Commenter Race Realist claimed in the comment section that IQ and many other physiological traits do not form bell curves.
A bell curve is just a distribution of scores where most people score around average, and as scores move further from the average in either direction, the number of people very gradually decreases (forming the shape of a bell).
As Arthur Jensen noted in his book, Bias in Mental Testing, many physical traits roughly form a bell curve, for example, height:
Birth weight:
Brain weight:
The reason for this, as Jensen brilliantly understood even back in the early 1970s, is these are complex polygenetic traits caused by a great many uncorrelated genetic and micro-environmental effects, and thus their distribution should resemble the flipping of thousands of coins, giving you either bad or good genetic (and environmental) luck:
While it’s true that modern IQ test results are forced to fit a bell curve, this is not necessarily because cognition doesn’t naturally form a bell curve, but rather it’s because in order for test results to naturally form a bell curve, you need what’s called an interval scale: A scale where items increase in difficulty at equal intervals.
But because it can be tricky and tedious to judge whether a certain IQ test item is 10% more difficult than another one, or 30% more difficult, IQ tests often contain abrupt jumps in difficulty, making them ordinal scales, not interval scales, which prevent the distribution of scores from being smooth and continuous. As a result scores wont always naturally fit a bell curve, they must be forced to.
However as Arthur Jensen noted in Bias in Mental Testing, some psychometric tests are based on interval scales. For example the original Binet scale used the concept of age. Since the difference between a six-year-old and a five-year-old is theoretically the same as the difference between a ten-year-old and a nine-year-old (one year), this is an interval scale, and so IQs calculated from the ratio of a child’s mental age to his chronological age closely approximated a bell curve for the middle 99% of the population:
As Jensen explained, the departure from normality at the lower extreme is caused by major disorders that override normal polygenetic variation such as mutations of large effect, chromosomal abnormalities, birth trauma and the like. The surplus of scores at the high extreme is less pronounced and harder to explain.
One of the best measures of IQ is Vocabulary. Most vocabulary tests are not true interval scales because psychologists arbitrarily pick words for people to define, and these may increase in difficulty in a non-linear way, however as Jensen noted, some Vocabulary tests are based on selecting words from the dictionary at random, and when this is done, the total number of random words kids can correctly define, approximates a bell curve:
Another example of an interval scale is Digit Span, because Digit spans gradually increase in difficulty one digit at a time, with multiple trials at each difficulty level. When this was scored such that each digit correctly recalled in the right order scored a point, the scores of 5,539 Navy recruits approximated a bell curve:
Of course I’m not suggesting that all cognitive abilities form a bell curve. Indeed a member of Prometheus once claimed that because the human mind works in parallel, complex problem solving speed actually doubles every 5 IQ points, which is about as far from a normal distribution as you can get.
An interesting question is why do some forms of cognition (including some very g loaded abilities like Vocabulary) form a bell curve, while spatial and math talent may form an exponential curve, and does this imply math and spatial geniuses are vastly more intelligent than verbal geniuses, since the latter are at most only about 100% verbally smarter than average, while the former are many orders of magnitude spatially or mathematically smarter?
Where or how did the promethean get those figures?
Probably just from casual observation. If you ever watch people trying to solve complex problems you’ll notice some people can solve them immediately while other people take hours or even days.
So it’s just speculation. I mean maybe since he is assuming the brain has multiple processors (possibly neurons) then that means the magnitude is doubled but action potentials always have the same magnitude of energy the only variable is frequency of the firing. Secondly this is counterintuitive to what most would conclude seeing as how more intelligent people usually have less activation In the brain.
Everyday life is more complex than the hardest IQ/Ravens item.
That is a meaningless statement.
Go on.
Well technically it is you who needs to continue elaborating otherwise the statement is as I said, meaningless. Like define the complexity of everyday life, who’s life? Furthermore, how would you objectively tell which measure of ability is more difficult? Life seems easy to me.
Answering a question on a test, compared to living daily life and living in a modern environment. Which is more complex? The most complex Raven’s item or every day life?
