[Please post all off-topic comments in the most recent open thread. They will not be posted here]
I was listening to an autism lecture by the great Simon Baron-Cohen and around the 49 minute mark, someone in the audience asks what Simon thinks of the research showing autism is a slow life history strategy while schizophrenia is a fast life history strategy. Simon is unfamiliar with the research but agrees it sounds plausible.
The research he’s citing sounds like my June 3, 2014 article Autism, schizophrenia and social class, where I wrote:
I’ve come across some fascinating research showing that autism is more common in higher social classes and schizophrenia is more common in lower social classes. In my opinion, this is because the higher social classes tend to be more nerdy (K selected) and the lower social classes tend to be more cool (r selected). The higher classes are nerdy in that they are more educated, more monogamous, more scrawny, and less sexually active. By contrast, the lower classes are “cool” because they are more blue collar, more muscular, more likely to get arrested, more into sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll.
Of course I’m not the first to speculate that autism might be linked to slow life history. There was a 2001 web page arguing that autism may have been inherited from Neanderthals:
Under harsh conditions it’s advantageous to mature and grow slower. This means individuals can survive on fewer resources. A consequence of slower maturing is longer life. Jack Cuozzo shows that Neanderthals matured slower than us, and probably got older. Autistic children often develop according to another slower scheme than other children, and may continue to develop into their 30s. 105 106 It is also believed that a key factor in ADHD might be slower mental maturation. 107 Similar findings exists for schizophrenia
However this article did not make my point (made by Simon’s questioner) that schizophrenics have fast life histories, instead arguing they have slow life histories. And I’ve never believed that autism was inherited from Neanderthals, though I have speculated it might partly be an evolutionary adaptation to extreme cold. It may also be an adaptation to civilization as Philosopher has argued.
Commenters like Race Realist are constantly arguing IQ tests are pseudoscience, but as Jordan Peterson cleverly noted, if you reject IQ, then you have to reject all of psychology, because IQ is the best validated construct psychologists have ever come up with.
Race Realist argues that IQ tests are based on circular logic because tests are constructed so that people considered smart score well. While that’s partly true, we’re now at the point where IQ tests can be constructed by wholly objective criteria such as the degree to which test items correlate with the general intelligence factor (g) derived from a factor analysis of a large battery of tests.
If Race Realist thinks IQ tests are circular and pseudoscientific, what does he think of AQ questionnaires (Autism Quotient measures)? These tests have questions like “do you like numbers?” and then report that math majors are more autistic. This seems much more circular to me than IQ tests .
I think the best way to study autism is to avoid the questionnaires and instead just look at the most extreme cases (like Rain Man) than everyone in every culture could immediately agree is autistic. If autism is truly linked to STEM talent (as Simon Baron-Cohen argues) or slow life history (as I’ve argued), it should be evident in the non-autistic siblings and parents of people like Rain Man who would regress to a milder (sub-clinical) variant of the condition. On the other hand, if Rain Man’s relatives are just as likely to be bartenders as engineers, then autism is simply a disorder, and not a pathological extreme of normal (adaptive) variation.
ASD lacks construct and biological validity.
“The findings reviewed indicate that the ASD diagnosis lacks biological and construct validity. The paper concludes with proposals for research going forward.”
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40489-016-0085-x
And Peterson is appealing to consequences saying that if one rejects IQ they must reject all other psychology. Psychology cannot be an empirical science, anyway.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12124-015-9339-x
Full paper (and choice quotes):
These limits are indicated in Joachim Israel’s metaphor about “inflating a balloon from the inside” and Piaget’s observation (paraphrased) that “one cannot accommodate to what one has not assimilated”. This was directly illustrated in a study of mine where a person was unable to learn a simple observable regularity in 4800 trials (no accommodation), but where this became possible after the regularity was explained and understood (assimilated) (Smedslund, 1961)
However, there is much evidence showing that also real psychological research can be pseudo-empirical. (Arnulf et al. 2015; Semin et al. 1987, 1988; Smedslund 1994a, b, 1997a, b, 2000, 2008; Wallach & Wallach 1998).
In conclusion, the preponderance of pseudo-empirical hypotheses is a serious weakness of the current tradition and the goal of finding some hitherto unknown genuinely empirical regularity is unlikely to be reached. It remains to discuss one more weakness of the current research-strategy, namely a failure to face squarely the methodological consequences of the social interactivity of psychological processes.
I have tried to show here that, as I see it, the currently dominant empirical research paradigm cannot be successful because of limitations imposed by the nature of psychological processes. See also (Smedslund, 2009).
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s12124-015-9339-x
That ASD paper looks fascinating
Full paper:
Click to access 10.1007%2Fs40489-016-0085-x.pdf
This guy is very open minded and cool because I exchanged some ideas with him and he proposed to give me credit ! I said no because I am not a researcher.
As for the test, there are some interesting data. Only from memory, out of 50, women average 14, men 16, people in hard science (not medicine) are around 20. The threshold for Asperger/HFA high risk is 32. The UK math Olympiad team was at 25. People who have been diagnosed with one of those have an average of 38. I got 46 (twice, and one time 48).
But in my case I don’t believe I have Asperger but something else with no moniker or description yet ….
I think you have some rare genetic mutation(s) that caused super high IQ but with a few side effects, since most mutations are damaging.
Pure speculation.
I must have something like Cooijmans but with no Asperger, Then that allows me to be open to other people and genuinely interested in them.
No RR I am not an asset on the market 🙂
Bruno has aspergers. You can tell it from the personality of his writing. Its clinicial.
Why is pill allowed to accuse people of being a sperg but not me, my accusations are perfectly reasonable
Maybe. But there must be diverse categories of aspies. It’s true that when people saw Young Sheldon movie, some told it was me !
But I saw some episodes and didnt relate that much. The way he says to other their dumb is like telling people their ugly. It’s a horrible thing I would have never done in my life. And I have never been obsess with imposing rules on anyone (I liked discovering rules, but not normative one). And never had one topic only, but many of them. Maybe those characteristics aren’t important.
I like him too, but the autism questionnaires he uses seem pretty circular in that they define STEM traits as autistic and then use those traits to claim STEM majors are autistic.
Not that much because the data from Cambridge university students (who are quite nerdy) , out of 174, average was 15 in biology, 21 in math and computer science (with higher sd for cs) but only 4 were about 32 (2.9%) wich is not that much. So the test gives you a good quick idea. And aspies were far above the 5 math Olympiad guys.
People without mental imagery like me (or kitty) will get some points only because of that, but if there is a link among the two conditions, that’s not really a bias.
The test is a bit « simplistic » wich is a quality (and limit) of this professor. But his is first of all a physician doing clinical science. It shows that passion , work and an open mind gets you far !
Bruno, how does he know his test is measuring autism? Because autistics score high? How does he know those autistics are autistic? Because they were diagnosed with autism using the same traits he measures on the test. Seems very circular.
Correct.
“Bruno, how does he know his test is measuring autism? Because autistics score high? How does he know those autistics are autistic? Because they were diagnosed with autism using the same traits he measures on the test. Seems very circular.”
PP is showing skepticism. I’m shocked. =^)
I don’t have inside knowledge but it is only a clinical test. So the goal of the test is matching the clinical results. It is circular by design. It’s not not here to challenge them or give a scientific definition of the condition. If Asperger is just a bias in some psychiatrist mind, it will just reproduce it if iit works ie if correlation among diagnostic made by clinician independently and test correlate. And the data I’ve seen is quite good (but I would have liked to see more clinical diagnosis of people under 25 to be sure)
I wrote it’s simplistic because I induce from the questions that he took Hans Asperger and Tony Attwood clinical remarks about aspies. Assemble them into categories. And then just ask people if they fall into. It looks like Aspies are not self blind when asked on those traits so the test identifies the targets. It must get false positives (socially anxious people for example).
So it’s really like a questionnaire to determine if you’re depressed that would have good correlation with suicides rates . Not more.
An idea for you Pumpkin, you could do without Pb a clinical test for IQ. You know the many traits that correlate with IQ. I am pretty sure that with 50 questions, you would be able to tell with a 90% confidence level that above a certain score, people are gifted.
But the test wouldn’t be g loaded at all, at least for the taker 😉
I did something like that once:
https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/05/17/revised-formula-for-estimating-iq-from-bio-demographics/
“How does he know those autistics are autistic?”
Because Autism is already a defined(thought not concrete) disease. Medical specialists know what autism is, so yes it’s circular, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I’d be worried if it wasn’t circular.
Because Autism is already a defined(thought not concrete) disease. Medical specialists know what autism is, so yes it’s circular, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I’d be worried if it wasn’t circular.
Traditional autism is well defined, but this was historically a very rare and extreme condition where the child would never look at people, never speak, and spend all day lining up dominoes. The trouble comes when one assumes that any socially awkward obsessively systematic person has a mild variant of the same condition. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.
But we don’t assume every short friendly person with poor spatial skills have a mild form of William’s syndrome.
“The trouble comes when one assumes that any socially awkward obsessively systematic person has a mild variant of the same condition. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.”
This could be true, assuming autism is a spectrum within a spectrum, as you iterated before.
what guy?
iq tests aren’t pseudoscience. they consistently measure real world skills and predict real-world outcomes. it may be that iq tests test acquired cultural knowledge, which would be correlated to general intelligence because it stands to reason that smart people would acquire more cultural knowledge than non-smart people.
stating that iq tests measure intelligence directly, that iq is ‘genetic,’ that certain races are genetically deficient in intelligence compared to others, etc. etc. is where the pseudoscience starts.
psychiatry/psychology is a joke.
the DSM is a joke.
here is how a personality disorder is defined by the DSM:
“An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior the deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual’s culture.”
it may be that iq tests test acquired cultural knowledge, which would be correlated to general intelligence because it stands to reason that smart people would acquire more cultural knowledge than non-smart people.
If you don’t think general intelligence is genetic or can be measured directly, I’m surprised you think it exists at all & wonder how you would even differentiate it from cultural knowledge.
Oh there you go again with the equivocation, ‘genetic’ in the trivial ‘arising from’ sense (humans have DNA so technically everything can be described as ‘genetic’) and ‘genetic’ in the HBD/heredetarian sense: immutable, non-plastic, mostly fixed.
And indeed, everyone -should- be wondering how to differentiate ‘intelligence’ from acquired cultural knowledge, because that’s pretty much all we have to go on at this point. The only way to assess another person’s ‘intelligence’ is to observe how much cultural knowledge they have acquired, which is merely their facility for language — language = symbols that map to reality, facility with language = ability to do algebra with the symbols.
Thus far there is NO way to differentiate it from acquired cultural knowledge. There was even a paper coming to this exact conclusion not so long ago that me and Muggy cited extensively.
If anything, intelligence may come down to smart being something you BECOME rather than anything you ARE, as in, someone who is SMART simply has the WILL TO UNDERSTAND. intelligence may merely be just that: differences in the will to understand, i.e. curiosity.
people hate this because i surmise they enjoy being ‘fixed’ rather than entertaining the real possibility that they are more in control of their own destiny than they’d like to admit. jayman would kill himself if he knew that him being fat was in his control and that him being with a fat white woman also was in his own control (‘muh genes!’ is much better for coping purposes).
Wasn’t trying to equivocate, just genuinely trying to understand your view.
In my opinion, an IQ test directly measures intelligence if bushmen adopted into upper class white homes would score the same as their equally well nourished & healthy counterparts living in the wild.
And if by slightly transforming the test to get some motivation of bushmen, you give them logical problems like you’re wich way is better to catch this animal etc , you rank people, say in a community of 50 adults. And then ask them who are the cleverest in the village (if you have this problem, wich person is the one who knows what to do for you to deal with it). And give them the test ranking and ask for comments ? Should correlate strongly and enlighten some people about unnoticed ones. Cognitive revolution in the bushes
Yes, but that can’t happen because the tests are normed relative to cultural knowledge anyway….
So their counterparts ‘living in the wild’ most assuredly would not score well on most every significantly g-loaded test (vocabulary has the highest g-loading, for example).
there is no ‘test’ for intelligence divorced from one’s culture. it cannot happen. it is impossible. intelligence is a social phenomenon.
“The psychologist Michael Cole and some colleagues once gave members of the Kpelle tribe, in Liberia, a version of the WISC similarities test: they took a basket of food, tools, containers, and clothing and asked the tribesmen to sort them into appropriate categories. To the frustration of the researchers, the Kpelle chose functional pairings. They put a potato and a knife together because a knife is used to cut a potato. “A wise man could only do such-and-such,” they explained. Finally, the researchers asked, “How would a fool do it?” The tribesmen immediately re-sorted the items into the “right” categories.”
Biologists sometimes compare apes, dogs, crows and human children on the same intelligence test, so maybe a culture fair test is somewhat possible if we’re creative enough.
The problem with most IQ tests is they resemble school too much which unfair to those who’ve never been.
“people hate this because i surmise they enjoy being ‘fixed’ rather than entertaining the real possibility that they are more in control of their own destiny than they’d like to admit. jayman would kill himself if he knew that him being fat was in his control and that him being with a fat white woman also was in his own control (‘muh genes!’ is much better for coping purposes).”
HAHAHA, what a legend. Agree with everything you said for the most part.
IQ tests besides Ravens are a complete joke tbh, Ravens is bad but the other IQ tests are just terrible, laughable.
PP’s refusal to allow IQ test questions to be posted is ridiculous tbh, makes them immune to criticism, or I would tear apart every garbage question of the Weschler and even some Raven questions.
DONT INVALIDATE THE IQ TEST!!!!!!!! = religion, since they become immune to criticism
And especially the mega-test, what a fucking joke, makes me mad thinking about it, that this kind of shit can be considered even remotely scientific or representative of intelligence
The Raven is the most laughable of all under the guise of ‘culture-free/fair” as Jensen (wrongly) claimed.
hereditists and their now dead opponents, skinnerians, both suffer intolerable cognitive dissonance.
the hereditists don’t want to believe they could have been someone very different from who they are in personality.
the environmentalists don’t want to believe they can’t be anything other than what they are and deserve their failures and successes equally.
the reality of human behavior is an aufhebung. nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. both positions are false. this is an example of how something can be very simple yet impossible to understand…even for chinese american physics professors…let alone psychology professors.
“nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. both positions are false. this is an example of how something can be very simple yet impossible to understand…even for chinese american physics professors…let alone psychology professors.”
Truest thing you’ve ever said.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223161/
http://www.academia.edu/791831/The_nurturing_of_natures
Swank,
“people hate this because i surmise they enjoy being ‘fixed’ rather than entertaining the real possibility that they are more in control of their own destiny than they’d like to admit. jayman would kill himself if he knew that him being fat was in his control and that him being with a fat white woman also was in his own control (‘muh genes!’ is much better for coping purposes).”
JayMan is one of the biggest clowns I’ve ever come across. Read the comments of his ‘5 laws of behavior genetics’ article, and, surprise surprise, here’s the end:
Indeed, we see this with health and lifestyle: people who exercise more have fewer/later health problems and live longer, so naturally conventional wisdom interprets this to mean that exercise leads to health and longer life, when in reality healthy people are driven to exercise and have better health due to their genes.
http://www.unz.com/jman/the-five-laws-of-behavioral-genetics/
This is dumb. As I said to him in his article, behavioral interventions work (I’ve used them) to change people’s eating habits. JayMan invokes his favorite ‘first law of behavior genetics’, but that’s BS too:
Click to access 10.1002%40wcs.1405.pdf
JayMan is wrong on dieting; he thinks that the Look AHEAD study concluded that exercise and dieting “don’t work” (that’s BS too, see: http://www.nmcd-journal.com/article/S0939-4753(13)00303-7/fulltext ) so he “advises” people (with absolutely no understanding of human physiology nor an education in nutrition/exercise science) to not diet because in the end it doesn’t matter cuz genes. But he claims, at the same time, to not be a determinist but his writings say otherwise…
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/08/05/diet-and-exercise-dont-do-it-part-ii/
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/07/30/diet-and-exercise-dont-do-it/
I don’t take him seriously on genetics and ‘HBD’ and I most definitely don’t take him seriously on dieting and health because he’s a clown with no real understanding of the literature. Perfect example of confirmation bias, but he’s never worked with anyone in this capacity in his life so why the hell should I take what he says seriously since he reads ‘behavior genetics’ papers and has never dealt with people in a real-life context?
Damn swank, I’m totally having a man crush on you right now. Sorry.
well rr he is a fat black man who got with a fat white woman. perhaps he truly is controlled by his ethnic genetic impulses
I notice everyone on this blog seems to be a master of confirmation bias. You had certain beliefs growing up and then once you found out about HBD you started collecting evidence to back your already-held beliefs.
I’m probably the only person here who was ever open to both sides of the equation. In fact if you had a 15-year old version of me and explained HBD I wouldve been both horrified and incredulous. And I’m still willing to reject HBD if someone can find even decent counter-evidence.
try reading rr’s articles then see a psychiatrist stat.
the hereditists don’t want to believe they could have been someone very different from who they are in personality.
Hereditarians don’t think much about themselves. They’re just thinking about cutting social and education funding, stopping immigration, opposing pro-diversity initiatives and abolishing affirmative action. That’s why they’re already calling for policy change based on evidence that isn’t there.
As for themselves, some may take pride in thinking that their success is due to their genocide endowment and they’re sick of hearing about their so-called privileges. But most of them are losers who engage in collective narcissism despite not being that bright themselves.
take pride in thinking that their success is due to their genocide endowment
Ooops, Freudian slip.
Genetic endowment.
You had certain beliefs growing up and then once you found out about HBD you started collecting evidence to back your already-held beliefs.
While I agree that I am naturally inclined to reject HBD, it’s only normal to meet such doctrines with extra-skepticism and very often, the only thing that HBDers and other evo psych guys can reply is that their critiques have extreme evidential exigences, which is a way to concede that HBD is not based on the scientific method.
As for the evidential standards, you’ll see in the practice of law that it’s not just physics or chemistry that impose very rigorous standards of evidence, especially in Roman Law systems.
As for confirmation bias, it’s HBD that is very oriented toward confirmation, it never attempts to falsify its claims and each component of the doctrine has a belt of ad hoc explanations to preserve it from falsification, very typical of pseudosciences.
Afro,
“As for confirmation bias, it’s HBD that is very oriented toward confirmation, it never attempts to falsify its claims and each component of the doctrine has a belt of ad hoc explanations to preserve it from falsification, very typical of pseudosciences.”
Exactly. Going off that, what surprising and risky novel facts have been predicted from HBD ‘theory’ that were not known before the ‘theory'” was developed?
Going off that, what surprising and risky novel facts have been predicted from HBD ‘theory’ that were not known before the ‘theory’” was developed?
Absolutely none. The failed predictions abound however. The most notable being Charles Murray’s theory of the rise of a genetic cognitive elite debunked this year.
What would falsify ‘HBD’ in the eyes of ‘HBDers’?
“In my opinion, an IQ test directly measures intelligence if bushmen adopted into upper class white homes would score the same as their equally well nourished & healthy counterparts living in the wild.”
Didnt RR show an study were performance between non schooled and shooled native americans were drastically different?
I agree with your second paragraph not your first.
IQ tests measure distance from the middle class. The tests are constructed based on middle class knowledge. Therefore IQ tests are really proxies for class.
If that were true only people in the middle class would score high on IQ tests.
Middle and upper classes. Lower classes score lower.
https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/250660667/Richardson-2002-What-Iq-Tests-Test
IQ tests measuring class seem stupid, why do you think they do? Ravens seems to measure education, Weschler random trivia and some maths
peepee thinks a child raised by wolves will score the same as his identical twin raised by jewish professors as long as the IQ test isn’t “culturally loaded”. and she knows which tests are so loaded because densen told her.
If you ask people to solve problems and rank them, the fact that the best problem solvers comes on top doesn’t strike me as mirabilia.
The hypothesis that there exist a general capacity, in a more or less fixed level by 20, that will allow you to learn things faster, better and with less effort, isn’t remarkable.
And that thing being distributed not equally but normally among people and groups of people, Fits the rule of nature and is ok, if this thing is a trait belonging to nature as hypothesized.
Then I saw a class for moderatly gifted in Nice and all 10 yo selected (1 in 10 among candidates) were able to course the 8 years of secondary education in 3 years (more or less 1 year). That wouldn’t been possible with the 1 in 10 dumber even if you made them thin they were gifted.
The environment/genetic is open. The scientific knowledge of what is intelligence (and more of what is the mental realm) is wide open. It’s indépendance of a society values is open. But I think psy can select intelligent people for the here and now, like model scout can select beauties. People could measure heat long before knowing thermodynamic.
Why would upper classes do well on a test of MIDDLE class knowledge?
If it was a test of MIDDLE class knowledge then BOTH lower classes and upper classes should do poorly or at least WORSE than the middle class. that’s not what we find.
not only that, but the amount of individual variation is just far too much: many lower class individuals score high, many upper class individuals score low. too messy.
