[Please post all off-topic comments in the most recent open thread. They will not be posted here]
One reason people deny HBD, is they don’t believe intelligence has evolved much or at all since modern humans left Africa tens of thousands of years ago, and diverged into the races we know today. Earlier today, commenter Swank defended this view:
…there are GOOD REASONS to believe intelligence hasn’t ‘evolved’ since then…
with pleiotropic and polygenic traits, the mutation rate is SLOW
in fact, the mutations humanity’s forebears that changed intelligence took several hundred thousand/millions of years to occur at a time. and it just seems like they were mutations quickly went to fixation, altering brain size/cranial capacity/whatever.
homo sapiens have not been around long.
so, with regard to skin color, eye color, nose shape, whatever…..
these things are likely controlled by not so many genes and subject to new mutations adding genetic variance….and we see diversity here.other traits? not so much.
There have been scientists who’ve agreed with Swank about intelligence evolving slowly. For example, geneticist Spencer Wells says in his TED talk (see the 14 minute mark of video below), that from 1 million years ago, to about 65,000 years, there was a long period of cultural stasis where stone tools and other artifacts shows virtually no improvement. Then suddenly after 65,000 years ago, the archeological record shows radical improvement. Wells believes this was because fully complex language began to appear around that time.
Scholar Richard Klein has been making a similar argument for decades, but Klein believes this major genomic change occurred 40 or 50 thousand years ago.
Both Wells and Klein argued that the change occurred in Africa and caused humans to expand beyond Africa, but apparently disagree on when humans left Africa, which is understandable given the uncertainties in dating such ancient events (increasingly, scientists believe that behavioral modernity occurred much more gradually than Wells or Klein implied, but there does seem to be a consensus that technology was largely static from over 1 million kya to less than 300 kya)
Like Swank, Klein seems to think it was the last major cognitive change, stating:
What happened 40,000 or 50,000 years ago was the last major change in the genotype. At least the last major biological change. Evolution continues, but the evolution that’s involved in making us capable of wielding this vast variety of cultures–that probably stopped around 40,000 or 50,000 years ago and there’s been no essential change since.
Mitchell Leslie writes:
Forget about the construction of the first cities or the introduction of the internal combustion engine. The revolution that made the biggest difference occurred on the savanna of East Africa roughly 45,000 years ago, Klein and others maintain.
Stephen Jay Gould agreed with Klein, famously stating:
There has been no biological change in humans in 40,000 or 50,000 years. Everything we call culture and civilization we’ve built with the same body and brain
However scholar Greg Cochran is having none of it, stating:
I can’t think of any genuine reasons for thinking that human evolution had stopped. Some people seem to have thought that 40,000 years was small potatoes compared to the time since the chimp-human split (five or six million years), so that there wouldn’t have been much change over that time period. Of course this ignores the massive ecological changes that humans experienced over the last 40 millennia, and the resulting selective pressures. Others seem to have thought that newly clever humans instantly came up with a technological fix for any problem that arose, which would have removed the selective pressure associated with the problem. Face it, we’re not that smart. People suffered from malaria for thousands of years before figuring out that it was transmitted by mosquitoes (in 1897, by Ronald Ross) — and we haven’t knocked it out yet.
And often when we did solve problems, they didn’t stay solved. For example, whenever we came up with better methods of food production, population increased until people were hungry again. At that point you see selection for metabolic efficiency, for the ability to digest newly available foods such as milk, etc…
Speculating on why so many scientists believe there’s been little important recent evolution, Cochran states:
…Certainly some were (are) heavily invested in a vision of human sameness. I’m not sure how much of that is driven by practical payoffs: ethnic and racial differences continue to exist whether people “believe” in them or not…
…On the other hand, some certainly worry about political fallout of possible discoveries, about the impact on their NIH funding, etc….
… I think that some are genuinely confused. This is easier than you might think since very few biologists or human-science types know much about genetics and natural selection. Others simply don’t know much about human variation, while others are probably just spreading ink.
Elsewhere in the same interview Cochran states:
Cranial capacity has shrunk 10% in 15,000 years: that’s the fastest rate of change ever seen in the human fossil record, by far. Consider the number of genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees: they occurred over about six million years, from which you can determine the average rate or change. The number of genes that are apparently being replaced by new versions is much larger than you would expect from that long-term rate — something like 100 times larger.
Of course Cochran’s assuming the decline cranial capacity is genetic. Richard Lynn argued, that like the Holocene decline in height, it was caused by malnutrition/disease, and that its (full?) recovery in the 20th century partly caused the Flynn effect.
[redacted by pp, april 25, 2018] is confused
“In general, traits that are not under selection can have substantial heritable components, because if they were under positive or negative selection, the genes underlying those traits would go to fixation or be eliminated (respectively), eliminating the heritability; it is this fact that implies that if the trait in question is highly heritable, then it is probably not an adaptation.”
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/heritability.html
“The pleiotropic model investigated, in contrast to previous models, implies that common mutations of large effect are responsible for most of the genetic variation for quantitative traits, except when the trait is fitness itself. ”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4676519/
his statement about “ecological pressures” has almost nothing to do with anything.
in fact, human intelligence is what allowed human beings to develop MANY DIFFERENT mental skills to accommodate the every-varying environments humans found themselves encountering.
the fact that humanity has been able to thrive in many different ways in many different environments suggests that this general factor is common to all and roughly equivalent. it’s only in viewing one way or another as ‘better’ without justification that this idea of difference emerges, i.e. believing ‘civilization’ to be better than ‘savage’ society when up until 150 or 200 years ago, hunter gatherers had better outcomes on almost every metric.
The sensory tools humans use to sift through the cascading complexity of the world are ultimately not that variable and this implies that between extremes there are differences in g. Living in a civilized society undoubtedly requires more cognitive power, the only possible exception is motor skill, which even then, a bushman is still probably inferior in the context to a wealthy programmer, who also boxes, or sprints, or even lifts weights in his free time.
Primate intelligence is domain General and the brain is not modular.
“brain is not modular.”
Good to know we agree that a main premise of EP is bullshit. I believe Fodor and Putnam were the ones to propose this back in the 60s.
If only you’d address the argument identifying all EP hypotheses as just-so stories and accept that all EP hypotheses are just-so stories then we can get somewhere.
In case anyone wants to take a shot:
P1) A just-so story is an ad-hoc hypothesis
P2) A hypothesis is ad-hoc if it’s not independently verified (verified independently of the data the hypothesis purports to explain)
P3) EP hypotheses cannot be independently verified
C) Therefore EP hypotheses are just-so stories
“Good to know we agree that a main premise of EP is bullshit.”
Modularity of the brain is a main premise of Evolutionary psychology? How so? And do you know what i mean by “not modular”?
“If only you’d address the argument identifying all EP hypotheses as just-so stories ”
All historical science, including evolution is a just so story. Some just so stories are more valid than others based on independent experiments.(don’t get this confused with logtical positivism) I endorse probabilistic causation and relative validity. Of course though I’ve cited arguments for historical sciences empirical edge over “hard” sciences before.
“Modularity of the brain is a main premise of Evolutionary psychology? How so? And do you know what i mean by “not modular”?”
Massive modularity hypothesis.
“All historical science, including evolution is a just so story”
So what possible test could show a byproduct is an adaptation or vice versa?
Hypotheses that can be independently verified are not just-so stories.
Massive modularity is simply the belief that the brain consists of many different faculties that function largely independently of each other.
At least from what I understand…sounds wrong but many EPers go with this, including Satoshi Kanazawa.
“Hypotheses that can be independently verified are not just-so stories.”
SBH CIH, CLASH, are all independently verified, but they’re still just so stories. They’re the most accurate stories we have pertaining Human encephalization. If you weren’t there, you can’t exactly know. Though as technology increases, the Soft sciences, will become notably harder, because the tools we use for making inferences about the past will increase in efficiency and decrease in error rate.
swank is peepee re-posting me.
if i were a 5’3″ mixed race man with green eyes i’d be gay too.
Hahaha! No, but I agree a lot of Swank’s comments have been STRONGLY influenced by you: IQ tests suck but are the best we have, Mike Tyson is SMART but would flunk tests etc.
everyone here repeats what they like from others and everyone here has repeated things others have said first.
to act above the fray is prole.
🙂
tyson IS smart.
no fighter has been as dominant…when he was dominant.
BUT marciano WAS unique.
he had short arms so in order to land suzie-q he needed to take it.
best conditioning of any boxer ever.
he was just as good in round 15 as in round 1.
This changed though, following the death of lightweight Duk Koo Kim in 1982[2] after his fourteen-round fight with Ray Mancini. Almost immediately, the World Boxing Council (WBC) issued a statement saying that WBC world title bouts would be set for 12 rounds…It is frequently used in the expression “going the distance,” which means fighting a full bout without being knocked out.
given his physique, marciano is the GOAT.
nolo contendere.
the white dominance of MMA…
white guys win…
when the sport includes…
what?
i don’t think Tyson was particularly great from a career POV.
as a KO artist and as an example of how much MUSCLE and FEROCITY can matter, he can’t be beat.
but as soon as anyone who (a) knew how to box and (b) was either taller or heavier or both got in the ring with him, Tyson was toast.
Buster Douglas is/was a featherfist!
i mean, more power to him…an inspiration really…5’10 220 lbs
and NO
rocky marciano is only ‘great’ because of the unique differences between then and now in the sport that allow his record to seem much better than it is.
he was tiny! he wasn’t a REAL heavyweight!
afaik he never even topped 200 lbs.
and his only great asset was his freaking chin — as in the ability to get hit in the fucking face repeatedly and keep going. all hail Rome…
Ali is much the same….but Ali is even WORSE
Ali had a LITTLE bit of speed as an olympic boxer…A LITTLE.
however, once he got older his strategy devolved into just taking a lot of punishment. that’s why the float like a butterfly sting like a bee stuff, as applied to him, is HILARIOUS.
old school boxing was much more about chin than skill.
If you genuinely believe what you’re writing and aren’t a hack like Klein, Gould and the other jewish necromancers, I don’t think I could help you.
To seriously believe nothing has happened in the past 50k years is definitely a doozy.
<The sensory tools humans use to sift through the cascading complexity of the world are ultimately not that variable and this implies that between extremes there are differences in g
no it doesn’t.
if environment A requires bridges and buildings and farming for a populous to survive, the populous will be motivated to develop “g” to a certain end.
if environment B requires nothing more than loin cloths and occasional trips to the river, the populous will be motivated to develop “g” to a certain end.
these ends will be different and result in entirely different societies and still not mean any meaningful difference in ‘g.’
Living in a civilized society undoubtedly requires more cognitive power
in some senses, sure. in others, no.
people in civilized society are extremely stupid when it comes to basic wisdom.
for example, the notion of working for someone else for your entire life — doing what they say, when they say, structuring your life around a wage, etc.
this is stupid.
voluntary alienation from labor is stupid.
and most civilized people are too stupid to differentiate jive from reality.
it doesn’t seem like hunter-gatherers are so impractical.
The psychologist Michael Cole and some colleagues once gave members of the Kpelle tribe, in Liberia, a version of the WISC similarities test: they took a basket of food, tools, containers, and clothing and asked the tribesmen to sort them into appropriate categories. To the frustration of the researchers, the Kpelle chose functional pairings. They put a potato and a knife together because a knife is used to cut a potato. “A wise man could only do such-and-such,” they explained. Finally, the researchers asked, “How would a fool do it?” The tribesmen immediately re-sorted the items into the “right” categories.
I
D
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LOLO
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”in some senses, sure. in others, no.
people in civilized society are extremely stupid when it comes to basic wisdom.
for example, the notion of working for someone else for your entire life — doing what they say, when they say, structuring your life around a wage, etc.
this is stupid.
voluntary alienation from labor is stupid.”
you mean
ON AVERAAAAAAAAGE
BUT
are you suggesting that at least in ”basic wisdom” serviliezed humans are dumber…
not basically the same**
They are mostly smarter dogs, still dogs.
domestication =
quantitative smart
qualitative dumb.
Smart enough to
learn
memorize
retrieve
to do IQ tests
Dumb enough to
understand /via endless curiosity/ the macro-reality [self knowledge, other knowledge or true emotional intelligence, space or geography, time or history]
“if environment A requires bridges and buildings and farming for a populous to survive, the populous will be motivated to develop “g” to a certain end.
if environment B requires nothing more than loin cloths and occasional trips to the river, the populous will be motivated to develop “g” to a certain end.”
See you’re interpreting g as the correlation of skills, like astronomy vs psychology and so on and so forth. When I say g I mean the communicative efficiency between sensory organs in the brain. That’s what i meant by less variable. Ultimately people in both environments use the same two abilities to communicate and navigate their world: hand eye coordination and language. Environment A obviously selects for these two abilities more.
and yet you need none of that to be fabulous!
heterosexual men never use the word “fabulous”.
no, my dear boy, heterosexual men say whatever they want.
Expert in heterossexual men…
In general, traits that are not under selection can have substantial heritable components, because if they were under positive or negative selection, the genes underlying those traits would go to fixation or be eliminated (respectively), eliminating the heritability; it is this fact that implies that if the trait in question is highly heritable, then it is probably not an adaptation.
I agree IQ’s not highly heritable, but I think it’s probably somewhere between 0.3 to 0.6. Also, it could be that selection pressures relaxed in recent times allowing the heritability to climb back up.
his statement about “ecological pressures” has almost nothing to do with anything.
in fact, human intelligence is what allowed human beings to develop MANY DIFFERENT mental skills to accommodate the every-varying environments humans found themselves encountering.
the fact that humanity has been able to thrive in many different ways in many different environments suggests that this general factor is common to all and roughly equivalent. it’s only in viewing one way or another as ‘better’ without justification that this idea of difference emerges, i.e. believing ‘civilization’ to be better than ‘savage’ society when up until 150 or 200 years ago, hunter gatherers had better outcomes on almost every metric.