I think it’s simple. Complex: ‘Damn, what should I do!? How should I do this!?’ compared to ‘Oh, the last question on a matrices test. Eh whatever.’
Life in general. Answering an item on a test is in no way, shape or form more complex than living your life. You’re fooling yourself if you believe so.
Fallacious, how can you compare a test with static criteria to a continuously variable one? The “hardest” thinking I do all day is my science research. So deciding where to eat, and when to take a shit is hard?
It’s not fallacious. Life is “easy” if you just live it and set no goals. You know that life isn’t “easy” in an evolutionary sense, namely survival.
Anyway let me amend my statement. Raven’s items require less complex cognition than doing tasks in everyday life in the life of a child or adult. And don’t gimme ‘how do you know about every life” averages, etc.
Again, Raven’s items are less complex than complex cognition in everyday life.
It’s easy to survive at least for the average human in a developed world. Raven items simply gauge some of that ability.
Are you feeling okay? You’ve been really nonsensical lately.
The hardest Raven’s items aren’t more complex than doing simple tasks, you use more complex cognition doing simple tasks than you do thinking about a Raven’s item.
I’m fine, how have you been? Surviving, re doing simple tasks with complex thought in everyday normal life, is more complex than the hardest Raven’s item. There are other reasons why some won’t be able to figure the problem out other than ‘processing speed’ or whatever else.
Citation for the last two sentences, or what are you inferring this from?
I’ll provide citations this afternoon. My one citation isn’t specifically on Raven’s items, but it shows the complexity of everyday life.
it’s complex in a sense because you must deduce the intent of the test writer.
you must work out what the ‘question’ is in order to answer it.
you already know the question in life.
im hungry. how do i get some nice couscous?
ravens is more complicated than life.
So many here fall to the alter of IQ.
“you must work out what the ‘question’ is in order to answer it.”
On a test that’s forced to fit a normal distribution.
“ravens is more complicated than life.”
So many here fall to the alter of IQ. That an item on a test could be more complex than problems faced in every day life.
I actually had my book on me. Here is the citation.
http://repository.cmu.edu/psychology/728/
There is a pdf available. Search the name of the paper.
Source for quotes:
that book is worthless trash.
driving on a busy road isn’t conscious intelligence. there is no abstract reasoning going on here. there is no reasoning going on here at all.
intelligence is reasoning.
a computer’s capacity to path-find and avoid obstacles when given a clear problem is absolutely not intelligence. it is executing a formula/tactic
a human’s ability to reason and deduce the CORRECT QUESTIONS TO ASK is intelligence.
people that can’t ask the correct questions are stupid.
people that can ask the correct questions are clever.
ravens has nothing to do with working memory. you barely need to remember 3 rules at a time. that’s ridiculously easy.
the problem people have with ravens is they don’t know what they’re supposed to do – and they lack the intellectual capacity to work it out for themselves. they get the legendary ‘brain blank’ when looking at the puzzle.
executing a TACTIC is not intelligence. cooking is executing a TACTIC. you are performing previously known instructions.
CREATING tactics is intelligence.
people that suck at ravens SUCK AT CREATING TACTICS
sure they ‘appear’ clever, but that is only because they are knowledgeable, they have a number of ‘pre-learned’ tactics they learned from outside sources (other humans)
but when it comes down to it, their true intelligence is revealed
incapable of creating new tactics with novel information.
theoretical science will often stand still for centuries till a ‘great man’ makes a great leap.
this is because most ‘scientists’ are just not intelligent. they are only capable of learning the ‘tactics/knowledge’ greater men have shown them up till that point. they are not capable of creating new knowledge/tactics.
“that book is worthless trash”
Tell me more about a book you’ve never read. I’d love to hear it.
i think peepee has a crush on langan.
sad!
she might have to give up lesbianism.
“That an item on a test could be more complex than problems faced in every day life.”
LMAO, the point flew over your head. Items show relative performance on a task, not all items on the test are equal and multi-tasking in everyday life is a product of practice, while most pattern recognition tests are testing novel axioms.