Fenoopy,
“IQ tests measuring class seem stupid, why do you think they do? Ravens seems to measure education, Weschler random trivia and some maths”
Because certain classes compared to others don’t have the same access to the general knowledge on the tests.
“If you ask people to solve problems and rank them, the fact that the best problem solvers comes on top doesn’t strike me as mirabilia.”
Mirabilia? Anyway, so what?
“The hypothesis that there exist a general capacity, in a more or less fixed level by 20, that will allow you to learn things faster, better and with less effort, isn’t remarkable.”
It’s incorrect; what novel predictions does said ‘g’ ‘hypothesis’ make?
“And that thing being distributed not equally but normally among people and groups of people, Fits the rule of nature and is ok, if this thing is a trait belonging to nature as hypothesized.”
Natural selection lowers genetic variation in traits important for survival. Intelligence is important for survival. Therefore intelligence should have a low variation in humans.
“The environment/genetic is open. The scientific knowledge of what is intelligence (and more of what is the mental realm) is wide open. It’s indépendance of a society values is open. But I think psy can select intelligent people for the here and now, like model scout can select beauties. People could measure heat long before knowing thermodynamic.”
Heat is measured in joules; this is how we can know how many kcal a certain food has. Though since measuring kcal was done before thermodynamics, heat measures weren’t “work”. How they measured it was to compare with what’s necessary to raise the temperature by one unit in a certain amount of water. Joules as a measure of heat energy were used about 40 years before the discovery of thermodynamics.
Did people make grandiose claims about heat 100 years ago as those who ‘measure’ ‘IQ’ do today? Psychology is a highly flawed ‘discipline’.
“Why would upper classes do well on a test of MIDDLE class knowledge?
If it was a test of MIDDLE class knowledge then BOTH lower classes and upper classes should do poorly or at least WORSE than the middle class. that’s not what we find.”
IQ tests are largely tests of general cultural knowledge, as you yourself said. So you’re telling me that upper-class people don’t hear/read/have access to the same materials as middle-class people?
“not only that, but the amount of individual variation is just far too much: many lower class individuals score high, many upper class individuals score low. too messy.”
How large is this variation? Source?
Lower-class people are unprepared—compared to middle- and upper-class people—to test-take due to lack of general cultural knowledge. Stress, anxiety, prepardness, etc all contribute to test-taking outcomes.
IQ measures social class—meaning it is measuring degree of sociocognitive-affective preparedness for IQ tests—not “complex cognition”.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1002.4245&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Mugabe,
“Culturally unloaded” ‘IQ’ tests are impossible:
Since all human cognition takes place through the medium of cultural/psychological tools, the very idea of a culture-free test is, as Cole (1999) notes, ‘a contradiction in terms . . . by its very nature, IQ testing is culture bound’ (p. 646). Individuals are simply more or less prepared for dealing with the cognitive and linguistic structures built in to the particular items.
Click to access 3398d781543cd0edcf51f181074f4c3ff35b.pdf
That would mean Weschler is nearly 80% a measure of class
I get what you mean but class is a shit way to describe it, the type of knowledge you’re exposed to doesn’t always correlate to class
just say IQ tests measure middle-class knowledge/trivia
even that statement is inaccurate i think.
“That would mean Weschler is nearly 80% a measure of class”
Why?
“the type of knowledge you’re exposed to doesn’t always correlate to class”
Of course it “doesn’t always correlate”, but class comes with certain psychological, cultural and social tools which are differentially distributed between class which cause differences in test scores.
“just say IQ tests measure middle-class knowledge”
That’s what they measure.
rr,
that was my point.
Mugabe, I know. The claim that culture-free IQ tests are possible is ridiculous
Mirabilia : marvels.
If all what’s important for survival (or reproduction) were equally distributed, all humans would be healthy and beautiful. Besides, if you compare human with the cleverest animals, we are very intelligent.
That’s it. You can measure something without having a fine scientific theory about it. IQ is not grandiose. It’s so despised (or banned) that no prestigious institution recruits by IQ. If it were important, they would be an army of test creators and there would be no fear of compromising the few existent ones. If someday a society decides to use it massively, it would be a real enriching experience.
“all humans would be healthy and beautiful”
Nope. Mutations exist.
“You can measure something without having a fine scientific theory”
How do you know it measures what it purports to measure?
“If someday a society decides to use it massively, it would be a real enriching experience.”
Why? Nothing would be different.
‘So you’re telling me that upper-class people don’t hear/read/have access to the same materials as middle-class people?’
Different classes adhere to different social norms and have different sets of ‘cultural knowledge.’
So, if it were true that the tests tested solely for middle class norms and knowledge, then yes, ‘upper class’ people would do worse on them than middle class people.
‘How large is this variation? Source?’
Net worth is a good indicator of social class, would you agree?
Here is net worth vs IQ:
If IQ were just a test of class, then higher IQ scores would have a more meaningful relation to net worth. Even the correlation with income isn’t particularly strong, but it’s significant at least, but alas, income is a less salient predictor of class than net worth, which further supports what I’m saying.
When I say ‘accumulated cultural knowledge,’ I literally mean ‘algebra with language,’ as in this = that. The reason why vocabulary is so g-loaded is because it requires a very detailed understanding of the exact definitions behind words and the ability to parse the differences between even synonyms.
You may think there would be a correlation between ‘class knowledge’ and ‘cultural knowledge’ because as one moves up in class, one needs to learn how to communicate in ever more subtle ways. But this is based on the fantasy of higher classes being much more refined and erudite than they actually are.
“if it were true that the tests tested solely for middle class burns and knowledge, then yes, ‘upper class’ people would do worse on them than middle class people.”
Test items such as ‘what is the boiling point of water’ and basic knowledge found in the middle class are, also, found in the upper class.
“would you agree?”
No. Social class isn’t net worth, it isn’t wealth, nor parental education or income.
“If IQ scores were just a test of class, then higher IQ scores would have a more meaningful relation to net worth.”
Not at all. Class isn’t only about income/net worth/education etc.
“When I say ‘accumulated cultural knowledge'”
I.e., knowledge that certain classes would have over others. If you’re part of the class the tests are made for and by, then you’ll score high. Your objection about higher classes is good, but it’s easily explained by they have more of, and similar knowledge, to the middle class.
“because as one moves up on class, one needs to learn how to communicate in ever more subtle ways.”
Good thought. And I do think there’s a relationship between class and cultural knowledge, obviously, because the main class is middle and that’s where a majority of cultural knowledge derives.
To add some perspective, even if it’s assumed that the upper class’ culture is more nuanced than lower ones, then how would that contradict Swank’s first paragraph? If anything that reinforces his point that IQ tests reflect general intelligence/knowledge.
If it’s simply another form of the Nature vs nurture argument, then that implies RR is propagating a false dichotomy, which he literally just commended Mugabe on denouncing..
“If anything that reinforces his point that IQ tests reflect general intelligence/knowledge.”
They reflect general knowledge, not ‘general intelligence’, since higher classes are more likely to be exposed to the information on the tests as well as the structure of said tests.
“then that implies RR is propagating a false dichotomy”
Not at all. From the most recent GWA study, 7 percent of variance is explained which means GWA studies capture social class stratification, not ‘genetic’ IQ differences. That further buttresses my point. These genetic class differences are irrelevant to cognitive ability and educational attainment.
all those iq statistics are shit and meaningless without knowing which test was used. the tests are so different from each other they might as well be given different units
So, if it were true that the tests tested solely for middle class norms and knowledge, then yes, ‘upper class’ people would do worse on them than middle class people.
No, the mean of 100 represents middle class culture, but the difficulty gradient represents the social hierarchy with just one caveat: there’s a level after which wealth/income cease to make a significant difference. billionaires don’t have a thousand times the vocabulary or the knowledge of millionaires for instance.
“all those iq statistics are shit and meaningless without knowing which test was used. the tests are so different from each other they might as well be given different units”
All IQ tests are shit and meaningless. Period.
Also, your wealth/iq graph doesn’t show people worth under $20,000 so it’s not really informative.
ok, well rr if your position is that net worth is not a RELIABLE INDICATOR (that doesn’t mean it = high class) of social class, then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. most every source I’ve ever seen, when ferreting out upper class v. other classes primarily focuses on wealth, then income, then education.
and yes, while there would be overlap between upper class and middle class ‘class knowledge,’ there would still be knowledge there that would be exclusive to the middle class, meaning that upper class individuals ought to perform worse.
and by saying that IQ scores, if the tests were tests of class, would not have a meaningful relation to a marker of class that is widely considered to be the PRIMARY marker just seems a little off, to me.
higher IQ is associated with higher education, which is a marker of class, but at the same time, higher education != middle class. the middle class has a HH income above the 20th and below the 80th percentile:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/heres-how-much-you-have-to-earn-to-be-considered-middle-class.html
most people don’t even think a college education is a pre-requisite for being middle-class, nor do they think owning a home is necessary (lol!):
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/04/what-americans-say-it-takes-to-be-middle-class/
so it’s just hard for me to take this ‘middle-class’ stuff seriously, because the above represents the middle class, and the markers associated with IQ — education, net worth, income — aren’t particularly noteworthy in the middle class.
afro argues that the mean of 100 represents middle class knowledge…well then that means the test DEFINITELY is not one of middle class knowledge. instead it would mean that the test is one of cultural knowledge and the mean of 100 represents the typical amount of knowledge possessed by a member of the middle class. no need to invoke special thresholds.
it seems like you mean is the test is one of cultural zeitgeist knowledge, which can be viewed as belonging to a society’s upper middle class (IMO the lower upper class), but then that’d only because that group utilizes superior accumulated cultural knowledge to acquire its status, IMO, not because that particular class is special.
I can agree to disagree.
“meaning that upper class individuals ought to perform worse.”
Well what kind of IQ tests are you speaking about?
What is widely considered to be the primary marker? I don’t think it’s that nuanced, as multiple factors coalesce into a nexus that is social class.
“it’s just hard for me to take this ‘middle-class’ stuff seriously”
Look at the FLynn effect. It mirrors the swelling of the middle class. Thusly, since the middle class swelled as the FLynn effect did its ‘work’, that’s more evidence that IQ tests are proxies for social class.
i disagree, iq tests are very shit, but a stupid person isn’t going to score 145 no matter what, to be able to score that high definitely requires intelligence as a prerequisite, scoring low however doesn’t really mean anything. iq test are useless as a measurement, but they definitely require intelligence of some sort to get high scores
Scoring high requires ‘intelligence’ (whatever that is) but scoring low doesn’t? How does that make sense?
They require being exposed to the relevant information on the test, along with being in ‘good enough’ cultural/class environments to be exposed to the information on the test.
i believe IQ tests are shit when used to pass judgment on human worth, genetics, racial genetic differences, etc.
I believe IQ tests are NOT shit when used to pass judgement on diferently developed skills specific to the tests.
for example — if person A has a much higher vocab score than person B, it’s perfectly fine to say ‘person A is much better with his vocabulary than person B.’ Any other conclusion, however, is false.
but again, we need to consider the larger whole.
from an objective truth point IQ tests are shit for the purposes I outlined above.
but IQ tests serve a valuable IDEOLOGICAL PURPOSE: the justification for the status quo and preservation of a belief in the just world (meritocracy).
until we reach the point where no portion of the populous needs to work to sustain the populous, we are going to need these little ideological devices and tools.
Put simply, it’s wrong to say IQ tests are tests of middle class culture because IQ just tests measure IQ. However, they are constructed to correlate with indices of the social hierarchy, so they are just another measure of social class that wealth or income alone don’t capture.
You’ll always find a significant difference between IQ and traditional measures of SES. Firstly because SES is not normally distributed like IQ scores are forced to be, secondly because the relationship between wealth/income and cultural/educational outcomes isn’t linear, money ceases to make a difference whereas very small differences in income have a large impact at the bottom of the income distribution.
What is widely considered to be the primary marker? I don’t think it’s that nuanced, as multiple factors coalesce into a nexus that is social class.
Wealth as measured by net worth. It’s considered one of the main determinants, for sure:
“Most social scientists agree that American society is stratified into social classes, based on wealth, education, and occupation.”
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-sociology/chapter/social-class-in-the-u-s/
“Possession of substantial amounts of wealth is the main characteristic distinguishing the upper class from other class groups in society. Persons having more wealth and income generally have higher social position and respect in society. Wealth and income (money), though necessary for upper-class position, yet one’s class position is not directly proportional to his income.”
http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/sociology/4-main-criteria-used-in-the-determination-of-social-class/35102
So while I don’t disagree that it’s a perfect indicator, I do think it’s fair to say that it’s reliable. And I don’t disagree that there are many factors, either.
Look at the FLynn effect. It mirrors the swelling of the middle class. Thusly, since the middle class swelled as the FLynn effect did its ‘work’, that’s more evidence that IQ tests are proxies for social class.
Yes, but I believe that the Flynn effect more or less follows the rise of big media and several activities that made cultural knowledge more accessible: TV, radio, video games, big newspapers, etc. I think this acquisition is what allowed the middle class to expand.
And me and you aren’t disagreeing over whether IQ tests can function as proxies for social class.
I just don’t agree that they’re tests of middle class knowledge.
I believe that they are tests of accumulated cultural knowledge, which necessarily would make them good proxies of class because greater cultural knowledge is generally held by higher classes.
Well what kind of IQ tests are you speaking about?
A good one would be vocabulary. I guarantee that the middle class understanding of many words does not mirror what you’d find on vocab tests. And that a higher score on a vocab test does not lead to one who has a vocabulary that you’d find in the middle class.
General knowledge would be a great one. An upper class individual may score terribly about any question that uniquely would be known by the middle class. I don’t know, maybe something about Eminem.
When you say ‘middle class’ I literally think of the middle class. Maybe you’re meaning something different.
Put simply, it’s wrong to say IQ tests are tests of middle class culture because IQ just tests measure IQ. However, they are constructed to correlate with indices of the social hierarchy, so they are just another measure of social class that wealth or income alone don’t capture.
I don’t think they’re consciously constructed to correlate with those things. I agree that they DO correlate with them.
And yes, I think they can be used to measure social class. I just don’t believe they are tests OF proximity to a class.
I think they IQ tests IQ, and IQ = accumulated cultural knowledge, and this functional aspect arises from the role accumulated cultural knowledge plays in class (limited, but present).
afro can’t read graphs. the french education system is a farce.
I don’t think they’re consciously constructed to correlate with those things. I agree that they DO correlate with them.
Test items really are included and excluded on the basis of whether performance on these correlates with educational attainment/performance or occupational status. This process is called item analysis.
RR, an Australian aboriginal is never going to score 145+ no matter how you raise him. That’s just a presumption without evidence, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
i agree with afro. and i don’t need “studies”. economic insecurity, abuse, etc…fear is the worst for cognitive development, but some may be less affected if they are able to “escape into their own little world”, become autistic.
to grow in the ways that IQ tests test one must not be constantly distracted by “the real world”. of course if one is so distracted he may grow cognitively in ways IQ tests don’t measure. for example, afro has developed his “game” and his sexual potency rather than developed his “brain”.
“So while I don’t disagree that it’s a perfect indicator, I do think it’s fair to say that it’s reliable. And I don’t disagree that there are many factors, either.”
I see where you are coming from, but I don’t think the one measure is ‘it’ when it comes to social class. You seem to be arguing what HBDers argue re IQ: that it is not a ‘full-on’ proxy for social class, but it’s ‘good enough’ to capture what social class is (the analog being, IQ doesn’t ‘full-on’ test ‘intelligence’ but it’s ‘good enough’ to capture ‘intelligence differences’).
“Yes, but I believe that the Flynn effect more or less follows the rise of big media and several activities that made cultural knowledge more accessible: TV, radio, video games, big newspapers, etc. I think this acquisition is what allowed the middle class to expand.”
I agree, and it’s a point Flynn himself made if I recall correctly.
“I just don’t agree that they’re tests of middle class knowledge.”
What are they tests of? Specific cultural knowledge, right? The items on the test, say the WAIS, conform to the knowledge based, largely, on which class?
“When you say ‘middle class’ I literally think of the middle class. Maybe you’re meaning something different.”
What do you think I mean when I say ‘middle class’? I mean everything that comes along with being middle class. (The sociocognitive structures that come along with it.)
This is relevant:
Dasen and Mishra (2013) show that social class is related to culture in a deeper sense than the physical and social contexts in which the child lives. Families and sub-cultures vary in their exposure to, and usage of, the tools of literacy, numeracy, and other “ways of thinking,” that will prepare children for the culturally more specific content of IQ tests (Cole & Cagigas, 2010; Malda, Van de Vijver, & Temane, 2010). We now also know from brain imaging and other studies, how background experience with specific cultural tools or procedures results in changes in brain networks that differentially prepare individuals for given cognitive tasks (Han & Northoff, 2008; May, 2011; Woollett & Maguire, 2011). Such effects have been taken to explain the importance of social class context to cognitive demands (Hackman, Farah, & Meaney, 2010).
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1002.4245&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Fenoopy,
“RR, an Australian aboriginal is never going to score 145+ no matter how you raise him. That’s just a presumption without evidence, but I’ll believe it when I see it.”
It is a presumption without evidence. Baseless assertion. It doesn’t mean anything to what I am arguing here.
Afro,
“Test items really are included and excluded on the basis of whether performance on these correlates with educational attainment/performance or occupational status. This process is called item analysis.”
Cosigned.
but item analysis is not measured relative to a particular class — and what you’re talking is when they correlate the item to an outcome beyond total score — it’s just relative to ‘better’ outcomes (I don’t know if that’s done particularly often beyond an additional check for reliability). the main correlate they are looking for in item analysis is the relation to the overall score. i.e. ‘to know this means it is very likely to know much of the others’ and vice versa.
so yeah they handout a bunch of items, ensure that certain items are present in the test that a certain percentage don’t get right or that correlate with the total score and then foist the bell curve over the top of that.
the correlation to social outcomes is incidental to the general correlation cultural knowledge has with those outcomes.
i think you can reliably say that between score X and Y, there is SOME kind of difference.
however, quantification of that difference beyond incidence — i.e. what does a 15 point gap mean — is almost meaningless.
“They reflect general knowledge, not ‘general intelligence’”
General knowledge is a reflection of general intelligence.
“Not at all.”
LOL no, Sorry to confuse you I wrote the second paragraph just in case the first one was a erroneous characterization of your views. There are still some misconceptions I would like to highlight.
“From the most recent GWA study, 7 percent of variance is explained which means GWA studies capture social class stratification, not ‘genetic’ IQ differences.”
First, that’s a nonsequiter. Explain how you made that huge leap in logic? Secondly only 1 sample covered 7% of the variance and out of 180 some odd genes, that’s actually a lot, if you assume each loci has a proportionally equal effect on intelligence and that intelligence is a polygenic trait,(possibly in the 1000’s) the variance could be near 100% genetic. As you should know, GWAS only detects associations and says nothing on causation, so a large amount of genes associated with intelligence is expected and does not hinder or improve either side of the false dichotomy. In fact I’m wiling to speculate that most variance is due to epigenetic differences between these genes.
Also, there are ways to correct for possible baises caused by population stratification, which were of course used in the latest study. So that’s another one of your points debunked.
“There was no evidence of residual stratification or confounding leading to an inflation of test statistics (LD Score regression intercept = 0.98).”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-017-0001-5
“The method for controlling for possible autocorrelation stemming
from population structure is based on taking the correlation between
Fst distances for the entire genome (or a random part of it) and distances
(that is, the absolute number of the difference between any
two populations) on the factor for all of the populations. Fst is a measure
of population differentiation due to genetic structure, which is based on
the partitioning of genetic diversity within and between populations.
The vast majority of random SNPs all over the genome are believed
not to be associated with specific phenotypes and therefore not to
have been subject to selection. They rather represent population structure
resulting from random genetic drift, migration, admixture, and
similar processes.”
https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289615001087
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975875/
Well, yes, test designers don’t select items with the intent of measuring social class. But they do it indirectly by considering that their tests only measure intelligence if they positively correlate with some measures of success as commonly understood. So they’re being disingenuous when they claim that those tests “predict” outcomes as if the tests were calibrated on a completely independent variable and that correlation with education or occupational status is not expected when the tests are designed. It’s a very circular process.
Now I’m not saying that the skills that IQ tests measure are irrelevant, they just don’t measure intelligence as something independent from environmental inputs.
I’ve never heard of any IQ test selecting items based on their correlation with real world success. On the original Binet items were selected to discriminate by age because the theory was the brain matures chronologically like the body. They also selected items so that kids judged retarded by their teachers would fail so that’s probably a social class bias.
On the wechsler items & subtests were selected based on how well they discriminated between people who scored high or low on previous IQ tests like the Binet & by how well they correlated with the overall score (as swank said) & how much diagnostic information they provided (since the wechsler doubled as a psychiatric instrument). Subtests that were fun & easy to administer were also preferred
One subtest was dropped for discriminating against women and after wechsler died i think they were able to drop an item that was seen as biased against the ghetto
Richardson explains it here, also mentioning that Jensen agrees with this remark.