You don’t have to believe one is better. You could simply believe that novel environmental challenges selected for people who could learn and adapt quickly. I’m sure when humans left Africa, a lot of people died because they couldn’t figure out how to build fire, or make warm clothes and shelter fast enough.
You could simply believe that novel environmental challenges selected for people who could learn and adapt quickly. I’m sure when humans left Africa, a lot of people died because they couldn’t figure out how to build fire, or make warm clothes and shelter fast enough.
That’s stupid. Prehistoric migrations didn’t happen with planes and parachutes. it took thousands of years for humans to colonize the planet and no one ever experienced an environment that was very different from those of their forefathers.
In comparison, the transition from agrarian societies to industrial ones is a dramatic change that demanded behavioral adaptability, or bodies are barely keeping up. Maybe our brains aren’t so adapted either judging from the many “psychiatric disorders” that are spreading now and that are unheard of in traditional communities.
Furthermore, the whole planet was colder and drier before the holocene. The nights can be cold in Africa during the dry season and Southern Africa still experiences snowfall. With the temperatures of this era, cold temperatures wouldn’t have been a novel challenge at all. Anyway, Homo sapiens is not the first primate to live in non-tropical regions. Neanderthal and Erectus did before, Japanese macaques still do.
That’s stupid. Prehistoric migrations didn’t happen with planes and parachutes. it took thousands of years for humans to colonize the planet and no one ever experienced an environment that was very different from those of their forefathers.
Their forefathers encountered cold weather, but encountering weather cold enough to kill is a different story. Did Homo erectus live in the coldest regions during the Last Glacial Maximum? Neanderthals were PHYSICALLY adapted to the cold, thus didn’t need as much behavioral adaption to survive, but even their big brained selves didn’t survive the Last Glacial Maximum especially given competition from modern humans
Their forefathers encountered cold weather, but encountering weather cold enough to kill is a different story.
When I say forefathers I’m not talking about Africans, I’m talking about non-Africans. For instance, the first settlers of the British isles weren’t 2, 3 or 4 generations away from Africa but hundreds. So whatever new challenge that was specific to Britain couldn’t have been much different from anything faced in France, or even anything faced 100 generations ago in Turkey or I don’t know where else. Plus Modern-day Europeans aren’t even descended from the first hunter-gatherers. Large migrations of farmers from the Middle East took place during the holocene.
Anyway, heat kills just as much, yet you are not making up stories of behavioral adaptions against dehydration and for cooling.
Either way, surviving cold temperatures is easy. Fire was domesticated by homo erectus, caves and igloos keep temperatures mild and fur and skins keep warm. None of it is a technological brekthrough.
Neanderthals were PHYSICALLY adapted to the cold
Inuits are too, Cro-Magnons likely were. Modern Europeans aren’t, because Europe isn’t cold.
but even their big brained selves didn’t survive the Last Glacial Maximum
Neanderthals experienced many more glaciations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_glaciation
When I say forefathers I’m not talking about Africans, I’m talking about non-Africans. For instance, the first settlers of the British isles weren’t 2, 3 or 4 generations away from Africa but hundreds. So whatever new challenge that was specific to Britain couldn’t have been much different from anything faced in France, or even anything faced 100 generations ago in Turkey or I don’t know where else.
They did encounter progressively colder climates very gradually, but even still, there must have been sudden weather shifts that nothing in their cultural past could prepare them for, where only the smartest survived. Whether these were frequent or extreme enough to help explain current IQ differences is speculation. I just think that for those who believe in the HBD hierarchy, cold winters is the most likely explanation for the IQ-skin color correlation.
Plus Modern-day Europeans aren’t even descended from the first hunter-gatherers. Large migrations of farmers from the Middle East took place during the holocene.
But they’re partly descended from them. Replacement was nowhere near complete.
Anyway, heat kills just as much, yet you are not making up stories of behavioral adaptions against dehydration and for cooling.
Primates had 25 million years to physically adapt to the heat and hundreds of thousands of years to culturally adapt. It wasn’t as much of a novel challenge as a body built for Africa trying to survive in Eurasia. Now if Neanderthals had wandered into Africa with their cold adapted bodies, that would have tested their wits.
Either way, surviving cold temperatures is easy. Fire was domesticated by homo erectus,
But did they know how to make it? Even Neanderthals apparently didn’t.
caves and igloos keep temperatures mild
You have to find a cave that isn’t taken, and building igloos requires spatial IQ. You also have to leave the cave to find food, which is less available in the winter.
and fur and skins keep warm.
Only when they’re sewn very tightly and fitted to your body parts which Neanderthals couldn’t do. Even today tons of kids flunk sewing class in high school.
Inuits are too, Cro-Magnons likely were.
Not as much. Cro-Magnons were taller and skinnier than Neanderthals. They were built for the tropics and still had black skin
Neanderthals experienced many more glaciations
Were they as extreme? During the last glacial maximum entire countries emptied out completely.
I’ll let you have the last word.
I’ll let you have the last word.
Nah, I’ll give it to you. Don’t need to waste time arguing over just-so stories.
I agree IQ’s not highly heritable, but I think it’s probably somewhere between 0.3 to 0.6. Also, it could be that selection pressures relaxed in recent times allowing the heritability to climb back up.
except society is becoming more competitive based on IQ, according to HBD hero Charles Murray, and the industrial revolution certainly seemed to accelerate this selective process.
we don’t have any good reason that the skills represented by IQ are less important now than they were in the past.
You don’t have to believe one is better. You could simply believe that novel environmental challenges selected for people who could learn and adapt quickly. I’m sure when humans left Africa, a lot of people died because they couldn’t figure out how to build fire, or make warm clothes and shelter fast enough.
this is ridiculous. people in africa were not stupid. the manipulation of fire predates humanity, so by the time homo sapiens were around we had likely mastered it; hearths have also been around longer than homo sapiens have. and weaving was around before we left Africa, as well.
this idea that the cold was just that fierce is so far-fetched.
neanderthals were stupid and yet managed to do just fine in the cold.
and even if you buy that neanderthals weren’t stupid, they definitely were not as creative as humans…which makes them the East Asian to homo sapiens White, I guess…
except society is becoming more competitive based on IQ, according to HBD hero Charles Murray,
Just because you win, doesn’t mean your genes do.
we don’t have any good reason that the skills represented by IQ are less important now than they were in the past.
Low IQ people have been having more kids
this is ridiculous. people in africa were not stupid. the manipulation of fire predates humanity, so by the time homo sapiens were around we had likely mastered it;
We still haven’t mastered it. The Tasmanian aboriginals had no idea how to make fire. The director of the movie Quest for Fire was not able to make fire without matches. The Neanderthals did not know how to make fire. And even when skills are acquired, they can be quickly lost when skilled members of the tribe die.
hearths have also been around longer than homo sapiens have. and weaving was around before we left Africa, as well.
Just because certain skills may have been strongly selected outside Africa doesn’t mean they were absent in Africa.
this idea that the cold was just that fierce is so far-fetched.
I think it’s far-fetched to deny massive selection would occur when going from a tropical environment that primates had 25 million years to adapt to, to entering cold so extreme, frost bite occurs in 9 minutes.
neanderthals were stupid and yet managed to do just fine in the cold.
and even if you buy that neanderthals weren’t stupid, they definitely were not as creative as humans…which makes them the East Asian to homo sapiens White, I guess…
Neanderthals had small populations which retarded their cultural and genetic evolution. But they might have been smart. The tools they made are extremely difficult for anthropology grad students to master, and the glue they made is hard for even today’s scientists to replicate. Neanderthals also were very short and muscular which insulated their bodies. It takes more intelligence to survive the cold when you have a tall skinny black skinned body, and you have to compete against equally intelligent members of your own species for scarce ice age resources.
Just because you win, doesn’t mean your genes do.
then it’s not ‘winning’ at all and we don’t have much of a reason “selection” is operating anyway…which is what the stats suggest.
low IQ people have always had ‘the most kids’ in any civilization….
indeed, isn’t that precisely what Rushtard proclaimed about r-selected peoples? the poor would follow an r strategy, would they not?
and it looks like wealthy educated women are having more children now, not less
https://qz.com/1125805/the-reason-the-richest-women-in-the-us-are-the-ones-having-the-most-kids/
I think it’s far-fetched to deny massive selection would occur when going from a tropical environment that primates had 25 million years to adapt to, to entering cold so extreme, frost bite occurs in 9 minutes.
except we didn’t INSTANTLY go from tropical paradise to tundra and you know it.
We still haven’t mastered it.
The director of the movie Quest for Fire was not able to make fire without matches
the cultural knowledge exists, he just isn’t aware of it because it’s obsolete now. that doesn’t mean that we, as a species, hadn’t mastered it.
It takes more intelligence to survive the cold when you have a tall skinny black skinned body,
it’s not even known if neanderthals could make fire.
humans could make fire. i think that greatly decreases the amount of ‘additional intelligence’ required.
and you have to compete against equally intelligent members of your own species for scarce ice age resources.
they were not that scarce for homo sapiens and his already big brain.
our predecessors that went north faced selective pressure and weren’t smart enough to do this competing with their minds, so they became short and muscular — neanderthals…
homo sapiens, on the other hand, didn’t really change much beyond skin color, eye color, and hair texture. probably because we were smart and had highly developed social skills and better tools. it was in the bag once we got there….this whole myth of it being that tough for homo sapiens is a myth.
then it’s not ‘winning’ at all
if you’re getting what most people want, you’re winning, regardless of whether it’s good for your genes. yes, what most people want was good for their genes in the past (which is why we evolved to want it), but the environment has changed so rapidly that today not so much.
low IQ people have always had ‘the most kids’ in any civilization….
Well, all the more reason to think selection pressures have relaxed and thus heritability has gone up, by your own logic
and it looks like wealthy educated women are having more children now, not less
But 30 years ago not so much. Indeed in the 1930s they were warning about massive dysgenics. The point is there’s been no long-term selection trend for high IQ in the West in a very long time
except we didn’t INSTANTLY go from tropical paradise to tundra and you know it.
I realize, but compared to 25 million years as tropical primates, and hundreds of thousands of years as tropical modern humans, it was fast, and even going from 0°C to −38 °C is massive change that can occur in the same winter and kill almost everyone.
humans could make fire.
Do you have a source saying exactly when we could make fire (as opposed to merely use it)? I cited a source saying Neanderthals could not. And racial differences in prognathism may suggest differences in the consumption of cooked meat.
our predecessors that went north faced selective pressure and weren’t smart enough to do this competing with their minds, so they became short and muscular — neanderthals…
homo sapiens, on the other hand, didn’t really change much beyond skin color, eye color, and hair texture. probably because we were smart and had highly developed social skills and better tools.
Or…
Proto-Neanderthals entered Eurasia before behavioral modernity had appeared so their best strategy was physical. We entered after behavioral modernity, so our best strategy was behavioral. We didn’t change much physically but we were selected for even more behavioral modernity.
I’m more than happy to be proven wrong. Someone could do a study where a large group of Bushmen volunteers (separated into different tribes) are placed in the Canadian wilderness every summer and then each year, as the seasons change, you could see which ones can adapt the best before having to be removed from the cold for their own safety. If there’s a correlation of at least +0.3 between IQ (as measured by a culture reduced test) and performance at this challenge (year after year, so they’d have time to learn), then Cold Winter Theory is supported.
Because 0.3 is a moderate correlation 🙂 :
Value of rStrength of relationship-1.0 to -0.5 or 1.0 to 0.5 Strong -0.5 to -0.3 or 0.3 to 0.5 Moderate -0.3 to -0.1 or 0.1 to 0.3 Weak -0.1 to 0.1 None or very weak
I’ll let you have the last word.
scarce ice age resources
like all HBDers peepee just makes up her “facts”.
1. ice age europe was chock-a-block with megafauna and the opposite of chock-a-block with people.
2. no savage has ever starved to death. without agriculture there are no famines.
and an h^2 of .3 is pathetic but it would mean that it should be possible at some point to predict IQ directly from the genome with correlation .55 to actual measured IQ.
this is certainly a correlation strong enough for eugenics to work.
at the same time such a genome score would over-predict the IQs of those with the highest genome scores and the IQs of hypothetical future breeds, because evolution is NOT linear…what was a negative allele may become a positive allele within a very different genome, a genome which doesn’t exist today.
beauty could be turned into a quantitative trait yet breeding people for beauty would never result in people prettier than the prettiest “wild type”.
yes, what most people want was good for their genes in the past (which is why we evolved to want it)
not necessarily! in either case!
what most people want is TO BELONG. nothing more! that’s why most people could never actually philosophize…
that they want several other ‘things’ to fill that need does not mean that those ‘things’ are ‘good for their genes.’
Well, all the more reason to think selection pressures have relaxed and thus heritability has gone up, by your own logic
even more reason to think this ‘selection’ never happened…
I realize, but compared to 25 million years as tropical primates, and hundreds of thousands of years as tropical modern humans, it was fast,
several of humanity’s predecessors ventured north, so that characterization of pre-homo sapien diaspora is inaccurate.
Do you have a source saying exactly when we could make fire
“Claims for the earliest definitive evidence of control of fire by a member of Homo range from 1.7 to 0.2 million years ago (Mya).[1] Evidence for the controlled use of fire by Homo erectus, beginning some 600,000 years ago, has wide scholarly support.[2][3] Flint blades burned in fires roughly 300,000 years ago were found near fossils of early but not entirely modern Homo sapiens in Morocco.[4] Evidence of widespread control of fire by anatomically modern humans dates to approximately 125,000 years ago.[5]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans
but hey, i’m sure it’s the liberal wiki conspiracy.
