re looking at rate of divergence from some other group.
Yes, I know. The phylogenetic trees should be based on divergence dates (neutral DNA) however ideally, the groups being compared should IDEALLY be defined by phenotype (substantive DNA) but that ideal is almost never met.
By the way, the trees PP is using to set divergence rates are misleading.
Are Bonobos “more evolved” than humans?
…dates…
yes
What you’re doing is a text book example of a category mistake. You have one branch for an entire taxonomic genus (Homo represented by humans) and two branches for specific species within ONE genus (chimps and bonobos are both part of the pan genus, and thus should be combined to one branch not two).
In order for this to work, you have to compare life forms of equivalent taxonomic specificity within the same taxa.
PP
Don’t get me wrong, I understand exactly what you’re saying. Except it doesn’t make sense. The same way a biologist laughs at the creationist, I think a biologist would laugh at this post (I have a PHd biology buddy, I should ask him).
Ahahahaha. PP. I noticed you said that ‘we are more evolved than bacteria’.
We have trillions of gut microbiota. That’s what really ‘makes us human;.Our life how it is now wouldn’t be possible without gut microbiota. It wouldn’t be possible for cows either, since they have certain kinds of gut microbiota that helps them digest what they eat since their digestive system wouldn’t be able to do so otherwise.
We NEED this gut microbiota, without it life wouldn’t be possible how it is.
If you’re not up to speed, get on speed. Because this will revolutionize dieting (in my opinion) as well as other facets of biology and human life.
http://hmpdacc.org/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160529174445.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160519130105.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608142554.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160616140723.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150421131925.htm
mo ra li ty
😉
They laughed at Einstein too.
It’s established that evolution is not linear, it’s not progressive. Saying so doesn’t deny human evolution. It just means there is no conscious end goal to evolution.
Can’t believe I’m agreeing with Gould! Whelp, there’s a first time for everything.
If east asians are more evolved so
russians are more evolved than western europeans**
😉
On preferring a 3 race model:
Why? When 5 makes more genetic sense. I know you’ll probably classify ‘Natives’ as Asian mongoloid, but they are unique in having been genetically isolated for 10ky.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11144288
Pacific Islanders also cluster on their own. A 5 race model makes more sense.
While on the topic of evolution, PP, what do you think of Richard Fuerle’s theory in Erectus Walks Amongst Us:
“Some of the Eurasian apes live in swampy areas, near lakes or the sea, or in forests near rivers, where they feed on plants and aquatic animals. When they are in the water, they walk on two feet (“bipedalism”). Over time, they become more and more anatomically adapted to bipedalism and venture farther away from the safety of shallow water and nearby trees. This is the first “giant step for mankind” because bipedalism was the single most important adaptation in the evolution of man; man is the only habitually bipedal mammal. It is about 10 million years ago and bipedal apes have arrived.
The Eurasian bipedal apes follow the fruiting of trees and bushes and the herds of animals that predators feed on, scavenging the remains. Walking on two feet lets them travel farther and faster and with less energy than the quadrupedal apes, 1 and there are many other significant advantages as well. Their hands are free to carry food and rocks 2 and sticks for weapons, 3 standing upright presented less surface area to the sun, keeping them cooler and able to forage longer 4 and, by standing, they could better spot predators. 5 Weapons and tools improve, as they can now be carried with them instead of being made only when needed, then discarded. Larger brains enabled them to plan better hunting strategies, thereby obtaining more meat to fuel their growing brains, creating a feedback loop of bigger brain → better tools and weapons → more meat → bigger brain (where “→” means “makes possible” or “goes to”). 6
…
In Europe and western Asia, early erectus eventually evolved into Neanderthals (also spelled “Neandertals”) about 350,000 ya. In East Asia, cold-adapted erectus acquires control of fire, 15 moves still farther north, and evolves into Homo sapiens (Hs), archaic man, about 200,000 ya. Similar changes occurred in West Asia, but without cold adaptations. The last stage before becoming modern, Hs further improved his skills and increased his intelligence, extending his range still further north. By about 150,000 ya, archaic man became Homo sapiens sapiens (Hss), modern man. Where this happened is a major contention that is the subject of much of the rest of this book, but the author believes it happened in East and West Asia.
