Many times on this blog I have tried to estimate the IQs of various groups or individuals using simple regression, or in some cases multiple regression (a technique suggested to me by a Promethean).
Back in 2017, commenter Gypsy asked me to apply simple regression to Oxford and Cambridge students. He estimated that only one in 58 UK 18-year-olds qualify for these schools and said the correlation between IQ and GCSE was 0.7.
I replied by saying:
If one in 58 UK teens achieves A*A*A or better, then this implies that the median teen who obtains A*A*A or better is at the one in 116 level in academic achievement. If there were a perfect correlation between IQ and academic success in the UK, we’d expect the median IQ of these academic superstars to be 36 points above the UK mean of 100 (white norms), but since the correlation is probably about 0.7 (using the correlation between IQ and GCSE as a proxy), their expected average IQ would be 0.7(36) points above 100, or IQ 125.
Well it’s very rare that one of these theoretical statistical predictions gets tested by actual empirical data but when Gypsy recently inquired about the Raven scores of UK university students in general, I stumbled upon a startling fact. The median Oxford undergrad obtained a raw score of 27 out of 36 on the Advanced Progressive Matrices Set II:

https://us.talentlens.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Ravens_APM_Occupational_Users_Guide.pdf
As table 16 shows, that equates to the 75th percentile among the general young adult population of both the U.S. and the U.K.(circa 1992-1993) which equates to an IQ of 110 (U.S. & U.K. norms).
However the Oxford students had a 40 minute time limit and the general population could stay almost as long as they needed to. How big a difference does the time limit make? In one study, raw scores increased by about 2 points when people had unlimited time compared to just 40 minutes.

Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that if given unlimited time, Oxford undergrads would have averaged 29 instead of 27, moving them up to the 84th and 86th percentile of U.K. and U.S. norms respectively.
I estimated how Oxford undergrads would have scored untimed because it’s hard to find a general population sample in the U.S. or U.K. who took the test in 40 minutes like the Oxford students did, however table 16 does have timed stats for UK retail managers, which seems like the kind of average level occupation that would reflect the general population. A score of 27 in 40 minutes puts one in the 85th percentile of this group (virtually identical to the percentile of their estimated untimed score in general population samples).
This equates to an IQ of 116 (UK norms). This is 9 points lower than the IQ of 125 I had predicted in 2017, however it should be noted that the the Raven is a uni-dimensional test that only correlates 0.74 with more comprehensive tests like the WAIS. Thus it’s likely that on the WAIS, instead of scoring 15 IQ points above 100, they would have scored 15/0.74 = 20 IQ points above 100.
We also don’t know when the data was obtained. I’m assuming it was in the 1978 to 1993 era, however if it was substantially before then, the Flynn effect might have greatly deflated the score.
We also don’t know how representative the Oxford undergrads were. I’m guessing they were psychology students, who are likely fairly representative because I know at least at the University of Toronto, 60% of all undergrads take psychology.
But taking things at face value, it seems the most prestigious university in Europe has an average IQ of 120. No wonder David Wechsler defined IQs of 120+ as “superior intelligence”.
That’s just surprising. That low?
“Cognitive ability tests taken at age 11 correlate 0.81 with national school examinations taken at age 16.” – https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/cedar/oldstaff/stevestrand/dearyetal_inpress.pdf
Actually that might the be correlation with a latent educational factor rather than the actual GCSE grades…
The APM seems to be online. Just took it, if so. Very easy test – harder tests from online authors. 40 mins is way too much time. Then again, I might just have practice effect on me from obsessing over online tests.
But if most people that go into Oxford are humanities majors, then should we really be surprised that something correlating more with fluid intelligence than crystallized intelligence results in lower scores for them? Maybe the average is actually 125. That sounds more believable, anyways.
Can I ask for the link for the APM one that you took?
https://web.archive.org/web/20170707220206/http://splushka.com/intellect.htm
There are two tests here. The first one is supposedly the APM, the second I think is Victor Serebriakoff’s untimed test. Both have answers at the end of respective problems.
Thank you very much, this is very helpful.
Probably mostly psychology or humanities students. Mind you the A-Levels are less correlated to IQ than the SAT’s probably a lot less than 0.7.