Click to access 3398d781543cd0edcf51f181074f4c3ff35b.pdf
“General knowledge is a reflection of general intelligence.”
General knowledge is general knowledge.
“Explain how you made that huge leap in logic? Secondly only 1 sample covered 7% of the variance and out of 180 some odd genes, that’s actually a lot, if you assume each loci has a proportionally equal effect on intelligence and that intelligence is a polygenic trait,(possibly in the 1000’s) the variance could be near 100% genetic.”
Migration history creates correlations history creates correlations between social class and genetic variation which is irrelevant to CA and EA.
Attempts to correct for population structure was addressed by Richardson (2017b):
“The correction method mostly used until recently has been to eliminate the most closely genetically related individuals from current samples, usually by principal components analysis (PCA). But that only detects genetic structures to the level of third or fourth cousins and does not correct for deeper population structure even when it is known to be present [10]. As described above, there are many reasons for thinking that stratification goes much deeper than what is evident in PCA, reflecting genealogies maintained over many generations.”
…
“Another serious problem is that population structure has been actively created
and maintained by social policy, using IQ testing and schooling, the very variables
assumed, in GWAS, to be independent of such structure. Those social dynamics, of course, play havoc with statistical assumptions.
How about the false biological model used (heritability)?
Either way, what Richardson (2017b) wrote on attempts to correct for stratification holds for Hill et al (2018). (What he writes is directly relevant to what Hill et al (2018) used to control for pop stratification; their principal components analysis).
“General knowledge is general knowledge.”
Right….which doesn’t contradict what i just said, so I’m glad you agree.
“genetic variation which is irrelevant to CA and EA.”
Cite me the experiment they set up to determine this.
“Attempts to correct for population structure was addressed by Richardson (2017b):”
No, neither of the quotes that i posted said anything about the PCA. They also used LD regression and Fst distance as proxies for correcting inflation.
“I’m glad you agree.”
‘g’ is a reified abstraction.
“Cite me the experiment they set up to determine this.”
It’s the simple logic of migratory patterns of populations which eventually correlated with social class which are irrelevant to CA and EA.
“neither of the quotes i posted said anything about the PCA.”
Why don’t you actually read Hill et al 2018 and get back to me.
1) Ok? This is relevant how? G is an abstraction with actual biological systems that propagate it’s functioning.
2) So no experiments and subsequently no empirical justification? Seems like another just so story.
3) I already did. PCA of course was used in the 2 studies but was not the only method they incorporated as i already stated.
It’s quite obvious you haven’t read the literature.
1) nope. Correlations arise because the brain is part of the body taking the test.
2) nope. It’s just a just so story. It’s true. Migratory patterns between populations that eventually became social classes have functionally irrelevant genetic differences regarding CA and EA.
3) so then you’d know how they attempted to correct for stratification, which Richardson pointed out was flawed.
4) I have read the literature. GWAS is flawed.
1) The brain controls the body. General intelligence is not a phenomena exclusive to humans either.
2) Well you haven’t provided evidence for the statement so try again.
3) I do, I quoted the main methods they used. PCA wasn’t the only one. So richardson did not address it.
4) Not in the slightest.
1) sure it does; that doesn’t mean the correlations that arise are causal re “IQ”.
2) arguments are evidence.
3) LD score regression is used with PCA.
G is an abstraction with actual biological systems that propagate it’s functioning.
Which systems?
RR,
1) LOL so you think our thoughts and actions are only correlated to our brain?
2) No. Provide me a citation or the claim is wrong. Period.
“3) I know, but he didn’t address the FST method and Richardson is using the classical fallacy of moving goalposts. 3rd and 4th cusins would not confound any deep structures.
“The number of third and fourth cousins a person has varies widely based on individual family structures and the culture of their ancestors. That being said, as Brenna Henn explains in a blog post for 23andMe: “Under a simple model where a family has two to three children, you would have 190 third cousins, 940 fourth cousins and a whopping 4,700 fifth cousins”
https://www.theroot.com/how-much-dna-do-distant-cousins-actually-share-1790877726
Afro,
“Which systems?”
metabolic efficiency, synaptic plasticity, and functional connectivity.
“1) LOL so you think our thoughts and actions are only correlated to our brain?”
Doesn’t mean that the correlations are causal re IQ scores.
“No. Provide me a citation or the claim is wrong. Period.”
Yes. Logical arguments are evidence. Period.
“moving goalposts”
How did he move the goalposts?
“he didn’t address FST method”
Piffer’s paper is useless. You can’t use European GWAS for other populations.
What you cited from The Root doesn’t mean anything to RIchardson’s point.
1) again, IQ testz require thought, so our thoughts are not caused by our brain?
2) Well since you can’t cite me anything the claim is wrong. Better luck next time.
3) by changing the relative level of validation required through subjective justifications.
4) Why not?
5) Distant cousins may as well be stranger and do not confound population structure.
“Which systems?”
metabolic efficiency, synaptic plasticity, and functional connectivity.
Don’t just drop names of processes, explain how they contribute to your score from the cell to the test paper. This is what physiological models look like.
AFRO,
Metabolic efficiency simply means it takes less energy for more intelligent people to solve problems, it’s mostly related reaction time
Synaptic plasticity determines creativity and novel problem solving by switching connections between neurons when novel problems produce dilemmas.
Functional connectivity is the communication between brain regions and is another form of working memory.
None of this is an unified physiological model, plus the efficiency stuff has been refuted recently.
1) Sure they do; that, again, doesn’t show causation.
2) Logical arguments are evidence. better luck next time.
3) So 3rd and 4th cousins won’t confound anything therefore he moved goalposts?
4) Gimme a bit to find the reference. You can’t use European GWAS for other populations. His paper is useless.
5) Deeper population structure. Still doesn’t control for it.
1) That is causation. Our thoughts are caused by our brain.
2) logic is imaginary. Provide empirical experiments.
3) reread the sentence until you get it. Reading comprehension.
4) distant cousins do not confound deeper population strucrure.
1) It’s not causation as in IQ scores depend on the ‘type of brain’ one has.
2) Fuck off with your idiocy. I’ve provided an argument; logical arguments are evidence. If you don’t accept that then I don’t know what to tell you.
“3) reread the sentence until you get it. Reading comprehension.”
Go on.
“4) distant cousins do not confound deeper population strucrure.”
As described above, there are many reasons for thinking that stratification goes much deeper than what is evident in PCA, reflecting genealogies maintained over many generations.”
…
“Another serious problem is that population structure has been actively created
and maintained by social policy, using IQ testing and schooling, the very variables
assumed, in GWAS, to be independent of such structure. Those social dynamics, of course, play havoc with statistical assumptions.
“It’s not causation”
It is.
” Fuck off with your idiocy. ”
Logical arguments for scientific debates require that the premises are based in empirically verified observations. You haven’t actually presented any argument neither have you cited any study to back this argument. We have already discussed Pink Goblins, Anselms’ ontological argument, and do I need to remind you of the syllogism example I used to demonstrate the method’s subjectivity? At this point, you should understand but obviously you don’t or other wise we wouldn’t be having this “argument”. Truth be told, it’s hypocritical to preach skepticism while denying me the right to mine. More evidence of the pseudo intellectualism you and Afro try to delusionally pass off as Epistemic knowledge.
“Go on.”
Go on with what? That was it. You’re so fucking cringey.
4) Humans are extremely homogeneous mammals. Richardson is talking out of his ass and the link I presented demonstrated this.
“It is.”
How?
“hypocritical to preach skepticism while denying me the right to mine.”
It’s illogical to state that logic is “imaginary”. Cite pink goblins, unicorns, any animal you want. It doesn’t make it “imaginary”.
“Go on with what?”
As in elaborate.
“Humans are extremely homogeneous mammals.”
No one ever claimed otherwise. The fact of the matter is, “attempts” to correct for population stratification aren’t up to speed and so GWAS captures social class stratification, not ‘genetic’ IQ differences.
RR,
“How?”
I explained above, Also, PFIT.
“It’s illogical to state that logic is “imaginary”. Cite pink goblins, unicorns, any animal you want. It doesn’t make it “imaginary”.”
Logic is imaginary. Meaning it’s symbolic, it’s an abstraction. I can logically determine that all goblins are pink depsite not providing evidence that goblins exist or even looking for other colors of goblins. You can rationalize anything, that doesn’t make it true. Math is only pure symbolism without a physical context.
“No one ever claimed otherwise.”
Obviously its implied, if he thinks that 4th cousins affect deeper population structure.
Afro,
“None of this is an unified physiological model, plus the efficiency stuff has been refuted recently.”
The unification isn;t neccessary, it’s more than what you have. And no, it was not refuted, the study suffered from range restriction and sampling bias(the relationship disappears in experts). Plus there’s a difference between local connectivity and global connectivity, IQ tests test the latter.
“I explained above.”
It’s not logically possible for psychological traits to be inherited. P-FIT is trash.
“You can rationalize anything, that doesn’t make it true.”
Pink goblins don’t exist. Get the RationalWiki garbage out of your head. They’re dumb and don’t understand basic logic.
“Obviously it’s implied”
Because what he’s saying is true. There’s deeper structure that’s not accounted for.
What’s the logical proof for pink goblins?
“It’s not logically possible for psychological traits to be inherited. ”
I addressed this Pumpkin’s new post. i’ll see you there.
“Pink goblins don’t exist. Get the RationalWiki garbage out of your head. They’re dumb and don’t understand basic logic.”
That’s not where I learned that. Rational wiki knows far more about philosophy then you. Either way my point stands.
“There’s deeper structure that’s not accounted for.”
There isn’t, Humans are too homogeneous.
How does your point stand? What’s the logical proof for pink goblins?
There is deeper population structure.
Do you deny that classes are genetically stratified?
“Why not?”
Differences in allele frequencies, LD structure, genetic drift.
We demonstrate that scores inferred from European GWASs are biased by genetic drift in other populations even when choosing the same causal variants and that biases in any direction are possible and unpredictable.
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30107-6
More:
PRS (polygenic risk scores) for schizophrenia is more strongly associated with ancestry than schizophrenia (huge problem!).
Click to access 287136.full.pdf
Fourth, PGSs created using weights derived from GWAS performed in individuals with European Ancestry generally do not perform as well in individuals with African Ancestry.
…
This work demonstrates that estimation decisions for creating PGSs may have high heterogeneity, less than optimal predictive power, and can give rise to inaccurate inferences about the role of genetic variation in the trait variation across PGSs even within the same study.
Click to access 106062.full.pdf
And here’s more evidence for my claim that even after ‘accounting for’ pop stratification, single gene variants were still associated with place of birth. Hmmm what’s that mean…
Click to access 294876.full.pdf
Piffer’s paper is useless.
“Differences in allele frequencies, LD structure, genetic drift.”
Actually if you read the paper it notes that the consistency and robustness of the relationship makes confound affects insignificant, and of course, the methods used by Piffer to correct for population structure are methodologically sufficient.
“It should be noted that all of the nine alleles are present at significant
frequencies (N5%) among all the five major races (Sub-Saharan African,
South Asian, European, East Asian, American) (see Table 8). Thus, the intelligence
polymorphisms do not appear to be race-specific but were already
present in Homo sapiens prior to the African exodus circa 60–100
Kya. This is even more remarkable, given that the GWAS samples
consisted mostly of individuals of European descent and that none of
the GWAS hits appears to be European-specific polymorphisms
(Table 8). It is thus likely that the vast majority of mutations affecting intelligence
were already present in the ancestral African population and
as humans settled in different parts of the worlds, these polymorphisms
were subject to directional selection pressure, which produced an overall
increase in human intelligence at different rates in different geographical
areas. For the same reason, if non-European intelligence
increasing polymorphisms exist, these are likely to represent a minority
of the additive genetic variation contributing to differences in
intelligence.”
I won’t keep copy and pasting I’ll let you actually read it.
“(huge problem!). single gene variants were still associated with place of birth.”
No, actually it makes enormous sense. Schizophrenia is a hereditary trait obviously involving many genes. You can of course carry some genes for an ailment and not all of them, I’d expect it to correlate more with actual ancestry.
“Piffer’s paper is useless.”
Maybe in your world, where logic doesn’t make sense.
“Actually if you read the paper it notes that the consistency and robustness of the relationship makes confound affects insignificant”
Where? Because they specifically conclude that results are biased by genetic drift. Again, using European GWAS for non-European populations is useless—the schizophrenia PRS further lend credence to the claim.
“It is thus likely that the vast majority of mutations affecting intelligence
were already present in the ancestral African population and
as humans settled in different parts of the worlds, these polymorphisms
were subject to directional selection pressure, which produced an overall
increase in human intelligence at different rates in different geographical
areas.”
Just-so stories.
He sees 9 SNPs, then states it’s “likely” that they “were already present in the ancestral African population”; again, of course, conflating IQ scores and intelligence.
Also you’re aware that Piffer complained and complained until Haier (editor of Intelligence published his paper, right?
It’s also funny how he calls them “cognitive-ability increasing alleles” when no analysis was done to attempt to ascertain causal physiologic pathways that lead to (the supposed) trait variation. Further, I should note that Rietvald et al:
After adjusting the estimated effect sizes of the SNPs (each R2 ∼ 0.0006) for the winner’s curse, we estimate each as R2 ∼ 0.0002 (SI Appendix), or in terms of coefficient magnitude, each additional reference allele for each SNP is associated with an ∼0.02 SD increase in cognitive performance [or 0.3 points on the typical intelligence quotient (IQ) scale].
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/38/13790.full
Amazing… It’s just indicental relationships; they’re not causal and they won’t show to be causal re ‘IQ’ variance. Piffer is wrong.
“No, actually it makes enormous sense. Schizophrenia is a hereditary trait obviously involving many genes. You can of course carry some genes for an ailment and not all of them, I’d expect it to correlate more with actual ancestry.”
Schizophrenia has no evolutionary history as we know it.
Whether it “makes enormous sense” or not, it’s a huge huge problem for GWAS analyses—especially between populations (using only one GWAS cohort—the UK biobank).
My other citations further buttress my point.
“Because they specifically conclude that results are biased by genetic drift. ”
By a small amount, that doesn’t mean you can throw out the results
“Just-so stories.
He sees 9 SNPs, then states it’s “likely” that they “were already present in the ancestral African population”; again, of course, conflating IQ scores and intelligence.”
Not a just so story,the SNPs were found in all populations tested and since African ones are the oldest, it stands by reason to assume that it was present in them first.
“Piffer is wrong.”
Non sequiter.
“Schizophrenia has no evolutionary history as we know it.”
What do you mean by that? Schizophrenia isn’t evolved, but the risk for it is. However it’s probably a side effect of other adaptations like increased intelligence.
“Do you deny that classes are genetically stratified?”
My original question was where is the evidence that this stratification is irrelevant to CA or EA
“By a small amount, that doesn’t mean you can throw out the results”
“Small amount”?
“Not a just so story”
The just-so story is his “directional selection” statement.
“However it’s probably a side effect of other adaptations like increased intelligence.”
How do you know it’s not a byproduct? How are selectionist adaptations not just-so stories?
“My original question was where is the evidence that this stratification is irrelevant to CA or EA”
So you agree classes are genetically stratified.
Genetic variation covaries with social class. This covariation with “IQ” hits occurs due to chance; you cannot logically say they’re “IQ SNPs” until functional analyses are carried out on the target SNPs; correlations aren’t good enough. CA and EA are used to continue said social structure (and genetic structure) through policy. Therefore, these differences are a side effect of social and underlying genetic stratification.
““Small amount”?”
I agree that Genetic drift can cause bottle necks and mimic positive selection but, when this coincides with migratory events into novel environments it’s a given that selection is in fact occurring via founder effect. It’s not Bias.
“The just-so story is his “directional selection” statement.”
Which was?
“CA and EA are used to continue said social structure (and genetic structure) through policy. Therefore, these differences are a side effect of social and underlying genetic stratification.”
You’re reaching again, Social class and social policy both are heavily influenced by Intelligence. How could this stratification be a confound if the relationship has been known for decades?
“How do you know it’s not a byproduct? How are selectionist adaptations not just-so stories?”
I just said it was a byproduct. This is one study that tried to confirm it:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080804222910.htm
“when this coincides with migratory events into novel environments it’s a given that selection is in fact occurring via founder effect. It’s not Bias.”
There were these teeny tiny founder effects in Britain for the migratory patterns that arose from social class stratification? Sure it’s bias, it’s irrelevant genetic variation that’s propped up as ‘genetic intelligence’ differences but since the tests are constructed on the basis of social class, and different social classes experience different things, it’s a forgone conclusion there will be genetic differences between classes but which would be irrelevant to CA and EA.
“Which was?”
as humans settled in different parts of the worlds, these polymorphisms
were subject to directional selection pressure, which produced an overall
increase in human intelligence at different rates in different geographical
areas. For the same reason, if non-European intelligence increasing polymorphisms exist, these are likely to represent a minority of the additive genetic variation contributing to differences in intelligence
And, again, the point stands on using European GWAS on non-European samples. Haworth et al say:
“..the true impact of biases within this sample is larger than these results suggest…analysis produced associations between GRS and complex traits even in the absence of direct genetic effects on biology.. (also) that predictions based on GRS are capable of inducing associations where there is little or no direct effect”.
“How could this stratification be a confound if the relationship has been known for decades?”
How is that “reaching”? The stratification causes uncorrected problems when it comes to GWA studies.
“I just said it was a byproduct”
How does the observation disconfirm an adaptationist hypothesis?
“There were these teeny tiny founder effects in Britain for the migratory patterns that arose from social class stratification?”
I thought you were arguing that genetic drift from the major OOA event around 70,000 years ago? Are we not discussing ‘allele surfing’?
“And, again, the point stands on using European GWAS on non-European samples. Haworth et al say:”
I fail to see where the Ad hoc was, be more specific.
How does your second quote relate to possible bias of using European gwas on non european samples? How are you reconciling this with Human homogeneity?
“The stratification causes uncorrected problems when it comes to GWA studies.”
Like what?
“How does the observation disconfirm an adaptationist hypothesis?”
“e found that 6 of the 22 positively selected biological processes are significantly enriched in genes differentially expressed in schizophrenia (Wilcoxon rank sum test, p < 0.03, false discovery rate (FDR) = 11%), while only 0.7 would be expected to show such an enrichment by chance (Figure 1; Table S2 in Additional data file 1; Materials and methods). Strikingly, all six of these biological processes are related to energy metabolism. This is highly unexpected, given that there were only 7 biological processes containing genes involved in energy metabolism among the 22 positively selected categories "
"Further, there are indications of positive selection for genes involved in energy metabolism in anthropoid primates and humans, in terms of amino acid composition [24] and elevated expression levels in brain [13], respectively. Recently, positive selection during human evolution was also shown to target the promoters of genes involved in glucose metabolism – the main source of energy for the brain [25].
At the same time, there is growing evidence that brain energy metabolism is altered in neuropsychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia, in which human-specific cognitive abilities are impaired. Deficits in blood flow in the prefrontal cortex are consistently reported in schizophrenia patients relative to controls, particularly when performing complex cognitive tasks [26, 27]. Furthermore, the altered metabolic activity correlates with the severity of negative symptoms and cognitive deficits [28]. Concordantly, several studies have identified down-regulation of numerous genes involved in energy metabolism in the schizophrenia post mortem brain"
Could you possibly think of any beneficial adapations of schizophrenia? Especially seeing how it affects cognition detrimentally.
“I thought you were arguing that genetic drift from the major OOA event around 70,000 years ago? Are we not discussing ‘allele surfing’?”
I thought we were discussing pop stratification?
“I fail to see where the Ad hoc was, be more specific.”
What’s the independent verifier for his claim?
“How does your second quote relate to possible bias of using European gwas on non european samples? How are you reconciling this with Human homogeneity?”
GRS are derived from GWA studies. It’s self-explanatory, effects arose when there were none. You can’t use European GWAS on non-European samples and the papers I have provided are proof of that.
“Like what?”
Because PCA doesn’t correct for deeper population structure which, again, the papers provided show.
“Could you possibly think of any beneficial adapations of schizophrenia? Especially seeing how it affects cognition detrimentally.”
No because people with schiz have low reproduction rates. most people diagnosed with schizophrenia have no family history of the illness and there is evidence it can’t be reliably identified:
Another key issue is whether “schizophrenia” is a valid disorder that can be reliably identified. … Although a disorder must be valid in addition to being reliable, reliability must be established before determining whether a diagnosis is valid.