Like his predecessors, the new-found tools, weapon, and intelligence of Hss were an advantage not only in the north, but also in the south, still occupied by Hs and even by some erectus in the tropics. So, when his numbers increased and the climate became colder and winters so severe that the snow no longer melted, he moved south, invading Hs and erectus territory, driving them to extinction, but sometimes interbreeding with them along the way, creating hybrids. The glaciation of the north lowered sea levels and migration to Pacific islands and Australia became feasible. When the ice finally began to melt thousands of years later and the cold retreated, Hss moved north once again. West Asian Hss spread into Europe, where he bred to a limited extent with the Neanderthals, becoming today’s Caucasians.
About 50,000 ya, one or more mutations occurred in a Eurasian population that affect the functioning of man’s brain. These mutations were so favorable that they rapidly spread through to Eurasians. Man created an elaborate culture, acquired religious beliefs, and crafts, art, and tools that had to be visualized in his mind. Agriculture and the domestication of animals followed about 10,000 ya and the rest, as they say, is history.”
http://erectuswalksamongst.us/Chap1.html
That book denies the Out of African model of human origins. As a Rushtonian, I don’t.
“Some of the Eurasian apes live in swampy areas, near lakes or the sea, or in forests near rivers, where they feed on plants and aquatic animals. When they are in the water, they walk on two feet (“bipedalism”).”
While i am positive early hominids swam,waded, and dove through shorelines for recreation and resources, the attempt at prescribing it as causation to bipedalism seem lamarkian.
“but also in the south, still occupied by Hs and even by some erectus in the tropics. So, when his numbers increased and the climate became colder and winters so severe that the snow no longer melted, he moved south, invading Hs and erectus territory, driving them to extinction, but sometimes interbreeding with them along the way, creating hybrids. ”
This seems to be suggesting that encephalization occurred mostly in europe. I wouldn’t take this text too seriously.
I don’t take it too serious. It’s interesting though. And I love the amount of citations he has.
I think Erectus Walks Amongst Us is the perfect compliment to Race, Evolution, and Behavior. I’ve learned a lot reading his book, even if his theory on human origins is a huge reach and untrue.
I can get behind eurasian environments giving better selection towards intellectual innovation, but from what I could find, the most bipedal ape would be the Bonobo.
When comparing African and Eurasian populations, the former have a more prominent heel for bipedalism while the later have a stronger spine structure to be upright.
Overall African apes are more adapted to ground movement, are far more social than orangutans, and have closer body proportions to humans.
Aside from that, everything else seems in order. I’m admittedly open in dispute of H. Sapiens evolving from Africa but Razib Khan seems to make a descent case here.
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/why-i-still-lean-toward-a-sub-saharan-african-origin-for-modern-humanity/
Obviously it took place in the Savannah in North/North East africa rather than the tropic where one would find the more primitive characteristic of Africans.
Phil,
I used to be on the fence about OoA as well leaning towards a multiregional model. But more reading into it and seeing how we know that we came from Africa solidified it for me. It’s only the Nordicists and the like who try to push a multiregional model because they have no idea what they’re talking about.
Razib makes a great case for it. So does some guy in an anti-HBD book I grabbed a few months ago (called “We Are All African”) unfortunately, that’s one of the only good tidbits in the book, the rest is trash. How he tries to take down the IQ argument is funny.
I was the same. The issue I have with Erectus Among Us in regards to orangutan superiority and development is that it mostly looks at craniometric tendencies when if you look a physical neotony the Bonobo is the closest to humans.
Actually, the orangutan seems to be behaviorally closer to a Neanderthal due to it’s sparsely packed groups and relative nonaggressiveness and intellect, while still being physically more primitives than African apes (Limb and body proportions).