Someone could do a study where a large group of Bushmen volunteers (separated into different tribes) are placed in the Canadian wilderness every summer and then each year, as the seasons change, you could see which ones can adapt the best before having to be removed from the cold for their own safety. If there’s a correlation of at least +0.3 between IQ (as measured by a culture reduced test) and performance at this challenge (year after year, so they’d have time to learn), then Cold Winter Theory is supported.
not really…
you would have to move the Bushman gradually north from the equator and see if any of this supposed selection happened. if, over let’s say, 200 years or so, you saw some sort of major effect in that migration…then maybe it’d be supported. but we both know even bushman are too smart for that.
I’m more than happy to be proven wrong
you say that but really…
Because 0.3 is a moderate correlation
no you to refer to the dummy manual:
‘+0.30. A weak uphill (positive) linear relationship’
http://www.dummies.com/education/math/statistics/how-to-interpret-a-correlation-coefficient-r/
I’ll let you have the last word.
and before you try to say control doesn’t mean make…
“Eventually, early humans figured out how to create fire. Given archaeological evidence, this likely occurred no earlier than 700,000 years ago and no later than 120,000 years ago”
https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/07/23/how-and-when-did-humans-discover-fire
i’m thinking swank has graduated to the ultimate enhancing drug…
amphetamine.
he claims to be a juicer. so he can answer this question maybe.
if i have achieved a certain level of strength as measured by one rep max…
if i stop juicing do i lose that strength?
that is, are ‘roids just a short cut, or are they a sine qua non, for strength?
if the latter then ‘roids should be prescribed for flabby men…until they aren’t flabby anymore.
and i’m NOT kidding.
1. one of the yuge problems for un-fit people is that their fitness gains can take months or a whole year. they give up when they see no results.
2. so if ‘roids gets you where you wanna be in a much shorter time…the cure for “dad body”…
3. but if once you stop…maintaining the same exercise regime…it all goes away…then it’s a bad drug.
it seems some porn actresses juice a little.
this can make them more attractive to an extent. they’re “fit”.
but it also leads to hypertrophy of the clitoris and the labia minora.
this can be attractive to a point.
but if i wanted a dick and balls i’d be gay.
“if i have achieved a certain level of strength as measured by one rep max…
if i stop juicing do i lose that strength?”
It really depends on kcal intake, intensity etc. But there should be a loss of strength after AAS use is discontinued.
” one of the yuge problems for un-fit people is that their fitness gains can take months or a whole year. they give up when they see no results.”
Yea, if they’re doing it wrong… But most people see immediate differences, called ‘noob gains’ for about 6 months which then begin to taper off.
“2. so if ‘roids gets you where you wanna be in a much shorter time…the cure for “dad body”…”
True. You need to know how to use AAS though; most people don’t know how to.
“3. but if once you stop…maintaining the same exercise regime…it all goes away…then it’s a bad drug.”
Why would you stop?
(NOTE: This is not me advocating for steroid use.)
For info on so-called ‘roid rage’ and racial differences in AAS use see:
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2018/02/10/steroid-mythconceptions-and-racial-differences-in-steroid-use/
“if the latter then ‘roids should be prescribed for flabby men…until they aren’t flabby anymore.”
Body type comes down to diet; sure you can get shredded on cutting agents like Winni and huge on D-Bol etc, but your diet needs to be on point, if not, you’ll have the dad-bod.
“Body type” meaning fat percentage.
maybe i’m just weird but the biggest turn on is…
she likes it. she really likes it.
and she’s a person not just an ass.
but it is true that the second best is man > woman.
thing is…
Suzanne Pleshette is one of the hottest women ever.
and a jew!
sad!
if the gains you made are past your genetic limit, then yeah you’ll lose those. otherwise, no.
(1) wut? newbie gains are the fastest they will ever come and honestly are not unlike the gains that come on a steroid cycle for an intermediate lifter. people put on like 15-30 pounds of solid muscle in their first year WHILE losing fat at the same time.
(2) lol there’s a whole art and science to using AAS. the whole reason why most fake natties don’t reveal their fake status is because in the eyes of John Q public, you just inject and get shredded. not so. takes a lot of hard work and dedication — steroids just allow you to work even harder.
and the cure for the dad bod isn’t AAS. some AAS make it easier for your body to burn fat, but that comes down to your diet.
or amphetamines…ECA stack mainly, adderall, etc. thats why even natty bodybduilers aren’t ‘natty natty’ because the shredded ones 100% got there with some kind of speed.
some people get crazy and do DNP. (ECA stack + a DNP pill per day would probably go a long way toward curing obesity)
some really dedicated people do lots of HGH. but ultimately you still have to control your diet, all the things i mentioned you can still outeat very easily.
(3) once you put in the work and know what you’re doing…it’s pretty easy to maintain. the first year or two are hardcore, and then cruise control from there. unless you’re trying to be some kind of national competitor.
and i def do not like the female enhanced look…
Swank,
Well said. Co-signed.
Have you ever done ECA stack? I’ve never done it (nor advised anyone to do so). I’ve read that the aspirin isn’t too good so most people do an EC stack. What is your experience with ECA if you’ve done it before? I’d like to drop a few pounds quick (I always stay within range) and I’m aware that your metabolism can rev up to burn about 200 kcal a day extra.
if you’re doing it for the extra kcal burn, don’t do it.
ECA is fine, but it’s mostly for (a) the appetite suppressant effect and (b) the effect it has on manipulating water in your body and allowing you to hold weight while cutting.
i have a script for adderall, and it’s just…way better than EC for both purposes.
if you’re looking for a metabolism boost just do it right and get DNP. 200mg = 20% increase in metabolic rate. 400mg = 40% increase.
I have only done one cycle of it. and…umm…well, it works. you will get shredded very fast. and it will be the worst two weeks of your life. i remember sweating buckets just going up a single flight of stairs — i’m not exaggerating. but literally, you will drop a pound of PURE FAT a day (extremely anti-catabolic). if you combine it with ephedrine to control your cravings (and you will have them — ungodly carb cravings)….you’ll be beach ready in no time flat.
but carefully research. it’s not an idiot proof drug. if you OD — and most people in the BB world are stupid and reckless — there’s no coming back. if you go to the ER and you have too much in your system…you die.
so having said that. i’ll never do it again. ha, but it scared me straight so i’ve never really gotten that far away from ripped/shredded territory since then.
Also an aside: to cure obesity (it is a disease, contrary to popular belief) we must change our environment and dietary habits. It won’t be cured by using ECA stacks and DNP.
We also must rid ourselves—as a society—of the false notion that what determines weight gain is calories in/calories out.
It won’t be cured by using ECA stacks and DNP.
idk there’s a patent out on DNP weight loss treatment.
you don’t build up a tolerance to DNP and there’s no feedback loop to it. so you could just put the populous on it forever and have it lose weight.
We also must rid ourselves—as a society—of the false notion that what determines weight gain is calories in/calories out.
but that’s the truth afaik. other things that seem to mess with the calories in/calories out rule are just long-hand ways of saying calories in/calories out.
for example…
the degree to which food is processed alters the thermic affect of the food and thus its caloric content, which is why ‘clean’ eating of the same calories will likely result in less weight gain than ‘dirty’ eating — cleaner foods tend to be harder for the body to break down and slower to digest.
and it’s true, hormones have an effect, but that’s mostly on nutrient partitioning and altering the ratio of weight gain or loss as fat or muscle. without AAS though, the differences are pretty slight.
PP:
“We still haven’t mastered it. The Tasmanian aboriginals had no idea how to make fire.”
That is probably not true. There is evidence that they did, and that the idea that they did not seems likely to have been an error.
“Tasmanian Aborigines–making fire” By Shayne Breen
http://www.academia.edu/1231179/Tasmanian_Aborigines_making_fire
(though they seem to have, due to their particular environment and isolation, lost the knowledge of certain other things their ancestors had known how to do, like travel certain distances by boat across water; like the distance from the Australian mainland that their ancestors had crossed to reach Tasmania—as well as much fishing, which they at some point had largely ceased to do also And they retained only the knowledge of making small boats and the ability to travel to islands off/more near to Tasmanian like those of the Cape Barren group, on which some tribes made seasonal hunting camps. Ands it is true that some things can be lost—though modern people generally, in the developed world, rarely-almost never need make fire from scratch at all, so your example concerning the director of the Quest for Fire may on be quite applicable here—though sometimes in primitive tribes incl. seemingly among Tasmanian Aborigines, some individuals, of certain status, may perhaps have been more likely to have the skill than others.)
“…though sometimes in primitive tribes incl. seemingly among Tasmanian Aborigines, some individuals, of certain status, may perhaps have been more likely to have the skill than others—like possibly adult or “initiated” men in the Tasmanian case.)”
I don’t know, even reputable sources like Christopher Stringer claimed Tasmanians lost the ability to make fire, and according to this source, humans in general could not make fire until LONG after we left Africa:
According to Sandgathe and his colleagues, hominids didn’t really master fire until around 12,000 years ago
Once the skill was learned, it must have spread around the world like wild fire 🙂
The point is there’s no scientific consensus on when fire was mastered. Estimates range from 1.8 million years ago to 12,000 years ago.
There’s recent evidence from last year that shows maybe around 1.5 mya fire was mastered. I think Melo knows more on this.
Rudyard Kipling would be proud of that research 🙂
Oh you… There’s a difference between just so stories and hypotheses that can be independently verified. =^)
I also hope you know I’m skeptical of the endurance running hypothesis as well.
The thing with fire is we have anatomic and biological evidence. Sure it may be a byproduct (of what?) and biases may lead to one to assume that it’s an adaptation due to X, but there are ways to reverse engineer (in a completely different way from evolutionary psychologists) to infer how a trait became adaptive. The thing with EP, though, is that they do it in a completely different way compared to evolutionary biology.
EP is speculation disguised as results.
I’ll discuss this more later.
PP:
Chris Stringer is not an expert on Tasmania/Australia/Oceania (nor an anthropologist of comtemporary/recent cultures), and as the source I cited explains, the impression that Tasmanians could not make fire is likely founded on the misunderstandings of a few early sources taken as credible (and unquestioned, and assumed true by many, including some scholars—especially non specialists—, until recent times)—have you read the link?
” and according to this source, humans in general could not make fire until LONG after we left Africa:”
“…According to Sandgathe and his colleagues, hominids didn’t really master fire until around 12,000 years ago
This seems very unlikely (for the reasons given by other scientists quoted in th source you cite, among other reasons) Humans had been fully behaviorally (and of course anatomically) modern, all over the world, long—very long—before the mesolithic era of ca 10-12ka BC. And in addition (by and large) no-few major technological changes (nothing radical) occurred during that period which had not been present in the preceding paleolithic (that is if we are speaking of hunter gatherers—which I believe are who are being discussed—, and not including the few places on earth where early agriculture was beginning, in the mid-late mesolithic).
Many other scientists do not agree with Sandgathe.
“Roebroeks and Villa think Sandgathe’s reasoning is flawed: After all, there isn’t evidence of fire at every modern human campsite, either, when you look at sites from the Upper Paleolithic period, which concluded about 10,000 years ago. “However, nobody would argue that Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were not habitual users of fire,” they wrote in a response to Sandgathe et al.’s criticism of their work. Wrangham, meanwhile, thinks both Sandgathe et al. and Roebroeks et al. ignore some critical nonarchaeological evidence: his point that contemporary humans can’t survive on a diet of uncooked food. Accepting Sandgathe’s hypothesis, Wrangham wrote in an email, “means that the contemporary evidence is wrong, or that humans have adapted to need cooked food only in the last 12,000 years. Both suggestions are very challenging!”
Modern humans at Pinnacle Point South Africa (beginning around 164,000 bc up to around 70,000 bc) regularly used fire to precisely heat treat their silicate tools (to make them more flakeable)—to artificially acquire a texture similar to that of obsidian)—Its regular use (for staple, necessary and ubiquitous hunting tools) would require the ability to make it.
the exact time is uncertain, and I’m not sure whether fire was mastered as early as 1.8 million years ago (though we know it was used/exploited then, perhaps mastery by erectus is questionable, but we still don’s know), but its seems more likely that such occurred (or evolved gradually up to) at least sometime in the early history of sapiens, or earlier among heidelbergensis (the apparent absence of fires at some neanderthal campsites could, at least partly, be explained by the fact that, as Wrangham mentions, evidence of fires and campsites does not always preserve).
It may also be that in some early groups, (neanderthal, heidelbergensis, and/or early sapiens) the knowledge of full fire mastery sometimes was held by or restricted to certain people/members of tribes (or more widely distributed among the members/more common in certain tribes—within a region—than others), as possibly in the Tasmanian case (with “initiated men”).
Jm8, it’s all very speculative, but I think the 12,000 figure is plausible for a several reasons:
1) making fire is a very tedious and non-obvious process. Who’s going to voluntarily create that much friction for that long unless they know they’re making fire, and how would they know until they do it? Such unlikely behavior would take a long time to discover.
2) humans apparently did not know how to grow plants until around 10 kya, and that seems much simpler than making fire
3) If there’s any truth to claims that cold winters selected for intelligence, it makes sense that we would have become smart enough to make fire after going through the last glacial maximum
4) Human races differ markedly in prognathism, suggesting cooked meat was not universally eaten until very recently
5) Humans started domesticating wolves around 12000 years ago. It makes sense that this would occur around the time we mastered fire, because folks sitting around the camp fire might throw cooked meat and friendly wolves. It would have been very dangerous to interact with wolves prior to having fire to defend ourselves.
6) Cochran argues that from a genetic perspective, evolution speeded up a hundred fold in just the last 10,000 years. This might explain how we could have only recently lost the ability to survive on raw meat just like there’ve been other recent digestive changes like lactose tolerance.
7) A recent emergence of fire might also help explain why agriculture only recently emerged, since with fire, we’d have the safety to build settled communities, instead of having to leave every time a dangerous animal approached
The statement that fires do not always preserve that I was referring to is (apparently perhaps not by Wrangham):
“What’s more, even when people were creating fires, the evidence of said fires doesn’t always stay put. Ashes have a tendency to blow away instead of embedding themselves neatly in the archaeological record, while water can take evidence of fire from its original location and carry it someplace completely different.”
