Lamarckism is the theory that organisms evolve not through survival of the fittest as Darwin argued, but by passing on acquired traits to their descendants. For example, you might naturally have a very scrawny body build, but if you spend all your time lifting weights, not only will you become more muscular, but you will biologically pass those muscles on to your son, and if he too lifts weights, he’ll pass on even more muscle to his sons, and in many generations, we’ll evolve into a race of incredible hulks.
Lamarckists believed that giraffes evolved long necks, not because only the longest necked giraffes survived (as Darwinists believe) but because by stretching their neck to reach food, they made them longer, and that extra length was somehow biologically inherited by the next generation, who would in turn stretch their necks even further, etc.
Lamarckism was famously discredited when a scientist chopped off the tails of mice for multiple generations and the mice were still born with tails. This convinced scientists that you could not biologically pass acquired traits down to your children. Lifting weights everyday might turn a scrawny nerd into a hulking power lifter, however his son will still be born with the same scrawny build dad had before he started lifting weights, and the only way we would evolve into a race of hulks would be for the most naturally muscular people to have the most kids each generation, as Darwinists argue.
However with the rise of epigenetics, many people, including our very own Race Realist, have been arguing that Lamarck was somewhat right after all. To oversimplify, epigenetics refers to chemical tags that are placed on the letters of our DNA sequence, that turn certain genes on or off, and some believe that not only can these tags be influenced by our life experience, but they can be passed on for many generations.
However when Race Realist tried to push this view at the West Hunter blog, scientist Greg Cochran would have none of it. This is not surprising because Cochran’s skepticism towards such theories is well documented (see the 15 min mark in the below video):
Also expressing skepticism is scientist Richard Dawkins (see 2:40 mark in below video), though Race Realist feels this is largely because epigenetics undermines his “selfish gene” theory.
A major 2014 article by Edith Heard and Robert Martienssen, published in the journal Cell, was every bit as skeptical as Cochran and Dawkins. According to a summary of the Cell article by science writer Alex B. Berezow:
…characteristics many researchers assume to be the result of epigenetic inheritance are actually caused by something else. The authors list four possibilities: Undetected mutations in the letters of the DNA sequence, behavioral changes (which themselves can trigger epigenetic tags), alterations in the microbiome, or transmission of metabolites from one generation to the next. The authors claim that most epigenetic research, particularly when it involves human health, fails to eliminate these possibilities.
It is true that environmental factors can influence epigenetic tags in children and developing fetuses in utero. What is far less clear, however, is whether or not these modifications truly are passed on to multiple generations. Even if we assume that epigenetic tags can be transmitted to children or even grandchildren, it is very unlikely that they are passed on to great-grandchildren and subsequent generations. The mammalian epigenetic “reprogramming” mechanisms are simply too robust.
Therefore, be very skeptical of studies which claim to have detected health effects due to epigenetic inheritance. The hype may soon fade, and the concept of Lamarckian evolution may once again return to the grave.
I dont think its not one vs the other i think both could have happened. For eg: Blond haired blue eyed people must have survived the vit d deficiency in europe the best (survival of the fittest…darwinism) and they must have passed them to their off-spring(blond haired and blue eyes can be passed to their off-spring) lamarckism. There may be examples where just one applies (but if one was sufficient only one may happen).
Many of this example have extraordinary nature, i mean, if environment itself was responsible to eyes color changes among europeans why, in the same or similar environment, east asians don’t changed their color eyes**
I think east asians/north east asians can somehow absorb vit d without having to go blond or develop blue eyes.
Because they have light skin. Light skin is an adaptation to low UV environments.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/04/09/the-evolution-of-human-skin-variation/
I’m curious on why Nordics and Northeast Asians looks so different despite evolving in seemingly similar environments ?
I was going to write something on that, but I’m waiting for Phil78 to answer some of my questions.
”I’m curious on why Nordics and Northeast Asians looks so different despite evolving in seemingly similar environments ?”
Different populations = different evolutionary paths= different historical selective pressures…
When caucasians and mongoloidians split …
Would be interesting to understand how light eyes evolved in other species.
One of the theories is that ”nordics” [europeans] has selected light eyes, hair and skin because they are aesthetically attractive, firstly in women [in all human populations, females are more fair in their skins than males] and this traits were been passed to males.
Maybe we have aesthetic sexual selection versus crude sexual selection, it’s maybe explain why beauty is relatively subjective.
Aesthetic sexual selection is a sign of high social sophistication because people are selecting the traits that no have direct relevance to the survive [but indirect impact to reproduction] for example, blue eyes, even in some aspects this traits maybe disadvantageous or very advantageous in exotic/narrow environments, for example, very fair skin.
Crude sexual selection seems more primary/primitive and mean the selection of exacerbated antagonistic traits, for example, big sexual organs.
Misconception. Lamarckian evolution is passing down acquired traits during the lifetime of an organism to the next generation through germ line cells. Cells are Intelligent, as I’ve argued ( https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/12/our-view-of-intelligence-needs-to-change/ ; https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/07/13/microbial-intelligence-and-intelligent-physiology/ ). Our cells in our body are Intelligent. They drive our physiological systems. Now think of predictable and unpredictable environments. If survival came down to just what’s in the genome, then most species would have died out. That species can change morphology with little to no genetic change lends credence to the idea.
Your example of blue eyes and blonde hair being passed down isn’t Lamarckian, it’s still Darwinism. A good example of epigenetic inheritance is stress. Mothers can ‘pass’ their stress through DNA methylation to their offspring through the germ line. Though as far as I know epigenetic inheritance has only been noticed in 3 generations in mammals. Jablonka and Lamb do admit in their book Evolution in Four Dimensions that there is no evidence for epigenetics in evolution if I recall correctly (I’ll get a quote later) but the verbal arguments are sound and logical.
Re the microbiome PP: that too can be affected by epigenetics. The microbiome is our second genome. It can up or down regulate genes, turn genes on or off. That’s something that should be studied in conjunction with epigenetics. Nutrition can also affect the microbiome and epigenetics as well. More on this later.
conceptual art for beginners.
Secular increasing on height without direct selection of those who are taller may be a example of epigenetic trends** Or it’s more due the own nature of this trait/height* And… it was proven that no have any selection of this nature*
We tend to believe that there are exclusively dominant and recessive genes//or whatever… but maybe we also have intermediary genes, between dominant and recessive or at least a spectrum between dominance and recessivity. In the case of height we know that it’s a long-development broader variable. Seems height appear to be sexually-related feature and male-genes maybe more related to higher height than ”female-genes”… Today we have more autism than schizophrenia.
“However when Race Realist tried to push this view at the West Hunter blog, scientist Greg Cochran would have none of it.”