Overall a non human primate species that’s gregarious and “civil” would be this North African Monkey that went into Southern Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_macaque
Old world monkeys seem to match up with humsn in suppose origins and level of dispersion.
http://www.livescience.com/27980-earliest-old-world-monkeys.html
Despite this, the book does bring up some good conundrums. Overall I think it could be solved by the fact that East Africa is indeed closer to an intellectually selective environment compared to the Tropics of Africa. For example, pure Nilotics versus Guinea Blacks. While in some respects similar, they are radically different based on Sapien Phenotypes (Long versus stubby neck, height, prognathism, ). To add to that, the likelyhood of the environment being much different (It was a forest area in the days of Lucy for example before being a desert today, likely connect to the earth tilt causing the drying of the Savannah and the Warming of Europe).
“Neanderthal due to it’s sparsely packed groups and relative nonaggressiveness and intellect”
How do you know neanderthals were not aggressive?
Melo
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/04/140421-neanderthal-dna-genes-human-ancestry-science/
To Melo,
Likely deduction. For what I could find on social structure they were sparsely populated, like Orangutans who lack the dynamic nature of higher populated and more violent Chimpanzees.
Like Orangutans as well, it was inferred from Neanderthal structure that the lacked a real dynamic culture compared to Humans which lead to eventual extinction/ introgression.
The same is noticed with barbary Monkeys which inhabit Europe. though they are more dense in population numbers.
Thank you, I just figured they would have been pretty violent too.
To Melo
Possibly on a relative scale, but it depends on what you compare it too.
Actually I take that back your link even says: “The PNAS study found, for instance, genetic differences between Neanderthals and modern humans in genes linked to aggression. But the authors caution that “if [the genes] affected activity or aggression levels, it is unclear whether they increased or decreased such traits.” They cannot say, for now, which species would have been the more aggressive one.”
Also, just because genes that effect human aggression are absent in neanderthals doesn’t mean they didn’t have genes that expressed such traits. Melanesians have blonde hair yet, the genes that create such coloration are not the same that causes similar coloration in european. I dont remember but didnt neanderthals have blonde hair yet the genes that selected for it are not the same as the ones that select for it in homo sapien populations?
Another interesting side note this very link contradicts pumpkin’s assumptions haha:
“Pääbo cautioned, however, against equating genetic change with evolutionary sophistication. “Clearly, Neandertals were not ‘less evolved’ than modern humans,” he said. “They had their own history and evolution. They took another path, if you like.””
To Melo,
that has occurred to DNA wise, which was why I spoke based on archaeological evidence.
Also, Barbary Macaque, the only primate aside from humans present in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_macaque
While in terms of role being closer to Cro Magnon, invading Europe in bands as oppossed to the well adapted Orangutan, it also display less aggressive features scene in other variation of Macaque, such as in parenting styles.
To Melo, I meant that it occurred to me DNA wise, as I’ve made a similar argument to PP in my further comments.
Melo, yup. I know I’m believing Khan and Paabo. I should pick up Paabo’s book next time I’m at BnN on Neanderthals.
I just find it interesting, because neanderthals could have been incredibly aggressive or not at all. Im inclined to accept the latter because a lot of northern/temperate species are less aggressive.
Melo,
That’s due to mainly to lack of resources compared to southern areas, as well as an effect of the cold.
To phil
Yes cooperation is probably more effective than competition in more isolated environments im on a phone so ill respond later with a more tjorough response
I agree with your note on superiority based on traits and being suited to an environment. Technically though I believe it works best in the context of the organism in it’s environment.
Caucasians, as noted by Santo, do create their own environment to develop in that they can modify and replace in other ones to a higher degree than other humans but in the context of the raw environment itself against their physical adaptations it would be hard. However this goes along somewhat with you’re note on certain traits.