In the second part of the study, psychiatric staff members at one hospital were asked to identify one or more members at one hospital where asked to identify one or more pseudopatients who, they were told, would arrive during the next three months. The staff suspected many individuals as being pseudopatients, but in fact none had been sent. Rosenhaun concluded that “it is clear that we cannot distinguish the sane from the insane in psychiatric hospitals.” …the results supported the views of psychiatry’s critics, who argued that schizophrenia is a label for deviant behavior that cannot be easily recognized by psychiatric professionals, and has little if any validity.
Quotes from Jay Joseph’s new book Schizophrenia and Genetics: The End of an Illusion.
“I thought we were discussing pop stratification?”
You stated: “they specifically conclude that results are biased by genetic drift.”
This implies you are talking about ‘allele surfing’.
“What’s the independent verifier for his claim?”
This data coincides with academic scores and IQ tests, therefore it is independently verified by other measures. Now answer my question.
“You can’t use European GWAS on non-European samples and the papers I have provided are proof of that.”
They did no such thing. How could it confound the results when genetic variation is insignificant between races?
“No because people with schiz have low reproduction rates.”
Exactly, there is an association between creativity and schizophrenia, but I doubt the two are mutually inclusive in every variation. Most deleterious forms of schizophrenia have been selected against.
“there is evidence it can’t be reliably identified:”
This is also outdated information. You need to expand your pool of researchers. I’d suggest looking at studies in scientific journals instead of just reading books. Anyway:
“The findings also explain a mystery that has puzzled psychiatrists and evolutionary geneticists alike: if people with schizophrenia have, on average, fewer children than people without the disorder, why does schizophrenia still affect so many people?
Dr James Walters, from Cardiff University, who led the study, explains: “Many of the genetic variants that confer risk to schizophrenia are relatively common in the population, and many scientists would have expected them to be selected against by natural selection, become rare and eventually disappear from the population.
“Many theories have emerged to explain this. One of these is that genetic risk for schizophrenia must have, or have had in the past, a positive effect to balance against the negative ones. We did not find any evidence for a so-called ‘positive selection’ but instead found that many gene variants linked to schizophrenia reside in regions of the genome in which natural selection is not very effective in the first place. Also, most of them do not have individually serious effects, and this makes them less likely to be selected, either for or against.””
This is also independent verification for the other study I presented showing glucose metabolism and it’s association with schizophrenia.
“This implies you are talking about ‘allele surfing’.”
Which is why European GWAS aren’t useful for non-European populations. The three papers I cited above corrobated what Richardson wrote.
“This data coincides with academic scores and IQ tests, therefore it is independently verified by other measures. Now answer my question.”
How’s that independent verification?
“They did no such thing. How could it confound the results when genetic variation is insignificant between races?”
Please elaborate. The papers I cited, and explained, show why.
How’s it outdated information? What do you think an independent verifier is?
Also:
Call to end schizophrenia GWA studies because, as usual with GWA studies, low variance explained:
Despite the very low frequency of 22q11.2DS among individuals meeting criteria for schizophrenia, Goes and Sawa (2017) characterize this line of research as
identifying one of “the strongest genetic risk factors for schizophrenia” even though it occurs in only 0.3% of cases. Perhaps, it is time to abandon GWAS in schizophrenia if a genetic abnormality occurring in 0.3% of cases provides one of the strongest genetic risk factors for schizophrenia identified to date.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17522439.2018.1439520?src=recsys
The CTM does not provide any valid information for schizophrenia; the EEA is false:
When identical twins are more similar on the most etiologically relevant social exposures for schizophrenia, it is irrational to continue with the notion that the EEA is valid for this disorder. Since the EEA is “crucial to everything that follows from twin research,” (79) (p. 155) its systematic violation for core social exposures implies that classical twin studies cannot provide any valid indication of genomic effects on schizophrenia and should be abandoned.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411885/
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/UGzI42waTT3mggfgZt9b/full
Of course, all of these ‘gene-finding studies’ explain a low percentage of variance, it never fails. GWA studies need to end; heritability studies need to end. It’s over. Schizophrenia isn’t due to genetics; it isn’t due to GxE (see Fosse, Joseph and Richardson, 2015), what causes schizophrenia are environmental and social factors.
Why can’t they ‘find genes’? Because 1) the EEA is false and strongly biases heritability estimates upwards, 2) heritability estimates assume a false and outmoded model of the gene, and 3) ‘genes for’ schizophrenia do not exist. Try reading Jay Joseph’s new book and get back to me.
rr’s ”arguments” are just so- directly-declared–absolute truths well dressed in hyper-vague conclusive statements..
why PP** tell me…
”what causes schizophrenia are environmental and social factors.”
EXPLAIN, EXEMPLIFY this…
with YOUR OWN WORDS.
Do you know what is ”exemplify” isn’t**
do it…
how a ”social factor” [autist hyper-abstract way to say things] can make some people pill*
“how a ”social factor” [autist hyper-abstract way to say things]”
haha
Expecting your exemplifications in your own words…
What is the social factor which cause anti-semitism rr*
Genes
“Which is why European GWAS aren’t useful for non-European populations. ”
No, I already addressed this:
“I agree that Genetic drift can cause bottle necks and mimic positive selection but, when this coincides with migratory events into novel environments it’s a given that selection is in fact occurring via founder effect. It’s not Bias.”
“How’s that independent verification?”
Piffer found genomic discrepancies between populations that were associated with brain function, this is corroborated by IQ and other educational and Intellectual measurements.
You do realize what makes a hypothesis ad hoc is is whether the explanation is speculative or not? That’s what is meant as independent verification, of course falsifiability is needed as well.
“Call to end schizophrenia GWA studies because, as usual with GWA studies, low variance explained:what causes schizophrenia are environmental and social factors. It’s over. Schizophrenia isn’t due to genetics Why can’t they ‘find genes’?”
This is what I mean by outdated information: http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc5918692
“our finding that schizophrenia risk variants that persist at common allele frequencies are enriched in LoF-intolerant genes might appear counterintuitive. However, new evidence presented here suggests that this can be reconciled by BGS, which is a consequence of purifying selection in regions of low recombination45,46. In such regions, recurrent selection against deleterious variants causes haplotypes to be removed from the gene pool, which reduces genetic diversity in a manner equivalent to a reduction in effective population size47. This in turn impairs the efficiency of the selection process, allowing alleles with small deleterious effects to rise in frequency by drift48. Such a consequence of purifying selection has been shown to be compatible with the genomic architecture of complex human traits49 and to influence phenotypes in model organisms50. We have explicitly modeled this effect (both theoretically and via simulations; Supplementary Note) and provide strong evidence for the feasibility of this effect as explanatory for the effect sizes seen for common alleles in schizophrenia.
We did not find enrichment for any measure of positive selection or Neanderthal introgression. A recent study explained a negative correlation between schizophrenia associations and metrics indicative of a Neanderthal selective sweep as evidence for positive selection or polygenic adaptation in schizophrenia12. We do not find any significant correlation in our model, which addresses the contribution of BGS, and hence our results are not consistent with large contributions of positive selection to the genetic architecture of schizophrenia (Table 1). Indeed, positive selection is not widespread in humans, as reported by other studies that explicitly considered or accounted for BGS28,51. Polygenic adaptation, the co-occurrence of many subtle allele frequency shifts at loci influencing complex traits52, remains an intriguing possibility but has not been implicated in psychiatric phenotypes, including schizophrenia, in recent analyse”
This study found 30% of the variance, which is enormous. You’re not saying anything new, sensory deprivation can cause schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is not genetic, the risk for it is, reading comprehension is important.Tthis is another point that reinforces the idea that Schizophrenia is a byproduct of increased intelligence. Essentially the study demonstrated that the reason Schizophrenia is not prevalent in families and only small percentages of variance have been found, is because most genes for schizophrenia coincide with ones for normal cognition, this further verifies that schizophrenia is a spandrel of increased intellect.
“the EEA is false: Try reading Jay Joseph’s new book and get back to me.1) the EEA is false and strongly biases heritability estimates upwards, 2) heritability estimates assume a false and outmoded model of the gene”
Speaking of jay joseph the guy is a complete hack. His entire argument against Barnes, was an appeal to emotion, strawmen and circular reasoning.
For example: “Barnes and colleagues assumed an important role for genetics as a means of concluding in favor of the very same thing, and like supporters of Argument A, their conclusion was based on illogical circular reasoning ”
This is false Barnes did speculate, but he was not being circular His premise was that human mates have genetic similarity, the conclusion was that Heritability estimates are bias. The null hypothesis is not ” humans carry no genes predisposing them to criminality or ASB”, so jay is being circular.
“The results of these EEA-test studies strongly suggest that the assumption is false.”
Strawman. barnes goal was not to demonstrate the validity of the assumption but to show that the effect of bias, was only modest.
“The EEA debate has nothing to do with “algebra,” and has everything to do with the actual lives and experiences of people, or more specifically, the childhood and adult social and familial environments of twins, and the levels of identity confusion and attachment they experience.”
Appeal to emotion. He needs to provide real arguments for the invalidity of the mathematical procedures used by barnes.
“No, I already addressed this:”
No you didn’t. Those citations corroborated Richardson. And the schizo PRS study is a huge blow.
“Piffer found genomic discrepancies between populations that were associated with brain function, this is corroborated by IQ and other educational and Intellectual measurements.”
Independent verification is the sucessful prediction of novel facts not known before the generation of the hypothesis. Piffer’s paper is a fudge; either way it’s only 9 SNPs and, again, can’t use European GWAS on non-European populations.
“You do realize what makes a hypothesis ad hoc is is whether the explanation is speculative or not?”
Ad hoc hypotheses are hypotheses that cannot be independently verified.
“This is what I mean by outdated information”
So they conclude that the LoF mutations are subject to strong negative selection, removed from the population, and the subsequent loss of genetic diversity elevates the frequency of the alleles?
PLI > .9?
“This is false Barnes did speculate, but he was not being circular His premise was that human mates have genetic similarity”
Yes he was being circular. Assuming that genes predispose people to criminality to cause the downward bias in heritability estimates due to the assortative mating assumption.
Circular reasoning isn’t fallacious?
Twin studies measure the greater environmental similarity of MZ twins.
“The null hypothesis is not ” humans carry no genes predisposing them to criminality or ASB””
What’s the null hypothesis?
And your accusation of ‘circularity’ on Joseph et al is ridiculous.
“Strawman. barnes goal was not to demonstrate the validity of the assumption but to show that the effect of bias, was only modest.”
Where’s the “strawman” in their statement?
“Appeal to emotion. He needs to provide real arguments for the invalidity of the mathematical procedures used by barnes.”
It’s not an appeal to emotion. ‘Real arguments’ provided here:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/comment/181404#comment-181404
The EEA has been proved false already with twin researchers agreeing that MZ twins get treated more alike than DZ twins. But to save the EEA, they assume that due to genetic similarity they will construct environments leading to more similar phenotypes when treatment etc (as noted above) can account for the associations.
So the EEA is false and the ad hoc assumptions proposed to save it are false; their method measures MZ twins’ greater environmental similarity. What do twin researchers have left?
———————————————————–
The biological model that heritability studies are based on is not sound.
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/S1057-629020150000016002
Also my statement re schizophrenia and the EEA was in reference to Fosse, Joseph and Richardson (2015) not Joseph et al (2015) in this particular instance.
rr is a good example about how white people are mostly high functioning idiots, as well most human populations.
Why respond to me if you never say anything of value?
“No you didn’t.”
You said you were discussing allele surfing. Genetic drift can confound GWAS because it can mimic hits for positive selection. Migrations into novel environments usually cause bottle necks which is followed by positive selection for traits that benefit the organism in the new ecological system. Therefore in this context(human OOA event), genetic drift is not a confound, but instead coincides with positive selection.
“Piffer’s paper is a fudge”
Piffer’s paper was a novel prediction extrapolated from IQ discrepancies between populations.
“So they conclude that the LoF mutations are subject to strong negative selection, removed from the population, and the subsequent loss of genetic diversity elevates the frequency of the alleles?”
Essentially what the paper was stating, was that most Genes for Schizophrenia are “hiding” with genes for normal cognitive development. This explains why such little variance has been found, and why Schizophrenia persists, despite negative selection for it. This independently verifies the study I posted on schizophrenia being a spandral not a beneficial adaptation, because it’s emergence coincides with increased cognitive functions. The new Study is also independently verified by this one: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/29167880
“For the first time to date, a study shows a polygenic-risk gradient across schizophrenia and BD, indexed by the occurrence and level of mood-incongruent psychotic symptoms.”
“Ad hoc hypotheses are hypotheses that cannot be independently verified”
How does that disagree with my statement? I hold the Logical view, not the heuristic one, but most of the links I’ve cited(especially the ones on schizophrenia) are all novel.
“Yes he was being circular.”
No, his premise was not the same as his conclusion. I agree that it was a speculative assumption. If we disregard that particular method, it actually still works against Joseph because it means there is no confound due to assortative mating.
“your accusation of ‘circularity’ on Joseph et al is ridiculous.
It’s actually very accurate. He accused barnes of making a genetic assumption based on the assumption that GWAS cannot accurately predict genomic association, he based the handwaving of their method on this premise and then restated his main premise: that GWAS cannot accurately predict genomic association.
“Where’s the “strawman” in their statement?”
They are assuming that barnes’ goal was to vindicate the EEA.
“‘Real arguments’ provided here:”
This was made before Barnes et al 2014. Try again.
“Also my statement re schizophrenia and the EEA was in reference to Fosse, Joseph and Richardson (2015) not Joseph et al (2015) in this particular instance.”
That study is also outdated: https://humanvarieties.org/2016/02/28/equal-environments-assumption-and-sex-differences/
“Therefore in this context(human OOA event), genetic drift is not a confound, but instead coincides with positive selection.”
Genetic drift confounds the association. How does it coincide with “positive selection”? Selection for what? All adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories.
“Piffer’s paper was a novel prediction extrapolated from IQ discrepancies between populations.”
How? It’s literally a coincidence. Richard Haier wouldn’t publish the paper, then Piffer kept complaining and complaining until it was finally published.
“This independently verifies the study I posted on schizophrenia being a spandral not a beneficial adaptation, because it’s emergence coincides with increased cognitive functions”
You’ve yet to explain *which observation would disconfirm either or hypothesis*, the byproduct explanation is a just-so story too because it can’t be independently verified because we don’t know the conditions of the OEE. How does that observation disconfirm the opposite hypothesis and how do we know the conditions of the OEE?
PLI > .9?
“How does that disagree with my statement?”
P3.
“No, his premise was not the same as his conclusion”
Speculated in the premise that genetic similarity did it, then concluded genes, circular.
“It’s actually very accurate”
Provide the quote.
“They are assuming that barnes’ goal was to vindicate the EEA.”
How is making the claim that “The results of these EEA-test studies strongly suggest that the assumption is false” a strawman?
“This was made before Barnes et al 2014. Try again.”
And no twin researchers have addressed the arguments put forth by Richardson and Joseph.
The age of the arguments are irrelevant.
“That study is also outdated”
This is a blog article, (not peer reviewed) and where does it discuss schizophrenia and the EEA?
All adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories.
So you admit the vitamin D hypothesis is a just-so story?
It’s been independently verified.
Recall that a just-so story is an ad hoc hypothesis and ad hoc hypotheses are hypotheses that cannot be independently verified of the data it attempts to explain. The VDH made a successful prediction of a novel fact. Therefore the VDH is not a just-so story.
P1) To test any EP claim you need to de-confound traits that are coextensive in the OEE.
P2) To test the claim, one needs a time machine.
P3) Time machines don’t exist.
C) Therefore the evolutionary claims are not testable.
P1) The hypothesis that trait X is a byproduct is falsifiable if and only if an observation exists by which we can verify that trait X moved to fixation in virtue of being a byproduct of “intelligence” and not in virtue of it being an adaptation.
P2) No such observation exists (not only for evolutionary schizophrenia stories, but all EP hypotheses).
C) Therefore byproduct and adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories.
You realize VDH is an adaptionist hypothesis right?
You realize that ad hoc hypotheses cannot be independently verified right? The VDH has been independently verified.
Of course I realize that it’s an adaptationist hypothesis, which has been successfully defended. It has been independently verified. It’s therefore not a just-so story.
But you wrote:
“Therefore byproduct and adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories”
So i assume you meant psychology byproduct and adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories
I’ll discuss it further when you write the skin colour article
Naturally.
The critique holds for all selectionist stories that are not independently verified
All in all a trait competition needs to be run in the OEE to test both hypotheses (byproduct/adaption). To be able to observe it one needs a time machine. Time machines don’t exist. Therefore any EP adaptationist/byproduct stories are inherently ad hoc. Which means they’re just-so stories, hypotheses that cannot be independently verified.
Melo you can cite every single scientific paper ever. This is a conceptual objection which has yet to be addressed. No, probabilistic causation doesn’t show whether or not trait X is a byproduct or adaptation.
“Genetic drift confounds the association. How does it coincide with “positive selection”?
Via the Founder effect after migrations into novel territory.
“Selection for what? ”
In Piffer’s case, increased intelligence
“How?”
Racial IQ discrepancies is an observable phenomenon. Piffer Showed that genes associated with cognitive function fit the pattern contemporary to divergence dates between Macro races.
“It’s literally a coincidence. Richard Haier wouldn’t publish the paper, then Piffer kept complaining and complaining until it was finally published.”
How is it a coincidence? I don’t care how stupid or annoying a couple searchers are, I’m worried about the methodology concerning their experiments.
“PLI > .9?”
What are you asking? Do you not know what that means?:
“Recent studies have shown that mutation-intolerant genes capture much of the rare variant architecture of neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism, intellectual disability and developmental delay, as well as schizophrenia16–19. Here we show that, for schizophrenia, this also holds for common variation. Using gene set analysis in MAGMA20, loss-of-function (LoF)- intolerant genes (n = 3,230) as defined by the Exome Aggregation Consortium (ExAC)21 using their gene-level constraint metric (pLI ≥ 0.9), were enriched for common variant associations with schizophrenia in comparison with all other annotated genes (P = 4.1 × 10−16).”
“Many of you perform trio exome sequencing to detect de novo mutations in an affected individual. This is for a good reason, as we all know that the probability of a coding DNM to be disease-causing is very high. However, sometimes there are more than a single loss-of-function DNM in an exome, or the gene in which it occurs is simple not related to any disease yet. We looked over the shoulder of experts that are facing such a case. They usually go through the ExAc cohort data and count how many LoF variants they can find in such a gene. Now, there is even a much more elegant way to do so. The ExAc consortium computed a score, called pLI, that indicates the probability that a gene is intolarent to a loss of function mutation. The statistical framework behind this score is explained in detail by Samocha, et al. Basically, the depature for a certain mutational class from the expectation is quantified. The figure below shows the distribution of z-scores for synonymous (gray), missense (orange), and protein-truncating, PTV (red) mutations in about 18,000 genes. There is a considerable right-shift in the distribution of missense and PTVs, indicating that more genes are intolarent to these classes of mutations. The proportion of genes that are very likely intolerant of loss-of-function variation (pLI ≥ 0.9) is highest for ClinGen haploinsufficient genes, and stratifies by the severity and age of onset of the haploinsufficient phenotype.”
http://blog.gene-talk.de/?p=639
“P3.”
Which was?
“Speculated in the premise that genetic similarity did it, then concluded genes, circular.”
….no, his conclusion was that heritability estimates were bias, but not significantly enough to warrant being ‘thrown out’.
“Provide the quote.”
“if the null hypothesis stating that humans carry no genes predisposing them to criminality or ASB is true, then there is no assortative mating bias because mating patterns would have no genetic influence on these behaviors, and any observed MZ-DZ correlational differences would be caused entirely by non-genetic factors.”
“How is making the claim that “The results of these EEA-test studies strongly suggest that the assumption is false” a strawman?”
Barnes’ only goal was to test the EEA hypothesis, and he concluded that it was in fact bias. The statement is nonsensical in relation Barnes’ point.
“And no twin researchers have addressed the arguments put forth by Richardson and Joseph.
The age of the arguments are irrelevant.”
That’s because they consistently use fallacies as I have demonstrated. Age does matter, newer studies tend to have a more refined methodology
“This is a blog article, (not peer reviewed)”
Then peer review it, it should be easy to refute, assuming you actually understand the material
“and where does it discuss schizophrenia and the EEA?”
This wasn’t discussing Schizophrenia but the title is literally:
“Equal Environments Assumption and Sex Differences”
So you obviously didn’t even read it.
“Melo you can cite every single scientific paper ever. This is a conceptual objection which has yet to be addressed. No, probabilistic causation doesn’t show whether or not trait X is a byproduct or adaptation.”
Actually it does. A time machine is needed because of the uncertainty of the adaptionist theory, this makes in indeterminsitic. Uncertainty=/= invalidity, Propensity probability is the weighing of rival hypothesis’ empirical evidence.
So you finally admit you’re bias? Why is psychology ‘special’? Both the VDH and EPH technically need time machines by your fucked logic. Non EP adaptionist theories are not magically exempt. So disregarding you nonsensical statements, my point stands: Schizophrenia is a spandrel of increased cognitive functioning.