Did you see his immaturity? Saying things about genes that are being disproved (Cochran: “the part that contains the instructions/program that determine development and specify everything”) The ‘blueprint’ for organisms doesn’t lie in the genes. Genes are slaves for the system. Genes are used by the system to carry out processes. I don’t think Cochran understands that. His dumb attacks and appeal to authority are meaningless. What authority does he have? He’s a physicist not a biologist. Just because you write a book and have a blog doesn’t mean you’re an expert. Data and logical arguments matter, not pieces of paper.
DNA/genes are not the only unit of selection. This scares neo Darwinists, they can’t imagine how more than DNA can be selected for. Look up niche construction theory, something I’ve pushed here before, and you’ll see how organisms construct their own environments also leads to new pressures and change. Milk consumption is a good example.
The giraffe example is funny. Because Lamarck’s views were much more nuanced. Darwin’s theory of pangenesis is very Lamarckian.
More thoughts on Waddington later. Thoughts on that Cell paper later as well.Those studies don’t prove that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance isn’t real.
Biology is ready for a new revolution. Science progresses one funeral at a time. Jablonka and Lamb along with Denis Noble and James Shapiro are at the forefront of a new integrated biology. We need to extend or replace the Modern Synthesis. Neo Darwinists hate it. Jerry Coyne is incoherent in his ramblings. Denis Noble said to Jerry Coyne that if he wants to contribute to the debate then be should write and publish papers on it in journals instead of posting hoot articles. Ouch…
So a nobody 29-year old who’s still stuck in undergrad studying biology knows more about DNA than a well-published and respected researcher in genetics and physics???
Althougj Mugabe doesnt like Cockran either ill use his expression: Sad!
How did RR get back on this blog he was banned!!!
Even though we still disagree on many things, I thought he should return because:
A) he writes on-topic comments
B) he cites sources
C) he discusses scientific issues
D) he doesn’t start race wars
LOL@ D)
Appeal to authority. Try again. He said numerous wrong things about the nature of the gene. Data and arguments matter, not pieces of paper.
You’re appealing to authority when he doesn’t even have authority in biology since he’s a physicist. Sad!
You can see that Cochran didn’t address anything. In his other comment to me he just repeated his incorrect assertion and called me stupid, dumb etc. I love love love ad hominem attacks. It just shows how the person argues when provided with things they’re not able to rebut.
I lost a lot of respect for Cochran with his juvenile attitude. Just because you publish a book and a few biology papers and have PhD in physics doesn’t mean you’re a biology expert. I have the citations to back up every single thing that I said.
I wonder what Jayman has to say about transgenerational inherited epigenetics. He’s a HUGE Cochran fan.
G-man, here’s a very recent article in Harvard magazine that agrees with Cochran.
“I wonder what Jayman has to say about transgenerational inherited epigenetics. He’s a HUGE Cochran fan.”
He says it’s ridiculous. It threatens the neo Darwinists’ paradigm that the gene is the only unit of selection.
“very recent article”
But if fed regular mouse food, the mother gives birth mainly to obese, yellow-furred offspring in poorer health. This is clearly an epigenetic effect, Michels said, but it is not transgenerational.
This is wrong.
Furthermore, the epigenetic state at Axin(Fu) can be inherited transgenerationally after both maternal and paternal transmission. This is in contrast to epigenetic inheritance at the murine agouti-viable yellow (A(vy)) allele, which occurs through the female only.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12601169
I don’t understand why people make easily disproved claims.
Even in laboratory animals, Michels said, no researcher has proven transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. Despite claims to the contrary in the most distinguished scientific journals, she asserted, every experiment to date could be explained by in-utero exposures or other mechanisms.
See C. elegans.
In closing, Michels emphasized that epigenetic inheritance may exist—but it has not been proven.
It has been proved in smaller organisms. There are mechanisms for it to occur in multicellular organisms as well. I agree that much more research needs to be done to substantiate claims and arguments, but the current evidence suggests that the gene is not the only unit of selection. Neo Darwinists can’t handle that. They’ll have no choice but to accept it soon and replace or extend the Modern Synthesis.
Furthermore, the epigenetic state at Axin(Fu) can be inherited transgenerationally after both maternal and paternal transmission. This is in contrast to epigenetic inheritance at the murine agouti-viable yellow (A(vy)) allele, which occurs through the female only.
How many generations did they look at it? Karin Michels’s (the s following the ‘ is not a mistake) argument is that effects that look like transgenerational epigenetic inheritance are actually just intrauterine exposure. For example women who smoke during pregnancy tend to have obese grandkids and this is often thought to be an example of epigenetic inheritance (since smoking alters your epigenome), however Michels argues it could just be grandma’s smoking damaging her fetus during pregnancy, and since the female fetus already contains reproductive cells, the future granddaughter is damaged in the process, thus for females you need at least four generations to prove epigenetic inheritance.
It has been proved in smaller organisms. There are mechanisms for it to occur in multicellular organisms as well.
But there are also mechanism to prevent it. As Michels argued, mammalian cells endure two full cycles of demethylation during reproduction. It’s not that she denies transgenerational epigenetic inheritance in mammals, she just says there’s no evidence for it, with the exception of genomic imprinting, but afaik that’s a non-environmental epigenetic effect.
Yep, I’m pretty sure Jayman along with Cochran has come out repeatedly against epigenetics. I need to read more about it myself to make up my own mind.
“Yep, I’m pretty sure Jayman along with Cochran has come out repeatedly against epigenetics. I need to read more about it myself to make up my own mind.”
They’re wrong that genes are the only unit of selection and heredity. JayMan is a genetic determinist, even though he won’t admit it. Genetic determinism makes no sense:
In advancing this argument from uniqueness the President’s Council makes two key mistakes.
The scientific mistake is the familiar assumption of strong genetic determinism, with the unsupportable conclusion that two individuals with identical genomes will exhibit identical phenotypic expression. Not so. On the basis of the significant physical and behavioral differences found between identical twins[51], as well as for the multitude of reasons discussed above, it seems a near certainty that even genetically identical clones would exhibit very different traits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524970/
The paper takes apart any ‘genetic determinist’ claims. Dogmatists like JayMan et al on the ‘power’ of genes are wrong.
Check my new reply to Cochran. Do you see how childish he’s being? I lost all my respect for him. …….
“How many generations did they look at it?”
I am not aware since the paper is not on Sci-Hub (and I can’t find anything in any reference material I have but TEH has been noted in other organisms for tens, hundreds of generations). But the point with the agouti mouse studies is that feeding them methylated food changed the expression of the genes; the mice were genetically identical, but one was yellow and fat while the other was thin and brown.
“effects that look like transgenerational epigenetic inheritance are actually just intrauterine exposure.”