Of course then it’d be completely subjective to that environment and whoever is observing. There’s just no way to quantify superior, more evolved. Just like there is no way to quantify morality.
Pingback: The Concept of “More Evolved”: Reply to Pumpkin Person « NotPoliticallyCorrect
To PP,
Okay, so you believe that race should be by selected DNA which can be infered by Phenotype, a few problems.
A. while we can see some phenotypical overlap, we can’t truly deduce that it means that the phenotypes themselves are expressed by the same DNA sequence.
Read this http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/05/case-closed-blonde-melanesians-understood/
Which brings me to my next point
B. As Reference to an Australoid you use a Andamese woman. Problem, even mere physical anthropology, looking deeply at physical features, reveal the argument of Australoids like them being phenotypically separate from Negroids based on craniometrics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito#Anthropology
Also separating Australoids from Negroids wasn’t an invention of looking at neutral DNa, such separation was done before. e.i, John Baker
“Hybrids between Australids and Europeans scarcely differ from the latter in skin-colour;(39i]
and when these hybrids intermarry with Europeans, their progeny are indistinguishable from Europeans in this respect.[393] *Australids differ markedly
from Negrids* in most of the features mentioned in this paragraph.”
Click to access John-R.-Baker-Race.pdf
This seems to lend support of a likely different phenotypical nature of Australoids and Negroids.
Also Australoids are not typically as “african” in appearance as the andamanese. On a more represzentative level they have wavier hair, heavy browridges,
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5149518/1/
as well as as other features. suchas skull shape which would justfy separation from Africans.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5928166/1/
A. while we can see some phenotypical overlap, we can’t truly deduce that it means that the phenotypes themselves are expressed by the same DNA sequence.
Well no measurement of inherited biological similarity is perfect, but I think classifying organisms by selected DNA would give more meaningful results than the current method of classifying them by lineage (neutral DNA).
However phylogenetic trees should be made by neutral DNA, because the purpose of those is not to classify, but to show who split off from who and when.
B. As Reference to an Australoid you use a Andamese woman. Problem, even mere physical anthropology, looking deeply at physical features, reveal the argument of Australoids like them being phenotypically separate from Negroids based on craniometrics.
No two populations are identical. Negroid populations differ from other Negroid population. Look at the huge differences between West Africans and East Africans, let alone the differences between West and East Africans and pygmies and bushmen, and yet the latter two are already considered negroid by scholars like Jensen and Rushton, and classified as negroid by neutral DNA. See Cavali Sforza’s genetic linkage tree:
If Andaman islanders lived in sub-Saharan Africa, they would fit right in with the other Africans based on phenotype. They would look like just another variant of black African. If you showed a West African, an East African, a Congo pygmy, a bushman, and an Andaman islander to an alien, and said which of these is not like the others, they would pick the bushman before they picked the Andaman islander.
Now I agree that Australian aboriginals are more of a stretch, because they lack the negroid hair, but the vast majority of peoples within the australoid group are almost indistinguishable from sub-Saharan Africans.
And even Australian aboriginals are considered negroid by craniofacial anthropologists. In this BBC article, an expert concludes a skull is Australian aboriginal because “It has all the features of a negroid face”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/430944.stm
Problem.
A. While East and West African do differ while holding a connection, you need to be specific. The purest “East Africans are Nilotics, many other being mixed or somewhat pure Bantus. So the from the get go are partially of another race. That Tree you have clearly showed how and Ethiopian is just borderline Negroid.
B. While insisting that Australoid would fit in with negroids simply because of variation within Africa is a poor excuse because Capoid, if you notice, are also often put in separate races themselves just like Australoids.
C. As for that BBC note, so? Just because on that one instance Australoids are lumped under negroid that doesn’t mean that closer analysis on a phenotypical basis would prove otherwise. That quote wasn’t even given a proper context. For all we know, “all the features” just mean prognathism, flat noses, dolichocephalic brain, etc.
Again I gave evidence that pointed out major differences between Australoid and negroids.