“while most pattern recognition tests are testing novel axioms.”
Right, the items are unfamiliar, but the cognitive processes to do it are less complex than everyday life. Yea yea, relative to other items on the test, but the hardest Raven item is less complex than living your life and uses less complex thinking.
Does IQ measure ability for complex cognition?
Click to access 10.1177%400959354314551163.pdf
Have I linked you the cite on urban vs hunter-gatherers in Ravens? That lends credence to my argument.
http://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=anth_etds
Read pg 83.
You said, “… spatial and math talent may form an exponential curve….” That’s clearly not the case, and you should know that from a basic understanding of what the normal distribution represents. Why does the normal have its maximum in the middle? Because the greatest percentage of the population is clustered about the mean. More people have an IQ closer to the mean of 100 than to any other score.
Now, an exponential curve goes to infinity as x goes to infinity. So the greatest number of IQs would be at the upper end; ie, we’d have more geniuses than people of any other intelligence level–which is clearly not the case.
Unless you meant a curve representing a function of negative x or a function of some positive real number less than 1. In any case, those are special cases, and that’s not what you said.
I’d say the normal distribution does a reasonable job of representing IQ distribution, which isn’t strictly normal anyway. The normal distribution is simply the best model for large numbers of cases that seem to fit it. But a finite number of cases can never be strictly normal really; to the extent that a large set of cases doesn’t deviate too much from the normal, we say that set is normal, which simplifies other things greatly. And we feel justified by the Central Limit Theorem in saying that.
Math and spatial IQ have a normal curve because the scores have been NORMALIZED not because they’re intrinsically normal. By contrast vocabulary and memory span naturally form a normal curve when tested on an interval scale.
Correction to what I wrote: I meant to say, “Unless you meant a curve representing a function of negative x or a function of x with its base being some positive real number less than 1.” Definite difference.
It doesn’t matter whether they’re actually normal or just normalized (and I didn’t address that question). Do you not see that they can’t be represented by an exponential curve? Or do you mean an exponential distribution (which is different)?
In any case, an exponential distribution wouldn’t be right either. If the scores are not normally distributed, which is most likely, the shape would still be closer to a normal distribution than to any other continuous distribution.
For what it’s worth, the IQ scores of any given subgroup of a large population are probably not truly normally distributed either. See my first comment.
I just used the term exponential loosely to mean explosive gaps in ability that increased the higher you go in percentile rank.
I don’t know what you would call such a curve but I know it’s not normal.
If you have seen my drawing of a woman’s face you would know I am no genius in spacial skills. I see anime drawing on the internet all the time and I am not surprised the curve is exponential.
I think that the brain operating in parallel is one of the best ideas pumpkin has had. I am reading a book called Our Final Invention a book about A.I. by James Barrat. He says an A.I. could become 1,000 times smarter than the humans making it. If intelligence doubles every 5 IQ points then a person with the IQ of 170 would be what the A.I. is to the A.I. scientists. (power of 2 log)
I believe that if I had not begun fainting on the last problem of my IQ test I would have gotten 135 or 140 on figure-weights but then things started to get blurry. I have said I low energy and severe anxiety I was suppressing for a long time. Being diagnosed as mentally ill usually lowers your chances of having moderate to high IQ.
I bet pumpkin could figure out what my nonverbal learning disability means since he is good at research. He has my scores I have posted them numerous times on his block. Perhaps I may ask you pumpkin, is my poor drawing abilities and the rest of the subtests I did poorly on a sign of a malfunction of brain areas that do not affect (g). How can (g) and verbal and performance, not all follow the same brain regions? You have said different subtests measure different brain regions. How is it possible in the brain to be half dumb and half genius. Are the brain regions not working together? How is that related to parallelism. I do believe I could be capable of 140 on figure weights if I had some kind of medical treatments for low energy. (If my brain is imbalanced in cognitive skills my ability to post on this blog would not prove I do not have low energy, simply my verbal is high and wastes the least energy for me)
I think that the brain operating in parallel is one of the best ideas pumpkin has had
Thanks, but it wasn’t my idea. A member of Prometheus created that theory.