You’re aware that HBDers would look at something like intrauterine exposure and presume that the effect is ‘genetic’ when the ‘environment’ caused it right? I’m aware of intrauterine exposure and am aware of looking at the 3rd/4th gene to see about epigenetic inheritance.
Intrauterine smoking exposure alters the developmental pattern of DNA methylation for a fetus.
https://epigeneticsandchromatin.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13072-017-0111-y
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/218/1/71
If anything, this lends credence to ‘bursts of evolution’ ala Gould and Eldredge.
Here’s something interesting:
We also showed that higher DNA methylation levels of the PON1 region are associated with lower cognitive test scores in early childhood for both sexes.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-00384-5
Also read this review:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40610-016-0030-x
I am aware I am talking about two things in this comment: epigenetic tags from the environment during embryonic development along with transgenerational epigenetic inheritance.
So intrauterine exposure effects the epigenome, which would change gene expression without altering the genome.
But the problem here is that most transgenerational epigenetic effects are supposedly the result of intrauterine exposure to differing things. We know that maternal exposure to things while she’s pregnant negatively effects the fetus by changing it’s epigenome—that’s epigenetics.
Read this paper:
“Canalization by Selection of De Novo-Induced Mutations”
http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2017/05/31/genetics.117.201079
You’re aware that if mechanisms like this are discovered in humans that it’s over for HBD right?
Here is evidence for transgenerational epigenetic inheritance in humans.
https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/21/2/194/785656
Epigen obesity may be helping the obesity epidemic too
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3527
“As Michels argued, mammalian cells endure two full cycles of demethylation during reproduction. It’s not that she denies transgenerational epigenetic inheritance in mammals, she just says there’s no evidence for it, with the exception of genomic imprinting, but afaik that’s a non-environmental epigenetic effect.”
Yes genomic imprinting is a version of TEH. Non-histone proteins and covalent histone modification contribute to genomic imprinting. Genomic imprinting would be an environmental epigenetic effect, and there is a chance for it to be transgenerational.
If it can pass the germline, then it will end up affecting the fetus. See here for discussion on that for humans.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959437X04001443#aep-section-id12
Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance has now been convincingly demonstrated in several different eukaryotic organisms, for example, maize, yeast, Drosophila and mice.
But the point with the agouti mouse studies is that feeding them methylated food changed the expression of the genes; the mice were genetically identical, but one was yellow and fat while the other was thin and brown.
Right, but we’ve known that environment can affect phenotype for a long time. This adds a layer of complexity to how it occurs, but doesn’t change the big picture.
You’re aware that HBDers would look at something like intrauterine exposure and presume that the effect is ‘genetic’ when the ‘environment’ caused it right?
Well Richard Lynn argued back in 1990 that prenatal nutrition largely caused the Flynn effect, so they’re aware in theory of prenatal effects, but in terms of how heritability is traditionally measured (phenotype correlation between identical twins raised apart), prenatal effects, especially if they affect the epigenome, will be counted as genetic because identical twins have very similar epigenomes at birth (though if they’re raised apart their epigenomes diverge in adulthood)
We also showed that higher DNA methylation levels of the PON1 region are associated with lower cognitive test scores in early childhood for both sexes.
I don’t doubt the epigenome affects IQ, but it’s gets tricky because even though the cell decides what genes to turn on and off, what caused the cell to behave that way in the first place?
I am aware I am talking about two things in this comment: epigenetic tags from the environment during embryonic development along with transgenerational epigenetic inheritance.
Right, and it’s important to distinguish between epigenetic tags from the environment (smoking) and those that are genetically programmed to occur. Only the former are a threat to HBD, and if they’re inherited, a threat to Darwinism too.
So intrauterine exposure effects the epigenome, which would change gene expression without altering the genome.
Right
But the problem here is that most transgenerational epigenetic effects are supposedly the result of intrauterine exposure to differing things. We know that maternal exposure to things while she’s pregnant negatively effects the fetus by changing it’s epigenome—that’s epigenetics.
Yes, smoking during pregnancy can change the baby’s epigenome, but as you know, that’s not a case of epigenetic inheritance, because the baby didn’t inherit a damaged epigenome from mom, mom simply damaged the baby’s epigenome by smoking. Most science papers confuse these two concepts according to Michels.
Thoughts on that Cell paper later as well.Those studies don’t prove that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance isn’t real.
But what it may suggest is that it’s still just a hypothesis, and doesn’t yet rise to the level of a scientific theory.
One of the best studied organisms in regards to transgenerational epigenetic inheritance is C. elegans. Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance has been noted for numerous generations in this organism.
Transgenerational inheritance of lifespan is specific for the H3K4me3 methylation complex and is associated with epigenetic changes in gene expression. Thus, manipulation of specific chromatin modifiers only in parents can induce an epigenetic memory of longevity in descendants.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10572
A persuasive argument I’ve heard is that this occurs so that the offspring can have some ‘memory’ of the environment.
Here’s Eva Jablonka, one of the spearheads of the EES:
http://epigenie.com/epigenetics-in-evolution-with-dr-eva-jablonka/
Eva Jablonka responds to criticism here.
http://extendedevolutionarysynthesis.com/epigenetic-inheritance-evolution-interview-eva-jablonka/
Biology is ready for a revolution. Science progresses one funeral at a time.
Mechanisms such as DNA methylation are genetically inherited and dont actually oppose the modern synthesis. As you said epigenetic changes lasting more than a few generations is non-existent in almost any species, genes are still the coding that controls all phenotypic expression within an organism. Epigenetic is closer to Darwinism than lamarckism.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375926/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385474/
In regards to the first link, there was a new paper published last week about this:
The increasing evidence that EDCs exposures may produce epigenetics marks
associated with epigenetic phenotypes that can extend beyond a current population exposed to EDCs to future generations is persuasive.
https://t.co/vo2GrqPp53
In regards to the second link here is Jablonka and Lamb on soft inheritance.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1415-47572008000300001
I’m aware that the second link you cited covered it. I’ll have more thoughts on this later when I get to my computer.
The first link also holds a source that states:
“endocrine-disrupting chemicals exert direct epigenetic effects in exposed fetal germ cells, which are corrected by reprogramming events in the next generation. Avoiding transgenerational inheritance of environmentally-caused epigenetic aberrations may have played an evolutionary role in the development of dual waves of global epigenome reprogramming in mammals.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4376074/
Genes are more like instructions than causes. Sometimes these instructions get mistranslated.
This doesn’t even get into the true role of genes, as I’ve been trying to explain to Cochran. Genes aren’t causes on their own.