Edit:
“Modern humans at Pinnacle Point South Africa…Its regular/frequent use (for staple, necessary and ubiquitous hunting tools, whenever needed) would very likely require the ability to make it.”
Estimates range from 1.8 million years ago to 12,000 years ago.
pumpkin gets his scientific research from slate….
And swank thinks the attractiveness of height can be judged from photos of men standing alone or from promiscuity rates 🙂
and data reflecting thousands of actual pairings. and the statistical back-of-the-envelope i did to show that if height didn’t matter at all, we’d expect 10% of couples where the man was the same height or shorter, whereas in reality it’s about 7.5% — not much of a difference at all, considering how widespread the cultural norm is.
don’t forget that. you keep forgetting that.
one day you will realize that when it comes to real life…i am correct 100% of the time — no matter how against intuition it may seem.
Some women will tolerate a shorter man because they’re not so perfect themselves or cause the man has other assets. Doesn’t mean it’s their preference.
You see guys dating fat women too; doesn’t mean they don’t prefer slim
Some women will tolerate a shorter man because they’re not so perfect themselves or cause the man has other assets. Doesn’t mean it’s their preference.
i never argued it was their preference.
i just said it doesn’t matter that much, which was supported by the data even more than i thought.
and if we’re talking about the strength of preferences…good looks first, muscularity second, leanness third, height fourth.
afro was shocked about a 5’3 man getting with a 5’10 woman, but he probably based his shock on rarity. even if height didn’t matter at all, such a height differential in a coupling would be extraordinarily rare. the SD of the mean difference was 3.11, and the mean was 5…so shit, what is that? like -7? so 11/3.11…-3.53SD = .021%-tile!
not only that, but here’s another thing that may blow your mind…
assuming the personalities and other factors between the men are the same…
while a tall muscular handsome guy will probably attract, theoretically, the most women….he will not get the most women.
the tall average faced muscular guy, a tall average bodied normal guy, a short muscular handsome guy will all probably do better in terms of real world honest results.
why?
because women have yuuuuuge egos!
attainability is a factor.
so the ‘dings’ against the other men will work to their advantage in real world pairings.
women have to believe in the possibility of something substantial.
TV is not reality, folks.
PP:
“1) making fire is a very tedious and non-obvious process. Who’s going to voluntarily create that much friction for that long unless they know they’re making fire, and how would they know until they do it? Such unlikely behavior would take a long time to discover.”
From 1.8 million years ago (to the time of early sapiens, or even late heidelbergensis) is already quite a long time for the knowledge of fire management/mastery to gradually develop (beginning with exploitation, and developing into fire-making). Fire was a useful and desirable tool for early humans (in the earlier management stage/stages) before full mastery of it (and was managed/exploited, apparently by erectus, long before its full mastery), and the skills necessary to use and maintain it likely developed gradually, because of its usefulness/importance there would have been an interest in (an effort and incentive) in developing skills related to fire from the beginning of its use.
As explained below:
“Because wildfires occurred sporadically, the next step in humanity’s relationship with fire would be to learn how to preserve it. Fires could be sustained by professional “fire preservers” using slow-burning animal dung. In such a way, a primitive division of labor may have emerged.”
https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/07/23/how-and-when-did-humans-discover-fire
Also, less tedious and complex methods exist for making fire than the friction method (such as the, less tedious and simpler and more straightforward, method of striking certain types of stone—e.g. flint—to produce a spark, which may have been used by the Tasmanian Aborigines—as mentioned in my link, and certain other tribal peoples).
In addition, friction is not always as complex as one might think (and one should remember that many millennia of gradually increasingly complex and skilled fire management had preceded/led up to the period when humans discovered achieved artificial ignition/full fire mastery.
“The question of ignition is an important one [127,137], but perhaps less crucial to effective fire use than often assumed. If hominins could not ignite fire, however, they would need to be able to maintain it robustly, and hence probably be reliant on a strong social network allowing its replacement [138]. They would need good knowledge of slow-burning materials, although field studies show that animal dung is useful in this respect. Ignition is often assumed to have required a cognitive advance. Yet the simplest kindling technique of rubbing a stick in a groove in a wooden ‘hearth’ requires no more than power and basic skill. It does not seem a more complex process than hafting, which it closely resembles in that two component parts require understanding and use of an intermediary: fixative in the one, and tinder in the other…”
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/371/1696/20150164
It does not seem very plausible that Paleolithic Europeans (for instance), who produced complex and refined works of art (painting, figurative bone carving) and used complex hunting techniques, or paleolithic LSA and MSA Africans (who, like early Europeans/Eurasians, also hunted with complex compound projectiles such as bone harpoons, bows, etc, and poisons—in addition to having art and engaging in the long-distance trade of objects such as minerals, among other behaviors) would have been unable to make fire.
“4) Human races differ markedly in prognathism, suggesting cooked meat was not universally eaten until very recently”
“6) Cochran argues that from a genetic perspective, evolution speeded up a hundred fold in just the last 10,000 years. This might explain how we could have only recently lost the ability to survive on raw meat just like there’ve been other recent digestive changes like lactose tolerance.”
As mentioned, modern humans can’t survive on a diet of uncooked food. Cooking is biologically necessary. This is not less true of certain races. Differences in prognathism between races (and in other regions, in decreasing prognathism in the same region among local modern humans) is largely attributed to dietary changes occurring after agriculture, when softer cultivated starchy foods were more often eaten (and the intra-sapiens differences in prognathism are much less than those between sapiens and earlier hominids like neanderthals or heidelbergensis)—though this may not be the only factor; Khoisan Bushmen are often quite prognathous and mesognathous (and mesognathy is also common among the Andamanese, who are not especially prognathous relatively speaking, whereas Papuans and Australian Aborigines are generally quite prognathous by sapiens standards).
The dependence on cooked food seems to be a more major change than the ability to digest lactose (which involves the extension into adulthood of a childhood ability), whereas the former (cooked-food dependency) is a dependency (the loss of an ability) which (unlike lactase persistence, which became widespread only in a modestly sized area of the world and even there unevenly) is universally and consistently established in our species, and is more likely to have been present among the common ancestors of current modern humans.
The increase in brain size and prognathism (though these things do vary somewhat between modern human races) that is though to be correlated with the increase in cooked food-dependancy happened most markedly (the largest parts of the increase that is) in periods before the divergence of sapiens and in the earlier period of said divergence).
“5) Humans started domesticating wolves around 12000 years ago. It makes sense that this would occur around the time we mastered fire, because folks sitting around the camp fire might throw cooked meat and friendly wolves. It would have been very dangerous to interact with wolves prior to having fire to defend ourselves.
Cooking and hearths are evident long before the mesolithic.
There is evidence that the making of fire was known among peoples isolated since the paleolithic (such as mainland Australian Aborigines—in their case certainly, Andamanese, and in fact Tasmanian Aborigines)
Fire was (not only used for cooking by them and a wide range of early sapiens groups), but was regularly depended upon by MSA humans at Pinnacle Point S. Africa to make tools (upon which they regularly depended).
Also mentioned, regarding the apparent relative lack or neanderthal fires during cold seasons:
“Others doubt that Neanderthals’ fire usage really died away. “I’m pretty sure they knew how to make it,” says Hlubik. Another explanation for Sandgathe and Dibble’s findings, she speculates, is that Neanderthals might have had to rely on animal dung, instead of wood, for fuel during cold and relatively treeless periods. Perhaps they wanted to keep the stinky fumes of fires for cooking or toolmaking away from their home caves, and so they lit those fires farther afield—where the evidence more easily washed away, or hasn’t yet been found.”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quest-for-clues-to-humanitys-first-fires/
“the, less tedious and simpler and more straightforward, method of striking certain types of stone (two rocks together)—e.g. flint—to produce a spark…”
meant to write:
“The increase in brain size and decrease in prognathism (though these things do vary somewhat between modern human races) that is though to be correlated most with the increase in cooked food-dependancy happened most markedly (i.e the largest parts of the increase in brain size/decrease in prognathism that is) in periods before the divergence of sapiens and in the earlier period…”
Also, a relatively simple method of fire producing like the rock-percussion method, would likely especially have not been much of an imaginative leap at all for an additional reason; there may have already been a general association for early humans (such as late erectus or heidelbergensis) between rocks and fire even in the early fire management phases before full mastery, since stones would have been widely used to construct hearths and confine fire.
“Yet the simplest kindling technique of rubbing a stick in a groove in a wooden ‘hearth’ requires no more than power and basic skill. It does not seem a more complex process than hafting, which it closely resembles in that two component parts require understanding and use of an intermediary: fixative in the one, and tinder in the other…”
In reference to the above (cited from the study I linked), hafting (for spear points) first appears among African heidelbergensis around 700ka bc.
re: fixatives: adhesives (some made from fire-treated materials, others likely made in other ways without heat) were also used later by sapiens to haft spears, darts and arrow points by sapiens in MSA and LSA Africa and Paleolithic Eurasia. Neanderthals also used fire to make adhesives from sap (in at least one instance)—(though it may be hard to know how regular or consistent these uses of heating adhesives were)
How short are you Swank?
Correction: hafting dates to by about 500ka bc (by African heidelbergensis)—as far as we currently know—, not 700ka.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/338/6109/942
https://whyfiles.org/2012/making-spears/index.html
a hair under 5’9. so average short.
Swank just missed the height cutoff to donate to many sperm banks:
Upper class women DO NOT want Swank’s babies.
oh wait…12/3.11 —> -3.85 –> 0.0059%-tile!
about as rare as a 160 IQ 😀
afro was shocked about a 5’3 man getting with a 5’10 woman, but he probably based his shock on rarity. even if height didn’t matter at all, such a height differential in a coupling would be extraordinarily rare. the SD of the mean difference was 3.11, and the mean was 5…so shit, what is that? like -7? so 11/3.11…-3.53SD = .021%-tile!
Your opinion is that women usually date taller men because men are usually taller but not because they have a strong preference for taller men. I disagree. Height is unattractive when someone is lanky and doesn’t look comfortable with their body. That’s why your studies don’t find height so advantageous and state that a strong mesomorphic body is more attractive, but such a body is harder to achieve when you’re tall. So most guys above 6’3″ don’t have an advantage over guys between 5’10” and 6’2″ which is the range where you can easily pack muscles while being significantly taller than most women. But below 5’10”, you’re at a clear disadvantage with tall women and it’s a huge handicap if you’re shorter than you’re country’s average female height.
a hair under 5’9. so average short.
You aren’t short, swank. You’re comfortably taller than the average woman, you’re only a bit too short for tall women.
Just to put climate/human evolution in perspective. Homo erectus is the most successful species of the homo genus. It survived both colder and warmer phases than today, multiple times. So did Neanderthal. Whereas humans have survived two ice ages without this resulting in noticeable behavioral shifts.
Your opinion is that women usually date taller men because men are usually taller but not because they have a strong preference for taller men.
no, I think that women have a preference for taller men. i just don’t think it’s that big of a preference and it’s only significant when the man is shorter than the woman.
That’s why your studies don’t find height so advantageous and state that a strong mesomorphic body is more attractive, but such a body is harder to achieve when you’re tall
ive discussed this already. the primary reason more height is attractive is because it allows for that body to be built…but most men aren’t going to be building that body.
but no, the studies i discussed had men/models of all different heights and builds at various heights.
the main effect was for muscles. that was the main differentiation in ratings of attractiveness.
You aren’t short, swank. You’re comfortably taller than the average woman, you’re only a bit too short for tall women.
you’re thinking too much like a man.
to a woman i am short.
women don’t think relative to the average. they think relative to their ideal.
further, my career and income means that my social circles are primarily composed of men > 6′.
kind of like how napoleon wasn’t short relative to the average but definitely was short relative to the company he kept.
But below 5’10”, you’re at a clear disadvantage with tall women and it’s a huge handicap if you’re shorter than you’re country’s average female height.
this is intuitive, but wrong.
below 5’10 you’re actually at more of a disadvantage with shorter women. taller women have less of a dating pool to begin with so are more or less ‘forced’ to be more open-minded.
and it’s a huge handicap if you’re shorter than you’re country’s average female height.
i don’t have enough data points to make a pronouncement…how many guys are out there who are < 5'4? not many.
i will say that the rule about muscles and good looks seems to hold true, in that i have never seen a man, tall or short, who was muscular, lean, and good-looking fail to attract outsize attention from attractive members of the opposite sex.
“Swank just missed the height cutoff to donate to many sperm banks:”
Hmm I had no idea they had one (I guess I don’t make the cut either—I would never have considered it anyway. I’m only about 5ft7-8, and I come from a fairly short family)
I would have thought things like intelligence/accomplishment and health would be more important. Could it be that so many women really don’t want short genes for their offspring.
no pumpkin…
spinsters who couldn’t get any the normal way don’t want my sperm…and really, it’s more like i (or any other man) didn’t want to give them mine 🙂
i mean, if you guys are this bent over an innocuous thing like height…
what will you think of the fact that the most attractive thing of all is Arete…
so powerful is it that it causes others to simply view whatever you are physically as attractive.
Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac
Damn swank. I’m only 5 10 but 5 9 seemslike a big difference to me. I only date women less than 5 3.
no, I think that women have a preference for taller men. i just don’t think it’s that big of a preference and it’s only significant when the man is shorter than the woman.
Alright, I don’t disagree much but you make it sound even less important than that when you argue that height is only preferred when it comes with more muscle mass. I disagree with that, height is preferred even after controlling for body shape and size.
ive discussed this already. the primary reason more height is attractive is because it allows for that body to be built…but most men aren’t going to be building that body.
I see the opposite at the gym every time. Muscle mass is more visible on shorter dudes especially when they’re black from the robust groups of central and western Africa. My 215 lbs just make look big, they’d look huge on you.
you’re thinking too much like a man.
to a woman i am short.
women don’t think relative to the average. they think relative to their ideal.