“Via the Founder effect after migrations into novel territory.”
Doesn’t mean said 9 alleles cause ‘IQ’.
“In Piffer’s case, increased intelligence”
All adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories if they cannot be independently verified.
“How is it a coincidence”
It’s only 9 SNPs. He didn’t show they were causal to ‘IQ’.
“What are you asking? Do you not know what that means?”
See supp figure 5.if their model were right you’d see pLI with peak away from 1.0 along with a smooth decrease below it. But the effect is at pLI > .9 with no effect below it.
“Which was?”
P1) A just-so story is an ad-hoc hypothesis; an ad-hoc hypothesis is a hypothesis that is not independently verified
P2) The hypothesis that trait X is an adaptation is independently verified if and only if it sucessfully predicts a novel fact (an observation that was not used in the construction of the hypothesis and would be expected if the trait were an adaptation and unexpected if the trait were a byproduct).
P3) No prediction of this nature is possible because the hypothesis that trait X is an adaptation is underdetermined by all possible observations (meaning there are no hallmarks of adaptation).
P4) EP hypotheses cannot be independently verified (they are inherently ad-hoc)
C) Therefore EP hypotheses are just-so stories.
P3. You need a time machine to observe. They don’t exist. You didn’t rebut this argument. What observation could disconfirm? The OEE is not known.
Thej right after, Joseph wrote al 2015 write:
“In order for Barnes and colleagues to be able to claim that assortative (non-random) mating patterns “downwardly bias heritability estimates” for criminality and ASB, they had to assume in advance that there are genes predisposing people for criminality and ASB. In other words, Barnes and colleagues assumed an important role for genetics as a means of concluding in favor of the very same thing”
“Barnes’ only goal was to test the EEA hypothesis, and he concluded that it was in fact bias. The statement is nonsensical in relation Barnes’ point.”
That’s not the point. The point was that according to Joseph et al 2015 the tests of the EEA in those studies showed it to be false. Not a strawman.
“That’s because they consistently use fallacies as I have demonstrated. Age does matter, newer studies tend to have a more refined methodology”
Where do Richardson and Joseph use fallacies in their response? The arguments they made about MZ twin similarity being due to similar treatment are sound.
“Then peer review it, it should be easy to refute, assuming you actually understand the material”
We’ve discussed in the past. It’s not relevant to schizophrenia.
“This wasn’t discussing Schizophrenia”
So it’s not relevant. Yes I did read it, remember they need to show Argument B is sound, the trait-relevant argument.
“Actually it does. A time machine is needed because of the uncertainty of the adaptionist theory, this makes in indeterminsitic. Uncertainty=/= invalidity, Propensity probability is the weighing of rival hypothesis’ empirical evidence.”
Actually it doesn’t. P2 had the conditional” if and only if, iff”. No observation could confirm or disconfirm.
“So you finally admit you’re bias?”
What “bias”? Why do you accuse me of “bias”? Can we not converse like two adults without the childish BS?
“Both the VDH and EPH technically need time machines by your fucked logic.”
VDH has made a successful prediction of a novel fact.
“Non EP adaptionist theories are not magically exempt. So disregarding you nonsensical statements, my point stands: Schizophrenia is a spandrel of increased cognitive functioning.”
Logical arguments aren’t “nonsensical *statements*”. I never said non-EP adaptionist theories are magically exempt. If the adaptationist hypothesis in question isn’t independently verified then it’s a just-so story. Wp hypotheses are inherently ad hoc which means they cannot be independently verified.
“Doesn’t mean said 9 alleles cause ‘IQ’.”
Whatever, I made my point.
“All adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories if they cannot be independently verified.”
It wasn’t an adaptionist Hypothesis.
“if their model were right you’d see pLI with peak away from 1.0 along with a smooth decrease below it. But the effect is at pLI > .9 with no effect below it.”
Why? pLI scores closer to one are more likely to cause diseases.
“You need a time machine to observe.”
No we don’t, historical scientists use common cause explanations and propensity probability and this is justified by asymmetrical causation
https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1130/2013.2502(01)
“In other words, Barnes and colleagues assumed an important role for genetics as a means of concluding in favor of the very same thing”
No they didn’t the conclusion was completely different from the premise.
“The point was that according to Joseph et al 2015 the tests of the EEA in those studies showed it to be false. Not a strawman.”
And they were dierectly addressing Barnes. It’s a strawman.
“The arguments they made about MZ twin similarity being due to similar treatment are sound.”
Barnes never said it wasn’t.
“So it’s not relevant.”
It’s relevant to EEA.
“No observation could confirm or disconfirm.”
They reach confirmation through probability, the mathematical models used in some of my citations is obviously a set of examples on how one could go about making the distinction.
“The question is why should we believe that the principle of the common cause is true? The answer is because there are compelling empirical reasons for believing that localized events in our universe are causally connected in time in an asymmetry manner; this thesis is known as the “asymmetry of overdetermination” (Lewis, 1979). According to the asymmetry of overdetermination, most local events evidentially overdetermine their past causes (because the latter typically leave numerous and diverse effects) and underdetermine their future effects (because they rarely constitute the total cause of an effect). As an illustration consider an explosive volcanic eruption. Extensive deposits of ash, pyroclastic debris, masses of andesitic or rhyolitic magma, and a large crater are produced. Inferring that the eruption occurred after the fact does not require recovering it all. Any one of an enormous number of remarkably small subcollections will do. This helps to explain why volcanologists can confi dently infer the occurrence of a massive caldera-forming eruption 2.1 Ma in what is now Yellowstone National Park. In stark contrast, inferring the occurrence of near future events such as the next eruption of Mount Vesuvius is much more diffi cult. For there are many causally relevant conditions in the absence of which an eruption won’t occur, and not all of these conditions are well understood. This makes it diffi cult to infer even an imminent volcanic eruption with any degree of confidence, which brings us to the other side of the asymmetry of overdetermination: Most localized events, e.g., magma rising in a volcanic chamber, do not even determine, let alone overdetermine, their future effects because they rarely constitute the total cause of an effect. Put provocatively, the present does not contain traces (records) of future events as it does of past events. Viewed from this perspective the historical sciences have an advantage over classical experimental science.”
Historical science(including evolution) attempts to explain not predict. They can predict but, they can’t with absolute certainty. While all hypothesis’ have to be falsifiable, falsification in the classical sense is not used in science. Scientists modify failed hypothesis’ they don’t throw them out. Ad hoc is inherent in all of science, this is where independent verification and modification come in.
As you know, independent verification is the prediction of novel facts whereas, modification is the tweaking of assumptions to improve the original hypothesis. Historical science utulizies the latter. let’s use CWT as an Example:
Say my hypothesis is that Colder winters selected for higher IQ. Now let’s say I create an experiment and the results show a high confidence but, there are anomalies(like the inuit). I can modify this theory, and let’s say I add populations size as a factor, if the correlation shoots up this confirms my theory. Now to distinguish which factor has the higher level of causailty i would just need to compare the two.
To distinguish between adaptionist and by product traits, is a little more difficult, but because of genomic data, it is possible, like I’ve shown with my links on schizophrenia.
“I never said non-EP adaptionist theories are magically exempt. If the adaptationist hypothesis in question isn’t independently verified then it’s a just-so story. Wp hypotheses are inherently ad hoc which means they cannot be independently verified.”
Do you mean cannot as in “would never” or “have not”?
“It wasn’t an adaptionist Hypothesis.”
Same holds for byproduct explanations. Either way, is this an EP hypothesis?
“Why? pLI scores closer to one are more likely to cause diseases.”
I explained why.
“No we don’t, historical scientists use common cause explanations and propensity probability and this is justified by asymmetrical causation”
Yes, we do. Because the hypothesis that trait X is an adaptation/byproduct is underdetermined by all other possible observations.
“No they didn’t the conclusion was completely different from the premise.”
Assuming the importance of genes in the premise then again in the conclusion isn’t circular?
“They reach confirmation through probability, the mathematical models used in some of my citations is obviously a set of examples on how one could go about making the distinction.”
So it’s not an observation.
“And they were dierectly addressing Barnes. It’s a strawman.”
It really is not. Stating that their test results show it to be false is not a “strawman”.
“It’s relevant to EEA.”
It’s false. All auxiliary hypotheses propped up to save it are false. Argument A is circular. Argument B, no one has yet to shown any trait-relevant environments.
Have any twin researchers shown exclusive trait-relevant factors that contribute to the observations seen in MZ/DZ twins? Both argument forms make genetic interpretations invalid. Why do you keep defending fallacious arguments?
Is that schizophrenia wall o’ text an EP hypothesis?
“To distinguish between adaptionist and by product traits, is a little more difficult, but because of genomic data, it is possible, like I’ve shown with my links on schizophrenia.”
It’s not possible; you didn’t provide a counterargument to my argument; you just pasted blocks of text as if its a response to the argument. No empirical data can de-confound adaptations from byproducts. Again, this is not an empirical question. So stop thinking you can quote blocks of text to attempt to rebut the arguments I am providing here. My arguments still stand.
“To distinguish between adaptionist and by product traits, is a little more difficult, but because of genomic data, it is possible, like I’ve shown with my links on schizophrenia.”
It’s not possible because it is underdetermined by all possible observations.
“Do you mean cannot as in “would never” or “have not”?”
“would never” meaning “cannot”, since that’s the definition of ad-hoc hypothesis in philosophy—a hypothesis that cannot be independently verified of the data it purports to explain.
“I explained why.”
No, you stated that I ‘should’ see some kind of pattern regarding the pLi score.You never explained why I should see this pattern.
“Because the hypothesis that trait X is an adaptation/byproduct is underdetermined by all other possible observations.”
Lol what? Actually that’s wrong, the past is over-determined by it’s present traces.
“Assuming the importance of genes in the premise then again in the conclusion isn’t circular?”
The conclusion was not ‘assuming the importance of genes’ you illiterate fuck.
“So it’s not an observation.”
Of course it was, the mathematical models were based in genomic data.
“It really is not.”
It really is. The paragraph was directly in response to barnes ‘argument a’. SO if it actually wasn’t then it was still a redundant statement, that had no bearing on the debate whatsoever.
“no one has yet to shown any trait-relevant environments.”
Hahaha, the EEa article I cited directly addressed that.
“Why do you keep defending fallacious arguments?”
I don’t. You literally just struggle with reading.
“Again, this is not an empirical question. So stop thinking you can quote blocks of text to attempt to rebut the arguments I am providing here. ”
Well if you’d actually read my ‘blocks of text’ then you’d realize my last quote was of a logical argument justifying the epistemic sequences used to validate historical science.
I’ll give you another go at that.
“since that’s the definition of ad-hoc hypothesis in philosophy—a hypothesis that cannot be independently verified of the data it purports to explain.”
Oh, so you are Bias. Wait I better say it in a way you can understand:
P1 ad hoc hyohtesis cannot be independently verified,
P2 All historical hypothesis are Ad hoc
P3 VDH is Ad hoc
C1 VDH cannot be independently verified
So either you are intentionally discriminating against EP hypothesis’ or you have severely misinterpreted the philosophical definition of Ad hoc. This is also highly probable, since, you have difficulty with reading.
“No, you stated that I ‘should’ see some kind of pattern regarding the pLi score.You never explained why I should see this pattern.”
“Lol what? Actually that’s wrong, the past is over-determined by it’s present traces.”
Selectionist hypotheses that cannot be independently verified are underdetermined.
“The conclusion was not ‘assuming the importance of genes’ you illiterate fuck.”
Barnes et al presume that assortative mating downwardly biases heritability estimates. For their presumption to be true, they would have to assume, in advance, that certain genes predisposed people to ASB and criminal behavior. Since they assumed the conclusion in the premise, it is a circular argument. Keep trying to defend circular arguments.
“Of course it was, the mathematical models were based in genomic data.”
“It really is. The paragraph was directly in response to barnes ‘argument a’. SO if it actually wasn’t then it was still a redundant statement, that had no bearing on the debate whatsoever.”
How?
“I don’t. You literally just struggle with reading.”
Barnes et al’s argument is circular; the auxiliary hypotheses twin researchers concoct to save the EEA are circular. You defend circular arguments.
“Well if you’d actually read my ‘blocks of text’ then you’d realize my last quote was of a logical argument justifying the epistemic sequences used to validate historical science.”
That doesn’t mean that selectionist hypotheses that cannot be independently verified are not just-so stories. Again: No empirical data can de-confound adaptations from byproducts.
“Oh, so you are Bias”
It was independently verified. Continued in the proper place.
“No, you stated that I ‘should’ see some kind of pattern regarding the pLi score.You never explained why I should see this pattern.”
The genes with the highest pLI are the ones most likely to show the strongest selection on LoF alleles. So if the effect they argue exists, we should see pLI numbers closer to 1.0 rather than >.9. The effect was restricted to pLI >.9.
“The effect was restricted to pLI >.9.”
It was restricted to above >.9 It wasn’t a smooth’ transition but it definitely increases sharply.
This was Barnes’ conclusion: “Barnes et al presume that assortative mating downwardly biases heritability estimates.”
Not this: “that certain genes predisposed people to ASB and criminal behavior. ”
Why do you defend strawman arguments?
“Selectionist hypotheses that cannot be independently verified are underdetermined.”
No, all Past events are overdetermined by their present traces.
“How?”
I already explained.
“Barnes et al’s argument is circular;”
Not at all, the conclusion and premise were completly different. There’s a reason heritability is still used today: Nobody took joseph or richardson seriously because they were total hacks.
“That doesn’t mean that selectionist hypotheses that cannot be independently verified are not just-so stories.”
That’s exactly what it means.
“Again: No empirical data can de-confound adaptations from byproducts.”
Th arguments presented by cleland demonstrates that historical science has an empirical edge over hard sciences.
“It was independently verified.”
You just stated AD hoc hypothesis cannot be independently verified so why is VDH exempt from this rule? Either you are bias or have misinterpreted the literature.
if you cant address the argument, my point stands
“It was restricted to above >.9 It wasn’t a smooth’ transition but it definitely increases sharply.”
Hardly. If what they were saying had any weight you’d see what I stated.
“Not this: “that certain genes predisposed people to ASB and criminal behavior.”
Barnes et al: “Assortative mating downward my biases heritability estimates.”
Joseph et al: “That’s circular since in order for them to presume this, they need tk to imply genes exist that predispose people to criminal behavior.
“Why do you defend strawman arguments”
It’s not a strawman.
“No, all Past events are overdetermined by their present traces”
My P3 still stands. Because there are no hallmarks of adaptation (because you’d see Y jf trait X were a byproduct, too). Alleged hallmarks include: complexity, economy, precision, reliability, functionality, and precision. If a behavior can be an adaptation, it can also be a byproduct, right? So again, it’s not an empirical issue. It’s a conceptual objection.
“I already explained.”
It doesn’t make sense. They state that the EEA is false based off that, it’s not fallacious, sorry.
“Not at all, the conclusion and premise were completly different. There’s a reason heritability is still used today: Nobody took joseph or richardson seriously because they were total hacks.”
Yes it is, no they aren’t.
“That’s exactly what it means.”
Was independently verified so it’s not just-so. You know the argument identifying EP hypotheses as just-so stories, the VDH was independently verified therfore its not just-so.
“Th arguments presented by cleland demonstrates that historical science has an empirical edge over hard sciences.”
No observation can de-confound adaptations from byproducts. The quote doesn’t say anything about my objection.
“If what they were saying had any weight you’d see what I stated.”
No, Lof- intolerant genes are specifically ones with a pLI score of above .9 which is where an overwhelming majority of the common risk variants present.
“Joseph et al: “That’s circular since in order for them to presume this, they need tk to imply genes exist that predispose people to criminal behavior.”
That’s not circular that’s just an assumption. So yes it’s a strawman.
“My P3 still stands. Because there are no hallmarks of adaptation (because you’d see Y jf trait X were a byproduct, too).”
I’m not going to pretend teh disticntion between a byproduct and an adaptive trait is nto at least somewhat arbitrary, for example: for example: Does lower resource allocation in colder environments select fro IQ which subsequently increases brain size as a byproduct or is Brain size the adaption to an increased need of thermoregulation and intelligence is simply the byproduct of the following increased complexity?
But it is absolutely not arbitrary when one of the traits in question is incredibly maladaptive. Schizophrenia could not be adaptive, in the study there was no positive selection found for the common risk alleles, it was mostly due to background selection as a result of purifying selection. By definition Schizophrenia is maladative in any environment because it is the impairment of sensory association in modelling the world around you. Intelligence is adaptive in any environment because it is by definition the potential to mentally adapt in any environment.
Common risk alleles were mostly found in Lof intolerent genes and these genes also happened to be ones for CNS function and development. What this means is Schizophrenia is simply the deleterious expression of functionally important genes. Schizophrenia is therefore a byproduct.
Back to the whole ‘Brain size v intelligence’ example it is still possible to differentiate between an adaptation and a spandrel:
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1038/nrg3015
The author begins by criticizing past methods of differentiating and then comes up with his own.
“So again, it’s not an empirical issue. It’s a conceptual objection.”
No, it’s an empirical one. The only way you could think it’s conceptual is if you think our methodology will remain in stasis in regards to explanatory power. Only someone with an axe to grind would make such an ignorant assumption.
“They state that the EEA is false based off that”
Barnes agreed that the EEA was false, so yes strawman.
“no they aren’t.”
Yes they are, which is evident by their fallacious reasoning. Your defense of their fallacious arguments is expected.
“The quote doesn’t say anything about my objection.”
Well since I’ve debunked every other proxy of your objection, the only possible criticism you could have is over the uncertainty of the claims, which my quote did in fact address.
“No, Lof- intolerant genes are specifically ones with a pLI score of above .9 which is where an overwhelming majority of the common risk variants present.”
Again, if the effect they argued existed, pLI scores would be closer to 1 than .09.
“That’s not circular that’s just an assumption. So yes it’s a strawman.”
Barnes et al explicitly state that assortative mating downwardly bias heritability estimates. Which means they implicitly state that genes predispose people to criminal behavior, assuming their conclusion in the premise.
Regarding schizophrenia, it has no evolutionary history as we know it.
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10539-006-9042-x
It’s just an umbrella concept, as numerous authors point out.
“The author begins by criticizing past methods of differentiating and then comes up with his own.”
How do you test which two co-extensive traits would have moved to fixation in the OEE had they not been de-confounded? How can we know the selective pressures of the OEE?
“The only way you could think it’s conceptual”
Empirical appeal are not relevant to conceptual objections.
“Barnes agreed that the EEA was false, so yes strawman.”
So we agree that the most comprehensive analysis (Polderman et al 2014) shows the EEA is false?
It is not a strawman. The EEA is false, everyone agrees.
Until twin researchers are able to identify specific and exclusive “trait-relevant” factors that contribute to the cause of the behavioral characteristic they are studying, these two widely recognized facts combine to invalidate any genetic inferences based on Argument B.
Well?
“Yes they are, which is evident by their fallacious reasoning.”
None exist.
“Your defense of their fallacious arguments is expected.”
You defend circular Argument A.
“Well since I’ve debunked every other proxy of your objection, the only possible criticism you could have is over the uncertainty of the claims, which my quote did in fact address.”
The argument still stands. What Cleland argues is a variation of IBE—inference to best explanation. There is no way to test the hypothesis that trait X moved to fixation in our ancestral environments because it enhanced fitness.
I’ll give you the last word here, we’ll pick up the EP argument elsewhere.
“Again, if the effect they argued existed, pLI scores would be closer to 1 than .09.”
Again, you are wrong. The pLi scores associated with Schizophrenia were all found in ones above .9. .9 is the closest increment to 1(why did I have to explain that?). The study states:
A finer-scale analysis of the relationship between LoF intolerance scores and enrichment for association showed that enrichment was restricted to genes with a pLI score above 0.9, precisely those defined as ‘LoF intolerant
“assuming their conclusion in the premise.”
But this: “Which means they implicitly state that genes predispose people to criminal behavior” Was not their conclusion!
“Regarding schizophrenia, it has no evolutionary history as we know it. It’s just an umbrella concept, as numerous authors point out.”
Hahaha no, Do you not read what i type? legitimate question. Why do you repeat yourself? Are you actually interested in a discussion, or do you purposefully handwave my arguments?
The study we’ve been discussing directly addressed the issues brought up in your citation which states:
“how come natural selection has not yet eliminated the infamous ‘genes for schizophrenia’ if the disorder simply crushes the reproductive success of its carriers, if it has been around for thousands of years already, and if it has a uniform prevalence throughout the world?”