Does the APM test more than just fluid abilities? I feel it has to, because younger populations get much lower percentiles country compared to the 25 year olds than on the wais iv matrix reasoning subtest.
younger people have more schooling so they might better understand the instructions, have more confidence & be more familiar with columns & rows
Quite the Richardson-like statement…
puppy what is the average iq of new york times subscribers? 10? 15? If u take into account the people that fot it for free for example as a workplace perk or ‘prize’ then it might be a lot higher. what do u think?
I would say the average NY Times subscriber would have an IQ of 108 (U.S. norms) or 105 (white norms).
Just the fact that they’re interested enough in news, books and art to subscribe shows intelligence & it’s written at a 10th grade level (2 grades above the average American adult)
Yes it promotes neocon propaganda but even a lot of very smart people fall for that
Pupppy is giving 100 extra points to people that agree with him on politics. sad
I don’t agree with them politically. I’m a tulsi supporter
Neocon propaganda? Really? Maybe in Bret Stephens’s op-eds but NYT always struck me as fairly noninterventionist and relatively open-minded on the Israel-Palestine issue. Insane David Horowitz routinely calls the NYT’s coverage “anti-Semitic.”
The real propaganda is in the WSJ. Noonan makes me wretch.
In the early 2000s they were obsessed with removing Saddam Hussein, especially Judith Miller.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller
ah pp beat me to it
My rank-order of average subscriber IQs goes like this:
PP 129 (supposedly)
Unz (his columns) 125
Sailer 120
WaPo 115-120
NYT/WSJ 115
CNN 105
Fox News/MSNBC 100
By far the most interesting data you’ve come across in a long time. Good job PP.
Thanks. And thanks for encouraging me to look into it.
Well theres the “psychology factor” diminishing the value of the data.
Also.. Holy shit its Gypsyman!
Do you think its reasnoable that mentally retarded or socially retarded people have the same voting power as people with no such disabilities. Would u endorse minimum iq and non autism requirements? We all know the rich control many pols but often the special needs people screw over voters too.
Why should someone with aspergers get the same voting power as a person who can tell if someone is joking or not? So bill gates gets to ruin the world by spending billions on nlacls then ruin it again by voting for hilary in 2016. idiot.
Gates probably has a low social IQ compared to others with a 170 SAT IQ. I doubt he has a low overall social IQ compared to the average American, although his body language is atrocious
Even the dumbest american wouldnt gove their money to africa.
It’s dumb to you because your only goal is to advance whites. His goal might be to feel like a good person, solve complex medical problems & get good publicity. Unless you know another person’s interests, it’s hard to judge whether they’re advancing them or just being a tool to advance someone else’s.
Terry tao says trumpy is unfit for office. Id bet some of the people terry thinks are fit for office are fully fledged psychopaths and criminal.
Terry is East Asian & an immigrant so from the perspective of his genetic interests, bashing trump is socially smart
Terry tao has no social ability. Hed probably endorse hilary.
This only supports the White Nationalist argument that Civic Nationalism is self-defeating. If even smart people like Sam Harris literally can’t fathom why people voted for Trump – can’t even begin to comprehend and articulate his opposition to Trump – logic will always be fleeting, even to the presumably logically minded. It’s pretty sad.
billy once again makes good point. all of you need to look at billys example.
Waou people stay on top 20-45 and then till 70 is the big dive. And at 70, you get the maximum inequality though. The 125IQ to 75IQ ratio goes from 3 to almost 30 !
That explains a lot.
What does everyone think of feminist philosophy of biology?
What’s that,?
Practitioners of feminist philosophy of biology use gender as an analytic category to conduct philosophical investigations of the biological sciences. Feminist philosophy of biology deploys feminist philosophical methods to examine the categories of sex and gender (sex and gender will be explained below) and its focus can range from considerations of particular biological knowledge claims to considerations of foundational concepts and methodologies in biology, the philosophy of biology, and the philosophy of science. In doing so, feminist philosophers of biology often show that the philosophical investigations of a particular science are intertwined with both ethics and politics.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminist-philosophy-biology/
I used to bash it a while back but I’ve read some of it and I don’t think it’s really that crazy anymore. I think it’s interesting.