Women see that you’re not tall, but you’re taller than most of them and you have other assets, so your height is not an issue.
below 5’10 you’re actually at more of a disadvantage with shorter women. taller women have less of a dating pool to begin with so are more or less ‘forced’ to be more open-minded.
I know petite women are often into huge dudes, but tall women are in high demand. Why do you think women wear high heels? Because height is attractive in women too, though not as much as it is in men. Me and most of the tall guys I know are into tall chicks, I’m personally not fond of women below 5’6″. My girl is taller than you, she’s into tall guys but she wouldn’t find you shockingly short, you’d just need more assets to compensate for this inadequacy. she definitely wouldn’t apply laxer standards because she’s tall.
i don’t have enough data points to make a pronouncement…how many guys are out there who are < 5'4? not many.
Yes but they exist and they probably don’t get as much sex as a taller version of themselves would.
i will say that the rule about muscles and good looks seems to hold true, in that i have never seen a man, tall or short, who was muscular, lean, and good-looking fail to attract outsize attention from attractive members of the opposite sex.
Meh… You know that muscularity isn’t always that obvious and many women don’t like it too much when a guy dresses like the dudes in Jersey Shore.
An additional and even more straightforward likely cause of/contributor to the association of fire and percussion/stone percussion among early humans (as used in the percussion method of fire making), would be the sound of striking rocks and other hard objects, which would have been, in many cases, reminiscent of the cracking sounds produced by lightening/thunder esp. when impacting hard objects (lightening being one the most common natural sources of fire used by hominids/early man).
the independent effect is just…weak at best.
the studies bear that out — 70-80% variance explained by muscularity vs 5-6% explained by height. that’s a huge difference…YUGE.
My 215 lbs just make look big, they’d look huge on you.
consistent with what ive said. ‘the body’ is more about proportion than weight. to gain the same proportions as a smaller guy you’d need much more muscle. and that extra muscle would itself contribute more to your attractiveness, and the ability to have that extra muscle would be mediated by height.
and nah…
men don’t like tall women because men don’t like dating women who are taller than they. and the taller the woman, the more likely that is to be true.
of course, i think it’s a shame and that they’re missing out, but that’s just me.
most people box themselves in with rules that way 🙂
she definitely wouldn’t apply laxer standards because she’s tall.
“For every cm increase in female height, we showed that partner height on average increased with 0.19 cm (see above), which equals to a decrease of 0.81 cm in partner height differences.”
“Lastly, in line with preferences for partner height differences, we found that shorter women and taller men were more likely to have greater partner height differences, whereas shorter men and taller women were more likely to have smaller partner height differences.”
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0054186
so maybe your girl is the exception but the rule is what i say.
Yes but they exist and they probably don’t get as much sex as a taller version of themselves would.
sure, i agree. i just don’t think it’d be that much different.
a short guy complaining he can’t get laid because of his height is like an hbder complaining about being a loser because of NAM affirmative action.
Meh… You know that muscularity isn’t always that obvious and many women don’t like it too much when a guy dresses like the dudes in Jersey Shore.
Shoulder waist ratio and arm size are pretty much always obvious.
and RR makes my point!
i will say RR that you don’t know what you’re missing.
it’s also possible that France is different than the US.
people in the US are very, very, very, very conformist and wedded to what they are told to like and what can and cannot be a man.
while some people think this is terrible…
i think it’s great.
it’s very easy to have whatever love life you want. the rules are simple.
the fictional character who most represents the American Dream?
the independent effect is just…weak at best.
the studies bear that out — 70-80% variance explained by muscularity vs 5-6% explained by height. that’s a huge difference…YUGE.
I won’t go quote mining for contradictory studies but that sounds counter-intuitive.
consistent with what ive said. ‘the body’ is more about proportion than weight. to gain the same proportions as a smaller guy you’d need much more muscle.
No, you need less absolute muscle mass to look buff when you’re short.
and nah…
men don’t like tall women because men don’t like dating women who are taller than they. and the taller the woman, the more likely that is to be true.
It’s more like they feel like they don’t measure up to a tall woman, not that they find them unattractive as if height was un-feminine. Tall women between 5’7″ and 5’11” still have a huge pool of taller men to choose from, I’m not talking about women over 6’3″ these are very rare.
“For every cm increase in female height, we showed that partner height on average increased with 0.19 cm (see above), which equals to a decrease of 0.81 cm in partner height differences.”
“Lastly, in line with preferences for partner height differences, we found that shorter women and taller men were more likely to have greater partner height differences, whereas shorter men and taller women were more likely to have smaller partner height differences.”
That’s what has to be expected when men are on average taller then women and assortative mating for height is just moderate. So the farther from the opposite sex’s average one’s height is, the more likely they are to have a large height difference with their partner.
so maybe your girl is the exception but the rule is what i say.
Nope, my girl is with my 6’2″ ass and she’s always been with taller guys. I’m just saying you aren’t shockingly short for a woman her height, doesn’t mean she has no preference for taller men.
sure, i agree. i just don’t think it’d be that much different.
a short guy complaining he can’t get laid because of his height is like an hbder complaining about being a loser because of NAM affirmative action.
Being a short man isn’t just a disadvantage for dating, it’s inconvenient and many other types of social interaction.
Shoulder waist ratio and arm size are pretty much always obvious.
Yes, they’re obvious, but they can be achieved without being shredded like a beast. Many guys have big arms and broad shoulders, they look strong in a long sleeves shirt but they have no definition at all.
it’s also possible that France is different than the US.
people in the US are very, very, very, very conformist and wedded to what they are told to like and what can and cannot be a man.
It’s the same in France, the culture here is Latin, the traditional gender roles are very valued, people like to stick to the norms. We tend to believe Anglo-Saxons are more anti-conformist, mostly because all rebellious subcultures and social movements have come here from the Anglosphere and we often say that social values always lag 10 years behind that of the US. Granted, when people say that, they refer to the social values of New York City and California, not Mississippi.
“…decreasing prognathism in the same region among local modern humans) is largely attributed to dietary changes occurring after agriculture, when softer cultivated starchy foods were more often eaten (and the intra-sapiens differences in prognathism are much less than those between sapiens and earlier hominids like neanderthals or heidelbergensis)—though this may not be the only factor; Khoisan Bushmen are often quite prognathous and mesognathous…”
In the above, I meant to write that Khoisan Bushmen are often quite orognathous/flatter faced and mesognathous—and not really so prognathous on average (not “quite prognathous” as I mistakenly wrote above—or the cause of the error may have been autocorrect, as also sometimes happens, I’m not sure)
So by that logic you must agree that Africans had agriculture much later than Eurasians (on average)
The notion that humans only learned to make fire 12 kya is admittedly very controversial but the fact that even pre-agriculture modern humans were much less prognathous than neanderhals does suggest it wasn’t mastered until long after the two species split
PP:
“So by that logic you must agree that Africans had agriculture much later than Eurasians (on average)”
I said it was not the only factor. Khoisans are not very prognathous and they never had agriculture.
It would depend on which Africans and which Eurasians.
West Africans (or some West African regions like much of the Western Sahel/Savannah) likely had agriculture (and separately/independently) before much of Eurasia (but not before the Eastern Mediterranean/The Near East/West Asia, Central America, the area around China, or Papua; which all also had their own early separate, in some case earlier, domestications). Northern Europeans (and North American Indians—those that had it at all, as some never did) had it quite a lot later.
Central Africans Pygmies, those with Pygmy admixture, as well as those with larger amounts of “paleonegrid” ancestry (native to parts of the southern near-Central African forest region of W. Africa) do seem to be a bit more prognathous especially than West African Sudanid types from the sahel/savannah who had agriculture longer, and also more so than Nilotics.
Also some groups of East Asians (not so much North East Asians like the North Chinese and Koreans, who are less prognathous, but) like South East Asians well as the Southern Chinese, are generally a bit more prognathous than Europeans/Caucasians despite having agriculture earlier.
The nature and character, and texture (and species) of the cultivated food eaten, and how much the population depends on it (compared to how much hunted/foraged food is supplemented) may figure in as well)
But It seems that agriculture is also (perhaps even a bit more so) associated with a reduction in the other kind of prognathism; that of the lower jaw (mandibular), as opposed to the sub nasal/upper jaw kind (alveolar/maxillary—which I have referenced until now), and the former (mandibular) is not so common in most groups of modern Africans (though it was more common in those that lived before or at the beginning of agriculture, like the mesolithic and early neolithic peoples of Southern Nubia/Central Sudan).
Hunter gatherersd today still tend to have higher degrees of mandibular prognathism (including longer and narrower mandibles). Some of this (perhaps most) is certainly genetic, and some contributors may be environmental (mandibular stress from diet).
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/49/19546
“The notion that humans only learned to make fire 12 kya is admittedly very controversial but the fact that even pre-agriculture modern humans were much less prognathous than neanderthals does suggest it wasn’t mastered until long after the two species split”
It might have happened after the species split (but maybe not long after) or it could have happened before (perhaps very shortly before). (It may also be possible that both species mastered it independently soon after the split.)
Prognathism is only one indicator, and there was a massive reduction in that, even before the neanderthal-sapiens split, despite the significant differences between the two species in that trait. And neanderthal brain sizes (despite being a bit smaller than sapiens’ in proportion to body size) had quite large brains compared to other hominids (and not radically smaller than sapiens’)
“…Northern and Central, North East Europeans, Central Asians and Siberians (and North American Indians and some South American Indians—those that had agriculture at all, as some never did) had it quite a lot later.”
There is no geographic pattern of prognathism. Seems like it varies randomly between populations.
There’s also the example of Papuans, whoa re quite prognathous (as sapiens go that is)—at least in alveolar prognathism, though I’m not sure if they are also high in the mandibular kind, perhaps not so much—despite the fact that they (most regions of Papua that is) have had agriculture for a very long time.
AfroSapiens:
Yes, interesting. From the chart it seems that generally the levels of prognathism in the West African group and Kenyans (and South African Bantu—I’m assuming they’re Bantu and not Khoisan) are close to South East Asians (higher in W. Africa and Kenya than in S.E. Asia—yet higher in Tanzania—. But about the same or lower in Africans overall than in Amerindians; lower than in some groups of North American Natives and about the same as in Central and Southern American Natives overall, and it is quite low in Somalis—but there is significant variation in all of those major groups as well and within the other broad geographic groups, and even with in regional subsets of those groups, it does not necessarily correlate or correlate well to geographic/macro group).it is mostly high in most Oceanians (including Papuans), but low in Negritos, The pattern does seem much more scattered/closer to random and less (less neatly so) predicted by macro-race/continental group (though there seem to be some broad somewhat “messier” correlations) than it is often made out (or than I had suspected).
According to this source, it seems to fit Rushton’s ranking quite nicely: Negroid > Caucasoid > Mongoloid:
This study compares facial characteristics of 112 ancient, medieval and modern populations from around the world. The basic finding is that prognathism (jaw protrusion) is associated with Austro-Melanesians and sub-Saharan Africans, and facial flatness with East Asians, while Europeans, West Asians and North Africans (Caucasoids) generally lack both of these features.
Nope, the charts from this study show nothing neat at all.
Alveolar prognathism:

overall lower jaw variation:

http://www.femininebeauty.info/ethnic-comparisons/facial-flatness
Either way. Rushton is a hack, millions of years of hominid presence in Northern Eurasia have never caused cognitive evolution. Intelligence has always evolved in Africa and the last 50,000 years wouldn’t have changed that.
Nope, the charts from this study show nothing neat at all.
When correlations are small, charts can look messy. Doesn’t mean correlations aren’t there.
Either way. Rushton is a hack, millions of years of hominid presence in Northern Eurasia have never caused cognitive evolution. Intelligence has always evolved in Africa and the last 50,000 years wouldn’t have changed that
That’s cause Africa has always had the biggest population. More population = more genetic mutations = faster evolution. The last 50,000 years has changed that.
That’s cause Africa has always had the biggest population. More population = more genetic mutations = faster evolution. The last 50,000 years has changed that.
Not true, at first, anthropologists thought East Asia was where men evolved because that’s where most homo erectus fossils were found.
Moreover, the Eurasian population during the last 50,000 years wasn’t large enough to prevent the accumulation of deleterious mutations. So if a next species of smarter hominids emerges from mutations and selection, it’s still more likely to come from Africa than anywhere else in the world.
Not true, at first, anthropologists thought East Asia was where men evolved because that’s where most homo erectus fossils were found.
Bones don’t preserve as well in Africa, but there were FAR more proto-humans walking around Africa than outside Africa, and there were many different KINDS of proto-humans walking around Africa, and they would all interbreed creating new and better genetic combinations. However once humans became behaviorally modern enough to live outside Africa in large numbers, non-African evolution speeded up because for the first time it had some genetic diversity to select from.
No, there’s no evidence for fabulous evolution accompanying expansion out of Africa. The only major genetic events were bottlenecks causing genetic load and archaic introgression.
counter-intuitive, but correct.
No, you need less absolute muscle mass to look buff when you’re short.
…yes, that’s exactly what i said….
the degree of muscularity one has is tied to proportions.
so shorter person = less absolute muscle mass to reach same proportions.
taller person = more absolute muscle mass for the same proportions.
a huge part of what makes the taller person more attractive at the same level of proportion is that difference in absolute muscle mass….and that difference is mediated by height, but it’s really the extra muscle mass that is adding to the attraction, which is also consistent with the studies…
It’s more like they feel like they don’t measure up to a tall woman, not that they find them unattractive as if height was un-feminine
lol femme propaganda.
men don’t like taller women because the gender norm = man taller. that’s it. same reason women don’t like shorter men. nothing else there.