The study I posted stated that Common risk variants for Schizophrenia reside in lof intolerant genes because of background selection. In fact this is one of the first misconceptions of yours that I addressed:
“Essentially what the paper was stating, was that most Genes for Schizophrenia are “hiding” with genes for normal cognitive development. This explains why such little variance has been found, and why Schizophrenia persists, despite negative selection for it. This independently verifies the study I posted on schizophrenia being a spandral not a beneficial adaptation, because it’s emergence coincides with increased cognitive functions. ”
“What Cleland argues is a variation of IBE—inference to best explanation.”
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. So, if your only objection is our uncertainty, then I’m not concerned.
“So we agree that the most comprehensive analysis (Polderman et al 2014) shows the EEA is false?”
Of course but, the effects are modest and don’t warrant an abandonment of the model itself.
“Well?”
Well what? The article on sex differences and the EEA already addressed that.
“You defend circular Argument A.”
Where?
Due to non-replications for association studies, the default assumption should be that they are false positives; I showed that schizophrenia as we know it has no evolutionary history (nor does it have validity), these studies are based on schizophrenia as we know it, therefore it speaks to no “evolutionary history” because it does not exist. There are 15 ways two people can meet the DSM criteria for schziophrenia, yet share no symptoms in common.
“The study I posted stated that Common risk variants for Schizophrenia reside in lof intolerant genes because of background selection. In fact this is one of the first misconceptions of yours that I addressed:”
Such little “variance has been found” because it doesn’t exist because the heriability is gleaned from twin studies. Schizophrenia has no evolutionary history; there are no ‘genes for’ schizophrenia, nor genes that “predispose” to schizophrenia; associations are not causes, GWAS cannot identidy causes.
“my arguments”
Quoting blocks of text, writing words, and saying “address my citations” are, again, not arguments. Maybe one day you’ll learn that.
“There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. So, if your only objection is our uncertainty, then I’m not concerned.”
“How do you test which two co-extensive traits would have moved to fixation in the OEE had they not been de-confounded? How can we know the selective pressures of the OEE?”
“Of course but, the effects are modest and don’t warrant an abandonment of the model itself.”
The most comprehensive analysis shows the EEA is false; auxiliary arguments used to save it are fallacious. Yes it warrants an abandonment of the model, not least because it assumes an outdated model of the gene.
“Well what? The article on sex differences and the EEA already addressed that.”
Where did it address trait-relevant environments? The article on schizophrenia and EEA is apt, and that it came out after Fosse, Joseph, and Richardson’s article is irrelevant because it’s a blog article and not peer reviewed. You’re saying Fosse, Joseph and Richardson 2015 is “outdated” yet you didn’t address anything in the article. The (non-peer reviewed) article on sex differences in the EEA on Human Varieties is not relevant to the EEA trait-relevant test from Fosse, Joseph, and Richardson (nevermind the fact that Joseph et al 2015 showed the EEA is false).
Either way, if DZ twins are treated more similarly, have more common friends, and are more likely to have confused identies (as we agreed), then it follows that they experience more similar trait-relevant environments as well. Therefore, since they have more similar trait-relevant environments, again, environmental similarity (both genetic, epigenetic, and nongenetic) explains DZ twin correlations.
“Where?”
My blog.
The circularity of the argument becomes validated if the feedback loop is an observable reality.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2018/02/11/delaying-gratification-and-social-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-7363
“Due to non-replications for association studies”
This study is a replication of previous ones. If GWAS was non replicable, it would not be used.
“There are 15 ways two people can meet the DSM criteria for schziophrenia, yet share no symptoms in common.”
And? Most diseases have multiple symptoms that are not always equally distributed between it’s carriers. The common cold is one example out of thousands.
“Such little “variance has been found” because it doesn’t exist because the heriability is gleaned from twin studies”
No enormous variance has been found.
“GWAS cannot identidy causes”
|
Wrong again 🙂
To identify SNPs and genes that might be causally linked to the genome-wide significant associations, we used FINEMAP39 to identify credibly causal alleles (those with a cumulative posterior probability for a locus of at least 95%) and functionally annotated these alleles using ANNOVAR40. This identified 6,105 credible SNPs across 144 genome-wide significant loci, excluding the major histocompatibility complex (MHC) region (Methods and Supplementary Table 11). From these, we defined a highly credible set of SNPs (n = 25) as those that were more likely to explain the associations than all other SNPs combined (i.e., with a FINEMAP posterior probability greater than 0.5). Of these, 14 mapped to genes on the basis of putative functionality (exonic SNPs that cause nonsynonymous or splice variations or promoter SNPs; n = 6) or mapped to regions identified as likely regulatory elements (n = 8) through chromosome conformation analysis performed in tissue from the developing brain using Hi-C41 physical interactions (Methods and Supplementary Table 12). One of the implicated alleles was a nonsynonymous variant in the manganese and zinc transporter gene SLC39A8. Nonsynonymous variants in this gene, which lead to SLC39A8 deficiency, have been associated with severe neurodevelopmental disorders putatively through impaired manganese transport and glycosylation42, highlighting a mechanism of therapeutic potential for schizophrenia.
Accurately locating causal genes (‘fine-mapping’) for complex disorders is a challenge to GWAS and usually requires multiple approaches105. To highlight credibly causal variants, we used FINEMAP v1.139 at each of the 145 identified loci (Supplementary Table 3), selecting variants with a cumulative posterior probability of 95%. These were then annotated with ANNOVAR40 release 2016Feb1 (Supplementary Table 11). We mapped the SNPs with a FINEMAP posterior probability higher than 0.5 to the developing brain Hi-C data generated by Won et al.41, following the methodology described therein, which allowed us to implicate genes by chromatin interactions instead of solely chromosomal position (Supplementary Table 12). We compiled results from the eQTL analysis of the CommonMind Consortium post-mortem brain tissues44. This included 15,782 genes, which were curated to remove any genes with FPKM = 0 across >10% of individuals. All the SNPs from the meta-analysis data were mapped to the eQTL data using rs numbers, position and allele matching. Both datasets were analyzed together using SMR43, which resulted in 4,276 genes showing eQTLs with overlapping SNPs and genome-wide significant P values
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5768719/
“Maybe one day you’ll learn that.”
Maybe one day you’ll learn that you are not on an Authority on what constitutes an argument.
“Quoting blocks of text, writing words, and saying “address my citations””
Is 100% an Argument you just have to be intelligent enough to decipher which statements are premises and to remember the overall conclusion. You saying “what are the arguments” is not justifiable and only reflects your mental laziness. So if you don’t have a proper rebuttal to my arguments, you concede. if your next response is not a direct rebuttal, then I’m no longer interested.
“Yes it warrants an abandonment of the model”
No, the bias is modest.
‘Where did it address trait-relevant environments?”
Across all traits — which range from psychological to sociological and from medical to morphological — the average same-sex DZ correlation is 0.35, while the average opposite-sex correlation is 0.30. At first blush, this suggests a small excess environmental similarity of 0.05 for same-sex DZs compared to opposite-sex ones. However, the average MZ correlation is about 0.63, indicating that any effect of sex is dwarfed by the effect of zygosity. Moreover, the slightly greater similarity of same-sex DZs is unlikely to be wholly due to environmental differences. Many traits examined in twin studies involve innate sex differences. For example, same-sex DZs have more similar heights than opposite-sex DZs not because of gender socialization but because height genes are differentially expressed in males and females.
As the above data merges together all kinds of traits, age groups, etc., it’s useful to bore deeper into the Polderman et al. dataset.
“My blog.”
No. I was defending the circularity of the Nature/nurture feedback loops, not the strawman Joseph pulled out of his ass.
“This study is a replication of previous ones. If GWAS was non replicable, it would not be used.”
Associations are not causes; association studies are well-known for not being replicable and even if replicable it doesn’t mean anything for causation.
“And? Most diseases have multiple symptoms that are not always equally distributed between it’s carriers. The common cold is one example out of thousands.”
The common cold is in no way similar to a “psychiatric disease”.
“No enormous variance has been found.”
5.7 percent when compared with other datasets; variance explained=/=the genetics od the trait in question. LoF-intolerant genes explained 30 percent of genic h2, and? Nowhere near h2 gleaned from twin studies. Further, you should wait for further analysis. The paper I cited earlier is why.
“Wrong again”
Do you know what “causation” is in regard to biology?
“Maybe one day you’ll learn that you are not on an Authority on what constitutes an argument.”
Didn’t claim to be one. I only claimed that arguments have premises and conclusions.
“Is 100% an Argument you just have to be intelligent enough to decipher which statements are premises and to remember the overall conclusion. You saying “what are the arguments” is not justifiable and only reflects your mental laziness. So if you don’t have a proper rebuttal to my arguments, you concede. if your next response is not a direct rebuttal, then I’m no longer interested.”
A rebuttal to what’ There was no argument. Have fun no longer being interested, you’ve provided no argument.
“No, the bias is modest.”
The conceptual, biological model that heritability rests on is flawed.
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/S1057-629020150000016002
Where did the blog article address schiz and the EEA? As I said, if the twins are treated more similarly, the trait-relevant environments were similar too.
There are no psychophysical laws so psychophysical traits cannot be inherited.
“No. I was defending the circularity of the Nature/nurture feedback loops, not the strawman Joseph pulled out of his ass.”
You said Argument A was not circular; “The circularity of the argument becomes validated if the feedback loop is an observable reality” was in response to fallacious Argument A. You defended Argument A thus you defend circular arguments.
“association studies are well-known for not being replicable”
False, Gwas have been replicated, and every study I posted in this ‘debate’ independently verifies the other.
“The common cold is in no way similar to a “psychiatric disease”.”
When did I say it was? Your contention: That multiple symptoms can express themselves independently in individuals, in no way effects the ‘existence’ of Schizophrenia.
“There was no argument. Have fun no longer being interested, you’ve provided no argument.”
Still waiting.
“5.7 percent when compared with other datasets; variance explained=/=the genetics od the trait in question. LoF-intolerant genes explained 30 percent of genic h2, and? ”
And, epigenetics mediates schizophrenia’s expression.
“Do you know what “causation” is in regard to biology?”
Multi-faceted and probabilistic.
“I only claimed that arguments have premises and conclusions.”
So then what does that have to do with my arguments, when it is plain as day what my premises and conclusions are?
“The conceptual, biological model that heritability rests on is flawed.”
Blah blah blah, more ad nauseam. Yawn*
“Where did the blog article address schiz and the EEA”
What are you talking about? Schiz is a separate argument from the validity of EEA.
“There are no psychophysical laws so psychophysical traits cannot be inherited.”
False, schizophrenia is inherited
““The circularity of the argument becomes validated if the feedback loop is an observable reality” ”
In regards to nature nurture loop. Quit quote mining.
Delete the first one pumpkin.
You deny that association studies are rife with false positives? That there are numerous ways two people can be “schizophrenic” without overlap doesn’t make sense. It’s an umbrella term. No privileged level of causation in biological systems. You’ve yet to provide any arguments. You can say “ad nauseum” all you want, it’s a fact that heritability is based on a flawed biological model. Fosse, Joseph and Richardson discuss schizophrenia and the EEA. What do you think of the article? Referring to Human Varieties and saying that Fosse, Joseph and Richardson is an earlier paper, as if a non-peer reviewed article has anything to do with anything doesn’t make sense. The arguments Fosse, Joseph and Richardson make are sound; nothing in the Human Varieties article addresses Fosse, Joseph and Richardson. They show the non-validity of the EEA regarding schizophrenia. But keep referring to an unrelated article just because it’s “newer”. Psychophysical laws don’t exist. It’s not “quote mining”, that’s you defending circular arguments.
“You deny that association studies are rife with false positives? ”
When did I say they weren’t? That doesn’t mean they’re not replicable.
“That there are numerous ways two people can be “schizophrenic” without overlap doesn’t make sense. ”
Why doesn’t it make sense? There are many diseases and ailments that can have multiple symptoms and causal pathways which do not always coincide. You’re demanding that Schizophrenia should somehow bend to the ‘rules’ you’ve arbitrarily created.
“No privileged level of causation in biological systems. ”
Im not having a semantic argument with you. All physical and biological systems are inherently holistic by definition, this doesn’t mean ‘proximate’ and ‘distal’ cannot be useful adjectives in differentiating between which causes are closer to which specific effects.
” You can say “ad nauseum” all you want”
And I will, as long as you continue to use the fallacy with such grotesque liberalism. Argument=/=syllogism. Still waiting.
“as if a non-peer reviewed article has anything to do with anything doesn’t make sense. ”
Then peer review it. Show me what is wrong with article. Fosse, joseph and dickardson, are not versed in the literature on Schizophrenia and resort to fallacious semanticism and absolutism to add an air of false skepticism. It’s not surprising you fall for it. Creationists are always desperate to confirm their bias presuppositions.
“It’s not “quote mining”, that’s you defending circular arguments.”
No it’s you quote mining. The feedback-loop between nurture and nature is not a ‘circular argument’.
“That doesn’t mean they’re not replicable.”
That doesn’t mean associations are causes. That further doesn’t mean that the “Genes identified” cause trait variation.
“Why doesn’t it make sense?”
It’s not well-defined. It’s not a valid disorder.
“Im not having a semantic argument with you”
There’s no privileged level of causation.
“Still waiting.”
You don’t make arguments, you make claims. There’s a difference.
“Show me what is wrong with article”
The EEA is false. That’s what’s wrong.
“resort to fallacious semanticism and absolutism to add an air of false skepticism”
Go on.
“Creationists are always desperate to confirm their bias presuppositions”
How are they “creationists”? And it’s funny you talk about biases that confirm presuppositions when that’s exactly what test constructors do with IQ tests.
“No it’s you quote mining. The feedback-loop between nurture and nature is not a ‘circular argument’.”
That was your defense of Argument A. Are you keeping up here? You defend circular arguments.
Also, regarding circular Argument A (which toy attempt to defend on the basis of feedback and forward loops):
We have seen that circular reasoning is “empty reasoning in which the conclusion rests on an assumption whose validity is dependent on the conclusion” (Reber, 1985, p. 123). … A circular argument consists of “using as evidence a fact which is authenticated by the very conclusion it supports,” which “gives us two unknowns so busy chasing each other’s tails that neither has time to attach itself to reality” (Pirie, 2006, p. 27) (Joseph, 2016: 164).
Keep defending circular arguments.
“That doesn’t mean associations are causes. That further doesn’t mean that the “Genes identified” cause trait variation.”
It does though, at least for the variants that have been replicated.
“It’s not well-defined. It’s not a valid disorder.”
Schizophrenia is simply ego dissolution. All symptoms trace back to that one cognitive issue. Cognitive dysfunction is indeed a disorder. No matter the name.
“There’s no privileged level of causation.”
Do you honestly believe repeating yourself and ignoring my contention is how you ‘debate’? You just keep making yourself look dumber and dumber. If you don’t have a proper response, fuck off. I don’t have time for children. My point still stands.
“You don’t make arguments, you make claims. There’s a difference.”
Arguments are made of premises and conclusions. My ‘claims’ are all premises to my conclusion which is usually counter to yours. Still waiting.
“The EEA is false. That’s what’s wrong.”
Lol, sorry but reality doesn’t change when you disagree with it. Still waiting.
“Go on.”
With what? Have you actually read their shit?
“How are they “creationists”? And it’s funny you talk about biases that confirm presuppositions when that’s exactly what test constructors do with IQ tests.”
You are a creationist. You deny genetic inheritance because of conflicting personal interests. It is an absolute fact that every biological trait and it’s projections are inherited. The only criticism you have ever provided is ‘uncertainty’. You are the same as the creationists who thought we’d never discover the mechanism of evolution(dna) or it’s complexities. Despite attempts by everyone to show you that the error rate these confounds produce can also be mitigated through statistical methodology, you’ve simply responded with ‘on the spot’ fallacies, demanding specific proof to an unreasonable extreme. You’re overtly critical on everyone’s position, except your own.
” Are you keeping up here?”
It’s hilarious that someone who can’t even read properly is asking me this question.
“Keep defending circular arguments.”
my point exactly^ Illiterate.
“It does though, at least for the variants that have been replicated.”
No, it does not.
“Schizophrenia is simply ego dissolution. All symptoms trace back to that one cognitive issue. Cognitive dysfunction is indeed a disorder. No matter the name.”
This means it’s well-defined and valid?
“Do you honestly believe repeating yourself and ignoring my contention is how you ‘debate’? You just keep making yourself look dumber and dumber. If you don’t have a proper response, fuck off. I don’t have time for children. My point still stands.”
What’s the a priori justification?
“Arguments are made of premises and conclusions. My ‘claims’ are all premises to my conclusion which is usually counter to yours. Still waiting.”
Hahaha.
“Lol, sorry but reality doesn’t change when you disagree with it. Still waiting.”
This is reality. MZs are treated more similarly and experience more similar environments than DZs. Thus the EEA is false.
“With what? Have you actually read their shit?”
I’m asking you to continue.
“You are a creationist.”
No I am not.
“You deny genetic inheritance because of conflicting personal interests”
What aare my “conflicting personal interests”?
“It’s hilarious that someone who can’t even read properly is asking me this question.”
“my point exactly^ Illiterate.”
Nope. I’ve quoted you defending Argument A (circular).
Re schizophrenia. Have you seen the new results that show that 108 previously-identified sections of that genome that are “associated” with schizophrenia aren’t so “risky” if the mother’s pregnancy is healthy?
We conclude that a subset of the most significant genetic variants associated with schizophrenia converge on a developmental trajectory sensitive to events that affect the placental response to stress, which may offer insights into sex biases and primary prevention.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0021-y
Also, perhaps the larger point to drive home regarding twin studies isn’t necessarily the falsity of the EEA (though it completely invaldiates twin studies), but the fact that “nature” and “nurture” cannot be separated; Jensen ignored numerous things regarding heriability; heritability estimates assume additive genetic effects (that G and E are indepedent of each other, which is false).
Philosopher James Tabery chronicles the history of the heritability concept in this book:
https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/beyond-versus
“No, it does not.”
It does. If the hits have been replicated, it’s reasonable to assume they have some causal function. Probablistic causation.
“This means it’s well-defined and valid?”
Yes.
“What’s the a priori justification?”
To what?
“Hahaha.”
Still waiting.
“Thus the EEA is false.”
Non sequitur. You stating the EEA is false does not address the contention of the article, which sought to prove the opposite. You specifically brought up trait relevant environments, which i addressed. Still waiting. Why are you being this lazy?
“I’m asking you to continue.”
With what? I stated my reasoning.
“What aare my “conflicting personal interests”?”
I can’t read your mind, so either your fallacious reasoning comes from a) stupidity or b) bias. Those are you only 2 choices.
“Nope. I’ve quoted you defending Argument A (circular).”
Delusional. You still haven’t provided any evidence of me defending a circular argument, while I’ve shown that you do extensively. Jay joseph committed multiple fallacies in his criticism of barnes, yet there you are, dickriding as usual.
‘identified sections of that genome that are “associated” with schizophrenia aren’t so “risky” if the mother’s pregnancy is healthy?”
Ok? As I stated Schizophrenia’s expression is mostly catalyzed through epigenetics.
“It’s reasonable to assume”
No it isn’t.
“Yes”
No.
“To what?”
I said that there is no privileged level of causation in biological systems. You said there is. Well what’s the a priori justification?
“Still waiting”
Still laughing. Still waiting for an argument and not claims and assertions.
“Which I addressed”
If they experience more similar environments and treatment, then they, necessarily, experience more similar trait-relevant environments.
Are the results of family studies explainable by genetics or environment?
“I can’t read your mind.”
So don’t make baseless assertions.
“You still haven’t provided any evidence”
I did. You defend Argument A on the basis of feedback loops. It’s a circular argument. The “fallacies” you pointed out from Joseph et al are, in actuality, not fallacies.
“Ok?”
OK? So if the maternal environment is healthy then “schizophrenia” shouldn’t be “expressed”, nevermind they used PRS as a basis.
“No it isn’t.”
Says who? They’re obviously causal. Especially if some of the common risk variants are related to normal brain function. If schizophrenia is a maladaptive cognitive expression of genes, then this would make enormous sense. Causation is simply mechanistically relating one variable to another. We already know the biological mechanism(genetic expression, in both the literal and vague sense) so all that’s left is identifying the most correlated and most replicated hits and then independently verifying the candidates through the discovery of unrelated experimental associations. I provided evidence for this with schizophrenia in the above posts.
“No.”
Yes. Schizophrenia is defined as ego dissolution. All symptoms known of schizophrenia such as hallucinations, disorganized thinking, and high paranoia are a result of overflowing excitatory oscillations when presented with sensory information. Which is why Schizophrenia is one of the only mental illnesses that psychedelics such as LSD and Psilocybin cannot treat.
“You said there is.”
I never at any point in this conversation said there was. The validity of Proximate and Distal causes as terms being applicable in biology does not contradict this either. Words are not things.
“Still laughing. Still waiting for an argument and not claims and assertions.”