Here is the latest review: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/brv.12322/pdf
There are 3 main mechanisms so far methylation, histone modification and sRNA. Model organisms include worms, fish, insects and mammals, also bacteria(not in the paper). Longest recorded in paper is worms over 14 generations, in bacteria its over 100 generations. You can see Denis Noble talk about it on his talks here at 33:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3WenGjyokg .I suggest watching the whole thing though.
The counter arguments against EES and epigenetic inheritance is failing badly hence the flood in epigenetic studies and interest across the fields: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5534947/
One argument is that genetic variation is causing the epigenetic effect, but can you prove the variation got there first? Nope.
Here is evidence of epigenetic and phenotype showing up before the genetic variation. http://tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15592294.2015.1062207
This is only the beginning :P.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue, seeing as how I already addressed the fact that all inheritance is through DNA. An epigenetic affect is an alteration of genomic expression therefore it’s still gene-centered.
Only 14 generations in worms?
From your last link
“In the event the germline (sperm) has an altered epigenome that escapes reprogramming following fertilization, the embryonic stem cells derived will have an altered epigenome. All cell types and tissues derived from the stem cells will have alterations in their epigenomes and gene expression.”
http://cel.webofknowledge.com/InboundService.do?mode=FullRecord&customersID=atyponcel&IsProductCode=Yes&product=CEL&Init=Yes&Func=Frame&action=retrieve&SrcApp=literatum&SrcAuth=atyponcel&SID=5Co7aoeukMblzLKbOgH&UT=WOS%3A000292295000007
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034163?dopt=Abstract
‘The first link also holds a source that states’
The new review I linked addresses these concerns.
But I’ll get into that later (this is also a huge area of interest to me, re endocrine disrupting chemicals because of how it impacts our hormones).
“Genes are more like instructions than causes. Sometimes these instructions get mistranslated.”
Glad to know we agree. DNA does nothing on its own. Read:
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1878/3001
It blows up the Neo-Darwinist paradigm.
“I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue, seeing as how I already addressed the fact that all inheritance is through DNA. An epigenetic affect is an alteration of genomic expression therefore it’s still gene-centered.”
No it isn’t. It is *not gene-centered*. This is typical Neo-Darwinist re-framing, to make it seem like all inheritance is through DNA. This is slowly being overturned.
No one is stating that epigenetic tags do not get erased. Erasure is a good adaptive mechanism to see what works and what doesn’t. Epigenetics takes away the gene-centered claim of evolution by Neo-Darwinists because the environment can shape the genome.
This can then cause directed mutation (controversial) which is the complete opposite of ‘gene-centered’. Hell, see that physiology/morphology paper I cited earlier.
Watch the Denis Noble video. Read the studies he cites. You’ll then see that even if the epigenetic tags get erased in one organism, this doesn’t mean that the mark is erased in the whole population.This can then change the DNA itself.
http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/485.short
We found that none of the 230 LS patients developed cancer and that only 1 out of 116 patients with congenital IGHD, also suffering from xeroderma pigmentosum, had a malignancy. Out of 79 patients with GHRHR defects and out of 113 patients with congenital MPHD, we found three patients with cancer in each group.
Among the first-degree family members (most heterozygotes) of LS, IGHD and MPHD, we found 30 cases of cancer and 1 suspected. In addition, 31 malignancies were reported among 131 further relatives.
“The new review I linked addresses these concerns.”
Wait, are you the “shekel” fellow?
“DNA does nothing on its own.”
Well of course not, that’s because DNA is apart of the biological system of humans. Everything produces a feedback loop, a factoid that is utilized as “evidence” in IDer Ideology.
I still don’t see how that means DNA is not the sole propagator of physical inheritance. Now if your point is that generational mutation isn’t the only or even the main trans-generational mechanism of heredity, then I’d be more inclined to agree.
“all inheritance is through DNA.”
It is all through DNA, and that is because all physical functioning is switched on or off by genes.
“environment can shape the genome.”
Even without epigenetics the genome has always been affected by the environment, the magnitude of natural selection and to a lesser(or greater) extent sexual selection is all dependent on the environment of an organism
Epigenetics is essentially non-generational mutation.
“Wait, are you the “shekel” fellow?”
No. PP can verify this.
The new review I linked was on endocrine disruptors.
“Well of course not, that’s because DNA is apart of the biological system of humans. Everything produces a feedback loop, a factoid that is utilized as “evidence” in IDer Ideology.”
ugh yea. People have called me an IDer/creatonist for pushing TEH, it just weeds out the morons from those who want serious conversation though.
“I still don’t see how that means DNA is not the sole propagator of physical inheritance.”
Because genes/DNA are used by and for the system to carry out tasks.
“Now if your point is that generational mutation isn’t the only or even the main trans-generational mechanism of heredity, then I’d be more inclined to agree.”
Yes there are numerous other epigen inheritance modes, though a few are more studied than others (DNA methylation/histone modification) But not all epigenetic inheritance is transgen, as PP has pointed out (though intrauterine exposure is a type of epigen change due to prenatal environment and what the mother does, it is not transgenerational.
:”It is all through DNA, and that is because all physical functioning is switched on or off by genes.”
Point about epigenetics is that it can alter the genome’s expression without *changing* the genomic code. Therefore the *environment* and what occurs during an organisms lifetime can affect its progeny.
“Epigenetics is essentially non-generational mutation.”
A lot falls under the umbrella ‘epigenetics’. For one, differntiating cells in the body of a fetus is ‘epigenetic’ So is genomic imprinting and transgen inheritance. Transgen inheritance has been noted in numerous animals.
“Because genes/DNA are used by and for the system to carry out tasks”
Which system? And isn’t this system a result of genetic expression? I don’t see how it couldn’t be.
“Yes there are numerous other epigen inheritance modes”
Sorry, drop the generational in front of mutation. What I mean is that I’m aware classical natural selection on randomly generated mutations is not the only way a particular phenotype becomes the norm in a population.
“Point about epigenetics is that it can alter the genome’s expression without *changing* the genomic code”
But it still involves the genome it just isn’t producing any new mutations, just altering expression.
Without coming across as supporting one or the other, because frankly ‘now’ i dont understand the concept of darwinism or lamarckism, but i understand something about evolution in general. So based on this i think the reason the future generations of mice could have been born with tails in spite of their earlier generations’ tails being cut is because tails must be useful for survival or serve some important function useful for survival. That is why the traits of it could have been passed on to future generations in spite of them being cut. With regard to giraffes’ future gens having longer necks…longer necks generally ensure better survival than shorter necks that why they were more likely passed on too. I think evolution also passes on genes/acquired traits useful for survival too. Not just acquired traits alone. And if has to choose (like in this case genes for full tail or genes for cut tail) i think it would pass the trait that is more useful for survival. In this case the genes of the tail over the modified genes of the cut tail. That is why inspite of their tails being cut, the future gen of mice still had tails. I hope i am being clear/making sense? Also this is the best i can put it.
