
Snooki and her ex-boyfriend were mocked for their height
Of course nowhere in the study do the scientists use the term “genetically inferior” but here’s what they actually say:
By studying height, a classic polygenic trait, we demonstrate the first human signature of widespread selection on standing variation. We show that frequencies of alleles associated with increased height, both at known loci and genome wide, are systematically elevated in Northern Europeans compared with Southern Europeans (P < 4.3 × 10−4). This pattern mirrors intra-European height differences and is not confounded by ancestry or other ascertainment biases. The systematic frequency differences are consistent with the presence of widespread weak selection (selection coefficients ~10−3–10−5 per allele) rather than genetic drift alone (P < 10−15).
Now you might say genetically short is different from genetically inferior, but when Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein said blacks might average genetically low IQs, here’s the reaction:
- Paul Krugman of The New York Times wrote “…Charles Murray, most famous for arguing that blacks are genetically inferior to whites.”
- Scholar Shirley Steinberg said “As educators, we cannot imagine a stronger disincentive to our non-White students than to be told that they are genetically inferior to Whites and there is nothing they can do about it.”
Some might say that genetically low IQ implies genetic inferiority because intelligence is such a valued trait. But height’s an extremely valued trait too. We metaphorically “look up” to people we admire and “look down” on those we disdain. “Standing tall” is a metaphor for dignity. Tall men earn more money, attract more mates, and are far more valued by sperm banks, so if calling blacks “genetically low IQ” is “racist” because it implies “genetic inferiority”, then calling Southern Europeans “genetically short” is racist too. Indeed I suspect most men would rather boost their height by a couple inches than boost their IQ by 10 points.
More interesting from a scientific perspective is this comment from Steve Hsu:
If the results on selection hold up this will be clear evidence for differential selection between groups of a quantitative trait (as opposed to lactose or altitude tolerance, which are controlled by small sets of loci). We may soon be able to conclude that there has been enough evolutionary time for selection to work within European populations on a trait that is controlled by hundreds (probably thousands) of loci.
Hsu hits the nail on the head because one of the arguments by HBD skeptics like our very own Afrosapiens is that populations differ primarily on genetically simple traits like skin colour, yet here we have groups as closely related as Northern and Southern Europeans showing genetic differences on a trait influenced by an estimated 10,000 SNPs.
Hsu quotes a blog called Genetic Inference stating:
Europeans differ systematically in their height, and these differences correlate with latitude. The average Italian is 171cm, whereas the average Swede is a full 4cm taller. Are these differences genetic? Have they been under evolutionary selection in recent human history?
It’s worth noting that a within sex difference of 4 cm equates to about 0.76 standard deviations within developed countries. An IQ difference of 0.76 SD equals 11 IQ points. If a 0.76 SD difference between groups as genetically similar as Italians and Swedes might be mostly genetic for a complex trait like height, then how big of a genetic IQ gap might we expect for far more genetically distant human groups?

J.P. Rushton, on group differences
Jews are part of the Southern European orbit. Southern Europeans are closer to West Asians than Nordics. Just look at the Italians who look like Iranian and vice versa, and Balkan Euros who look like Turks.
I am 7 cm below the average.
That’s a deviation of 1.33
my height quotient is 80
Southern Europeans (the direct heirs of the Roman Empire) had a great civilization in the past for almost 2000 years, absorbed more genetic material and are now “dysgenic”, which is a natural progression of the rise and fall of man, hence their current inferiority status.
Northern Europeans created what is the modern world, and are now going through the same phase of rise and fall. It appears that they are weak when it comes to assimilating their subjects. Maybe not, if you take capitalism and globalism as their cultural markers.
snooki isn’t italian. she’s chilean. so she’s part native american. the inca are very short.
height is much more heritable than IQ.
the tallest people in europe live in the dinaric alps. many of them are muslims.

from the pov of life expectancy tall is genetically inferior. but not by much. the tall men of iceland were the longest live male national population recently. but all esle being equal the tall are shorter lived. they have higher cancer rates due to higher IGF.
The tall and burly Bosnians were coveted as Janissaries for the Ottomans.
Separating correlation & causation is tricky.
Here’s a study saying tall live longer:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-53440/Why-taller-people-live-longer.html
It might be that size, not height per se, shrinks life span. For example lion argues
muscular people die young & tall people have more muscle, so it could be the muscle that’s killing them, not the height.
“Here’s a study saying tall live longer”
The lungs of tall people don’t function as efficiently as short people. Four additional inches of height in post-menopasual women coincides with an increase in all types of cancer risk, by 13 percent.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/early/2013/07/25/1055-9965.EPI-13-0305
http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/2/97.full
Taller people in London are more likely to suffer from respiratory and cardiovascular disease, and when you think about how blood has to pump around a larger frame/body then it makes sense.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1060066/
It’s actually pretty well-known that taller people live shorter lives:
In 1990, a study of 1679 decreased men and women from the general American population supported these findings. In the present study data on the height, weight, and age at death of 373 men were obtained from records at the Veterans Administration Medical Center, San Diego, CA, USA. Men of height 175.3 cm or less lived an average of 4.95 years longer than those of height over 175.3 cm, while men of height 170.2 cm or less lived 7.46 years longer than those of at least 182.9 cm. An analysis by weight difference revealed a 7.72-year greater longevity for men of weight 63.6 kg or less compared with those of 90.9 kg or more. This corroborates earlier evidence and contradicts the popular notion that taller people are healthier. While short stature due to malnutrition or illness is undesirable, our study suggests that feeding children for maximum growth and physical development may not add to and may indeed be harmful to their long-term health and longevity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1600586
“For example lion argues
muscular people die young & tall people have more muscle, so it could be the muscle that’s killing them, not the height.”
Who is Lion of the Blogosphere (don’t answer that, I know who he is) and what type of knowledge does he have to make that assessment because it’s bullshit:
Muscular strength is inversely and independently associated with death from all causes and cancer in men, even after adjusting for cardiorespiratory fitness and other potential confounders.
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a439
Although a minority of older US adults met ST recommendations, guideline-concordant ST is significantly associated with decreased overall mortality. All-cause mortality may be significantly reduced through the identification of and engagement in guideline-concordant ST interventions by older adults.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26921660
Muscular strength was inversely and independently associated with all-cause mortality even after adjusting for several confounders including the levels of physical activity or even cardiorespiratory fitness. The same pattern was observed for cardiovascular mortality; however more research is needed due to the few available data. The existed studies failed to show that low muscular strength is predictive of cancer mortality.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25921473
Where did he say that? He’s horribly wrong.