I have produced many arguments. For example if you state that schizophrenia is not inherited or schizoprehnia is not a real psycho-physical entity The premises would be the multiple links I provide, all with a subsequent summarizing statement by me. The conclusion would be implied to be, but not necessarily stated as: schizophrenia is in fact inherited
You can laugh all you want, but you haven’t convinced anyone. If you’re not arguing with me to convince me or at least the “audience”, then what the hell are you doing?
“Are the results of family studies explainable by genetics or environment?”
Both.
“So don’t make baseless assertions.”
They’re not baseless. You made fallacious statements and did not explain yourself when pressed. Usually I’d just assume it’s a mistake, but when it’s a consistent issue, it needs to be addressed.
“I did. You defend Argument A on the basis of feedback loops. It’s a circular argument.
So feedback loops are circular arguments?
“The “fallacies” you pointed out from Joseph et al are, in actuality, not fallacies.”
No, they’re fallacious in every sense of the word.I pointed out to each fallacy as well, and where the fallacy stemmed. Joseph continuously made a strawman of Barnes’ position.
“OK? So if the maternal environment is healthy then “schizophrenia” shouldn’t be “expressed”
What exactly is your point? Which argument is this addressing?
“Says who?”
Just because you find “replicated” “genes” doesn’t mean these genes are causal for the trait in question; it could still be a spurious, noncausal relationship.
“Yes. Schizophrenia is defined as ego dissolution. All symptoms known of schizophrenia such as hallucinations, disorganized thinking, and high paranoia are a result of overflowing excitatory oscillations when presented with sensory information. Which is why Schizophrenia is one of the only mental illnesses that psychedelics such as LSD and Psilocybin cannot treat.”
So what? There’s still the fact that there are 15 ways that 2 people can be “diagnosed” with schizophrenia and not have overlapping symptoms.
“I never at any point in this conversation said there was. The validity of Proximate and Distal causes as terms being applicable in biology does not contradict this either. Words are not things.”
Again, so what? There is no privileged level of causation. “Ad infinitum” that, because you didn’t address it.
“I have produced many arguments”
You don’t know what an argument it. Provided links is not a damn argument, for the last time.
“Both.”
Nope; even the genetically-inclined investigators state that family studies cannot disentangle environment from genes (not like it’s possible anyway. Think about why family studies cannot account for this.
“They’re not baseless”
So what are my “conflicting biases”, if “They’r’e not baseless”?
“So feedback loops are circular arguments?”
Yes, Argument A is a circular argument, you defend circular arguments as I have shown.
“No, they’re fallacious in every sense of the word.”
No they’re not, at all. You obviously don’t understand the debate and are grasping for straws to calls “Fallacy!!!” because the critics point out garbage fallacious logic and you want to join in the fun too.
“What exactly is your point? Which argument is this addressing?”
Where are the arguments? Your claims and hyperlinks are not arguments. Maybe you’ll learn this one day.
Further, re schizophrenia, measuring fitness in the OEE is impossible, so there cannot be good evidence for a byproduct hypothesis. The time machine argument is apt here.
P1) To test any EP claim you need to de-confound traits that are coextensive in the OEE.
P2) To test the claim, one needs a time machine.
P3) Time machines don’t exist.
C) Therefore the evolutionary claims are not testable.
P1) The hypothesis that trait X is a byproduct is falsifiable if and only if an observation exists by which we can verify that trait X moved to fixation in virtue of being a byproduct of “intelligence” and not in virtue of it being an adaptation.
P2) No such observation exists (not only for evolutionary schizophrenia stories, but all EP hypotheses).
C) Therefore byproduct and adaptationist hypotheses are just-so stories.
” it could still be a spurious, noncausal relationship.”
It could, but it’s not. Elaborate more, how could it not be a causal relationship, when possible agents have been replicated and the said mechanisms for which this catalyzation occurs has been identified?
“So what?”
What do you mean “so what?”? Your contention: that Schizophrenia is ill defined is one steeped in ignorance. i provided a definition that covers all known symptoms. The real “so what?” is your next statement:
“There’s still the fact that there are 15 ways that 2 people can be “diagnosed” with schizophrenia and not have overlapping symptoms.”
Why do isolated symptoms(a trait not unique to mental ilnesses) mean Schizophrenia is “ill defined”?
“Again, so what? There is no privileged level of causation”
Again, Saying “so what?” is not a proper response to a direct rebuttal of your strawman: The fact that natural systems are holistic has no relevancy to my point.
“You don’t know what an argument it. Provided links is not a damn argument, for the last time.”
I provided a sound and valid argument, for why they abstractly constitute an argument. Still waiting.
“even the genetically-inclined investigators state that family studies cannot disentangle environment from genes”
So what? How does that contradict my statement?
“So what are my “conflicting biases”, if “They’r’e not baseless””
You tell me. Why are you consistently using fallacious reasoning in our discussions?
“Yes”
Well since you subscribe to a holistic view of biological systems then you also defend circular arguments.
“No they’re not, at all.”
You have yet to demonstrate the invalidity of accusations. I provided examples to each fallacy committed, while you simply reasserted Josephs original claim. Still waiting.
“Where are the arguments?”
That still doesn’t answer my question.
“It could, but it’s not. Elaborate more, how could it not be a causal relationship, when possible agents have been replicated and the said mechanisms for which this catalyzation occurs has been identified?”
How is it responsible for trait variation? How is it causal?
“Why do isolated symptoms(a trait not unique to mental ilnesses) mean Schizophrenia is “ill defined”?”
It matters because people studied by one researcher may have little in common with others studied by another researcher.
“The fact that natural systems are holistic has no relevancy to my point.”
What’s the a priori justification?
“I provided a sound and valid argument, for why they abstractly constitute an argument. Still waiting.”
Wait forever, because until you give me an argument and not “hur dur muh links are arguments” then you’ll be waiting forever.
“So what? How does that contradict my statement?”
Because none of the methods used by behavior geneticists can de-confound environment from genes.
“You tell me. Why are you consistently using fallacious reasoning in our discussions?”
What are my biases?
“I provided examples to each fallacy committed, while you simply reasserted Josephs original claim. Still waiting.”
They’re not fallacies, just because you say they’re fallacies doesn’t mean they’re fallacies. Their point on assortative mating is true, it’s an implicit assumption from them, it does not need to be spelled out, so you calling “strawman” there is dumb. Do things need to be explicitly spelled out?
“Well since you subscribe to a holistic view of biological systems then you also defend circular arguments.”
Where have I defended a circular argument?
“That still doesn’t answer my question.”
You didn’t make any arguments. Learn what an argument is.
“How is it responsible for trait variation? How is it causal?”
Common risk variants can be expressed as schizophrenia through sensory deprivation. That’s one way. It really is just finding associations at that point.
“It matters because people studied by one researcher may have little in common with others studied by another researcher.”
This still doesn’t answer my question. This isn’t unique to schizophrenia so if other researchers researching other diseases seem to overcome this problem why cant the ones studying Schizophrenia?
“What’s the a priori justification?”
To what?
“Wait forever, because until you give me an argument and not “hur dur muh links are arguments” then you’ll be waiting forever.”
So there is no error in my reasoning? Glad to see you finally agreeing.
“Because none of the methods used by behavior geneticists can de-confound environment from genes.”
And? Plus, the feedback loop isn’t temporally constant.
“What are my biases?”
You tell me, why do you keep indulging in fallacies?
“just because you say they’re fallacies doesn’t mean they’re fallacies”
That’s not why they’re fallacious. They’re fallacious because they meet the definition of known fallacies.
“Where have I defended a circular argument?”
p1 You confirmed that feedback loops are circular arguments.
p2 You defen a holistic view of Biology.
p3 The feedback loop of nature and nurture is holistic
p4 you defend nature/nurture feedback loop
c1 You defend circular arguments
“You didn’t make any arguments. Learn what an argument is.”
I did. it’s not my fault if you don’t know how to read.
“Common risk variants can be expressed as schizophrenia through sensory deprivation. That’s one way. It really is just finding associations at that point.”
Well?
“This still doesn’t answer my question. This isn’t unique to schizophrenia so if other researchers researching other diseases seem to overcome this problem why cant the ones studying Schizophrenia?”
Yes it does.
“To what?”
Biological functioning.
“So there is no error in my reasoning? Glad to see you finally agreeing.”
There is no “reasoning”, leaving links saying “rebut my links” is not an argument.
“And? Plus, the feedback loop isn’t temporally constant.”
What do you mean “And?”? Family studies are just like twin studies; they cannot de-confound the environment from genes.
“You tell me, why do you keep indulging in fallacies?”
I don’t. What are my biases? You made an assertion, now answer.
“That’s not why they’re fallacious. They’re fallacious because they meet the definition of known fallacies.”
Nah, it’s just because you’re saying they’re fallacies. For the assortative mating assumption, genetic similarity is implicitly stated. You don’t need to explicitly state something, do you?
DST is not a “circular argument”, nice try though.
“I did. it’s not my fault if you don’t know how to read.”
Sorry kid, maybe one day you’ll learn what an argument is.
Melo, I need your logical expertise: is this a circular argument?
The fundamentally circular causation between genes and environment makes it futile to separate genetic from environmental contributions to development
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/No_Genes_for_Intelligence_in_the_Human_Genome.php
Just so you know, this has nothing to do with circular Argument A.
“Yes it does.”
This doesn’t explain how Schizophrenia is “ill defined”. You never answered my question, again.
“Biological functioning.”
What are you talking about?
“saying “rebut my links” is not an argument”
If you can’t provide a rebuttal to the syllogism I posted justifying my “links and words” as abstract arguments, then I’m not interested in anymore ad nauseam from you.
“I don’t.”
You do. I’ve pointed them out many times. Your favorites are ad nauseam and strawman arguments. Im still waiting for an answer.
“What do you mean “And?”?”
And what does this have to do with my statement? You asked a question, I said “both”, you seem to have extrapolated quite the strawman from one simple word.
“Nah, it’s just because you’re saying they’re fallacies.”
Josephs argument is a strawman because it did not accurately represent Barnes’ position or the structure of his arguments. The genetic predisposition of criminal behavior, is possibly a false assumption, but it was not both the conclusion and the 1st premise of his argument. Oh wait,”words and links” aren’t arguments, so how could Barnes’ be producing a circular argument? Why does Joseph assume “words and links” are arguments?
“DST is not a “circular argument”, nice try though.”
Address the syllogism, my argument is sound and valid.
“Sorry kid, maybe one day you’ll learn what an argument is.”
Well so far you seem to be the only person who thinks an argument must always be in syllogism form. So that’s a sign that you’re full of shit, as usual.
“Melo, I need your logical expertise: is this a circular argument?”
I don’t think so, but you admitted that you did.
“Just so you know, this has nothing to do with circular Argument A.”
Ok, then why are you saying Im defending argument A when your “example” was of me defending feedback loops? Strawman as usual, try harder.
“This doesn’t explain how Schizophrenia is “ill defined”. You never answered my question, again.”
It it were well-defined we wouldn’t have the case were 2 people can have 15 non-overlapping “symptoms”.
“What are you talking about?”
A priori justification.
“If you can’t provide a rebuttal to the syllogism I posted justifying my “links and words” as abstract arguments, then I’m not interested in anymore ad nauseam from you.”
Arguments have premises and conclusions. Your “words” (citation) is not an argument. Your cute little dress-up attempting to show that you make “arguments” here was good, but not good enough. Writing words and leaving links is not an argument; they’re claims.
“You do. I’ve pointed them out many times. Your favorites are ad nauseam and strawman arguments. Im still waiting for an answer.”
Nope.
“And what does this have to do with my statement? You asked a question, I said “both”, you seem to have extrapolated quite the strawman from one simple word.”
This guy. I didn’t “extrapolate quite the strawman from one simple word”. The point is, twin and family studies cannot untangle environment from genetics. They measure environmental similarity, not genetics.
“Josephs argument is a strawman because it did not accurately represent Barnes’ position or the structure of his arguments.”
The “no assortative mating” assumption assumes genetic similarity. Thus the conclusion was assumed in the premise. Circular.
“Address the syllogism, my argument is sound and valid.”
The view of evolution I push is holistic, meaning there is no a priori justification for placing one system over another. DST is not circular; interactions between differing systems are not circular. The philosophy of DST is not circular, seems like you need to read Susan Oyama.
“Well so far you seem to be the only person who thinks an argument must always be in syllogism form. So that’s a sign that you’re full of shit, as usual.”
Maybe you’ll learn what an argument is one day, kid.
“I don’t think so, but you admitted that you did.”
So it isn’t?
“Ok, then why are you saying Im defending argument A when your “example” was of me defending feedback loops? Strawman as usual, try harder.”
Because you defended Argument A by invoking feedback loops thus you defend circular arguments. I said that it is not relevant to twins because it’s speaking about development in the womb.
“It it were well-defined we wouldn’t have the case were 2 people can have 15 non-overlapping “symptoms”.”
That’s not true, other diseases have symptoms independent of one another. I’m not sure why you aren’t just explaining why you disagree with each refutation instead of just repeating yourself. Perfect example of ad nauseam.
“A priori justification.”
What relevance does this have?
“. Your cute little dress-up attempting to show that you make “arguments” here was good, but not good enough. ”
It was perfectly valid and sound, you have yet to demonstrate why it isn’t. Repeating an assertion is not the same as refuting an argument.
“Nope.”
Well you can deny it all you want, but I’ve clearly demonstrated your fallacious attitude to this “debate”. All you can do is create strawman arguments and repeat already refuted contentions.
“I didn’t “extrapolate quite the strawman from one simple word”.”
Obviously you did, because you’re prescribing me positions that i did not directly express. How did That single word imply all of that?
“genetic similarity. Thus the conclusion”
Barnes’ conclusion wasn’t genetic similarity, how many times must this be repeated?
“The view of evolution I push is holistic, meaning there is no a priori justification for placing one system over another. DST is not circular; interactions between differing systems are not circular.”
Then why did you answer “yes” to my question?
“Maybe you’ll learn what an argument is one day, kid.”
I’ve made many arguments. Prove me wrong.
“Because you defended Argument A by invoking feedback loops thus you defend circular arguments.”
Feedback loops aren’t circular arguments.
“That’s not true, other diseases have symptoms independent of one another.”
Thw relevance of the objection is when it comes to analyses. If there are X number of ways people can be “schizophrenic” what relevance does sit have if there is no singular aetiology?
“What relevance does this have?”
What’s the a priori justification for placing one system above another?
“It was perfectly valid and sound, you have yet to demonstrate why it isn’t. Repeating an assertion is not the same as refuting an argument.”
Again, writing words and leaving links isn’t an argument. You don’t leave arguments for your *claims*, you make *claims*, not *arguments.*
“Obviously you did”
What methods can BGs use to de-confound genes from environment in family, twin and adoption studies?
“Barnes’ conclusion wasn’t genetic similarity, how many times must this be repeated?”
Quote Barnes.
“Then why did you answer “yes” to my question?
Saying “feedback loops”isn’t a circular argument because an argument wasn’t made. DST is not circular. Argument A however is.
“I’ve made many arguments. Prove me wrong.”
When I ask for the argument you say” muh links, muh words “which aren’t arguments.
“Feedback loops aren’t circular arguments.”
Argument A is circular.
We have seen that circular reasoning is “empty reasoning in which the conclusion rests on an assumption whose validity is dependent on the conclusion” (Reber, 1985, p. 123). … A circular argument consists of “using as evidence a fact which is authenticated by the very conclusion it supports,” which “gives us two unknowns so busy chasing each other’s tails that neither has time to attach itself to reality” (Pirie, 2006, p. 27) (Joseph, 2016: 164).
The EEA is false.
Click to access Charney_BGPG.pdf
There’s also another problem with Argument A:
it shows that twins behave accordingly to “inherited environment-creating blueprint” (Joseph, 2016: 164) but at the same time shows that parents and other adults are easily able to change their behaviors to match that of the behaviors that the twins show, which in effect, allows them to “create” or “elicit” their own environments. But the adults’ “environment-creating behavior and personality” should be way more unchangeable than the twins’ since along with the presumed genetic similarity, adults have “experienced decades of behavior-molding peer, family, religious, and other socialization influences” (Joseph, 2016: 165).
“If there are X number of ways people can be “schizophrenic” what relevance does sit have if there is no singular aetiology?”
You’re misunderstanding. Schizophrenia is defined by Ego dissolution, Symptoms(hallucinations,disorganized,speech,paranoia) are not causes(gene expression).
“What’s the a priori justification for placing one system above another?”
In what context?
“Again, writing words and leaving links isn’t an argument. ”
P1 Arguments consist of premises and conclusions
P2 Claims backed by empirical observations are premises, conclusions are the overall point a claim is trying to buttress
P3 My claims are empirically backed, my conclusion is formed from these claims
C1 I am producing a legitimate form of an argument.
Still waiting.
“What methods can BGs use to de-confound genes from environment in family, twin and adoption studies?”
Did you not read the studies I cited? Ill be waiting, as usual.
“Quote Barnes.”
“Conclusion: When the assumption of random mating fails, a portion of the variance that should be attributed to A is instead attributed to C, and this bias is more substantial for traits with higher levels of “true” additive genetic variance. ”
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1745-9125.12049
“Saying “feedback loops”isn’t a circular argument because an argument wasn’t made.”
Why did you say yes?
“When I ask for the argument you say” muh links, muh words “which aren’t arguments.”
No they’re arguments. Syllogisms are redundant. Sources and substantiated claims>priori arguments.
“Symptoms aren’t cause”
What causes?
Right, arguments consist of premises and conclusions. You write words and leave links. Which are not arguments. Nice try.
How can they de-confound?
That’s not the quote.
The impact of the assumption is that they cancel each other out in favor of genetic interpretations. It’s false.
Stating that I’m a proponent of DST doesn’t mean I defend circular arguments. Nice try.
What is DST?
Nah they’re not arguments.
“What causes?”
Genetic expression…..I just said that, reading comprehension.
“How can they de-confound?”
What are you talking about?
“Nice try.”
P1 Arguments consist of premises and conclusions
P2 Claims backed by empirical observations are premises, conclusions are the overall point a claim is trying to buttress
P3 My claims are empirically backed, my conclusion is formed from these claims
C1 I am producing a legitimate form of an argument.
Still waiting.
“That’s not the quote.”
LOL, yes it is. Anybody who reads this conversation and clicks on the links will see it matches my quote and the context that we are speaking.
“Stating that I’m a proponent of DST doesn’t mean I defend circular arguments. Nice try.”
Why can’t you answer my question: Why did you say yes?
Genes can’t cause; how are they able to de-confound environment from genes and vice versa; in order for Barnes et al to be able to claim that non-random mating patterns drive down h2 estimates for criminal behavior, they need to assume in advance that genes predispose people to criminality etc, so it’s a circular argument; I said “yes,” because genes feedback and forward from environment, but that does not mean that DST is a circular argument, nor does it mean that Argument A is valid: circular arguments tell us no new information, which is why “Person A is in Newtown, therefore Person A is in Newtown” is a circular argument since no new information was given, no new information is given in regard to Argument A (the conclusion is stated in the premise and the conclusion is stated in the premise) and it is thusly invalid since no new information was given. (DST emphasizes the shared contribution of genes, environment, and epigenetics, on the processes of development and is a philosophical position. It’s not ‘circular’ in the slightest. What you call ‘circular’ in regard to DST is Joint Determination by Multiple Causes—that development is caused by multiple interacting factors, but that’s one out of many things regarding DST. It’s not circular.)
Have you read The Ontogeny of Information by Susan Oyama? The Developing Gene and The Dependent Gene: The Fallacy of Nature vs. Nurturew and The Developing Genome: An Introduction to Behavioral Epigenetics by D. S. Moore?
Further, you asked if “feedback loops” are circular “arguments”; the loops themselves aren’t “circular arguments”, it’s just a process, no argument was made. I said “Yes” regarding that Argument A was circular.
More on Argument A: The Argument is that identicals share more similar environments, therefore the EEA is violated. However, to save the EEA, twin researchers claim that the twins “elicit” or “create” their own environments for themselves because they are more genetically similar. It is circular because the ‘twins create their own environments’ premise already assumes that similar genes cause the environment-building of the twins. Thus, it’s circular (which means that no new information is given. Circular arguments contain no new evidence which is distinct from the conclusion.
Either way, niche-seeking is an action, therefore there cannot be any genetic pre-disposition to seeking niches. Stating that MZ twins are “genetically predisposed” to seek similar environments is an ad-hoc explanation, formulated to save the genetic hypothesis from falsification. Actions are not explained by physical facts.
One more problem with Argument A is that it shows that twins behave accordingly to “inherited environment-creating blueprint” (Joseph, 2016: 164) but at the same time shows that parents and other adults are easily able to change their behaviors to match that of the behaviors that the twins show, which in effect, allows them to “create” or “elicit” their own environments. But the adults’ “environment-creating behavior and personality” should be way more unchangeable than the twins’ since along with the presumed genetic similarity, adults have “experienced decades of behavior-molding peer, family, religious, and other socialization influences” (Joseph, 2016: 165).