One argument for the reason why acquires traits would be useful in evolution is that it kind of gives the offspring a ‘blueprint’ if you will about how the environment is and so they have a sort of ‘memory’ that’s passed from previous generations to have it better survive.
Punctuated equilibrium is like that. Morphologic change has been noted in vertebrates with little to no genetic change.
Moreover, heritable morphological changes were seen to be capable of occurring abruptly with little or no genetic change, with involvement of the external environment, and in preferred direction.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262151448_Form_and_function_remixed_Developmental_physiology_in_the_evolution_of_vertebrate_body_plans
”Moreover, heritable morphological changes were seen to be capable of occurring abruptly with little or no genetic change, with involvement of the external environment,
and in preferred direction.”
teleo…
Seems, NO changes happen without pre-conditions…
“teleo…
Seems, NO changes happen without pre-conditions…”
Yea that’s what this does imply…Still thinking about it. Directed mutations are possible (but highly controversial):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4453068/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02690267
Anyway who ever is interested can search and read about the controversy on their own. I don’t have a position here, but the paper I linked on morphologic change lends credence to the idea.
African americans became taller as well white americans but their average cognitive skills stayed the same, basically the ”same”//very very similar differences between them since the first comparative studies in american army, for example, in the beggining of XX century.
Fattier white americans ”still’ tend to be [cognitively] smarter than athletic black americans.
Height is a long-developmental and broader characteristic and may be strongly influenced by environment but even this is at priori obvious influence it don’t appear to be equal for all people because we ”still” have those who don’t became taller, maybe taller only if they are compared to their ancestors.
Even when we have a environmental factor changing certain trait = height, for example, we ”still” have pre-conditional factors mediating this changes, genetics or whatever the name you like to describe.
So, for example, japaneses became taller than their ancestors, but they still are not taller than avg europeans. Spaniards became taller than their ancestors but still are not taller than most northern europeans.
Montenegrinians and ethiopians/sudaneses, two/three people who have lived in, respectively, low living standard to Europe and very poor country/countries, still are one of the tallest people in the world.
Because height tend /seems to be environmentally sensitive, don’t mean all traits will be like that.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Tallest-People-in-the-World-61130.shtml
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/traditional-diets/out-of-africa-what-dr-price-dr-burkitt-discovered-in-their-studies-of-sub-saharan-tribes/
”Directed mutations are possible (but highly controversial)”
Directedness is dependent of the type of possible genetic combination both individuals of couples carry or share one each other.
If mutations were always or considerably random why for example down syndrome is so robust regardless environment or people*
Maybe down syndrome is a type of intermediary state of general mental deficiency, BUT ”total” mentally handicapped people generally no have specific facial traits [they may share specific facial ‘defects’] as down-people have, universally speaking.
All traits are products of both environment and genes but they can be carried from their original environments to others, it’s dependent [or not] their levels of robustness and this may/can be related with generalistic nature. Usually that traits or ”genotypes” [also called pre-phenotypes] tend to be more simpler in their nature than complex [or not, and simplicity mean specially to individual perspective a not so good outcome, but great at collective perspective].
But too-well-adapted traits tend to be more fixed or less mobile because their hyper-specialized or exotic nature.
“Directedness is dependent of the type of possible genetic combination both individuals of couples carry or share one each other.”
Not really. This is a different type of ‘directedness’. That the organisms physiology/cells can ‘know’ (since the cells control the physiology which is also itself an integrated intelligent system) what goes on in the environment and ‘direct’ change is huge for evolutionary theory—and flies in the face of the Modern Synthesis.
“If mutations were always or considerably random why for example down syndrome is so robust regardless environment or people*”
Mutations are not always random. Cancer isn’t.
While ‘genetic mutations’ is the proximate cause of this natural selection, the environment is ultimately what guides the mutation. What is important is not the specific genetic mutation that led to long pointy beaks, but the environmental condition that favored the selection of long pointy beaks. There are many different mutations that may cause the same long pointy beak, but cataloging these various mutations does not lead to understanding of why these beaks developed. It was not a random collection of mutations that happened to create the long pointy beak.
…
If mutations were truly random, then one set of mutations may have unlimited growth (cancer) where the next may glow in the dark. There is nothing random about cancer’s mutations because they all develop the same features.
…
These cancer cells are being selected to survive, when in truth, they should be dead. It cannot be random, because multiple different mutations converge upon the same phenotype. That is — all cancers look alike on the surface, but genetically, they are all different, just as the marsupial flying squirrel is completely genetically different from the mammalian one, but look exactly the same.
View at Medium.com
(Dr. Fung is a nephrologist (kidney doctor) so he’s not just ‘some guy’ writing his opinion.)
“But too-well-adapted traits tend to be more fixed or less mobile because their hyper-specialized or exotic nature.”
I agree. It’s like with the gene-centered view of evolution. Oh, the strong live and weak die. Anything about that organism is ‘in its genes’ and therefore they’re at the mercy of the environment. Not true. Intelligent cells/physiology can ‘direct’ mutations (as can be seen in my previous citation) and have an organism be better suited for its new environment.
Your example is great because it gets into one of the insane views of evolution: that an organisms cells/physiology have no effect on 1) its development invitro (that if something occurs in the environment there will be no change) and 2) how an organism lives and survives in an ever-changing environment (which is how these intelligent systems evolved in the first place.
the MOST remarkable thing about cancer is…
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1096637406001304
will post others i’ve read when i find them.
We found that none of the 230 LS patients developed cancer and that only 1 out of 116 patients with congenital IGHD, also suffering from xeroderma pigmentosum, had a malignancy. Out of 79 patients with GHRHR defects and out of 113 patients with congenital MPHD, we found three patients with cancer in each group.
Among the first-degree family members (most heterozygotes) of LS, IGHD and MPHD, we found 30 cases of cancer and 1 suspected. In addition, 31 malignancies were reported among 131 further relatives.
the best way to mimic the laron’s syndrome is…
1. fasting for days. repeat once a month.
2. low protein diet.
”Not really. This is a different type of ‘directedness’. That the organisms physiology/cells can ‘know’ (since the cells control the physiology which is also itself an integrated intelligent system) what goes on in the environment and ‘direct’ change is huge for evolutionary theory
—and flies in the face of the Modern Synthesis.”
I i don’t understood how your comment refute my own.
This:
“Directedness is dependent of the type of possible genetic combination both individuals of couples carry or share one each other.”