He said it many times, most recently here I think. I’m not citing him as an authority, just as something to consider. In my personal opinion the relationship is curvilinear, in that muscle increases life span up to a point, and then starts decreasing it. I have no scientific evidence, but it’s just my impression based on the fact that a lot of really huge dudes seem to die young and based on the fact that a muscular body needs to pump more blood, if I’m not mistaken.
As you can see, he’s horribly wrong. And he cites a paper that directly supports my contentions here on height and longetivity as well:
Findings based on millions of deaths suggest that shorter, smaller bodies have lower death rates and fewer diet-related chronic diseases, especially past middle age. Shorter people also appear to have longer average lifespans. The authors suggest that the differences in longevity between the sexes is due to their height differences because men average about 8.0% taller than women and have a 7.9% lower life expectancy at birth. Animal experiments also show that smaller animals within the same species generally live longer.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024320502025031
Muscle contributes to health and longevity.
a problem with looking at very old people and saying “see how short they are” is that they reached their adult height at a time when everyone was shorter. i wonder if anyone has corrected for this.
the foremost explanation for why women live longer than men is that men are bigger, women are smaller.
a problem with looking at very old people and saying “see how short they are” is that they reached their adult height at a time when everyone was shorter
Not only that, but people shrink with age
“a problem with looking at very old people and saying “see how short they are” is that they reached their adult height at a time when everyone was shorter. i wonder if anyone has corrected for this.”
A shorter person will still live a longer life on average.
“Not only that, but people shrink with age”
Right and one who is shorter than another in their 20s will live a longer life on average.
the data exists somewhere. controlling for height and lean mass, do women still live longer than men?
steve shoe had a post claiming that “shrink with age” is a myth.
i’m with steve.
It’s more like people stoop over with age.
Steve Shoe doesn’t know what he’s talking about. What kind of references did he provide for his claim? It’s well-known that people shrink with age. Just because Shoe is a physicist doesn’t mean he knows anything about the human body and how it works.
when anything is “well known” your bullshitometer should beep.
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/04/height-loss.html
…However, of 24 subjects for whom true height loss could be calculated, 7 had gained height, 9 were unchanged and only 8 had lost height since age 22 years. Self-report leads to over-reporting of height loss,…
Here is the paper that Shoe is talking about:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark_Pearce/publication/7811598_Self-report_overestimates_true_height_loss_Implications_for_diagnosis_of_osteoporosis/links/0912f512dc6bc747b6000000/Self-report-overestimates-true-height-loss-Implications-for-diagnosis-of-osteoporosis.pdf?origin=publication_list
Meh. Height generally begins decreasing at age 40 at about half an inch per decade, so measuring just 2 times (at age 22 and age 50 like in the cited study) is not too good. Though I do agree that, like with weight, self-reports are garbage for height assessments.
See this paper for a better, more robust analysis with more measures at certain ages:
For both sexes, height loss began at about age 30 years and accelerated with increasing age. Cumulative height loss from age 30 to 70 years averaged about 3 cm for men and 5 cm for women; by age 80 years, it increased to 5 cm for men and 8 cm for women. This degree of height loss would account for an “artifactual” increase in body mass index of approximately 0.7 kg/m2 for men and 1.6 kg/m2 for women by age 70 years that increases to 1.4 and 2.6 kg/m2, respectively, by age 80 years.
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1093/oxfordjournals.aje.a010106
I reiterate: Steve Shoe doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
“It’s more like people stoop over with age.”
Right, people have shitty posture with age (which is completely preventable unless that too is ‘genetic’) but if you’re on a stadiometer (especially mine) I’ll make you stand as straight as possible. People do shrink with age. One single analysis with 2 measures is not sufficient to see height decreases as can be seen above.
height is much more heritable than IQ.
I don’t know about much more. In the Bouchard study, height had a heritability of 0.86, and composite IQ had a heritability of 0.69 to 0.78 (depending on the test) (see table 4). Of course this was just within the U.S. I think. If you’re right about IQ being more sensitive to reaction norms, your proposed study of twins separated internationally might favour height even more. It seems IQ and weight have about the same heritability locally.
Then think that twin studies are highly flawed, including untenable assumptions and h heritability estimates will be substantially lower.
https://www.madinamerica.com/2013/03/the-trouble-with-twin-studies/
Also see Schonemann and Bailey:
Click to access 10.1023%40a%3A1018395229872.pdf
Click to access 10.1023%40a%3A1018358504373.pdf
^^^ this one discusses Rushton’s fallacies on heritability.
Bailey 1997 also discusses problems with Bouchard 1990 as well.
Bailey 1997 also discusses problems with Bouchard 1990 as well.
I’ve already agreed that Bouchard overestimated heritability (though perhaps not by as much as his critics think), but the problems with his study would apply to both height and IQ. In other words, the heritability of both was likely overestimated, but the relative difference in heritabilities should still be about right.
This quote from Schonemann is highly relevant. Heritability estimates for animal traits in completely controlled environments come nowhere near heritability estimates for animal traits:
To illustrate this concretely, consider some heritabilities of various measures of farm animals listed in\ Falconer (1960, p. 167f). For body-weight, they cluster
around 30%, as do those for egg and milk production. The estimates for body fat of pigs and length of wool of sheep are somewhat higher, near 50%. However, none
of the heritabilities of these variables with tangible economic consequences come close to those routinely reported for mental tests. For example, the heritability
of ‘IQ’ (without further specification) stood solidly at 80% for more than a century, until it was recently reduced to 60% (20%). This still surpasses almost anything found in the animal kingdom.
“but the relative difference in heritabilities should still be about right.”
Meaning….? Heritability implies nothing about causation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223161/
Meaning….?
Meaning that if the heritability of height in the Bouchard study is only 16% greater than the heritability of IQ, it might still be only 16% higher if the true heritabilities of both were overestimated. My point was IQ is not necessarily much less heritable than height (as Mug of Pee said), even if both are overrated. The animal studies are suggestive but not conclusive because their genes and environments are so different from ours.