I’m sorry but I don’t really get it. Is it just a pool of philosophical arguments against sexism?
What don’t you get?
The concept. Why is critique of evolution history through a feminist lenz considered a philosophy?
I could understand it better if you could give me some examples of what interests you about it.
How is it not philosophy? I think the way that feminist philosophers of biology and scientists critique reductionism and EP is interesting. For example, hormones.
Two good authors I think you should check out are Lynn Hankinson Nelson and Evelyn Fox Keller.
Any particular books by them?
Nelson: Biology and Feminism: A Philosophical Introduction.
Keller: Feminism and Science
Also check out Oyama: The Ontogeny of Information and Evolution’s Eye. (Short discussions.)
Word. I’ll check them out and get back to you.
What’s the HBD explanation for the fall of the Maya empire?
You can rule out the Jews for this one !
Hahaha
Nope you cant becuase theres evídence of Columbus having jewish ancestry.
He had nothing to do with the Maya though.
Unless Cortes et al had Jewish ancestry? It’s possible though I’m not aware. I’ll look into it later.
PP do you think there’s an “HBD” explanation for the fall of the Maya?
No I do not.
More seriously I am reading books – written by Jews – about Jewish people during Greek period (Ptolemaic and Seleucide) and Roman period.
It’s fascinating because you see some of Kevin MacDonald points but in much clearer way than his using modern social movements.
The treasonous treaty with Roman in -161 while they all had Greek names and privileges and the ideological warfare. I wonder if it wasn’t the same with Phenician (treasoned for Rome). But the 2 Greeks kingdom and Rome, had really to deal with a big diaspora (3% of population for Greeks, up to 10% for Rome) . I am just at the beginning.
They even used the KMcD concept of pathologization of the enemy. For example, they called Antiochos Epiphane, Antiochos epimane (the crazy) in libels ans pieces of art. That’s clever because it sticked.
We cant rule out the jews on ANYTHING at this point in time.
Philo, there were no Jews before -1500. So Jews didn’t cause Neanderthal extinctions for example.
Olmecs disappeared in -400. Mycenaean disappears in -1200.
Probably, the idea of transatlantic trade was jewish. I discovered recently that the Leghorn Jewish (Jewish in Livorno coming from Portugal and Spain, some of them having first relocated in Oran) created the chocolate trade (Livorno, Amsterdam, Bilbao and Caribbean) , called Granas. So as they were trading slaves in Spain (the Saqalibas) , it’s possible they had the all idea of the trade. Even before Muslim came to Spain, king Sisebut in 6th century prohibited to the Jewish having Christian slaves and also holding public service job.
Granas also invented the free ports that still exist today. They were invited by Come de Médicis who wanted to energize the abandoned city. And they topped expectations …
Mayan Civilization collapsed 592 years before Columbus. Being a jew this made Columbus very disappointed. The whole reason he set sail was to destroy them. He hated them for “reasons” like we all do. But he wanted to be the one to cement in history that it was a jew that got the guy that everyone disliked because “reasons”. Everyone would be so jealous. Columbus thought: Those no good bloody Mayans. Depriving jews of their rightful glory like that. Serves em right they collapsed for not still exiting so I could make them collapse. Bloody hell, No wonder everyone dislikes em.
The Mayans were located in the Yucatan.
They collapsed in 1 AD and then again in 900 A.D.
The Aztec capital was located where Mexico city is today.
Hernán Cortés conquered the Aztec empire for Spain in 1521.
The Toltec culture (/ˈtɒltɛk/) is an archaeological Mesoamerican culture that dominated a state centered in Tula, Hidalgo, Mexico in the early post-classic period of Mesoamerican chronology (ca. 900–1168 CE). Regarded by the Aztec as their predecessors.
The Olmec were a prehistoric people inhabiting the coast of Veracruz and western Tabasco on the Gulf of Mexico ( c. 1200–400 BC)
Aztec 1300 to 1521 AD
Toltec 900 to 1168 AD
Maya(2) 250 to 900 AD
Maya(1) 1800 BC to 1 AD
Olmec 1200 to 400 BC
The Incan empire was centralized in what is now Peru in 1438.