Example:
http://blog.theautismsite.com/cs-pregnancy-conditions-autism/?utm_source=ag&utm_medium=paid-affiliate&utm_content=link_6UewrJ&utm_campaign=
Some [or maybe, ALL] conditions are related with pre-conditional factors, seems a obvious thing to think. People with higher mutational load are more prone to have kids with higher mutational load, specially, or this ”risk’ increase considerably with another additional factors for example mother age.
And also, this people are more prone to have more diverse combinations, bad, neutral and good ones, to produce them.
And we may have a diversity of
individual mutational charge
and in combination with the reproductive partner
and in combination with the age of pregnancy
Some people have very lower mutational load and marry with another similar ones.
Other people have average mutational load and sometimes they have, in their family, cases of higher mutational load-individuals.
Other people have above average mutational load, tend to attrack another people, for example, artist couples.
And we will have those who have very higher mutational load [whatever how] and decreased reproductive value, chances and even motivation to procreate.
We already are environments, mobile environments and based on example of secular gains in height due improved environmental conditions, it’s difficult to deny that environment have a role, for sure.
Environment in combination with integrated biological environment, aka, us, have two types of role:
– to forge us [aka, creating genetic compositions which are transferable]
– to alter the next generation in some aspects [aka, causing phenotypical changes or changes of genes expression, and not genotypical ones, for example, epidemics of myopia among chinese//east asian people]
But we must need understand some things
– if the own nature of some variable/feature is or become more plastic, example, height;
– if there is assymetry of functioning between biological adaptation and environment, for example, myopia [certain type of seight is very specialized to certain levels of environmental visual stimuli, and when environment become too visually stimuled this variable become insufficient] .
What you call ”modern synthesis” in derrogative ways, seems it’s related with genotypical changes and not phenotypical. It’s what epigenetics seems is trying to understand.
Higher mutational load also tend to mean lower biological integrity or higher INSTABILITY.
”Mutations are not always random. Cancer isn’t.”
IF…
Cancer happen when the capacity of organism to clean the dead cells is weakened [or not], seems another mutation and/or not-so-well-functioning of organism. You know that there are specific gene that cause breast cancer, i mean, it tend to happen more frequently within certain families and more among some people’s, left handed women, jewish women…
Cancer is genetically diferente one each other because they affect different systems//different genes, but its etiology seems the same.
”(Dr. Fung is a nephrologist (kidney doctor) so he’s not just ‘some guy’ writing his opinion.)”
Ok.
”I agree. It’s like with the gene-centered view of evolution. Oh, the strong live and weak die.”
It seems a over-exemplification of Darwin//and that another author theory, already proven. But i agree that it’s important have more than one perspective, not just gene-centered.
”Anything about that organism is ‘in its genes’ and therefore they’re at the mercy of the environment. Not true.”
Because environment can alter the genetic expression of living beings when the adaptation is not contextually ideal or just different, i don’t think it’s mean ”genes are not involved”.
”Intelligent cells/physiology can ‘direct’ mutations (as can be seen in my previous citation) and have an organism be better suited for its new environment.”
Any concrete example of this*
Why all ridiculous sockpuppet accusations never get moderated and the only true one is ?
I don’t like accusations against commenters who are no longer here to defend themselves, even if some think they’re still here as sockpuppets.
I’m lamarckian as well actually. I’ve always thought bodybuilders turn on genes or activate protein synthesis routines in their metabolism that the pass on.
That experience with the cut off tails is an example of poor logic, not poor science. Cutting off tails is an environmental effect, not an endogenous behaviorial adaptation. That is the stupidest debunking of something in the history of biology. You would have to be retarded to agree with the logic of that experiment. What is going on with these people?
So if i push a car up a hil, that means cars don’t need petrol.
#Lamarckianism stands.
The way to prove lamarckianism works is by having a man work out and change his haircut and so on. He will become more sexually attractive…why?
Because his genes are now more attractive.
IE HIS GENES HAVE CHANGED.
This is the same for drug addicts or alcoholics in reverse with their children.
I hear a lot about Cochran on this blog and in its comments. Is he pro Rushton or against?
I think Rushton is largely right about everything based on accounts of him I’ve read. But obviously he is not even a geneticist of biologist so he may not have the nitty gritty data to say nuanced reasons why Japanese are creative and so on.
I suppose you could be cynical and say it doesn’t matter if you have data if you are retarded and believe race doesn’t exist like 90% of ‘official’ ‘qualified’ academic geneticists.
Cochran derides genetic similarity theory and Rushton’s explanation for ethnic altruism. My thoughts are here (though I admit 1.5 years later that a lot of what is written is probably wrong):
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/05/16/ethnic-genetic-interests-and-group-selection-does-exist-a-reply-to-jayman-2/
Can you give the TLDR of this article.
TLDR, EGis exist, group selection exists (I’ve not discarded group selection, if anything what I’ve been recently reading strengthens group selection theory). JayMan’s interpretation of the ethnic kinship coefficient is irrelevant. We’re more similar to our family, then ethny, than race compared to other distant populations.
Due to the genetic similarity between co-ethnics, there is a genetic interest between them. Each has a Darwinian interest in the other comparable to roughly 25% of their own survival.
But I disavow the ‘selfish gene’ theory now. These articles put it to rest:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4048083/
Click to access 10.1113%40expphysiol.2012.071134.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060581/
(Also read JayMan’s reply and my response.)
The gene-centered evolution theorists are sweating. It’s only a matter of time before irrefutable evidence comes showing that we need to either replace or extend the Modern Synthesis.
Agree with that.
Oh yeah, Rushton should win the nobel in a non jew controlled world. His theory of R/K explains more about our existence than anything I’ve seen in any other field or any scientific result I would go so far as to say, with the possible exception Marx’s critique of the means of production…possibly.
I think you can have both, in that selfish genes plot a course and are a kidn of tendency you give to offspring, but your actual lived life will change a fair amount of what you pass on.
It shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that if you drank and smoked and had sex with gays all your life you would pass on more garbage genetic data than if you were a navy seal and trained 24/7 (without combat).
I kid Santo. I kid.
Or you can born programmed to become schizophrenologic, i mean, already born with a trashy genes…. 😉 and have a son who claim to be a philosopher as well Napoleon, isn’t pill*
A phillolsopher who don’t believe in such magic words but all the time fall in love with them, 😉
excessive smoking and drinking damages dna at a cellular level, genes mutate as we live, and grow older but it doesnt seem to matter much? i know every egg a female produces is slight more mutated than the last, same as every batch of sperm for a male. What would humanity look like if boys where getting girls pregnant at 1st sperm batch while girls were at 1st egg? only then would our genetic code be able to pass on perfectly
It still was proven it was?
Maybe people who smoke excessively already show high levels of addictive behavior and or high mutational load.
(expecting so called “animal studies” as evidence, aka, infamous “$$tudies”).