“it might still be only 16% higher if the true heritabilities of both were overestimated”
True heritabilities were overestimated and estimates from molecular genetics are better than the highly flawed twin studies.
“The animal studies are suggestive but not conclusive because their genes and environments are so different from ours.”
They are suggestive because they completely control for environment. The genes of all eukaryotic organisms work in the same way, too. Either way, most reared apart studies have twins who stay together for a considerable amount of time and where they’re adopted away to are still similar environments compared to where the co-twin goes.
Again, height and eyekew are different. One is a real physical measure, the other is an arbitrary construct.
The ability to reach the top shelf of my bedroom is an arbitrary construct, but is still influenced by genes.
No, it’s not arbitrary, and that’s not how we measure height either. What’s arbitrary is measurment units. Inches and centimeters are arbitrary, but the correlation between your height in centimeters and your height in inches is always 1.
So what makes a construct arbitrary?
What makes a construct arbitrary is how you define what you intend to measure. Eyekew test designers select items so that those people with the best grades and knowledge score better and then they call it intelligence. It’s an arbitrary way to define intelligence as educational and cultural capital.
If I define intelligence as rational thinking and ability to overcome cognitive biases in order to make the right decisions, it will be another test that doesn’t correlate with eyekew and yet comes much closer to intelligence understood as behavioral adaptability.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rational-and-irrational-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/
A dumb/unwise person is arguably one that falls for all these cognitive biases and always end up making wrong, unproductive decisions and analyses. Rather than one that can’t explain the similarity or differences between two words.
What makes a construct arbitrary is how you define what you intend to measure. Eyekew test designers select items so that those people with the best grades and knowledge score better and then they call it intelligence. It’s an arbitrary way to define intelligence as educational and cultural capital.
Not all IQ tests were made that way. And one can make an IQ test based on entirely objective criteria such as the degree to which items correlate with g, brain size, or DNA, and you’d get pretty much the same predictive power. Also, something can be entirely arbitrary and still heritable.
There are no psychometric tests that are calibrated on brain size or DNA. And even then, we’d select or exclude items just because of the correlation and without proving causation.
As for “g”, it is only an artifact of item selection. One can’t calibrate a test on “g” because “g” doesn’t objectively exist on it’s own. “g” is only the inter-correlations that arose from item selection.
As for heritability, it is meaningless unless some fallacious assumptions have not been ruled out in the sample.
Number one is equal environment assumption, if identical twins experience more similar environment environments, the excess similarity is not due to their shared genes.
And there is associative mating, the excess MZ twin similarity is not due to genetics because there no (or reduced) genetic differences between MZ and DZ twins for a given trait.
For instance, if the mother and the father both carry the AA genotype, the children will carry the AA genotype too regardless of zygosity, so the difference between MZ pairs and DZ pairs is entirely environmental.
There are no psychometric tests that are calibrated on brain size or DNA.
But there could be. The more g loaded a test, the more it correlates with other IQ tests, and the higher its correlation with brain size and DNA on average.
And even then, we’d select or exclude items just because of the correlation and without proving causation.
Without disproving it either.
As for “g”, it is only an artifact of item selection. One can’t calibrate a test on “g” because “g” doesn’t objectively exist on it’s own. “g” is only the inter-correlations that arose from item selection.
If that were entirely true, it would be very easy to create a test that correlates zero or negatively with the g of conventional tests, and this has proven to be extremely difficult, despite many attempts by IQ skeptics. The only cases I’m aware of are certain creativity tests that credited ridiculous answers or tests that require esoteric knowledge about ghetto subculture, neither of which would pass a common sense test of what measures intelligence. Also, if g were as arbitrary as you say, g loading wouldn’t predict the degree of correlation with brain size and heritability measures (imperfect as they are)
As for heritability, it is meaningless unless some fallacious assumptions have not been ruled out in the sample.
Number one is equal environment assumption, if identical twins experience more similar environment environments, the excess similarity is not due to their shared genes.
I agree but this is only an issue with heritability studies that compare MZ with DZ twins. The gold standard are studies of MZ twins raised apart, though even these have problems like placement bias in adoption, as RR has noted
For instance, if the mother and the father both carry the AA genotype, the children will carry the AA genotype too regardless of zygosity, so the difference between MZ pairs and DZ pairs is entirely environmental.
Again, this is an issue for the MZ vs DZ study design, not the MZ raised apart design
But there could be. The more g loaded a test, the more it correlates with other IQ tests, and the higher its correlation with brain size and DNA on average.
But there aren’t, because we don’t need a psychometrics test to measure brain size or genetic similarity. There are already reliable measures of them.
Again, “g” loadings only exist because most tests are calibrated on very similar education-related variables.
Without disproving it either.
That’s irrelevant. The point of making associations is to explain causation in the end. I can make many unrelated variables correlate with each other by cherry-picking positively correlated items.
If that were entirely true, it would be very easy to create a test that correlates zero or negatively with the g of conventional tests, and this has proven to be extremely difficult, despite many attempts by IQ skeptics. The only cases I’m aware of are certain creativity tests that credited ridiculous answers or tests that require esoteric knowledge about ghetto subculture, neither of which would pass a common sense test of what measures intelligence. Also, if g were as arbitrary as you say, g loading wouldn’t predict the degree of correlation with brain size and heritability measures (imperfect as they are)
That IQ and brain size are moderately correlated is expected since brain size is correlated with health and nutritional status which in turn are influenced by socio-economic status and education, which are the factors that IQ tests are designed to correlate with. It’s a cascade of intended correlations, which are just correlations. And in the cascade, only socio-economic status and health and nutrition as well as health and nutrition and brain development have demonstrated causal relationships.
I agree but this is only an issue with heritability studies that compare MZ with DZ twins. The gold standard are studies of MZ twins raised apart, though even these have problems like placement bias in adoption, as RR has noted
These studies are extremely rare and most of the correlations you cite come from MZ/DZ studies. Not to mention publication bias which probabably further inflates the real heritability.
But there aren’t, because we don’t need a psychometrics test to measure brain size or genetic similarity. There are already reliable measures of them.
The point is not to measure brain size or genes. The point is to show that g is rooted in biology by showing that the higher the g loading, the higher the biological loading. Is it proof? No. Is it evidence? Yes.
Again, “g” loadings only exist because most tests are calibrated on very similar education-related variables.