Again I gave evidence that pointed out major differences between Australoid and negroids
I don’t dispute there are major differences, but if those differences are dwarfed by the differences between either race and Caucasoids and mongoloids, then you could still justify merging them into a single race. There are major differences between whites and middle easterners but I would still merge them into a single Caucasoid race. There are major differences between East Asians and Native Americans but I would still merge them into a single Mongoloid race.
The fact that there are major differences doesn’t necessarily trump the fact that there are also major similarities.
More on different types of Africans,
With Capoids they are indeed lumped under negroid, but as you could read from those like John Baker They do have enough phenotypical traits to justify their own separation from Negroids.
You merely take the mention of one anthropologist in the way of craniometric comparison when I show a detailed info showing the opposite.
http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Australoid%20race
Again, they can be inferred as a different race. BTW Andamanese are actually exceptional in their appearance to African, other groups being better defined as their own..
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5168162/2/
As said in the like’s of Baker, Australoids differ with Heavier Browidges and wavier Hair.
Negroid and Capoids share the low bridge despite differences in prognathism and height.
Again, the only group research consistently tries to associate are Negritos, which my wiki link shows are closer to their neighbors on a craniometric analysis.
The features they do share are simply a flat nose, dark skin, elongated skull, and prognathism. These traits however are simply either archaic ancestry expressed and environmental expression. Other features would suggest closer affinites to other groups.
“Caucasoid faces are molded in the highest relief, with narrow, prominent noses, deep eye sockets, and hollow cheeks. This extreme model tapers off into more rounded features. Australoids’ faces resemble Caucasoids’ on a heavier frame, while Negroids’ faces are less angular. “
“These traits however are simply either archaic ancestry expressed and environmental expression. ”
That does bring up an interesting point, that the environment of Australia and portions of Africa (East and South) are similiar, hence it could account for similar progressions towards varying prototypes in both Australoids and Blacks.
For instance, PP might say that tropical people in general all evolved with lower IQ (a phenotype), yet aren’t necessarily genetically related. This would bring up the interesting question of whether the DNA is still similar, by adaptation/evolution, despite not having a close relationship to each other.
In summary, it very well might be that Australoids are Caucasians moving towards a more Negrotic (sic) evolutionary niche, due to environment, but are still closer related to the Caucasoids.
Negrotic in this context is not relating to the Negritos.
To Willie,
That’s a basic idea. Also, notice how Northern adapted Australoids called Ainu are Caucasian looking, giving more support towards phenotypical affinity. If you read literature from the late 19th and early 20th century you would notice that Australians were compared to Cromagnon physically and Negritos and tasmanians were the ones noted to be Negroid like, though cranial studies have found closer matches with surrounding populations.
The Selected sequences for the phenotypes COULD be similar, but we don’t know for sure of they are the same. Plus, it also depends on how you assess phenotypes. For a better assessments we must actually list out a comprehensive layout of their similarities and differences and rank them based on significance based on taxonomy.
To willie, by “same” when refering to Phenotype I mean we don’t know if for example a certain hair color is produced by the same sequence.
Also, organizing creature merely how they look is somewhat misleading because one would need to observe on a detailed level of skeletal traits for instances and not just general appearance. Why? Because phenotype creates physical properties which can be highly influenced by the environment though their could still be traits like development or medical issue that differ between races of the same “phenotype” of PP’s standards.
For example, both pygmies and bushmen posses infantile bodies though differ in prognathism, skin tone averages, and overall resemblance to blacks. In this respect, capoids like Bushmen who posess pseudo asian eyes were commented on being likely closer to Mongoloids. Regardless, their overall bodily structure and development still links them and those features correspond with their “neutral” relation.
Further on Capoids, they are consider African for two reasons. One the have adapted to their environment with SOME similar traits like Blacks and that modern capoid hunter gathers in general, despite splitting off from Negroids at 140 ka mixed with them until about 40 ka.