Phenotype = Evironment + Genotype
R/K selection could just be sorting organisms with P = E + G
The epigenetic thing is just nobs reacting to environmental triggers.
like how violence can be triggered by abusive parent tuning on a gene that would remain off with no violence. Over time passing on violence would depend on if the gene mutated to turn off or remain on from the continued violence.
Both mutations is genes and epigenetic triggers are really all you can go by when seeing what the environment does to an organism. The saying goes “it runs in the family”. A mutation would need to change the next parenting or the environment would need to trigger the current parent to stop their behaviors.
My mom left my dad who was a drug addict. If I had stayed with my dad my epigenetics would be totally different. My way of raising children would be different also (if I had any). Maybe I would be abusive because my dad was that way and my children would be messed up as well. Since it was my mom that raised my thing are different. Gene expressions are different. Nutrition and schooling are different.
Because of assortative mating, the mate I have raised by my mother would be different from the mate I might have from being raised by my father. This would change drastically the gene combinations. Gene expression by an abusive father would mean mate selection would radical select a different assortment of genes, just because I would have been abused and had a different gene expression.
Bodybuilding as a skinny guy means different mate selection meaning a different assortment of genes are found in the mate. Remaining skinny means mate selection would again select a different assortment of genes. Even if a skinny guy starts out skinny they will teach their sons to be buff and muscular and the moms with be moms that like buff guys, not moms that like skinny guys.
”Phenotype = Evironment + Genotype”
I don’t think it’s always like that for example color eyes. Environment influence color eyes expression**
Now Hbabies are arguing that higher cognitive skills CAUSE longevity… seems what they are doing right now…
meanwhile im using ice cubes to filter my tap water so that its bearable to drink. *sips
That discussion we were having the other day about bell curves is very interesting. Because I don’t see where it naturally applies to most things. For example, factory suicides in Apple’s plant in China must be ‘black swany’.
I never read any of Talebs books. I suppose I should. You can do a JB test on the data to tell I suppose.
Theres datasets of SAT and PISA scores, do the fall under a normal dist?
[redacted by pp, nov 17, 2017]
pill claims to have a graduate degree in econ yet he’s never heard of the central limit theorem?
i don’t believe it.
all random variables which are a sum of N random variables will be approximately normal provided that:
1. N is large enough.
2. the N variables have approximately the same distribution.
His degree (if true) would not be from a North American university, Mug of Pee.
Racism = instinct against bad people.
People who are race-ist….are:
(a) people with low tolerances for bad people
(b) people with high virtues
(c) high social intelligence
(d) don’t want Oprah
The answer is all of the above.
If you think about it and I know none of you have bothered. But if you remember everyone in your life that you met who was a certed racist, can you remember whether they were personally moral or not. I don’t mean attendance at church or marching in gay pride parades, I mean loyal to romantic partners, stick up against bullies, donate time to helping needy etc. I bet you would be shocked to realise the jews wrongly convinced you the anti psyhopathic instinct humans are evil.
All conmen think policemen are evil. Its basic common social sense to suggest people who think racism is evil don’t explain why people have these feelings for the same reason Harvey Weinstein won’t.
but the same goes for class in a homogeneous society like blighty used to be.
i’ve been detained for the last 48 hours. so no comments.
second from left is a conehead.
So if somebody is racist towards whites, does it mean they are all this too?:
(a) people with low tolerances for bad people
(b) people with high virtues
(c) high social intelligence
(d) don’t want Oprah
Because pill dislike words and its meanings he is always re-interpreting them with expected bad results.
Supposedly, racism would be irrational discrimination against other people who are of different racial//ethnic groups.
It’s exist but (((media))) want to create the idea that racism == colorism = people discriminate other ”just because skin color” and domesticated minions who are clueless about this issues just repeat endless their inaccuracies.
In the truth, people, most the time, discriminate those who have or engage in perceived bad behaviors which can increase risk of death or illnesses [pre risk of death] for themselves and/or for other people: criminality; promiscuity; even non-conformity.
People often blame exterior features like skin color, and even colorism there is, and can happen against blacks, most part of time, people blame behavior and not just ”’skin color”.
Would you say people who are racist against whites are all those too?
Why do people have irrational feelings.
That statement doesn’t make sense. It is itself, irrational. This logic is the core underpinning of the past 50 years of anti racism.
Why do men like women?
Why do children like animals?
Why do birds suddenly appear?
Questions nobody asks.
I like animals.
I’m aspie right?
what of Mugabe’s obsession with beautiful dogs?
Temperament can be selected for in cats and dogs because it is not an either or issue, it is about personality and sociability, cat people and dog people is a condition of personality selection in those animals that are variable and can blur cat temperament with dog temperament. Breeding can do this.
cats don’t count.
the best use for any cat is to be killed by a dog.
Sometimes cats and dogs play together as friends.
That is how I know breeding and selection can work.
my parents had a cat who thought a dog was his mommy.
i was very young. maybe 4 years old.
the cat sucked on the dog’s chest hairs like they were nipples.
the cat died from mouth cancer.
this may have been caused by the dog’s flea medicine.
and ”he” is a VOLUNTARY for ”IQISTICS”,
no doubt this guy is a intellectual nightmare.
he and its pet Iluminattikitty…
I’d like everyone here to write down why they think racism exists in human beings. I want them to explain why arabic people hate blacks. East asians hate blacks. Etc in particular. If someone says ‘legacy of colonialism’ I WILL FUCKING SCREAM.
GOOG ceo indian
MSFT ceo indian
C ceo was indian until recently
just proves my point
racism is sub-conscious.
south asians are “honorary whites”. east of s asia is just grunts.

https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2017/01/26/104243181-GettyImages-532150054.530×298.jpg?v=1491910251
https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/rts17s8f-2.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=4501
the epitome of the s asian advantage in the US and europe and other white dominions…it’s ubiquitous…is…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Chandrasekhar
i think i may have seen a sasquatch today.
i was at Home Depot and overheard this: “what nation?…your shirt.”
so it might be the customer was a mexican.
sasquatches and mexicans are closely related.
he had a fashy + man bun hairstyle.
and an abo looking girl next to him.
the rebus was the first writing system. hieroglyphics are rebuses.
but this system of writing can be both accessible and arcane.
or perhaps
+
+
+
hey pumpkin, did you see this study showing that league of legends ranking has .44 correlation with wasi ii raw score? isn’t that larger than many subtests? http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0186621&type=printable
It’s about as large as the worst subtests (i.e. Mazes which Mug of Pee did well on as a child), but yes, video games can be good measures of intelligence if you control for practice and learning effects (chronometrics correlates 0.7+ with IQ). East Asians are very good at video games.