You’re choosing to believe education causes g. HBDers argue g causes education. Neither side knows for sure because causation’s so hard to know.
That’s irrelevant. The point of making associations is to explain causation in the end.
They do explain it, you just don’t like the explanation and thus believe a different one. Neither side has proof, but there’s strong evidence that g is at least partly caused by physical differences in the brain.
I can make many unrelated variables correlate with each other by cherry-picking positively correlated items.
Then the reverse should be easy: cherry-picking items to create tests that don’t intercorrelate and yet no one’s been able to do this afaik without creating tests that seem ridiculous to most people. And it’s true that items are often cherry-picked but this is just done for efficiency. You improve a test’s reliability and internal consistency by cherry-picking items that intercorrelate, but tests would still intercorrelate if the items were chosen at random. For example a vocabulary test based entirely on items randomly selected from the dictionary and an arithmetic test that required people to multiply numbers entirely generated at random by computer, would still positively correlate.
That IQ and brain size are moderately correlated is expected since brain size is correlated with health and nutritional status which in turn are influenced by socio-economic status and education, which are the factors that IQ tests are designed to correlate with.
That’s unlikely to be the primary explanation because moderate brain size IQ correlations have been found even among good Canadian university students, an overwhelmingly upper-middle class educated sample in a country with virtually universal health care.
These studies are extremely rare and most of the correlations you cite come from MZ/DZ studies. Not to mention publication bias which probabably further inflates the real heritability.
I try to cite only MZ apart heritabilities because I agree that the equal environment assumption is a problem, and I agree MZ apart studies are rare, but I doubt publication bias is a big factor here because it’s so hard to find MZ twins apart that you’re unlikely to not publish the study just because it found low heritabilities, and given the liberal academic bias, there’s incentive to debunk HBD.
The point is not to measure brain size or genes. The point is to show g that g is rooted in biology by showing that the higher the g loading, the higher the biological loading. Is it proof? No. Is it evidence? Yes.
This is not how the scientific method works.
You need to pass the test of experimentation to make any association scientifically valid.
For instance, it is well known that taking eyekew tests multiple times increases scores. If eyekew is biologic, you must be able to identify modified biological functions at retest in the same way we can notice various biological changes after repeated physical exercice. If retest causes no such changes, then eyekew is independent of biology and likely represents acquired skills caused by familiarity with test material.
They do explain it, you just don’t like the explanation and thus believe a different one. Neither side has proof, but there’s strong evidence that g is at least partly caused by physical differences in the brain.
They don’t, you don’t have a demonstrated model of how any feature of the brain leads different people to respond differently to any test question.
cherry-picking items to create tests that don’t intercorrelate and yet no one’s been able to do this afaik without creating tests that seem ridiculous to most people.
You can’t make lots of tests that don’t correlate with “g”. “Sounding ridiculous to most people” is arbitrary, so is the notion that a test tests intelligence only if it is correlated to positive social outcomes. It’s an unwarranted assumption that intelligence lead to success, and that anything that’s related to success is a measure of intelligence. It’s only an attempt to legitimize social hierarchies.
You improve a test’s reliability and internal consistency by cherry-picking items that intercorrelate, but tests would still intercorrelate if the items were chosen at random. For example a vocabulary test based entirely on items randomly selected from the dictionary and an arithmetic test that required people to multiply numbers entirely generated at random by computer, would still be positively correlate.
Because people are mostly exposed to arithmetic and vocabulary through education and cultural capital, so obviously, you’ll find covariance. All those who have tried to design culture-fair tests acknowledge these relationships and have come to the conclusion that it was near-impossible to have a culture-fair test that would predict school achievement and occupational status. Again, the main issue here is the arbitrary expectation that an intelligence test has to predict those things as if they were pure materializations of intelligence.
That’s unlikely to be the primary explanation because moderate brain size IQ correlations have been found even among students at good Canadian university students, an overwhelmingly upper-middle class educated sample in a country with virtually universal health care.
Moderate correlations means low explanatory power. Moreover, I doubt all those variables were rigorously controlled for.
I try to cite only MZ apart heritabilities because I agree that the equal environment assumption is a problem, and I agree MZ apart studies are rare, but I doubt publication bias is a big factor here because it’s so hard to find MZ twins apart that you’re unlikely to not publish the study just because it found low heritabilities, and given the liberal academic bias, there’s incentive to debunk HBD.
Twin and eyekew research have a strong conservative bias. As of 2018, we can say the field is almost dead and the few holding on to it are related to the infamous Pioneer Fund and Lynn’s Ulster Institute for Social Research.
For instance, it is well known that taking eyekew tests multiple times increases scores. If eyekew is biologic, you must be able to identify modified biological functions at retest in the same way we can notice various biological changes after repeated physical exercice. If retest causes no such changes, then eyekew is independent of biology and likely represents acquired skills caused by familiarity with test material.
Conventional IQ tests are only valid for people taking the test for the first time, or after enough time has passed. No competent psychometrician is under the delusion that practice effects reflect gains in real intelligence. One of the reasons Arthur Jensen tried to convince people to switch to chronometric testing is those tests are so quick and simple that practice effects fade fast as you reach your biological limit, and once you do, any further changes should indeed reflect biological changes like head injury, dementia, brain growth from childhood to adulthood, drugs and alcohol, etc.
They don’t, you don’t have a demonstrated model of how any feature of the brain leads different people to respond differently to any test question.
But it’s generally accepted in biology that intelligence is largely caused by the number of neurons and their connections. Even the scientist you and RR both endorsed (Suzana Herculano-Houzel) argues this, so the moderate correlation between IQ and brain size is consistent with accepted scientific theory, since bigger brains have more neurons on average.
“Sounding ridiculous to most people” is arbitrary,
More specifically, afaik the only tests that failed to correlate with g fail basic psychometric criteria. For example the BITCH test which measures knowledge of black culture is culturally biased against whites as could be proven by the rank order item difficulty in whites and blacks. If two groups find different items easy or hard, the test is considered culturally biased. On conventional IQ tests, U.S. blacks and whites find the same items hard or easy, even though the average white scores higher.
The other type of test that failed to correlate with g are certain “divergent thinking tests” (“creativity”) where for example, you’re asked to name as many uses for a brick as you can think of in 5 minutes. These are not considered psychometrically valid because there’s no objective standard of proficiency. For example, if someone says a brick can be used to comb his hair, is that correct? If you can’t objectively score the test based on right or wrong answers, it’s not scientific.