So the relationship is complex, not them simply being a subrace.
To pumpkin person,
That depends on how one would define major differences. Middle Easterns typically deviate from Europeans in respects of melanin, cephalic index and cranial volume while other traits can still be consider Caucasian.
Also, them being dwarfed by different features between Mongoloids and Caucasians is assuming that they would have to be as distant.
Finally, how have proven in a comprehensive assessment in traits that I gave above that they could still be linked as the same race?
I have shown that they differ marked in skull affinity, phenotypical expression when mixed with whites, facial frames, hair texture, hair color.
So again, they can be divided. As for your point on Africans, it’s their but it’s not as simplr as a sub race relationship.
“The result was a four-part taxonomy of white Europeans, red Americans, yellow
Asians, and black Africans.9 Johann Blumenbach later refined the Linnaean
classification and added a fifth race, Malay, that today we would call
Oceanians.10″
By Linnaean standards Australoid were grouped from african Blacks.” p.391
file:///home/chronos/u-847e6ebc289f3c7306363eddb5674a7c1bf47af1/Downloads/87-173-1-SM%20(4).pdf
The sentence on taxonomy standards wasn’t part of the quote, it was my comment misplaced.
That anthroscape link I gave was a mistake,
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4086224/1/ here’s the one comparing faces.
BTW Racerealist, as a small synopsis, My next article will actually be dealing with a controversial idea, can negroid attain a higher level than the common “Negro” image through ways outside of simply admixture?
I will reference old 19th century data regarding and assertion concerning the idea that actually support the notion but will also explain why it hasn’t been applied very widespread in the past.
The problem of evolution is that we tend to have the prevalence of one type of evolution, a non accumulative or unwise evolution.
Based on some perspectives east Asians on avg can be viewed such a “more evolved” but even their advantages were selected deselectng other/their old advantages. You select certain trait deselecting other different disadvantageable traits.
You win in one side and loose in other side.
So to be absolutely more evolved east Asians should be not what they are: A negative pole of most of African subsaharian populations but a accumulative super race of Caucasian “and” African traits.
Civilizations has selected for systemizing-types specially those that are more technological advanced. And humans has deselect the giftedness of empathizing resulting in our technological advanced but emotionally retarded societies.
Advantageable 😁 and not disadvantageable.
So to be absolutely more evolved east Asians should be not what they are: A negative pole of most of African subsaharian populations but a accumulative super race of Caucasian “and” African traits.
But in evolution there are always trade-offs. You can’t have everything because there’s a finite amount of biological resources each organism has. The fact that there are trade-offs is why so many people deny the idea of evolutionary superiority, however I would argue that not all trade-offs are equal and some are ultimately superior to others.
Exactly. There are tradeoffs. Natural selection may select for a certain positive trait, but then take away from another trait, possibly making the organism less fit
Define superior in terms of human evolution. Remember, superior means “higher than”, which I still say there is no way to quantify because it’s all subjective based on environment.
We may can to say that some groups are more evolved than others and partially speaking bit at individual levels is absolutely possible we have a one individual who is { specifically } more evolved than most of individuals who are of collectively (on avg) more evolved.
PP look at what Razib said about Rushton
“rushton was full of a lot of shit. i had some email correspondences with him where i told him to stop it, and he refused, even when i pointed out to him how he was full of shit. he said a lot of brave and courageous things that people didn’t want to hear, yeah. but he was also mendacious when it suited him. i guess he wasn’t a saint, but a human. but whatever.”
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/why-its-not-surprising-west-africans-dominate-sprinting/#comment-1530754
Thoughts?
Expected from this dirty ”indian”, 😉
PP here is what Razib says, I asked him.
people who talk in those terms about population genetics are inferior and less evolved. sabine’s statement in my other posts applies: you’re not a serious thinker and label yourself as a stupid or ignorant.