Video games seems good for
general cognitive skills
non-verbal cognitive skills
I think verbally smarter people tend not to be obsessed with video games as nerdy-stems.
and i told pill i didn’t know because i was never on that side or at that level in the two companies i worked for very briefly.
but i can say the obvious. insurance company claims ARE approximately normal. this was a test in the old SoA curriculum. iirc it was called “risk theory”.
it’s just a consequence of the central limit theorem.
for life companies this is an almost perfect model.
for p&c the model is not as perfect. i expect it is close to perfect for auto insurance. but for home insurance which covers floods/hurricanes/earthquakes it’s going to be very variable. maybe liability insurance can also ruin insurance companies. asbestos might be an example. idk.
insurance and banking are basically the same business, just different terms. but the practice of insurance in the US is a fucking scandal. it’s not that the business is scandalous. it’s that its instantiation in the US, at least, is scandalous. there is no federal regulation of insurance companies in the US. it’s a yuge fraud.
by “banking” i mean commercial banking.
the “corporate finance” part of investment banking is a natural extension of commercial banking to very large businesses.
but nowadays it’s like 25% of an i-bank’s business at most.
75% is trading, advisory, asset management.
yet another reason why shares in i-banks is a bad investment.
just like shares in KKR, carlyle, blackstone,etc. is a bad investment.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-damore-google-memo-interview-autism-regrets
So Damore is aspy. Makes sense.
“provided that N is large enough”
So over 2000 years, we can finally say factory suicides are normally distributed. This falls into the “over 1 million years, race does not exist” and “Over 50 years, economic depressions go back to 5 year upturn”.
Its really not even worth considering.
As I said, it would be interesting if you could look at insurance company actuarial tables for general cover. I’m aware life tables are normally distributed.
https://blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/2014/11/03/only-buy-insurance-when-you-cant-afford-the-loss/
Really good advice, if you want to comb through an insurance cos annual report.
I have always made money from insurance contracts in my life. I know my own risk and price it accordingly.
Yes, I think the incidence of Indian ceos and partners at consulting firms and engineering firms is way beyond even the argument you see Jimmy make that they only take the good indians into the UK/US. Its obvious indians have a much higher ceiling than what theyre achieving in India. Again and again, I point to the fact that most immigrants into the UK especially were basically peasents and illiterate in the 60s. You can’t say they were the Barack Obama Snrs of this world. All of the south asians (ex pakistanis) I’ve worked with were smart…..and were more socially adept than east asians.
The only part of the world that would equal western ‘IQ’ performance with better nutrition and sanitation etc is India. I just don’t see it with Latin Am, Africa, Central Asia, MENA or elsewhere. There is a long track record of mathematics and philosophy in India. Like the jews, they are responsible for at least 2 major world religions. Its well beyond chance. Completely disagree with Jimmy but must respect the fact he was in India and haven’t.
1.3 billion indians ought to spit out some smart people. The real intelligent people are the east asians. Among indians only the top say 1-5 percent people are intelligent but among east asians a far higher percentage of people are intelligent.
And this coming from an indian, so trust me.
OfC Israel excepted. Hahahaha.
OfC Khazaria excepted. HAHAHAHAHA.
Indian immigrants in the U.S. were definitely highly selected. In the UK not as much, in fact Lynn claimed that Indians in the UK scored the same as Indians in India when they first arrived in the UK (around IQ 82) but by the second generation they were in the mid to high 90s. The dumbest Indians I’ve ever met were from Trinidad and Tobago (very low class and into gangsta rap, unlike the nerdy studious Indians I usually encounter), and Lynn cited a study where T&T Indians scored as low as T&T blacks. This shocked Lynn because usually Indians (and everyone else) score much higher than blacks when reared in the same environment, but just as the smartest Indians come to North America, Lynn argued the dumbest were recruited to T&T (indentured servants) and the blacks in T&T were enhanced by white admixture. On the other hand, HBD deniers would say this is evidence that IQ is not genetic, and gangsta rap is dragging down the IQ of urban culture through epigenetics 🙂
“We must, however, go back to an older time, if we want to appreciate what uncontrolled Turkish rule meant, alike to Armenians and to Greeks. It did not mean religious persecution; it meant unutterable contempt … They were dogs and pigs; and their nature was to be Christians, to be spat upon, if their shadow darkened a Turk, to be outraged, to be the mats on which he wiped the mud from his feet. Conceive the inevitable result of centuries of slavery, of subjection to insult and scorn, centuries in which nothing that belonged to the Armenian, neither his property, his house, his life, his person, nor his family, was sacred or safe from violence – capricious, unprovoked violence – to resist which by violence meant death!”
Minorities in Europe get on far better than under MENA rulers. Ergo, europeans are the most evil and race-ist.
Signed
Joshua Rumpelstilstein.
I dont think europeans are the most evil. The issue is you banging on about almost all other ethnicities. When you keep on finding faults with others ‘eventually’ they will start doing the same to you.
Dont you think?
i read somewhere that the swiss are the world’s most introverted people. even more than the japs. yet switzerland is a very successful country. introversion is punished in america and in the anglo-sphere more generally. germans and scandinavians are also introverted but at the same time behave in ways that americans would characterize as rude. germans are loud. scandinavians will say, “i don’t like you.” the french argue with their friends as if they were enemies.
here’s a question: does volume of voice vary from country to country? who are the softest speakers? who are the loudest? this is totally objective. no need for psychobabble.
this thought occurred to me today when i overheard a white guy talking way too loudly.
i thought, “is he hard of hearing? is he crazy? or is he just from somewhere else?”
he didn’t have an accent.
there’s a yuge difference between japs and chinks.
japs are quiet. chinks are loud.
the world cup odds are now 33% that germany or brazil will win.
both are 5:1.
italy and holland have been eliminated.
i’ll root for uruguay first and germany second.
maybe spain again. maybe argentina.
this guy is a homo. notice the ‘tache.
in reality the evidence NEVER showed that even promiscuous white heterosexuals were at risk.
homos were at increased risk because of the butt stuff. not because of promiscuity. the tops survived AIDS.
in the US AIDS is now a disease of black women and black men who claim to be straight.
white heteros who only do it with white heteros are immune. they always have been.
1. black men are on the down-low.
2. the bbc rips butts and ginas. blood.
notice that straight white men aren’t even on the chart.

and neither are dykes.
dykes are more promiscuous than straight women but like straight white men they are basically immune to AIDS.
i expect they have a high rate of herpes though. and herpes related oral cancer.
good to see THREE former pumpkins on unz.
steve even showed he’d read me today. “sapir-whorf”. not a coincidence. has he mentioned it before?
the secret to peepee’s success is no moderation.
but she thinks it’s her genius.
not moderating is my genius