Because people are mostly exposed to arithmetic and vocabulary through education and cultural capital, so obviously, you’ll find covariance. All those who have tried to design culture-fair tests acknowledge these relationships and have come to the conclusion that it was near-impossible to have a culture-fair test that would predict school achievement and occupational status. Again, the main issue here is the arbitrary expectation that an intelligence test has to predict those things as if they were pure materializations of intelligence.
It’s natural to expect smart people to meet conventional standards of success because those are the things most of us want, and since smart brains work better, we should expect them to figure out how to reach their goals, especially goals directly related to learning such as school achievement. But I agree that inferring the causation can be tricky, since both test scores and career success can be influenced by SES background which is why some have done studies comparing siblings in the same family.
Moderate correlations means low explanatory power. Moreover, I doubt all those variables were rigorously controlled for.
Do you honestly think differences in nutrition explain much of the brain-size variance in students at one of the best universities in Canada? Moreover a head-size-IQ correlation was found in a huge sample of siblings raised in the same home, making socio-nutrional explanations most unlikely indeed. And we should expect only a moderate correlation between brain size and IQ because so much of the brain is devoted to non-cognitive functions like emotions, motor and sensory functions, body regulations, and there are neurological properties besides just size that likely affect cognition. Of course brain size only “explains” about 20% of the IQ variance so it’s possible the remaining 80% is cultural, but I doubt it.
Because people are mostly exposed to arithmetic and vocabulary through education and cultural capital, so obviously, you’ll find covariance.
And yet they find high correlations between IQ and tests completely devoid of education or cultural capital such as chronometrics. The only culture bias is video game experience, but this effect can be removed by having folks practice so much that they hit their biological limit, and evidence suggests the correlation is largely intact.
Conventional IQ tests are only valid for people taking the test for the first time, or after enough time has passed. No competent psychometrician is under the delusion that practice effects reflect gains in real intelligence.
Spurious retest effects go hand in hand with spurious pretest effects. There is no objective way to decide that results at first trial are more real than results at subsequent trials. If there is a biological limit, it must be inescapable, just like one’s height is the same no matter how many times you measure it in the same day.
But it’s generally accepted in biology that intelligence is largely caused by the number of neurons and their connections.
There is conclusive evidence that the number of neurons in the neo-cortex is a better predictor of a species’ intelligence than either absolute or relative brain size. Brain size is not a good proxy for the number of neurons. And other more qualitative than quantitative aspects of brain tissue and chemistry are at play. And various nutritional, health and emotional factors have been satisfyingly associated with developmental outcomes.
If two groups find different items easy or hard, the test is considered culturally biased. On conventional IQ tests, U.S. blacks and whites find the same items hard or easy, even though the average white scores higher.
So if blacks and whites find the same items equally difficult, there is no difference in ability and the differences arise from the testing process which involves test-motivation and focus. Both are well studied factors influencing test performance. And retest effects may be due to test familiarity making the process less tedious.
It’s natural to expect smart people to meet conventional standards of success because those are the things most of us want, and since smart brains work better, we should expect them to figure out how to reach their goals, especially goals directly related to learning such as school achievement.
What we all want is money, but people differ a lot on how they want to get it. And there are definitely huge differences on people’s drive to achieve in conventional ways. It’s well known that US black culture rejects formal education as well as many other mainstream value, that’s also true of many other working class groups. People want money, that doesn’t mean they value the cultural norms of the upper classes.
Do you honestly think differences in nutrition explain much of the brain-size variance in students at one of the best universities in Canada?
Yes, unless you show me the study so I can see how these variables were dealt with.
Moreover a head-size-IQ correlation was found in a huge sample of siblings raised in the same home, making socio-nutrional explanations most unlikely indeed.
Same here, I need to see the study to have an opinion. A lot of health and nutritional differences remain within families. If you have siblings, you know well that not all of them were as frequently sick, nor had the same eating habits and that your mother lived her pregnancies differently. A household is not a controlled environment, and it is not the main environment that one experiences while growing up, schools and peers being much stronger influences.
And yet they find high correlations between IQ and tests completely devoid of education or cultural capital such as chronometrics.
This is not devoid of cultural and educational influences. Staying focused on a boring task is one thing schools teach, then having the motivation to do well on such tasks is yet another thing.
Spurious retest effects go hand in hand with spurious pretest effects. There is no objective way to decide that results at first trial are more real than results at subsequent trials.
Well culture reduced IQ tests are designed to measure how well you adapt to novel problems, so once you’ve already taken the test, it’s no longer novel. I realize it was never 100% novel to begin with, since folks with cultural capital have been exposed to testing situations in general and been exposed to objects, pictures and diagrams that resemble test items, and have been better trained to concentrate and try hard, but once you’ve taken the test, you’ve had direct exposure to the specific task and specific items, which completely subverts the point of the test. Yes, this distinction is somewhat arbitrary, but you draw the line where you can. Also, IQ scores are calculated with reference to the standardization sample, and the standardization sample is taking the test for the first time, so the less one’s test conditions resemble the norming sample, the less valid are one’s result.
If there is a biological limit, it must be inescapable, just like one’s height is the same no matter how many times you measure it in the same day.
But if a test is measuring novel problem solving however imperfectly, by definition a problem is only novel once. Height tests have other variables that invalidate them such as whether you’re wearing shoes or not, which has no known effect on IQ.
There is conclusive evidence that the number of neurons in the neo-cortex is a better predictor of a species’ intelligence than either absolute or relative brain size.
Please cite the specific correlations so we can see how much better it is.
Brain size is not a good proxy for the number of neurons.
If brain size is not a good proxy for whatever neurological properties matter, then it’s even more impressive that brain size can predict IQ moderately well.
And other more qualitative than quantitative aspects of brain tissue and chemistry are at play. And various nutritional, health
No one denies that
So if blacks and whites find the same items equally difficult, there is no difference in ability and the differences arise from the testing process which involves test-motivation and focus.
The key point is the rank order of ease or difficulty. If within the same subtest, item A is harder than item B in whites, but item A is easier than item B in blacks, it’s considered culturally biased. There could still be a difference in ability though because the passing rates for both items might be higher in whites than blacks, but it’s only considered biased if the rank order of passing rates differs. For example, people with genetic disorders causing undisputed low genetic IQ will score lower on tests, but the rank order of items they pass within subtests should not differ from the normal population unless the subtest is biased.