AK knows his stuff.
Got a source for that Columbus claim AK? (I now realize that’s sarcasm, but fuck it, keeping it anyway.)
Idk how HBDers would view it but I think the consensus is drought or just climate change in general
Yea that’s the main theory. There’s a new series (one-off? I don’t remember) about it. The Maya are really interesting to me because they did what they did completely independently.
PP, IQ estimate of the Maya?
In the 90s
So South American were as intelligent as the inuit?
According to Lynn, native Americans & Inuits score 86 & 91, respectively but it’s likely their genetic IQs are higher, because they live in the worst environments in North America, even below the ghetto
The Maya are Central American.
What justifies the “estimate” PP? The Maya alive today are like the Maya in the past? Yea, that’s false.
Well there isnt really a morphological difference. South and central American are both mongoloidish
They’re a distinct race. See Hardimon, Spencer.
I see what you’re saying but, if I recall correctly, there were three waves of migration over the Bering strait, with some back migration from South to North America.
I only consider race through a phenotypic perspective. They are not distinct enough to warrant separation.
I could maybe see what you’re saying if you meant North American vs south but even then my concept of race is even more macro than that.
I’m not saying they’re that distinct. But there is a difference. And you know I agree with you there.
And how about octopusses? They live in an even worse environment but you never mention that.
Even Mayan elite*
Finally Crowley time is upon us. Book is doing well almost 500 views. Heres a video to celebrate my success.
In my previous comment I explained it atrociously.
So, say for instance, on the APM, a 16 year old gets 20 questions right and a 25 year old gets 20 questions right. The 16 year old would have a much much higher IQ on the APM, but on the WAIS IV matrix reasoning, the subtest score would be identical if a 16 year old got 20 questions and if a 25 year old got 20 questions right. What causes this
I attended a grammar school (state selective school) which, in the 1970s, admitted the 25% of 12 year-old boys scoring highest on the intelligence test known as 11 Plus or 12 Plus. At the school leaving age of 16, a majority stayed on for the last two years of secondary education. The school strongly encouraged applications to Oxford and Cambridge by all students it thought likely to be accepted (it provided tuition in the special ‘Oxbridge’ entrance examinations which, then as now, were an alternative to the more normal A-level route). I cannot remember the exact numbers, but possibly 20% of my year applied to Oxford and Cambridge and possibly half of those applicants succeeded. It is my subjective impression that we were the brightest students in the school and that our abilities corresponded to the average at Oxford University. Make of it what you will, but I am certain that average IQ at Oxford is well above the 75th percentile.
If they had taken the test at their leisure their score would have equated to the 75th percentile, but given the 40 minute time limit, Oxford undergrads (at least this particular sample) are at least at the 85th percentile (at least on the raven, may score higher on verbal tests)
Philip, you say 1 in 40 got into Oxbridge. So it would be an average level of 1 in 80. If correlation between those selections and IQ were perfect, that would give 134 IQ at most. That’s the max you could get if there were a perfect measure of intelligence and intelligence was the unique factor .
But IQ test doesn’t correlate perfectly with « intelligence » defined as the common factor to all tests. Let’s say you’ ve a 0.9 correlation.
You know industriousness and other qualities enter into account, you would agree that a correlation of at most 0.7 between Oxbridge admission and intelligence because of other aspects.
Combined that’s 0.63. With that you get a 121,4 IQ.
It’s probably more 130 in math and physics and 110 in humanities though …
Are teens just slower at pattern recognition than adults, hence the huge disparity? Ability is the same, but answering 36 questions in 40 minutes, especially the harder ones will be pretty difficult for younger populations to do quickly as compared to the Matrix Reasoning subtest which is untimed.
If you’re talking about APM norms, the teen norms are from 1978 and the adult norms are from 1990s.
Although both are untimed, the adults took the test at home at their leisure under unsupervised condition. I don’t know how the teens were tested but I’m guessing it was at school under supervised conditions. That could explain why adults did better
Soo, if the adults were timed or if the kids were given forever, they’d score the same. That makes sense. But how do we know that the adults did take forever?