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/open-thread-8142016/#comment-1531983
I think that ends the “more evolved” “genetically superior” argument. =^)
more evolved DON’T exactly mean genetically ”superior”
😉
depend what you are talking
– a single trait
– or a trait-combination*
”to live longer” is superior than ”to live faster”*
Yousain Bolt is more genetically evolved to speed than you*
and what attribute you are comparing
blue eyes are better than brown*
Kazib call you ”genetically inferior”,
he think that ”people who talk about this terms are genetically inferior”
he’s contradicting himself…
😉
smart people think: evolution is not linear; no there genetically ”superior” or ”evolved” (and i agree slightly))
dumb people think: evolution is linear, there is genetically ”superior” ‘or’ ”evolved” (and i agree slightly)
So ”racist chauvinism” (Trump supporters) IS a less evolved behavioral trait THAN ”relativity of the human characteristics” (Killary/Sounders supporters) **
point of views ”or” cultural memes are sophisticated abstractization of the pure behavioral trends…
Change instinct into a words.
If not there such thing ”more evolved” BECAUSE we are talking about a greater variability of adaptations/behavior/cognitive specializations so we can conclude that ”there is more than a single one ‘intelligence’ **”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_distance
“Populations with many similar alleles have small genetic distances. This indicates that they are closely related and have a recent common ancestor.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noncoding_DNA#Noncoding_DNA_and_evolution
“Shared sequences of apparently non-functional DNA are a major line of evidence of common descent.[57] Pseudogene sequences appear to accumulate mutations more rapidly than coding sequences due to a loss of selective pressure.[26] This allows for the creation of mutant alleles that incorporate new functions that may be favored by natural selection; thus, pseudogenes can serve as raw material for evolution and can be considered “protogenes.[5 ”
This illustrates my problem with PP’s take on genetic distance in application to race. Specifically, the assumptions made due to substantial dna being more reliable than neutral DNA. However, the latter’s overall reliable should be reexamined due to the indirect role of noncoded DNA.
Prior to genetics distinguishing races, the most advance phenotypical model was a five race one popularize by Carleton Coon which even Jensen commented was supported by recent genetics in forming clusters corresponding with such a model. If the procedure was done using uncoded DNA then I see it as no coincidence.
My idea is that phenotypes were selected for which still makes them separate races or that uncoded DNA, as we can see for the Wiki page, does play an indirect role in sequence expression. Thus it would make sense to find the correlation between genetic distance with humans and phenotype.
Also, proof of expressed differences in negritos and africans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito#Genetics
This mentions a study, consistent with more modern craniometrics also mentioned, of negritos having protiens and blood groups closer to Oceanic people rather than pygmies.
More on Jensen and method of race validity.
“The races appear when you feed these genetic distance m easures
into a statistical procedure called principal components analysis
(P C A ), which groups the individual measures that share some com
m on features into a smaller number o f clusters, term ed principal
components. Psychometricians regularly use P C A to determine
which mental tests in a large battery cluster together.
Cavalli-Sforza perform ed a PC A to see which populations would
cluster together based on how far apart they were on the 10 0 + genetic
markers. I perform ed the same kind o f analysis on a different set o f
genetic distance data obtained by geneticists A. K. Roychoudhury and
Masatoshi Nei. O f course, there is genetic variation within the clusters.
Nevertheless, P C A does sort the various populations into genetically
similar clusters. Both analyses came out with the same seven
population clusters based on their degree o f genetic resemblance:
African, Caucasoid, Northeast Asian, Arctic Asian, Native American,
Southeast Asian, and New Guinean/Australian. For the most part, so
did William W. Howells s analysis o f the type o f cranial measurements
used by classical anthropology. I’ve also used different types o f
statistical analysis. *All these different methods o f analysis and the
different data sets to which they have been applied produce essentially
the same picture, which pretty much agrees with the racial classifications
of the old-time anthropologists and of the man on the
street*. It is highly unlikely that a “mere cultural construction’’ would
show such consistency across time, characteristics studied, and
methodology. (See Table 4.1.)