Nope, my girl is with my 6’2″ ass and she’s always been with taller guys. I’m just saying you aren’t shockingly short for a woman her height, doesn’t mean she has no preference for taller men.
i didn’t say there wasn’t a preference…it’s just that taller women are pretty much forced to compromise; way more than shorter women are.
if she’s always gotten with taller men and she’s white, then she’s just compromised on race. race is a YUGE compromise. data bears this out too (it’s way worse than being short — as in, being like…5’1 is still better than being non-white, according to data from online dating preferences…granted that’s not a perfectly representative sample and maybe outside the US people are less racist).
Yes, they’re obvious, but they can be achieved without being shredded like a beast. Many guys have big arms and broad shoulders, they look strong in a long sleeves shirt but they have no definition at all.
most guys have shit SWR and shit arms. if ‘many guys’ had what you’re talking about, then the average FFMI wouldn’t be 18-19. it’s not ‘broad shoulders’ alone…it’s broad shoulders AND thin waist/hips in relation. if your arms aren’t at least 10 inches added to your wrist, they aren’t noteworthy.
very few men have the adonis ratio, and fewer still have SHR/SWR > 1.62. it’s rare.
i mean, we can just look at it from an econ standpoint: about 15% of men are 6’0 or greater.
about 1-2% of men have an FFMI of 22 or greater.
qualitative analysis:
why the fuck would Lee Priest do that to himself if it didn’t work?
again afro is commenting later in time but earlier in the thread.
how is this possible peepee?
wordpress app. People love my blog so much they actually go to the trouble of getting the app 🙂
a huge part of what makes the taller person more attractive at the same level of proportion is that difference in absolute muscle mass….
We’ll agree to disagree. I think what makes a taller person more attractive with the same BMI and fat percentage is height.
lol femme propaganda.
men don’t like taller women because the gender norm = man taller. that’s it. same reason women don’t like shorter men. nothing else there.
I said tall women, not taller women. Most tall women are shorter than me so I don’t mind. And I’m sure below average dude like you would be proud walking hand in hand with a tall model chick. You probably see them as unattainable.
i didn’t say there wasn’t a preference…it’s just that taller women are pretty much forced to compromise; way more than shorter women are.
I don’t think so. There are so many advantages being with a tall chick. Long legs are very sexy, they struggle less with their weight, they wear clothes better, they make sexual positions more convenient, you don’t lose them in a crowd, and all your relatives are like “look at this amazing gazelle!”.
if she’s always gotten with taller men and she’s white, then she’s just compromised on race.
She’s Moroccan Jewish, she’s not into white guys, the guys she dated before me were Italian, Lebanese, Moroccan but I’m the black guy she’s been waiting forever.
race is a YUGE compromise. data bears this out too (it’s way worse than being short — as in, being like…5’1 is still better than being non-white, according to data from online dating preferences…granted that’s not a perfectly representative sample and maybe outside the US people are less racist).
Nah, I’d definitely paint myself a couple of shades darker than lose a couple of inches. Online dating is very specific because it probably doesn’t recruit the best-looking a best socially adjusted members of each race and it can feel unsafe to meet online strangers IRL.
But when you walk into a club or a bar, you’re tall, black, fit and looking good, it’s all eyes on you. My friends were always telling me I had a huge head start from being outstanding when we were chasing on nights out, and I don’t disagree.
most guys have shit SWR and shit arms. if ‘many guys’ had what you’re talking about, then the average FFMI wouldn’t be 18-19. it’s not ‘broad shoulders’ alone…it’s broad shoulders AND thin waist/hips in relation. if your arms aren’t at least 10 inches added to your wrist, they aren’t noteworthy.
I see many guys who have nice V-shaped frames in their clothes. They’re just mesomorphic, average-sized or a bit overweight and they look just fine. I’d rather be tall and built like this than short and jacked.
depends what you mean by “enhanced”.
i was talking about very popular 40-ish female porn stars like brandi love and kendra lust. they obviously lift weights. so i assume they use some testosterone or ‘roids, just not enough that their voice changes and they grow a dick. women have testosterone too. plus as “the hormone of desire” it makes their “work” easier.
like all those girls who do “cross fit”.
is estrogen anabolic? some women may claim they’re just engaged in “hormone replacement” after menopause.
check this out swank.
prof shoe has claimed many genes of small effect explain the height difference between n europe and s europe.
but this difference is tiny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_human_height_worldwide
afaict it’s always < 3".
As RR loves to parrot, and as any respectable scientist knows, Phenotypic adaption, does not require millions of years to acquire distributional stasis.
It’s not an extraordinary claim to suggest intelligence has increased or decreased since 50,000 years ago. Or even modern times, and the literature does support this.
Giving Gould’s viewpoints a more fair viewing (other than that short blip on page 1 of Ten Thousand Year Explosion):
“The most impressive contrast between natural evolution and cultural evolution lies embedded in the major fact of our history. We have no evidence that the modal form of human bodies or brains has changed at all in the past 100,000 years—a standard phenomenon of stasis for successful and widespread species, and not (as popularly misconceived) an odd exception to an expectation of continuous and progressive change. The Cro-Magnon people who painted the caves of the Lascaux and Altamira some fifteen thousand years ago are us—and one look at the incredible richness and beauty of this work convinces us, in the most immediate and visceral way, that Picasso held no edge in mental sophistication over these ancestors with identical brains. And yet, fifteen thousand years ago no human social grouping had produced anything that would conform with our standard definition of civilization. No society had yet invented agriculture; none had built permanent cities. Everything that we have accomplished in the unmeasurable geological moment of the last ten thousand years—from the origin of agriculture to the Sears building in Chicago, the entire panoply of human civilization for better or for worse—has been built upon the capacities of an unaltered brain. Clearly, cultural change can vastly outstrip the maximal rate of natural Darwinian evolution.” (Gould, 1996: 220)
But human cultural change is an entirely distinct process operating under radically different principals that do allow for the strong possibility of a driven trend for what we may legitimately call “progress” (at least in a technological sense, whether or not the changes ultimately do us any good in a practical or moral way). In this sense, I deeply regret that common usage refers to the history of our artifacts and social organizations as “cultural evolution.” Using the same term—evolution—for both natural and cultural history obfuscates far more than it enlightens. Of course, some aspects of the two phenomena must be similar, for all processes of genealogically constrained historical change must share some features in common. But the differences far outweigh the similarities in this case. Unfortunately, when we speak of “cultural evolution,” we unwittingly imply that this process shares essential similarity with the phenomenon most widely described by the same name—natural, or Darwinian, change. The common designation of “evolution” then leads to one of the most frequent and portentous errors in our analysis of human life and history—the overly reductionist assumption that the Darwinian natural paradigm will fully encompass our social and technological history as well. I do wish that the term “cultural evolution” would drop from use. Why not speak of something more neutral and descriptive—“cultural change,” for example? (Gould, 1996: 219-220)
(The book is Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin)
Summarizing all this bullshit:
(((IDEOLOGY))))
next stuff…
After ”human” sedentarization and big socialization the speed of evolution may reduced but don’t stopped. Even if it was the case, it doesn’t mean in the future will not have changes or even a complete change…
yes, sameness,
”everyone is equal” jewshitism but in ”scientific” mode or narrative.
My thoughts are similar. You have been intellectually challenged not to see the difference between bushmen/pygmies and whites.
I mean, I think the difference between blacks in general and whites/other races is quite significant.
if the brain volume shrinking appeared immediately or can be shown to correlate with certain characteristics of civilization as it developed then the genetic explanation is retarded.
and it is retarded.
how big are brains today vs prior to agriculture in the OECD?
if [name calling against Cochran/Jayman redacted by pp, april 25, 2018] explains this as due to sooper-dooper fast evolution then they lose all credibility.
but they both lost all credibility a long time age.
Mendelian genetics shows you can ‘evolve’ in just a few generations. People have been doing it with wolves/dogs, livestock and horses.
How can you believe this jewish crap?
I doesn’t even make sense when you look at jews and can clearly see cousin marriage has hypertrophied the jewish brain.
Its just sad that the jewish mind is used to argue bullshit in order to make whites less tribal. It has nothing to do with enquiry about the truth, which among themselves they talk about and recognise.
I sincerely believe Gould knows everything I know about race. Hes too smart not to believe the crap he wrote.
to smart to believe#
how big are brains today vs prior to agriculture in the OECD?
I estimate they’re the same, but no one has ever compared skulls of white adults born in the last few decades with adults born in Europe right before agriculture using the same methods (filling skulls with beads).
and if it’s genetic then a warming planet explains it.
so better is to compare contemporary arctic people’s brain volumes with contemporary norwegian brain volumes.
This article just goes to prove what ive said 50 fuckin times and nobody will believe me. Most mainstream academia is a fraud. They are lying. Nobody can be that stupid and believe nothing happened for 50k years.
Its just like the economics department, anthro department, psychology department basically everything outside of non-animate objects is complete bullshit.
The worst one is the philosophy department where they actually changed the subject matter from philosopophical enquiry completely and made it an ersatz branch of legal and linguistic studies.
Just thinking about all this pisses me off.
you’re right. but this is only the case in the english speaking unis.
everything outside of non-animate objects is complete bullshit.
these are what chomsky has dismissively called “ideological subjects”.
he’s right.
but the economic and political reason they exist is to allow stupid people to get degrees.
it’s not a fraud. you just don’t understand its function or how to utilize it.
seeing through the game isn’t winning the game.
and before people talk about how winning the game isn’t worth it….
what if a drunk doctor delivers a baby and the baby is deformed as a result of him being drunk…?
what if a large company steals — in violation of an agreement — someone’s patentable or copyrighted idea?
who’s going to hold them responsible?
who can?
You?
if it’s such bullshit and so easy…
you wouldn’t be sitting with a psychiatrist whining about not being able to meet your social needs.
chomsky is a smart guy.
but how much change has he actually caused with regard to any kind of social justice…the issues he rants and raves about?
zero.
“you wouldn’t be sitting with a psychiatrist whining about not being able to meet your social needs.”
I don’t complain about social needs you fucking clown. Its like everything you say is meant to be the opposite of what is common sense. I think youre saying this crap about women and IQ and that to provoke reactions from people. You’re basically a fuckin troll.
You remind me of this gay guy i used to work with who argued about everything for the sake of proving he was intelligent.
All he was really doing was pleading for respect and getting the exact opposite.
You should learn from his mistakes.
no, you do complain about your social needs, you just don’t understand that what you’re complaining about is actually your social needs not being met. your psychiatrist knows this. homework assignment: why the fuck would you talk with your therapist about politics…at all?
you remind me of someone who didn’t have an opinion worth considering. the flow of value is from me to you, buster. i’m trying to help you. you need it.
”You remind me of this gay guy i used to work with who argued about everything for the sake of proving he was intelligent.”
me*** hein*
“I think youre saying this crap about women and IQ and that to provoke reactions from people. You’re basically a fuckin troll.”
Dude, this is hilarious!!!! coming from you.
Jews must laugh at how stupid most people are. In the same way whites privately laugh at how retarded blacks are in non jew media controlled white countries, jews definitely laugh at how gullible whites in anglo/western european countries are.
For the longest time jews have used the evolution meme to argue the church is irrelevant.
All a sudden evolution stopped happening as soon as we left Africa. Which is why we look completely different to africans.
You must have the credibility of a child to buy the first argument but then reject the second. SO naive.
(((they))) argue that it’s only the genes for appearance which have changed.
this means that a japanese can be closer to an ituri forest pygmy GENETICALLY than he is to the average japanese.
the genes which affect external appearance are a small fraction of all genes. like 3%.
race is like we’re all wearing a costume, but underneath we’re all rich douche bags in Eyes Wide Shut.
“Jews must laugh at how stupid most people are”
On that question I was thinking that people who are anti-non white – migrants are destroyed by the media at the personal level. At the same times, people who hold the opposite view, get a pass on almost everything, like Joy Reid comments on gays (she recognized tenths of it, but there may be hundreds). And all questions about races comparizon or mixture are as tabou.
The only other subject I see wich is as dangerous for the cons and good for the pros is the appreciation of jews. That’s why in France the only people criticizing strongly non white people opinions, except very few far right people, are jews.
Considering it’s quite odd that the international conversations are structured strongly around those two focal points, the possibility that there is a link – either by the people and/or by the content – around those two subjects, ethnic migration in occident and jews standing in occident, as philo argue, is not that small after all. I don’t see any “plot” or “scheme of plants” but it is quite intriguing to see that those subjects get a special place in our societies.
You don’t see a plot because youre autistic.
the proposition: aesthetics don’t lie.
and: a japanese can be closer to an ituri forest pygmy
are not necessarily inconsistent.
aesthetics may not lie but they may not tell the truth about more than a snapshot.
if we’re to assume that ‘good’ aesthetics represent genes that ‘go well’ with a majority of the populous, which is why the majority of the populous covets them…
…then those genes would change from generation to generation. not everyone can mate with these genes that represent some kind of average. instead, everyone who doesn’t have the ‘top 40’ genes has to seek out a mate that occupies a rather complementary genetic niche to their own.
and so as the majority of the populous recombines into a new generation, this hypothetical set of genes that represent the average should shift, and along with it, ‘aesthetics.’
the mona lisa was heralded for the subject’s beauty
let’s be honest…she’s pretty plain by today’s standards.
or Aspasia of Miletus
https://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/55805/story_image/Aspasia.jpg?1383371929
and Aspasia was so ‘hot’ she was a wealthy escort.
At least I see a « link ».
There is another parallel that doesn’t involve Jewish people : white men in pealeolithic in south Europe were 179 cm, 65kg, muscular, gracile, with a big head, and a long life expectancy.
In -4000, after agriculture and pastoralist, they were around 160, fat, small brain and with 20 years less life expectancy .
The recovering process were from 1850 to 1950/1970. The dimorphism among men and women diminished considerably implying a kind of domestication (women were 158 and 56kg in
Paleolithic)
But during those ages, the elite was really close to the original European. See a study called giants and pygmees in England.