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2018/05/28/twin-studies-adoption-studies-and-fallacious-reasoning/
I’m done with these conversations for real this time. I’ve said what I had to say. Take the last word(s).
Just so everyone who reads this conversation is clear, this is another ad nauseam fallacy by racerealist:
RR:”The “no assortative mating” assumption assumes genetic similarity. Thus the conclusion was assumed in the premise. Circular.”
Me:”Barnes’ conclusion wasn’t genetic similarity, how many times must this be repeated?”
RR: “Quote Barnes.”
Me:”“Conclusion: When the assumption of random mating fails, a portion of the variance that should be attributed to A is instead attributed to C, and this bias is more substantial for traits with higher levels of “true” additive genetic variance. ””
RR: “in order for Barnes et al to be able to claim that non-random mating patterns drive down h2 estimates for criminal behavior, they need to assume in advance that genes predispose people to criminality etc, so it’s a circular argument”
“Genes can’t cause; how are they able to de-confound environment from genes and vice versa;”
You can’t defound it but the heritability model which is simply a measure of proportion of variances doesn’t violate the nature/nurture feedback loop. Genes are causes, that’s not a debate. Holism doesn’t refute this, but go ahead keep being an absolutist.
“I’m done with these conversations for real this time. I’ve said what I had to say. Take the last word(s).”
That’s right, run away.
So you can’t de-confound? I see you do not understand the objection.
What are your thoughts on what I further wrote on Argument A and niche-seeking?
“So you can’t de-confound? I see you do not understand the objection.”
Of course I do, i was just correcting your misconception.
Do we agree that it’s not possible to de-confound genes from environment in regard to development?
“Do we agree that it’s not possible to de-confound genes from environment in regard to development?”
Well phenotype requires information from the environment and the genome, meaning it can never be separated, but you can control for environments as equal as possible which is why measuring variance instead of performing an actual causal analysis is pretty ingenious.
“as equal as possible”
Causal analysis > measurement of variance
“Causal analysis > measurement of variance”
A causal analysis is impractical and ultimately redundant on Irreducible feedback loops.
Read Lewontin 1974.
“1974.”
Hahahahaha.
No thanks, I’ll stick to current and accurate information.
Hahaha haha the age of something isn’t evidence against its falsity.
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/35/3/525/735798
“Hahaha haha the age of something isn’t evidence against its falsity.”
LOL, so tell me genius, What does that link have to do with my statements?
Read it and tell me.
Well? I’m waiting.
Did you read it yet?
it’s 100% OBVIOUS at this point that…
1. rr is a homosexual.
2. meLo is a homosexual.
3. the only resolution is that rr and meLo take turns plowing each other.
it’s sad that rr is gay.
i had such high hopes for our own mafioso.
Still waiting.
This thread is a bonfire. Someone should do plastic surgery on it.
My mom is developmentally delayed.
She was unable to give me emotional support nor supporting parental guidance. I was not delayed but I had no inner thoughts or a sense of self. I was just their most of the time not really mentalizing anything, empty and blank. Having an empty blank mind I spent most my time perceiving and feelings and using my unconscious to understand things.
Some think I have the (kitty autisms) but I just have a quiet mind. It is hard to communicate because I was never taught to be assertive and voice my opinion. I am better at this now but before I was isolated and kept to myself because I was easily intimidated. I don’t like crying. I was just quiet.
I wish someone was there for me.
Have you considered turning to Jesus?
it’s hard following Jesus.
you always need to do the right thing.
that’s hard, but I try.
”I wish someone was there for me.”
If intelligence is defined as manipulating the amount of information you can hold in your head to do something with it, understanding the causative result of doing that something with it. Then IQ tests are not circular.
First of all intelligence is heuristics, the first mental sanity test. To manipulate information without be self-manipulated you need firstly grasp logic and semantics.
I assume this is on-topic (re: evolution of schizophrenia since it goes with your schiz/auts theory; if not, I’ll put it in the other thread):
Therefore, schizophrenia, as we now know it, simply doesn’t have an evolutionary history
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10539-006-9042-x
Evo Psychiatry is garbage too.
pill’s only form of insanity is his belief in psychiatry.
schizophrenia = creativity + trauma
With no evolutionary history.
”With no evolutionary history.”
just so stories
”schizophrenia + trauma [during the birth]”
= rr
How much does the SAT writing portion correlation/load with verbal IQ on WAIS-IV?
I don’t think any such study has been done. In future please place SAT related questions in the SAT articles or the most recent off-topic thread.
Ockham’s razor.
IQ tests are legitimate because they’re tests of
1. deduction, ones ability to reason accurately to conclusions
2. the mental capacities (Such as working memory) that go into the deductions
3. correlates of those things mentioned above, ones vocabulary for instance is likely to be larger if you have a stronger memory which in turn effects ones deductive abilities, and if you have strong deductive abilities you’re liable to try and further improve them by utilising your curiosity to find knowledge, deducing correctly that improved deductive ability increases your odds of future life success.
Yes, there’s an error margin, yes, some of this will inevitably be culturally influenced. The existence of an error margin doesn’t preclude a general reliability.
Sometimes I read these threads and I can’t believe the extraordinary lengths people will go to in order to convince themselves of the illegitimacy of something that’s mostly legitimate.
Further, yes, it’s probably mostly genetic because the blueprint for the majority of our deductive mechanism, the brain and its ability to assimiliate new information is within our DNA.
It irritates me because IQ tests are not interesting or particularly dramatic tests of ability, the debate has people constantly discussing something that’s frankly boring.
That’s not legitimate. I mean, you can probably predict a lot of things and with more accuracy using someone’s zip code or the zip code of their parents.
I don’t find IQ tests purely useless as if they were non-informative of a person’s abilities for academic tasks , but it’s mere reification to claim they reflect a general property of one’s brain.
Further, yes, it’s probably mostly genetic because the blueprint for the majority of our deductive mechanism, the brain and its ability to assimiliate new information is within our DNA.
That’s wrong. The main factor that drives brain development is experience. Experience also changes gene expression through epigenetic. Don’t get fooled, the reason why genetic research does so poorly at finding genetic mechanisms influencing intelligence or behavioral traits isn’t that these traits have a very complex architecture as they pretend (they wouldn’t know, they aren’t able to understand a single bit of how just one locus would influence the phenotype). The reason why they find nothing is simply that there is nothing to find, it’s just not how the brain works.
Watch this video if you get the time.
Long story short: cognitive skills are dependent on emotional dispositions, which are shaped by experience. Adversity triggers emotional response mechanisms and depress one’s ability to regulate their moods and make the best use of their prefrontal cortex, the seat of the cognitive processes.
Emotional deficits are amenable to remedial intervention, the earlier the better. That said, it’s never too late. A person can only develop appropriate emotional dispositions if they grow up feeling safe and loved. Positive connections are key to healthy cognitive development, toxic stress and adversity wreck it.
DNA is not a blueprint.
That’s introduction playlist to the core findings of the science of early development. Other videos on the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University’s channel touch the topic of genetics briefly, basically saying that it’s not really relevant as far as brain development is concerned. Experiences turn genes on and off.
Further, yes, it’s probably mostly genetic because the blueprint for the majority of our deductive mechanism, the brain and its ability to assimiliate new information is within our DNA.
oh really? what gene or gene complex is responsible for it, then?
Ockham’s razor.
if your theory is that it’s genetic and tests something genetic, then no it isn’t ockham’s razor, sperglord.
there is NO data on genetics. and if you’re going to argue that correlations between parent and child based on equations that assume NO correlation between genotype and phenotype somehow shed any light on it, then you’re an imbecile.
Yes, there’s an error margin, yes, some of this will inevitably be culturally influenced. The existence of an error margin doesn’t preclude a general reliability.
VOCABULARY IS 100% CULTURAL AND IS THE MOST G-LOADED TEST. that isn’t ‘cultural influenced,’ that’s a smoking gun.
y’know
“Sometimes I read these threads and I can’t believe the extraordinary lengths people will go to in order to convince themselves of the legitimacy of something that’s mostly illegitimate.”
i don’t think any anti-hbder says IQ tests are completely garbage. they’re just garbage for most everything HBDers say they measure and are useful for.
and that they’re garbage doesn’t mean they aren’t useful or ‘the best we have.’
just keep it in perspective.
*genotype and environment
Nothing is 100% cultural, even vocabulary. Vocabulary is the product of human creativity, and it’s need a human being to be used, and any sane teacher can observe how variable in quantity and in quality their pupils are in vocabulary at least on their mother tongue.
Because a adopted etnically chinese boy will learn english and not mandarim in US it’s doesn’t mean this capacity is not innate. The capacity to memorize and learn, often in very intuitive way, how to associate words with real and abstract things is the essence, the hardware of communication skills, aka, ”verbal cognition”. The cultural products ”we” invented are the software, but our capacity to learn it is basically hardware.
1. deduction, ones ability to reason accurately to conclusions
no “official” IQ test measures that. the SAT, LSAT, GRE do.
You’re all looking to do a pointless ant-crawl to find data that we already know probably exists because of the narrow possibility of a more convenient explanation.
And Mug, don’t bother trying to convince anyone that the SAT/LSAT/GRE are somehow better at measuring deduction because you performed very well and it flatters your pride to think that you’ve proved yourself with your scores.
This is why Philosopher, with all his faults and neurosis sometimes has a better attitude than I see from you people, rather than attempt to rationalize a convenient alternate theory that contradicts the apparent reality that genes produce the better part of intelligence which in turn is measured fairly well by IQ, he just accepts the likely reality. He relies on his heuristics and doesn’t allow himself to be convinced of convenient nonsense.
Once again, I’m not a fan of IQ, I find it dull because IQ test questions have no stakes and the lack of stakes mean that success doesn’t come with a concomitant dramatic sense of reward and the process of taking one is sterile, static, nerdy and not at all dynamic.
rather than attempt to rationalize a convenient alternate theory that contradicts the apparent reality that genes produce the better part of intelligence which in turn is measured fairly well by IQ
If it’s so apparent, it shouldn’t be so difficult to find the genes and understanding the physiological process that they control.
gypsyman is british and therefore congenitally incapable of understand that behavior genetics is bullshit and ideology.
uk:
1. highest trade deficit in OECD.
2. 20% of economy is finance.
3. highest rate of mental illness (diagnosed) in OECD (except for shitmerica)
4. least social mobility in OECD.
the [redacted by pp, april 19, 2018] to the british [redacted by pp, april 19, 2018] is [redacted by pp, april 19, 2018].
Afro,
“If it’s so apparent, it shouldn’t be so difficult to find the genes and understanding the physiological process that they control.”
This. But HBDers say “you don’t need to find the genes, heritability!!” Though these estimates are derived from the flawed CTM, therefore are immediately suspect because the EEA is false.
Mugabe
“behavior genetics is bullshit and ideology”
This. Just like “evolutionary” psychology.
Touched a nerve did I?
Everyone can see your preening for what it is, I hardly wonder why you bother to continue to make such a self-serving case. Has the alcohol addled your brain so far that you think we can’t see your arguments are oriented entirely around protecting your pride?
You defend the tests you did well on, shit on the tests that you didn’t do so well on and it’s clear to everyone but you that you’re involved in confirmation bias.
Gypsyman,
What do you think of asymmetrical problem-solving?
I like open-ended problems.
But a person can only solve a large problem comparable to the map they can manipulate in their head.
Quant and quality intelligence are simply a distribution of quant asymmetrical patten maninpulation. So quality is just quant asymentrical pateren recognition complexity.
Langauge is the asymmetrical complexity of feedback looks derived from causal implications of symbol hierarchy.
Our brain was designed to live in an asymmetrical world. IQ tests or the one I took was looking for my ability to hold things in my map. I hold a distribution of information in my map but the implication is: All working together I m limited to effectively manipulating the world. Oher people can manipulate the world better than I can and achieve more complex goals. This is a problem for me because though I may be high in 2 or 3 distributions, they do not allow me to achieve my goal effectively because of the low ones.
I am trying to form a social network to achieve my goals. I am not smart enough nor technologically skilled enough to do it on my own.
My best skill is talking to people to improve my ideas and linguistic abilities to explain and reason.
project much?
word + word + word != thought.
as oprah said, your country and its people, “have to die”.
they’re not better at measuring deduction. they measure it and no self-described IQ test does.
name a single subtest that measures deductive ability on a self-described IQ test.
you know absolutely nothing about the subject.
@Mugabe
figure weights measure analogical reasoning
deductive
and
inductive logic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263563/
It is reported in the WAIS-IV Technical Manual that the Figure Weights task measures quantitative and analogical reasoning [8]. These types of Piagetian tasks routinely assess quantitative reasoning that can be expressed mathematically through deductive and inductive logic [3]. Arguably, Figure Weights is most similar to Piagetian balance beam tasks [6] although in the original Piagetian tasks on which Figure Weights was modeled, the examinee was often required to simultaneously integrate weight data with proportional distance from the fulcrum.
I scored 130 of figure weights
What do you think Ravens Matrices are? Number puzzles, word associations, arithmetic and so on. Deductions based on visual information and written information, they also test your ability to infer visual information with no explicit visual explanation, so they test elements of your inductive reasoning also.
Moreover, it’s not simply that they measure deduction but the abilities that actually go into creating deductive capacity, since deductions are the product of many kinds of reasoning intergrated, more often than not, many different mental skills used to solve more general problems.
The great thing about IQ tests vs other tests that measure mental skills is that they offer more abstracted questions, generally within the perfomance IQ section, opportunities to see whether or not you’re really capable of reasoning or you’re just regurgitating culturally aquired information rather than deducing and reasoning on your own initiative. They test your ability to infer information on your own initiative at a level other tests don’t even attempt to.
You can get in your feelings about it, and be frustrated, but that’s just funny to me. This is not something in life worth being frustrated about, but then again you’re not strong on priorities.
WAIS-4
The Speed at mental tasks PSI
Manipulation of items in head WMI
Using perception to reason PRI
Linguistic understanding VCI
My speed is 1 in 6 at the bottom of the population.
I have nothing in my head at all. Cannot mentally manipulate anything.
Percentage got better since 80 percent of my anxiety recently went away.
Langangauge: Homer Simpson: English spoke well me did. (I smart at it.)
lol at you guys ‘debating’ with gypsyman
here’s the article shoe puts in bold. very un-impressive. its characterization is misleading. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41539-018-0019-8
Because selective schools actively select for achievement and ability and passively select for SES, all of which correlate with EduYears GPS, we tested whether mean differences in EduYears GPS remained once controlling for these factors.
the same was done for GCSEs.
the result was that there was still an advantage but it wasn’t significant and it is concluded from this that private and grammar schools do not increase mean test scores of their pupils.
the GPS scores are pathetic.
EduYears GPS was positively correlated with each of the selection factors (see Supplementary Table S3), explaining 2.1% of the variance in ability, 5.2% in achievement and 6.6% in family SES.
what is meant by “ability”? These schools select their intake based on achievement and ability, assessed by an entrance exam.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41539-018-0019-8/figures/2
in fact it is mentioned in the new statesman article that the student with the GPS had test scores only a little above average.
Commenters like Race Realist are constantly arguing IQ tests are pseudoscience, but as Jordan Peterson cleverly noted, if you reject IQ, then you have to reject all of psychology, because IQ is the best validated construct psychologists have ever come up with.
So what? If IQ is the best of psychology, this is a very good reason to end the whole field.
And it’s not just psychology, psychiatry also suffers from the same problem of not using biologically valid constructs.
In this video, an ex-psychiatrist turned neuroscientist explains that psychiatry (and by extension, psychology) is the only field of medicine that doesn’t know the organ it pretends to heal. So they just create “disorders” as an assembly of similar symptoms which in reality reflect very different brain anomalies from person to person. That’s why treatments are in the best cases ineffective or harmful in the worst cases.
Afrosapiens is retarded but I agree with him on this point.
LMFAO
LOOK AT JORDAN PETERSON’S WIFE
HE HAS NO CREDIBILITY FOR FUCK’S SAKE
psychologists/psychiatrists are to modern times what high priests were to the middle ages
LMAO! Indeed, a guy with such an ugly wife can’t be taken seriously. A psychologist telling lawyers we’ll lose our jobs probably is one of the most hilarious and delusional thing I can think of. Psychology is actually living its last years as a respected field, it will only survive as some kind of modern times astrology.
your wife will be much uglier at age 55 afro-tard.
i’m sure in her youth she was suitable, but nothing that would justify Jordan Peterson any credence for his long-winded ‘mythology’ lectures about what is attractive to women.
you’re getting married afro…?
….
No way, her mom’s hot so I don’t worry.
What about Madame Mug of Pee?
still hot at 63.

you’re getting married afro…?
….
Yup, love is the reason. Then the wedding party and the gifts will be much appreciated, the married couple tax status too.
love is the reason
LOL! What? Don’t shield yourself from the power of love.
power of love = power of self-delusion = only gay men ever love women.
jewish fraud.
I think IQ tests measure academic aptitude the best.There are academic IQ tests and general intelligence measuring IQ tests, but even the ones measuring general intelligence g? by which i assume they mean real world intelligence capability, measure academic aptitude too but more broadly imo. A lot of people who score high on IQ tests also have more real world intelligence but it doesnt prove iq tests are the best measure of real world intelligence, but imo it only proves that those people have high academic aptitude and high real world intelligence.
i meant to say: but that doesnt ‘alone’ prove… in the fifth sentence.
Jordan Peterson: How Autism and Intelligence Connect
The problem with autism is getting abstractions.
Autistic people perceive the world as it is.
And can deal with concrete things.
But have difficulty generalizing across things.
Abstract a core theme instead of focusing on everything.
That is what Jordan Peterson says.
Abstraction helps sumize and distill universalized planning strategies.
Abstraction also creates a hierarchy of conceptual understandings of the world.
The world is not just the way how it is but it is the way how it could be.
I wonder if the following is possible:
The vast majority of genes for human intelligence are “health indicators”, in other words, signify genetic quality.
But a small number of genes of recent origin improve intelligence while being deleterious in other areas. Like the genes for autism…
“genes for”?
rr brings up a very important point.
those conditions which are inarguably genetic…what does “inarguably” mean in detail?
what is the penetrance of huntington’s disease genes, the paradigmatic case of “if you have the gene you will have the (bad) trait.”
the answer is NOT 100%. even if you live long enough.
that is, there are people who are diagnosed with HD in their 90s.
or so i have read.
Yes . Dutton writes that the child death rate going from 40% before Industrial age to less than 1% allows an incredible amount of mutations to occur. Only 10% of the actual stock would be alive iif natural selection level had staid the same.
They have on average disharmonious effect on people. Some may increase intelligence (as Pumpkin conjectured).
The number of left handedness , gay, trans, atheist , leftist, race exophilia and ethnofuge etc would be – following Dutton – consequences of it.
I think Denis Dutton (or was someone else in an article on the Unz Review) mentioned atheists have higher fluctuating body/face asymmetry than religious people, and thus likely have higher mutation load. Which makes sense, because most atheists I know are oddballs to some extent, regardless of intelligence, but especially lower IQ ones.
Yes he writes that in the book. It is quite offensive because the thinks anarchists, leftist, atheist, people with sexual fantasies, non ethnocentric people and all revolutionary people etc …. are the product of neo-natal high life expectancy that prevents mutant genes holder to die. He says that in 2 centuries, 90% of the people shouldn’t have existed (40% to 10% to 1% death rate for each century) .
Even if the dysgenic effects maybe there, I believe that without mutant genes, nobody would have discover the fire or how to hunt big animals or build weapons …
Lol, dutton itself is a deleterious guy, and he is ”religious”, i mean, retarded.
The percent of left handedness increases partly because left handed people no more has been ”trained” to write with right hand.
Most of what he says is conjectures.
But, it’s not totally wrong specially because if intelligence is being selected anyway so it’s expected it will have a variety of mutations.
A evolution happens with trials of ”error’ and ”corrections’ and obviously with novel evolutionary paths.
BUT…
maybe because most very healthy people are ”religious” it’s may more a product of this correlation: tameness and vulnerability to believe in magical bullshitism.
One of the fundamental reasons left handedness is more related with decreased ”fitness’ is because language is located in the opposite side of brain, in ”left side brain”, if i’m not spreading any incorrect information. So humans started to select for predominantly right handed people resulting in reduction of left handedness.
Left handedness may increases with demographic explosion and not necessarily with vaccine universalization.
I don’t buy totally that vaccines are mostly responsible to increase of mutational load in western populations.
But that pregnancy age+ reduction of number of children per couple, this possible second factor may creates a illusion of huge increasing of mutational load, more a artfact than a reality.
So we have less people in the new generations and more of this people was born later.
One of his hypothesis is that ”religious” thinking is adaptive but very sensitive to environment and that atheism/agnosticism is a deleterious version of ”religion”, of course, he is ”religious”, no problem there.
they’re all just-so stories