I do think there are more subtle forms of bias against blacks on IQ tests that are harder to objectively detect, which is why I now think the black-white IQ gap in the U.S. is only about 50% biological, however we’re getting off-topic.
What we all want is money, but people differ a lot on how they want to get it. And there are definitely huge differences on people’s drive to achieve in conventional ways. It’s well known that US black culture rejects formal education as well as many other mainstream value, that’s also true of many other working class groups. People want money, that doesn’t mean they value the cultural norms of the upper classes.
I agree, but I’d still expect intelligence to correlate with conventional success in the general population, especially the general white population.
Yes, unless you show me the study so I can see how these variables were dealt with.
It wasn’t dealt with, but I don’t think it’s likely to be much of a confound in an upper middle class sample, but you clearly disagree, so moving on.
Same here, I need to see the study to have an opinion. A lot of health and nutritional differences remain within families. If you have siblings, you know well that not all of them were as frequently sick, nor had the same eating habits and that your mother lived her pregnancies differently. A household is not a controlled environment, and it is not the main environment that one experiences while growing up, schools and peers being much stronger influences.
True, but your point was that brain size only correlates with IQ because both are proxies for social class (brain size via nutrition and IQ tests via cultural capital). Siblings reared in the same home have the same social class.
This is not devoid of cultural and educational influences. Staying focused on a boring task is one thing schools teach, then having the motivation to do well on such tasks is yet another thing.
If you’re not focused or motivated you’re not going to practice hard or long enough for your scores to stabilize into a baseline reflecting biological potential. Btw racial differences in chronometric scores might not be valid, because I doubt the samples had enough practice trials for their growth curves to stabilize.
everything afro says in his post above is FALSE.
sad!
those freest from bias, those with the most sensitive bullshit detectors will invariably have high IQs. the converse is not true.
g is a much more general faculty than bullshit sensitivity.
IQ stands or falls with g.
g may vary from one population to another and because g is defined for a population those with the highest g are those who are most intelligent in the most conventional sense within that population.
but if g loadings of various tests don’t vary much between populations and if those who are brilliant at one or a few things and average or below at everything else are rare then g is a measure of something real. that doesn’t mean it’s genetic in the unmediated cause and effect sense however.
when i think of afro, or any french citizen, i think of this…

it is curious that “poppers” were never made illegal in the US.
interesting how either:
1. afro is peepee, OR
2. peepee approved my comments before she approved afro’s.
3. OR both.
the anti-IQ crowd can after the validity of IQ tests or after the heritability stat.
the former is bullshit and makes them look stupid.
the latter is the abruzzi spur and the bottleneck, the easiest way up.
but very very hard and harder than the first if the first actually conquered the savage mountain.
the former route can at best claim that binet intended his test for the sole purpose of distinguishing the normal from the retarded and that the difference between normal and retarded is the only real difference.
in genetic terms this may be true. this is what swanknasty claimed.
[redacted by pp, feb 10, 2018]
1) Snooki is not Italian, she is Chilean and adopted by Italisn.
2) IQ is not a quantitative trait.
3) Italians are getting taller.
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2013/06/italians-are-getting-taller.html
4) What’s the IQ gap between North and South Italy? I think we should discuss that point in depth.
Do you consider height a quantitative trait?
Yes.
You’d find this interesting:
Major findings in mouse models and in human genetic diseases support this model. Modulation of DNA methylation are candidate to mediate environmental influence on epigenetic traits. This may help to explain progressive height changes over multiple generations, through trans‐generational heredity of progressive DNA methylation patterns.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208652/
The lady doth protest too much methinks.
height is relative to the population. what is tall in japan is short in iceland.
what women want is not a tall man but a man who is at least 4″ taller than she is.
If it is more of the contrary, stature will go down after alimentention cease to have compensating effects . Population height will go down because reproduction is negatively correlated with women stature (except in rare places like the Netherlands) and not correlated (or mildly positively correlated with men’s stature )
i think the name means “you’ll be so ‘relaxed’ that you can do it with black guys.”

unless peepee puts denzel washington at the top of her list of most influential living people (of all time…hahaha!) i don’t think i can support her blog anymore. sad!
I’m not sure how my high g makes me intelligent.
Creativity is like a generator in the brain.
I don’t have much internal feedback.
The tallest people in Europe – many on the planet apart some small Sudanese and Malian tribes – are from herzegovnia. But as the people are divided among many countries and religions , nobody knows . But a stastitican told me toung men weee on average 187 cm there (184 Netherlands and 178 in France and USA for people born in 1985´) . Herzégovine people are the tallest since more than 2 centuries contrary to Dutch who were quite short in 19th century.
my urine has been analyzed by numerous labs. the NIH has had two nobel laureates analyze my urine.
none have discovered the compound or compounds which made it turn green.
it was yellow until october of last year.
what happened at that time?
a small weird looking child took me for a urinal at a cineplex. that’s all i can think of. he himself had green urine. i thought it was cute at the time, just wiped it off with that super thin public toilet paper. i assumed he was on some medication.
reminds me of a similar situation in branston missouri. i wasn’t there for his show, but lee greenwood used the same restroom. and he had green wood. no kidding. he had to stand two meters from the urinal. and it was green.
sad!
Hahaha I’m dying!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5374818/ and with a beautiful picture 😊
I find this article racist.
Pumpkin sounds like a nazi here. I wonder would he say if canadians were genetically inferior if evidence came out. Poor RR. For once, the racism is on the other shoe.
it’s time to nuke canada.

So now that the vicious racist RR has clear evidence that Italians are inferior to canadians, will he now do a mea culpa and apoogise to all the blacks, native americans, asians, arabs, papua new guineans and eskimos he slandered again and again on his blog?
I for one, welcome our new canadian masters.
ALL HAIL CANADA.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-BYVHSEPll6c%2FTVoI7wUKE7I%2FAAAAAAAAAFg%2Fnvg_CiVU71s%2Fs1600%2Fcanada_flag.gif&f=1
The symbol of genetic superiority.
AS PROVEN BY EVIDENCE RR.
I for once, never doubted that pumpkin was superior to race, for the record.