Click to access Intelligence-Race-And-Genetics-Conversations-With-Arthur-R.-Jensen-Frank-Miele-256p_081334008X.pdf
So Jenson agrees with the 5 race model phenotypically and genetically.
It’s worth mentioning though, while forming five macro clusters, they don’t correspond exactly in genetic distance.
“The analyses of genes (A) and skulls (B) identify
more or less the same clusters or races. One major difference is in the
distance between groups and, therefore, implied time of their separation.
The analysis of genetic polymorphisms (A) shows the greatest distance is between
the African cluster and the Australia-New Guinea cluster (D), while the
analysis of cranial measurements(B) places them close together (d). This is
probably because the cranial measurements were shaped by the similar selective
pressure of hot climates, rather than evidence of a recent common ancestry.”
The problem is that how much do we know about Substantial DNA and/or expressed DNA and how it is expressed based on climate pressure alone? Thus it complicates the use of Negroid encompassing certain populations.
Well in psycho cognitive terms seems pretty clear that africans and Australia-Guinea peoples have/are in the same to similar evolutionary stage with the difference that among africans we have more heterogeneity.
There are ”gifted” (based on western/ modern eastern parameters) pure-blood australian and guineans**
There are ”gifted” pure-blood south american indians**
What some people already said here: evolution tend to be blind
But how self-aware human beings become less blind/random will be the evolution.
To Santoculto,
I can agree with that, it’s just I only disagree with PP in terms of them being under the same race due to substantial DNA due to phenotypical investigation, because even in that case they were separated before “neutral mutation” investigation. As well, even noncoded or “neutral mutations” influences expressions of traits and selection, just indirectly. Thus it’s no coincidence that phenotypical models like Carleton Coon coresponds with modern clustering DNA.
Yes in that sense i agree because is absolutely possible we have more than a one ”dark skinned races”. But we can to separate subraces than races. Pygmies for example, they are a subsaharian subraces or race*
True, they are “Sub Saharan”, but They are Basically “phenotypically” between Bushmen and Negroids.
Bushmen are an early African Adaptation of man for the Southern Deserts and Grasslands, not quite negroid but similar in some respects but noted to be somewhat asiatic in another.
Yes, well, the blonde hair of guineans/australians and among caucasoids is to the epicanthic eyes of bushmen and among mongolids.
They would be like ashkenazi to the europeans as they really are to the subsaharian africans in genetic differences and also in the phenotypical aspect.
A question
”We” can create a ”complete northern european looking/phenotype” starting with a australian group, just selecting the ”european” traits in this group (whatever group)*
If yes ( i think it’s possible) so this hypothetical ”european looking” new people would have australian alleles*
If you don’t understand i can use google translator.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2139462/Riddle-Solomon-solved-Scientists-South-Sea-islanders-blond-hair-didnt-come-Europeans-evolved-separately.html
I actually I understood your question and, actually, the Jomon/ainu people of Japan come pretty close to such a “race” to which they were originally believed to be Caucasians.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/the-jomon-of-japan-13000-bc-to-300-bc/
The still have a slight asiatic surface look but pretty close to your theoretical scenario.
BTW it’s nice hearing from you again.
”BTW it’s nice hearing from you again.”
Thank you, =)
I tell you the same thing!!
You still continue to comment in the Lindsay blog*
Yeah I still comment there as well as writing some articles. You know that commentor “Chinedu” for racerealist’s blog? Well, he first showed up on Robert’s but I’ve managed to argue him off.
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/photo-of-phil/
I’m currently thinking of another article on Blacks and HBD.
Phil,
Keep up the good work kid. The same intellect and poise you use with race-realism, take it to whatever you choose to do in life. I can tell you’re a smart kid, make something out of yourself and don’t waste any time at all.
To RR,
Thanks.
Saw the picture of the Cockroach and it reminded me of Mugabe’s “found a picture of you” comment………
lol
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