Hardly. It’s been around in cognitive science for quite a while.
flushton and jensen weren’t intellectuals peepee. they were pseudo-intellectuals. big difference.
Heidegger was a TRUE intellectual, 😉
”is these are complex polygenetic traits caused by a great many uncorrelated genetic and micro-environmental effects, and thus their distribution should resemble the flipping of thousands of coins, giving you either bad or good genetic (and environmental) luck”
or just because majority of people ARE average in most or in many outcomes because they just born like that and bell curves show this.
”Uncorrelated genetic and micro-environmental effects”, seems still a partial and vague conjecture, it wasn’t proven, i know that in some cases maybe some ”environmental” insult [in combination with specific biological vulnerabilities] can result in some harsh disorders but…
”and does this imply math and spatial geniuses are vastly more intelligent than verbal geniuses, since the latter are at most only about 100% verbally smarter than average, while the former are many orders of magnitude spatially or mathematically smarter?”
rarer not necessarily mean ”vastly intelligent” and smart on what exactly*
If it was on spatial and mathematical, very likely…
but there are other types of INTELLIGENCE that ROBOT-(((hbbs))) don’t care for…
BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!1
Be interested to know how many ‘falsely indicted’ death row people actually have other criminal records indicative that they would kill someone.
Most people don’t know that past criminal records are not permissible in murder cases in most countries. You can prove as a matter of epistemology whether the person did it by looking at their criminal history, rather than judging the facts of 1 case.
The idea that past behaviour is not permissible is a strange legal philosophy and it would be good if someone could explain why courts do it. If I had to bet, most feath row cases are in fact, valid.
I am actually a proponent of the death penalty as it is needed to remove psychopathy from the the gene pool. You can argue the lack of a death penalty allows certain minorities to thrive and that a certain historical figure concluded that a certain programme was needed to remove psychopathy from the gene pool. I 100% disagree with my friend who said that the ‘death penalty writ large’ is good idea. It should be done on individual miscreants, not their families like in medieval China (and another reason why chinos are so aspergery btw).
I’m generally in favor of the death penalty, too. Usually…
I’m generally in favor of the death penalty, too. Usually…
China is amazing.
It’s really amazing. The rulers literally treated their civilization like a human farm, filled with domesticated animals.
They would ‘cull’ undesirable genes.
Creepy.
No such thing exists in MENA. We’ve been tribal for all of history and even to this day. All MENA civilizations have been gatherings of very different tribes/families, not huge, homogeneous societies of domesticated humans.
I believe Germanics were the same way, very tribal.
As for today, they seem to be heading in the direction of autism – but are still capable of pumping out a Hitler or two.
Remember that there are many chineses who are not like that, indeed, current chinees government is a type of hidden nazi-fascist government BUT because ”they” are not white/guilty…
Buzsaki and Mizuseki (2014) review data that sensory acuity time, reaction time (one of the best correlates of so-called g), memory word usage, and sentence lengths don’t fall on a normal distribution. On top of this, visual acuity, resting hear rate, and metabolic rate aren’t normally distributed, which makes sense because those traits need to be malleable got survival.
Click to access 10.1038%40nrn3687.pdf
Even traits important for work don’t fall on a normal curve.
We conducted 5 studies involving 198 samples including 633,263 researchers, entertainers, politicians, and amateur and professional athletes. Results are remarkably consistent across industries, types of jobs, types of performance measures, and time frames and indicate that individual performance is not normally distributed—instead, it follows a Paretian (power law) distribution.
Click to access 10.1111%40j.1744-6570.2011.01239.x.pdf
The point about the construction of IQ tests and the assumptions of the normal curve is what I’m most worried about. If the normal curve is wrong for IQ scores than the assumptions and conclusions made from the data are horribly flawed and horribly wrong. Read my Twitter rant on this.
Brain weight isn’t a physiological variable. It’s a physical variable. Just because the brain carries out physiological processes doesn’t mean that its a physiological variable.