Such a genetically superior song.
the maghreb(i)ans are closer to europeans than the mashriq(i)ans.
mashriq(i)ans would never do such a thing. they don’t have the balls.

My appearance is identical to Zidane’s except I’m not bald.
This video game characterization of Zidane looks shockingly similar to myself, actually. Almost identical, down to the expression.
the real reason i’m anti-HBD. confession.
my parents were students at sciences po. they were rich by inheritance but they were depressed after having a child who looked like them. so they gave me up and adopted afro.
my adoptive parents were coal miners from eastern kentucky.
afro grew up to call them racist losers.
i grew up to know that afro was into dudes.
what a world.
i was adopted before i was weened. my mother’s breast milk was grey. she had to work deep in the coal mines. i still have a lot of coal in me. literally.
nothing compares to the romans.
good and bad.
technically the roman empire lasted from the crossing of the rubicon to the fall of constantinople. 49bc to 1453ad. but really it lasted from 100bc to 400ad. either way longer than any other empire.
did it disappear? did it go extinct?
it sounds fanciful, but the roman church has been around for 2,000 years and it still has the most adherents of any denomination. while borders have changed and so many states have been founded and dissolved, it remains.
the vatican is not in tokyo.
the truth is eternal.
what city is called “the eternal city”?
look it up.
So what does this mean? Since height is multi-loci like IQ, not controlled by a few genes, it must mean height IS a measure of genetic superiority.
Would this make Nordics the most genetically superior in the world? Much taller than Asians but just as smart. And Jews are kinda short.
The point of the article is just to point our the double standard. When murray said blacks might be genetically low IQ, he’s a racist who thinks blacks are genetically inferior, but other scientists says Southern Europeans are genetically short & they get a pass
You are yourself saying East Asians are genetically superior because they have highest IQ.
Not because they have high IQ per se, but because, like rushton, i believe in progressive evolution
But charles Murray never said anything about evolutionary progress, he merely said there might be a genetic difference in IQ
You’re the one equating taller stature with genetic superiority. I could equate darker skin and malaria resistance with genetic superiority since they are actually advantageous for survival in some contexts.
But these scientists don’t talk about superiority of any kind. They just state the fact that SNPs that they found to be associated with taller height have higher frequency in Northern Europeans.
Rushton never provided any evidence of this kind and was righteously called a racist for spreading racist falsehoods.
I could equate darker skin and malaria resistance with genetic superiority since they are actually advantageous for survival in some contexts.
That’s my point. People talk about all kinds of racially genetic differences but only HBDers get smeared as racist because the critics equate IQ with superiority.
Because they don’t provide genetic evidence. It’s simple.
But people have been speculating about all kinds of genetic differences between races without much evidence for decades without being called racist. There’s something about IQ that inflames people.
Because those who have been speculating about genetic differences in intelligence have done it to justify social inequality and against evidence to the contrary.
But if you don’t justify the social inequality, everyone assumes blacks are being held back by racism, and whites have a right to defend themselves from that charge.
It’s not a charge, it is a fact that blacks couldn’t build much wealth until the late 1960s and that multi-generational wealth is a major factor for social advancement.
Now one can argue it’s not the whole story, US blacks surely have many self-destructive tendencies, like single motherhood. IIRC, one stat stays that black households headed by married couples are virtually on par with white ones in terms of SES. That’s one thing to consider too.
But inventing genetic stories is not defending oneself from accusations of racism, it’s rationalization of racism and it’s unfounded.
Not all HBDers are politically motivated. Rushton I admit likely was, but Jensen was a liberal part-Jew who got interested in IQ because of the high number of blacks being diagnosed as mentally retarded, even though they didnt look or act disabled. At first he believed the tests were culturally biased but after meticulous research and statistical investigations, he concluded it was genetic and was simply honest about his views.
Even James Flynn who disagrees with Jensen, has the highest respect for his integrity & cites Jensen’s research as inspiring his own
No, Jensen made no meticulous research whatsoever, he didn’t even question the validity of eyekew tests as measures of intelligence, he only made up more stories about them.
If only people knew the truth about ‘IQ’ then they wouldn’t get so upset over it. It’d the genetic determinists who give muh IQ a bad name. The ones who believe IQ is destiny.
Ken Richardson upends the ‘no bias to IQ tests’ showing there is social class history built in through item analysis and selection by the test constructors.
Ken Richardson upends the ‘no bias to IQ tests’ showing there is social class history built in through item analysis and selection by the test constructors.
I would need to see specific examples. Items on the Wechsler were largely selected by trying them on people of known IQ, and certain items were chosen because they did a good job discriminating between normals and “mental defectives” as they were called at the time. Of course there’s a circularity in this in that previous IQ tests are used to validate new IQ tests.
Why are averages used to infer superiority? The most you can claim is that one race is superior /on average/ to another in any specific area. A very uniform and homogeneous race like Han Chinese is clear to have an advantage insofar as averages go. Once we start looking at the highest possible outliers you will see clearly that there’s a reason why despite being the smartest race /on average/ they haven’t performed as well as would otherwise be predicted. The most intelligent Han Chinese don’t diverge as much from the average as the most intelligent members of other races. They don’t produce many great people.
The question is, does IQ follow a normal distribution? It really doesn’t.
Ironic how the tables have turned on rr after years of his venom . Honestly rrs demise is a lesson in humility and how science is always finding out new things, even things that are the opposite to what people thought.
I bet this is the greatest day in jasons life .
Pumpkin what does science say about how we should relate to inferior humans?
Interesting how this blog attracts interest from all groups and races. I must say it is excellent being able to see how people of a particular tribe/race relate to these topics. Weve had just about every race comment on this blog with the exception of eskimos.
Funnily enough, I don’t think you could have these conversations face to face in real life either.
One of the things weve learned about globalisation is that it doesn’t work and systematically reduces living standards for just about everyone except the Chinese. I often am surprised economists haven’t noticed that the average american is now poorer than Homer Simpson was 30 years ago but keeps insisting that globalisation will come up roses anytime now.
Relative to average world living standards, the average Russian is poorer than under communism as well.
It makes you think there is a conspiracy to man all the economics departments and institutes with (a) hacks (b) clowns (c) aspergers people.