Neither was timed but the adults were left the test at their home & the tester picked it up a week or so later. When you’re at home you take breaks & then approach the same problems the next day with a fresh perspective
The kids were probably told they could take all the time they needed, but probably took it at school where it’s all in one sitting
Oh, but still, if you do take a timed test, it’d pretty much be the same as standardized conditions anyway right? I mean, the timing itself is the standardization.
Pumpkin, do you read a lot of books?
Pumpkin, would the leisureness of the adults really make that much of a difference? Like, a 6 question difference? That seems like a lot. Has it been proven that doing the Raven’s Matrices at leisure improve scores instead of doing it during one sitting? Also, wouldn’t the Adult brain be fried after work?
Also, I don’t think the variations can be simply explained by the adults taking it in leisure. Between the ages of 15-18 (which the scores are identical on the wisc iv and WAIS IV), the average on the APM spans from 45 questions to 52, that’s a lot of variation, and they’d all be taken in High School under standardized conditions.
One thing to keep in mind is the motivation factor. I don’t know much about the Oxford study, but the Harvard students who scored 128 on the WAIS participated via sign up sheets for cash. They get paid no matter how well they do on the test, or whether they put forth any effort at all. I’m sure some tried very hard, but I’m also sure there were some who just showed up to get their money. In contrast, they were all highly motivated to do well on the SAT because that determined whether they got into their university of choice. I suspect this is part of the reason why the IQ scores at these elite schools aren’t as high as we might expect. I would also guess if you had Harvard students retake the SAT for a few dollars, they would probably score quite a bit lower just because they don’t have the same level of motivation to do well.
You could make the same argument about everyone taking the WAIS. The test is normed on people who just volunteered to take it, so Harvard students are no less motivated than the reference group they’re being compared to.
“I know at least at the University of Toronto, 60% of all undergrads take psychology.”
36000 psychology students? Good God! At least they’re not all psy majors.
Pumpkin, would practicing an RPM test over and over till you improve from 60th percentile to 90th help you jump to 90th percentile on WAIS IV wais matrix reasoning, or on the WAIS matrix reasoning, would you most likely get 60th percentile?
You’ld probably get some improvement on the WAIS matrix but not as much as you got on the RPM
How much improvement on average?
Pumpkin, I don’t think the reason that the Raven norms are different between the ages 16 and 23 are because of the fact that the tests were done at leisure. It might affect a couple of points, but since it wasn’t a second retest, and the folks probably completed the test in one sitting, or took it in segments. there was this study done which tried to convert RPM to RAPM. They got a bunch of college dudes and dudettes, and tested them using Otis Lennon. I read somewhere that average IQs don’t show much difference, if any, on group vs individual. The average IQ in this study was 108.57 or something like that, and the average RAPM was around 21.8. Now, in this article, you show that the raven deflates IQ by around 5 points, se folk’s raven IQ would be 103, almost perfectly matching the norms. I think it might be because adults pick up on the repetition of the more difficult patterns. Maybe the WAIS IV is testing the picking up of concepts much better than the Ravens. The Ravens might just be you seeing the repetition. This could also explain the much larger practice effects in Ravens than on WAIS matrix reasoning. Ravens seems like a pretty bad test to retake. It’s like a test that can only be taken once, because you get everything. Is my reasoning above correct?
Am I kind of being annoying asking these questions?
Pumpkin, I can’t see how 14-16 year olds would only get 11-12 problems on the APM correct? Is this underestimating their intelligence?
Also, the Slovakian and Swiss norms are vastly different from the UK norms, even though the IQs are the same in these nations. What explains this? Was it that the kids in the UK and US weren’t trying super hard?
RAPM timed 28/36 is an IQ of 132 in the general population, young adults. A friend is a psychologist he has a raven test and manual, he also said >135 IQ RAPM cannot measure (30 and more answers). Sigma society use that criterion (28 correct) for admission http://www.sigmasociety.com/old/members_e.html So that score of 27 would be much higher IQ in the general population, implying you were right about your predictions.
I scored a 104 first time I took it and a 108 second time taking it. Pretty robust test.
Most accurate test imo.
not-crazy is socially constructed, like “beatiful” italian women.