So then, at the time people have got their ethnic capital back, mass migration is organized by Kennedy in the USA and Schuman/de Gaule for example in France. So it’s possible that an elite wanted the mass of the people status diminished.
But it’s higly doubtful that the elite from Paleolithic and since WWII were the same ! Jews didn’t even exist at that time (12k before now ).
And about Autism, you have Enoch Powell. He made the strongest anti-migrant speech even in 1968.
I am pretty sure this guy was a typical Asperger : at 3 yo, he used to lecture people about birds killed by his grandfather.
He reached the highest gpa ever in English, Latin and Greek and learned to speak welsh, Urdu and other languages.
I believe Asperger people are as good for social phenomena awareness than for science because they are not blind by inter-personal matter. In many important social phenomena, I am pretty sure we can find some asperger types. Not’only’in Silicon Valley
Its not to say I believe some races are superior to others. Thats not something I believe. But to say humans have basically stagnated in 50k years is ridiculous. If anything much more evolution has happened since, especially in quantitative capabilities, memory and more abstract types of thinking.
You try teaching calculus to a guy 50k years ago and youll find its tough.
i deny the narrative:
there was a cell 2b years ago (or whenever) and from this cell evolved all life as a result of the inherent instability of the “code of life”.
the fossil record is NOT what darwin predicted it would be.
it shows long long long periods of no change, not gradual continuous change.
furthermore that mathematics simply DISPROVES the random mutation followed by selection story.
2b years is not nearly long enough a period of time.
darwinism and neo-darwinism are FALSE.
but i don’t deny the earth is very old.
”the fossil record is NOT what darwin predicted it would be.”
He commited mistakes too, believe on me.
”it shows long long long periods of no change, not gradual continuous change.”
But when changes happens is always GRADUAL: step by step.
gradual = / = slow.
”furthermore that mathematics simply DISPROVES the random mutation followed by selection story.”
random mutation*
The first known single-celled organisms appeared on Earth about 3.5 billion years ago, roughly a billion years after Earth formed. More complex forms of life took longer to evolve, with the first multicellular animals not appearing until about 600 million years ago.
“it shows long long long periods of no change, not gradual continuous change.”
Gould and Eldredge are right.
reminds me…
whenever someone’s theory includes “random” then you know their theory cannot be reality. it can only be a useful approximation.
the only exception might be QM. might. this is still a yuge debate among shoe’s ilk.
God does not play dice with the universe.
Human intelligence evolution has been CONVERGENT but not ”equal”. We may can say that
we are very similar one each other in basal qualitative aspects.
From Samoans to europeans.
But because ”self”-domestication humans been more differentiated via quantitative, aka, IQ et all stuff.
The problem with people like Gould and Klein is that they are very gifted in verbal reasoning which basically gives them an opportunity to call a sheep a cow with semantic arguments and they are psychopathic. They just don’t care about lying to peoples faces.
I think Gould was actually caught falsifying data. I don’t know about Klein or Reich or any other (((geneticist))).
If you can’t reason all this, the best thing to always do with jews is believe the exact opposite of what they’re saying. You will be more right than wrong.
These people don’t believe in ‘scholarly activity’ the way germanics and east asians do. Its basically a shell game for them. They aren’t autistic or anything like that on the spectrum. They don’t walk into these academic institutions whites created and say ‘boy we better carry on the academic tradition of the goyims’.
They don’t believe in any of it. Its just politics. Knowledge exists to be subverted for survival reasons or hidden from people for power. Its a functional way of looking at things.
Look at their media. When was the last time anything on CNN was not a complete joke and vicious lie? They don’t believe in the ‘4th estate’ and that. Its so obvious they think its a tool to dominate, not an information utility.
whenever the argument is very subtle and/or complex, motives should be considered.
i agree with that.
and for any subject matter which has political implications, one should be hyper-vigilant.
”If you can’t reason all this, the best thing to always do with jews is believe the exact opposite of what they’re saying.”
not always son, because o’vhey often use morally correct values neglected by goy ”religion” to use against their odds.
Weisberg 2014 and Kaplan et al 2015 vindicate Gould’s measurements.
Click to access remeasuring-man.pdf
Kaplan et al 2015 say that Gould’s attempt to reverse Morton’s findings weren’t as justified. Which isn’t the same as “being caught falsifying data”.
Click to access KAPGOM.pdf
Gould is vindicated.
However scholar Greg Cochran is having none of it
LMAO! Who cares what a nobody who makes no valid points thinks?
He only tells just-so stories (his Jewish IQ hypothesis). Kipling would be proud to know that one hundred years later that evolutionary psychologists and physicists who play biologist are still telling just-so stories today.
Lol, true.
EGI is reality. but it varies a lot from one group to another.
the most ethnocentric group’s EGI can be explained by a sub-conscious or semi-conscious thought…
what is good for people like me is good for me.
what is bad for people like me is bad for me.
so ultimately it’s self-promotion or self-defense.
it’s self-ish.
EGI is NOT altruistic.
controlling media is most important (owning media). second is control of politicians and academia and college admissions.
but the idea that this widespread media ownership is the result of a conspiracy and that the owners communicate regarding the party line…this is not necessary to explain the facts.
1. what is good for people like me is good for me.
2. what is bad for people like me is bad for me.
Listen to him talk. He knows hes telling lies. Hes a psychopath.
(i put this comment in the wrong thread, delete the other one).
i deal with people like phil all the time….i’m ray and he’s seth
liotta was adopted. he likely has zero italian ancestry. sad!
like snooki.
my dick is brown you dumb mofo
pink junk is prettier than brown junk.
but women will never admit they care about junk beauty.
they do.
indeed…
seth is making “aesthetic” judgments too!
look at him go
Any increase in complexity of the environment increases the number of variables a person needs to hold in their brain to advance themselves in their environment.
Complexity breeds intelligence and I believe things have gotten more complex within the past 50 thousand years.
bullies are psychopathics, why ”humankind” is all this shit**
Off-topic comments go in the open thread. If you’re responding to a comment already in this thread, post it as a reply to them.
How do you prove something or start correctly a investigation, specially if this variable is relatively available in our naked-eye human perceptual scale**
Taking evidences [ =/= arguments]
What are the evidences about human racial differences in intelligence**
Fucking anywhere.
If immediate environment differences was the case so people who born in poor families and raised in good environments would had a progressive and or spontaneous changes in this matter. But it don’t happen. And when happens it’s not TOTALLY attributed to better ”nurture” as extremist environmentalists believe.
How inheritable is personality*
First of all, how intrinsically variable is personality*
The idea of social justice in underlying here
”The world cannot be that unfair. People who has been exploited by government become less smart exactly because this exploitation. So we need social equality to finnish this monstruous unfairness…. and it’s easier to solve this problem via equalizing social spaces”
I agree mostly about this
– people are, often, exploited
– most human governments, specially in complex societies, are dominated by: dumb, careless [still not that evil], irresponsible and or evil people
– slavery is not morally acceptable in most if not all the cases
– exploitation often can creates a dysgenic cycle at long term
…
– very deprived environment can affect people, BUT also, often select for people who are more resistent.
There are many practical, available and NON-ABSTRACT ways to investigate how inheritable personality and cognition are or can be.
And all this ways are, seems, incapable to be reached by
TRUE AUTISTS [people who don’t understand people and themselves///seems many people HERE]
Any trully smart, i mean, perceptive [analytical-critical-sane observer] teacher can perceive
– general intellectual differences among their pupils
-qualitative and quantitative ones
– racial differences
– sexual differences
– stability levels of all these differences
Indeed, believe in all this jewshitism is JUST another way to be a BELIEVER.
If you REALLY want a ”better world” accept facts instead to build values.
Instead to build values firstly.
you forget age Santo 🙂
Yes Kitty,
but this is the less important in intergroup comparative terms.
Or take your values from psychopaths who dont even believe in those values.
Which ‘facts’?
Facts= something you don’t care, don’t understand or don’t know what is it…
Answer my question.
tell me Santo,
what you perceive of me?
environments are harsh on all of us.
I told my doctor today I have a small mental box in my head that holds only a few things at a time and can only move them slowly about. (abstract > concrete)
I have a theory for A.I. but I cannot do the equations, my box is too small.
My brother always got angry at me saying my ideas not being practical. He never completes anything. My ideas are not practical because they need to be complete. They need resources. He is dumb because my brother never thinks of future consequences. I am careful, he just does things is he thinks he can.
I perceive you’re very sensitive in some ways, rigid and indifferent with another demands here because you’re always writing the same things and most people don’t care what you’re saying, it’s often uninteresting, repetitive/rigid and also very confused/broader-ed. You have a potential to be smarter or to sound smarter than actually you’re but right now you’re very confused and uninterested to be on-topic and coherent.
What is cognition? What is thinking?
The people on their part may think that cognition is knowing all about things, but the philosopher must say to himself: “When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, ‘I think,’ I find a whole series of daring assertions, the argumentative proof of which would be difficult, perhaps impossible: for instance, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an ‘ego,’ and finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking—that I KNOW what thinking is.
Cognition = something you no have
Thinking = something you don’t
That’s not an answer to my question. If you have nothing constructive to say then just don’t comment to me. Is that hard?
resources were so NOT scarce in ice age europe that people built houses out of the bones of mammoths.
white skin evolves from the combination of higher latitude and lower sunlight per se and the need to cover the body because cold…less skin exposed for the sunshine vitamin.
Much of Europe was covered in ice sheets so resources must have been extremely scarce sometimes.
only the (strong) weak survive XD
But you can put ice in a mircowave for water and its good for eating ice cream.
most anything said about how our ancestors lived and ‘how tough it was’ in the Ice Age are just-so stories. it’s all speculation and ad-hoc hypotheses—the definition of just-so stories.
Speculative? Yes. Ad-hoc? Hell no.
Cochran’s theory is ad hoc because it explains Jewish IQ and only Jewish IQ. Lynn’s theory is not ad hoc because he explains the IQs of all 10 of his geographic races using only 2 variables: climate & population size
“Ad-hoc? Hell no”
What are the independent verifiers? What risky, correct and novel predictions did the hypothesis lead to?
“Cochran’s theory is ad hoc because it explains Jewish IQ and only Jewish IQ.”
Glad to know we agree. =^)
“Lynn’s theory is not ad hoc because he explains the IQs of all 10 of his geographic races using only 2 variables: climate & population size”
What are the independent verifiers?
Would you agree Rushton’s r/K is just-so?
I think Rushton has a very good THEORY for explaining his facts, the problem is the facts might not be true. Seems a bit too perfect that all 60 variables he looked at perfectly fit his model, and the variables themselves were somewhat arbitrary. For example Rushton admitted that body size is a K trait that didn’t fit his ranking of the races. And crime and mental stability are obviously not traits ever discussed in the r/K literature which is based on animals, but he argued that since r genotypes are more opportunistic and less socially organized, they should be more criminal and crazy. Also, who he included in his races was inconsistent. For some traits he was discussing the entire Caucasoid or Mongoloid race (as traditionally defined). For other traits he would just compare whites vs Northeast Asians.
Eh, I would say the opposite; the theory isn’t good but the facts are pretty good which have been replicated by other researchers (see the CLASH model, still a just-so story but the data is sound).
Body size should be a K-trait since, according to Rushton, K-animals are ‘more evolved’ and body size has increased throughout evolutionary history (Gould discusses this in Full House but I need to check the book to refresh my memory on what he wrote about that. I don’t think he waved it away, but he explained it pretty well).
“Also, who he included in his races was inconsistent. For some traits he was discussing the entire Caucasoid or Mongoloid race (as traditionally defined). For other traits he would just compare whites vs Northeast Asians.”
Good point. With something like that it becomes extremely arbitrary. Why compare EAs and EUs on certain traits and then the broad (somewhat very arbitrary) ‘Mongoloids’ and ‘Caucasoids’?
But yea, at the end of the day, Rushton’s reasoning, if not looking at any rebuttals or whatnot, sounds like a good hypothesis, but it crumbles with a more fine-tuned investigation.
Lynn’s theory isn’t a theory because it tests hypothesis suggested by the data….
phew, that was a close one!
Cochran theory also would explain some upper Indian casts IQ like Baniya, who were also merchants, money lenders and dealers, who seems to score very high on IQ and scholastic tests, and are very much present in the quant trading floors. They also hold most positions in the diamond industry now, even in Tel Aviv.
I would say speculation helps speculation.
Maybe but we don’t know much about the IQs and diseases of upper cast Indians, compared to regular Indians. Cochran’s team does say this though:
Since strong selection for IQ seems to be unusual in humans (few populations have hadmost members performing high-complexity jobs) and since near-total reproductiveisolation is also unusual, the Ashkenazim may be the only extant human population withpolymorphic frequencies of IQ-boosting disease mutations, although another place tolook for a similar phenomenon is in India. In particular the Parsi are an endogamousgroup with high levels of economic achievement, a history of long distance trading,business, and management, and who suffer high prevalences of Parkinson disease, breastcancer, and tremor disorders, diseases not present in their neighbors (see “The UNESCOParsi Zoroastrian Project”, http://www.unescoparzor.com).
And regarding crime and r/K, he borrowed from Lee Ellis’ late 80s paper. I’m going to cover that soon.
Or maybe Lee Ellis borrowed from Rushton. I thought Rushton was the first to apply r/K to humans.
Maybe. I’m not aware of Rushton discussed crime in his original 1985 paper. Here’s Ellis’ paper, it looks (and reads) very very ancient compared to what we know today:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1080/01639625.1987.9967739
“Cochran theory also would explain some upper Indian casts IQ like Baniya, who were also merchants, money lenders and dealers, who seems to score very high on IQ and scholastic tests, and are very much present in the quant trading floors. They also hold most positions in the diamond industry now, even in Tel Aviv.”
What’s the independent verifier? How would you test if said hypothesized adaptation is not a byproduct or vice versa?
Its so obvious Rushton is right. But his only mistake was to apply it to overall racial categories. Because within certain racial categories you get K selected and R selected outside the norm. E.g. Mongols. Celtic people etc.