Anyone objectively looking at the numbers would think – boy I can blame this on Microsoft office being invented (which should actually raise living standards)…or I can blame it on open borders with lower IQ, lower impulse control people. Hmmm. Can’t figure it out.
indeed. afro likes free trade. he proposes higher taxes on the few who have benefited from globalization. the US is a richer country, but its people are poorer. this is a problem of distribution not productivity. the average frenchman is better off than he was 30 years ago. wage stagnation is an anglo-amaerican problem, like child molester priests.
according to chomsky the european proletariat is much less opposed to free trade than the american, because they have a much stronger safety net. there is no solidarity in the US and no trust. it’s a nightmare presided over by a sociopathic elite.
I remember 10 years ago people were saying China was going to become more prosperous than the US. I even had colleagues saying moving to Shanghai was like moving to London in 1810 or New York in 1910.
If you believe in HBD, the outlook is good for China. I expect China to reach Korean living standards eventually and in the longer term maybe Japanese.
But if you look at the numbers, the average Korean/Japanese person is much less well off and works much longer than a european.
The marxists argued basically this was because asian v white terms of trade are unfair but this doesn’t explain how these same asian economies used export led growth.
No, I think the reason they are poorer is because they don’t redistribute wealth enough so they need demand from foreign consumers to prop up their economies. Their rulers are lower empathy than white rulers.
On the other hand, Asian Master isn’t willing to replace his whole population with latino coolies to shave more surplus.
In the longest run, the question of standards of living will come down to who has the wisest Master. If I had to bet on a welfare state with open borders vs a mercantalist state with closed borders, i’d probably bet on the latter. It all comes down to whether (((western master))) convinces eastern master to follow the neoliberal lead. I think the asians are too smart. Donald Trump is right – most countries have smart leaders, except the West.
“Their rulers are lower empathy than white rulers. ”
That’s not true, it’s just that Caucasoids are much more likely to rebel while Mongoloids are a lot more subservient. It’s the same reason why wealth in MENA countries is very well distributed and why MENA have much higher living standards (15k per capita as opposed to China’s 10k per capita) than in most Asian countries. The rulers are obligated to redistribute the wealth or they will have a big problem on their hands.
The future of globalism is Asians and Mexicans who will work for two dollars without complaint, a corporate dream. No MENA or European is going to accept those conditions, they prefer death or war. I prefer to be herding goats in the desert to working someone else’s factory for $2 an hour to make him rich.
Still saying whatever.
North Africa and the Levant are only slightly better off than Subsaharan Africa, South and Southeast Asia. Worse off than China and Latin America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#/media/File:2014_Gini_Index_World_Map,_income_inequality_distribution_by_country_per_World_Bank.svg
Income inequality is higher than in most European countries, Japan and South Korea.
You see, I won’t let go with you. As long as you want to be racist, I’ll be here to recall you the mediocrity of your people.
“I’ll be here to recall you the mediocrity of your people.”
Afro, are you aware that I am English, Chinese and Algerian-Jewish?
“Worse off than China and Latin America.”
As for your map, Algeria appears to be green like Italy and the UK and China red. Egypt is even more equal than Algeria and Italy are.
“Countries’ income inequality (2014) according to their Gini coefficients measured in percent: red = higher than average, green = lower than average inequality.”
You are aware that red means higher income inequality, right? You’re not very intelligent.
Nominal GDP isn’t real wealth. Please read up on GDP PPP.
“For example, suppose that Japan has a higher GDP per capita ($18) than the US ($16). That means that Japanese on average make $2 more than normal Americans. However, they are not necessarily richer. Suppose that one gallon of orange juice costs $6 in Japan and only $2 in the US; then $6 in Japan exchanges to only $2 worth of US goods, since the Japanese can only buy 3 gallons while the Americans can buy 8 gallons. We have decided to use 1 gallon of orange juice as a reference basket of goods. Therefore we can create a PPP index for Japan in terms of the US as 1/3. Therefore, in terms of orange juice, the Americans are richer, and in this example the US has a GDP (PPP) of $16, unchanged since it is the reference currency. Japan, however, has GDP (PPP) of only $6 since the $18 in Japan can only buy 3 gallons of orange juice, which represents only $6 of US goods.”
“Afro, are you aware that I am English, Chinese and Algerian-Jewish?”
I didn’t realized you were a respectable anglo-jewish chinese Fenoopy.
From your posting I thought you were some muslim berber trying to manipulate the white gentlemen of this blog into thinking north africans were descent people and legitimize race mixing with e1b1b kabyles and all sorts of “white arabs”.
All my apologies.
You are incredibly racist, it’s quite stunning really.
At least I don’t consider bantus to be subhumans I think all human races are equals in humanity and deserve to have the same rights.
right. europe is post-christian when it isn’t christian. china people don’t care about their fellow china people.
The best way to design a constitution would be to design a way for (a) an aristocracy find it hard to form and (b) to suppress psychopathic behaviours in politics.
In latin america they have these conquistador descendants who still rule most countries overtly and secretly with CIA help. These countries would be richer with land reform and welfare states.
I’d be very much in favour of constitutional inheritance taxes, revoking citizenship for people that move funds offshore but continue to live in the nation and making third level education 100% merit based.
I think that would stop aristocratic ossification.
you’ll also need first past the post replaced with proportional representation and exclusively public finance of political campaigns. this would mean a revision of the first amendment in the US unfortunately, but there’s no other way. those who control mass media have too much power.
Mugabe, PP, and Gondwana, here is my piece on height, mortality and shrinking with age. Steve Shoe is wrong. Most data shows that shorter people live longer and avoid numerous maladies compared to taller people. So manlets should be rejoicing. Shorter people live longer than taller people and suffer fewer maladies, and we do shrink as we age, a good amount.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2018/02/12/height-longetivity-and-aging/
However, animal and human data suggest that larger body size independently reduces longevity.
Compared with northern Europeans, shorter southern Europeans had substantially lower death rates from CHD and all causes.2 Greeks and Italians in Australia live about 4 years longer than the taller host population …
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071721/
That settles that argument.
i was the one who said that height is bad for your health. ceteris paribus.
shoe’s source showed merely that height did not shrink between age 20 and 50 give or take a few years.
the sources of shrinkage likely vary with “life history”. if someone spent age 20 to age 90 lying down his height would shrink less.
next up is an “evidence based” study of mortality in alcoholics.