At this point Im not sure Race knows anything about these topics.
I bet next he’ll say evolution doesn’t apply to humans and evolution itself is a ‘just so’ story.
Its so obvious Rushton is right. But his only mistake was to apply it to overall racial categories. Because within certain racial categories you get K selected and R selected outside the norm. E.g. Mongols. Celtic people etc.
I don’t see how that’s a mistake on Rushton’s part. Just exceptions to a general trend.
Its better to view R/K selection as fast life and slow life strategies.
We know asians live longest and blacks live shortest.
We know asian men are the most domesticated and black men the least.
These things are in general. You can’t just keep saying exceptions are more important than the whole when the exceptions like the mongols give you even more information about how R selection works and in what environments humans adopt it.
“Would you agree Rushton’s r/K is just-so?”
Im starting to think afro is paying you money to say this stuff.
Do you think HBD is real?
Yes and out of the 10 richest people in India, 2 are Parsi and 8 are baniya. No Brahman. Maybe Cochran didn’t know the baniya who are closer to his Jewish theory than Parsi.
RR I was just responding to Pumpkin saying Cochran theory is not totally ad hoc because it could apply to other than Jewish (I believe there are also a small group of 200 endogamous families in Iran selected for’business with high IQ , the only woman with medal fields was from those people btw.
Its so obvious Rushton is right.
yeah that tends to be how theories that test hypothesis straight from the data set with the same data set look….’obviously right.’
phil is ronnie from observe and report. truly.
Im more interested in what is true and not true than doing tickbox exercise because im to fuckin dumb to work it rationally.
Philosopher,
“Its so obvious Rushton is right. But his only mistake was to apply it to overall racial categories. Because within certain racial categories you get K selected and R selected outside the norm. E.g. Mongols. Celtic people etc”
If he would have attempted to use ethnies rather than races, it’d be a bit better but not by my much.
“I bet next he’ll say evolution doesn’t apply to humans and evolution itself is a ‘just so’ story.”
Theories and hypotheses that cannot be independently verified are just-so stories. Evolutionary theory has been independently verified therefore it is not a just-so story.
“Its better to view R/K selection as fast life and slow life strategies”
So not r/K? Even viewing it in this manner, it still makes no sense because human races are not local populations.
“Im starting to think afro is paying you money to say this stuff.”
Nope. Everything I say I’m not paid to do so (unless I comment here while working).
“Do you think HBD is real?”
Humans are biologically diverse. No one denies this. Race is real. See the argument for the existence of minimalist race.
P1) There are differences in patterns of visible physical features which correspond to geographic ancestry
P2) These patterns are exhibited between real groups, existing groups (i.e., individuals who share common ancestry)
P3) These real, existing groups that exhibit these physical patterns by geographic ancestry satisfy conditions of minimalist race
C) Therefore race exists and is a biological reality
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2018/04/17/a-simple-argument-for-the-existence-of-race/
When goy ask if I “think HBD is real”, in what manner do you mean? Regarding just-so stories on IQ and evolutionary explanations for behavior? I don’t take to those.
Bruno,
What’s the independent verifier for the hypothesis?
“Who’s laughing at me? No one laughs at me, if anything I laugh at other idiots who are tryin’ do what they want, no one laughs at me for trying to do my destiny, not how this works…”
“There are differences in patterns of visible physical features which correspond to geographic ancestry”
So you think HBD is basically about appearences only? Which a 5 year old girl can work out?
I sometimes wonder if I drank the jew juice and became an academic and published a made up paper saying black women are even more attractive than any other type of women empircally and thats why we should have open borders, race would think I was a genius because it had some excel tables in it.
Race seems to put the burden of proof on concepts that go against common sense, but then turns around and thinks testosterone is not related to aggression and asians have the most testosterone based on reading 1 or 2 papers.
I just don’t get what goes through his mind other than he must be bribed to say this crap.
concepts that go with#
“So you think HBD is basically about appearences only? Which a 5 year old girl can work out?”
No but I try not to make brash evolutionary conclusions that cannot be independently verified.
Racialist races do not exist:
A third line of argument starts from the idea that in order for racialist races to exist, certain things must be true of human genetics, namely the following:
(a) The fraction of human genetic diversity between populations must exceed the fraction of diversity between them.
(b) The fraction of human genetic diversity within populations must be small.
(c) The fraction of diversity between populations must be large.
(d) Most genes must be highly differentiated by race.
(e) The variation in genes that underlie obvious physical differences must be typical of the genome in general.
(f) There must be several important genetic differences between races apart from the genetic differences that underlie obvious physical differences.
Note: (b) says that racialist races are genetically racially homogeneous groups; (c)-(f) say that racialist races are distinguised by major biological differences.
Call (a)-(f) the racialist concept of race’s genetic profile.—Michael Hardimon
Humans are biologically diverse in physical appearance, this is seen in real existing groups which correlates with geographic ancestry therefore race exists. It’s the most simple, and minimal, argument for the existence of race that exists. That’s all that’s needed to argue that race is a biological reality, in my opinion.
Cut! Uh, you fucked up ma’am. I’m, I’m the head of mall security. You should do that again and say it right.
“That’s all that’s needed to argue that race is a biological reality, in my opinion.”
You do realise the only reason anyone cares about the topic of race is because it means a lot more than appearances? When you say racialist races do not exist that seems to me that you are saying c to f aren’t true?
You know they are true otherwise the whole point of this blog is redundant and you wouldn’t be wasting time commenting here right?
You’re a moron.
Is the fraction of diversity between populations large? Are most genes highly differentiated by race? Is most variation in genes that underlie obvious physical differences typical of the genome in general? Are there several important genetic differences between races apart from the genetic differences that undeliverable obvious physical differences? (As an aside to (f) have they been replicated?)
The answer to these questions is no. Therefore racialist races don’t exist.
Highly recommended reading:
Is human cognition adaptive?
Click to access 10.1017%40s0140525x00070801.pdf
1. Specify precisely the goals of the cognitive system.
2. Develop a formal model of the environment to which the
system is adapted.
3. Make the minimal assumptions about computational
limitations.
4. Derive the optimal behavioral function given 1-3 above.
5. Examine the empirical literature to see whether the
predictions of the behavioral function are confirmed.
6. Repeat, iteratively refining the theory.
Finally, to return to the title of this target article, is human cognition adaptive? Despite the compelling evidence that various components of it are optimized to the
structure of the environment, it is unclear that we can leave with as positive an opinion about the functioning of the cognitive system as a whole. Consider memory, for
example. Our memory performance can be relatively insensitive to our knowledge about our memory needs. Therefore, we may know we will need to remember a telephone number in an hour’s time and will then be able to forget it. Memory does not respond to this knowledge and provide a momentary surge in the availability of the number in an hour’s time, however. Rather, it responds to the general statistics of the number’s use, oblivious to our-“knowledge” about its future use. It is possible that the various components of cognition are optimized within their narrow bounds but that they are unable to pass information which allows a global optimum to be achieved. Just as we achieve only local optima in problem solving over time, we may only achieve local optima over components. If so, such local-by-component optimization may or may not be explainable by considering computational constraints and uncertainty in defining the global optimum.
This paper is basically saying something a man that smells of urine sleeping in a box in a back alley could tell you about the brain.
The fact they dressed it up in technical jargon is laughable.
congrats on writing it, phil!
Pumpkin sleeps in a box in a back alley when hes not blogging.
Pumpkin what is it like to be a person of no fixed abode?
It’s not so bad, as long as there’s enough mammoth bones to build a hut 🙂
And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
I often wonder if all of us were thrown onto the street in say, calcutta which one of us would thrive the most.
I think you could call that an intelligence test of sorts.
It would mostly be a social intelligence test though.
But in terms of pure r selection for intelligence, its a great way to test the ‘bare essentials’ of cognition.
we’d all have one yuge advantage.
we’d all know that we needed to get out of calcutta.
idk i’d probably die first…i’d get caught up in local…activities
i knew one saudi in college. he was one of the smartest or the smartest.
he told me the kingdom was a third world country and its government sucked and that oman is the best place to visit in the arabian peninsula.
but i was wrong about the other gulf states. unlike peepee i can admit when i’m wrong.
kuwait, qatar, bahrain, the uae have so much money in their sovereign wealth funds oil and gas could go to $0 tomorrow and it would make zero difference.
these are the richest places on earth for their citizens. monaco doesn’t come close.
swank,
rome always wins.
even when it loses…
it wins.
the one holy catholic and apostolic church has how many “citizens”?
while all the religions of the world wither and fade into “hobbies”…
THE church remains.
by 2100+ the whole world will be roman.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
it’s so UTTERLY fucking ridiculous that…
it MUST be true.
Credo quia absurdum.
if the next pope is not chosen by the last pope then he is not in the succession line of Peter. The line of succession has been broken so many times there is no more line. Peters line is lost. All we have is some guy calling himself the line when he is the fake line. I don’t trust the Catholics democracy for popehood. you should only trust Peter and his line that is now gone. No church has any leader that is the line of Jesus Christ, Ian Smith/Mugabe. I am telling you.
Jesus was a Nazarene.
50,000 years ago the default IQ was 80 before leaving Africa. As the complexity of the environment, increased IQ increased with population separation. A weeding out effect occurred as those not able to handle the complexity did not survive. Too many things to keep track of or plan for. So only the ones that could were able to make a living there.
Sometimes I wish I could keep track of many things at once and plan things. I just have this abstract logic functioning. (abstract > concrete)
Rudyard Kipling would be proud of your story.
tell me more?
You told a tall-tale, a just-so story like Rudyard Kipling’s stories he told.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2781/2781-h/2781-h.htm
so that’s not how it happened?
What? Your IQ story?
If I was smart I would not conclude wrong ideas whereas you RR conclude the right ideas. Yet you think IQ is fake. Cause why would I have such a dumb conclusion unlike you. Hmmm?
Are you smarter than me RR, objectively speaking, what can you do I can’t and the reverse? Is it possible you can do more with your mind than I can do with my mind? That would mean you RR are more intelligent. Intelligence is doing more with the mind and if my conclusions are dumb it could be it was the best I could do. RR you do way more research because you can and I can’t because it takes you little effort and me extreme effort. That makes you smarter cause I just have a not good researched conclusion.
Are you smarter than me RR. Simple answer: does your mind do more?
I don’t know because I’m not in your mind.
RaceRealist: What? Your IQ story?
Human migration, complex environment, IQ
everything in the post
Yea all adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories.
RaceRealist: I don’t know because I’m not in your mind.
What I know is the volume of what you produce is way more than me and that means you need to be able to process it all and organize it.
I work on my theories but I have problems with volumes of material.
Most of my thinking is self-referential mathematician have used as their main theory of consciousness since the 1970’s. that means I have loops with many dependencies going in my logic. This is true of all thinking, I just complete the circle more concisely to get to my theories. (((Simplification)))
I have problems holding things in my head and doing mental manipulation, I am all language practically. I think by writing. But not with data manipulation but with concepts I put together linguistically I try to follow my theory. It’s almost mathematical. But I never could apply math to my ideas.
You organize huge volumes.
You can mentally manipulate.
I try to make theories with self-similar/self-referential logic and simplifications. I can’t do much so I refine everything I can do. I build clarity into my theories more and more.
the most marxist movie of the last 30 years?
the matrix
Morpheus: “What is [ideology]? Control. [Ideology] is a [art-created] dream world built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this (a AA battery).”
…
it is impossible to be an atheist while at the same time truly understanding the power and shape of ideas.
But, if the mere fact that I can produce from my thought the idea of something entails that everything that I clearly and distinctly perceive to belong to that thing really does belong to it, is not this a possible basis for another argument to prove the existence of God? Certainly, the idea of God, or a supremely perfect being, is one that I find within me just as surely as the idea of any shape or number. And my understanding that it belongs to his nature that he always exists is no less clear and distinct than is the case when I prove of any shape or number that some property belongs to its nature.
afro, swank, rr…all agree with the stereotype of their people.
therefore, they are sockpuppets.
I think Larry, Curly and Moe are actually good evidence for the theory that stereotypes are the wisdom of the crowd.
what you pin me down as?
Race I’m not going to ant crawl with you. I think its a waste of time. You can believe whatever you want. But I suggest you find out who the person was that hit you very hard on the head when you were a child.
IMO you could make intelligence evolve quicker but its obvious theres a paradox of smart fractions doing most of the analysis, inventing or engineering and therefore being able to support generally larger and larger populations of retardates as time progresses.
In Bill Gates case, you can directly link his work to about 200m more black babies in Africa who would have hit the malthusian frontier otherwise.
What Im basically saying is that taking the world as a whole I expect average IQ to drop over the next 100 years, even with better nutrition and schooling spreading.
You can already see it happening in the West actually if you look close enough at the culture.
Therefore its important to see evolution on a group wide basis rather than an individual basis.
Because a lot of people in Africa aren’t going to exist without aspies like Bill Gates getting seduced by jewish verbal voodoo.
See the way [redacted by pp, april 28, 2018].
Thats why jews always stick up for blacks.
i find women who look like denzel washington to be attractive.
Pumpkin you may know this. Are you able to hold around 63 things in memory and manipulate them all in your head without paper? If that is not the number what is the number you can mentally manipulate just in your head. More than 30 I guess. I can only do 6 items in my head. I can solve puzzles with 6 items in my head with no help from pen and paper. What we can do in our heads is important to intelligence. Language is about accessing long-term memory and I guess that means VIQ allows me to access 57 items from long-term memory at once to find the right words to talk to you pumpkin, you said I had high verbal but need structure. I do need to access all this information to say the right things. This could be said to be 57 items by my calculation of my verbal being 132. I am just not good with puzzles being 6 items squarely only in my head no looking at diagrams. This is why they say I have a learning disability. I cannot make any of my ideas/theories realized/concrete/practically created. I wish I could make them real.