Ironically, this traits that stem most important to survival are the very ones that do not have a normal distribution. Natural selection itself produces more and more phenotypes with values that would have previously been above average. That is, of course, the aim of artificial selection in animals. (Richardson, 2017: 46)
Id IQ scores aren’t normally distributed, then the assumptions and conclusions that follow from the scores are wrong.
“Ironically, this traits that stem most important to survival are the very ones that do not have a normal distribution. Natural selection itself produces more and more phenotypes with values that would have previously been above average. That is, of course, the aim of artificial selection in animals.” (Richardson, 2017: 46)
Damn typos.
“Ironically, those traits that are most important to survival are the very ones that do not have a normal distribution. Natural selection itself produces more and more phenotypes with values that would have previously been above average. That is, of course, the aim of artificial selection in animals.” (Richardson, 2017: 46)
Also everyone please watch this video and tell me what you think. Too long didn’t watch, this guy pretty much says OK you have SNPs correlated with individual IQ differences, supposedly. Now show how these SNPs cause the variation in the trait in question. It’s a great video if only for the great explanation of biology, physiology and cell biology.
For the sake of the argument, I’ll concede that these genes are *associated* with IQ. Now what needs to be explained is how these SNPs causes differences in the trait. Which has yet to be done. You see people champion these association studies, yet they don’t understand how the SNPs cause the variation in the trait.
That’s a really good video. Watch it with an open mind.
that’s right. all of HBD is just correlations. no HBDer understands this.
the genes which have been shown to cause differences in test scores all cause lower test scores. and as peepee has posted on, variants of these genes other than the pathological variant have no discernible effect. not merely a small effect, but no effect.
when the association is as strong as that between smoking and lung cancer then it’s almost certainly cause and effect. but if the association is as weak as heavy drinking and lower rates of skin cancer, these can be explained by drinkers staying indoors, being night people. synecdochally speaking. the same for the weak association between drinking and colon cancer or drinking and lower rates of lymphoma.
that guy “kraut and tea” got a lot of responses to his vid. i should make a vid. a vid without a prole retard “geneticist”. like nazi rubber duck.
And they didn’t address his physiology arguments at all. It’s hilarious.
“that’s right. all of HBD is just correlations. no HBDer understands this.”
I agree. They think correlations are enough when they’ve not shown causality.
“that guy “kraut and tea” got a lot of responses to his vid. i should make a vid. a vid without a prole retard “geneticist”. like nazi rubber duck.”
No one addressed the physiology arguments. OK you have SNPs correlated with individual intelligence differences. Sorry, associated. Now provide physiological justification for how and why they cause trait differences. No one addressed that and I can only assume it’s because they’re ignorant to physiology. Two response were published, I watched one and it was garbage I didn’t watch the other yet.
Either way they have no theory of individual intelligence differences nor a theory of g. I’ll accept P-FIT for the sake of the argument, and I’ll accept g for the sake of the argument (I don’t believe there is a basis for both but I’ll get into that in an upcoming post). Fifty percent of the P-FIT studies didn’t replicate iirc. Flip a coin, there’s your answer.
So if those SNPs that were associated with IQ, how are they associated with P-FIT? How do those SNPs cause individual trait variation? Those are the types of questions that need to be asked.
People say oh you don’t need to find the genes, we know the difference is down to genes so we don’t need genes. I think the point is lost on most people who watched thst video. They’re only saying ‘oh you’re only saying find the genes, well we don’t need to find them and we don’t need to explain how they cause differences in individual trait variation!’
Maybe one day HBD will jump from correlations to actual causes. I won’t hold my breath though.
No one addressed the physiology arguments. OK you have SNPs correlated with individual intelligence differences. Sorry, associated. Now provide physiological justification for how and why they cause trait differences
This was the same argument creationists used to discredit Darwin. He couldn’t explain the biological process by which inherited traits are modified because he didn’t know anything about genetics and DNA.
Now we know about DNA but we’re a long way from knowing how all our SNPs function & interact, especially for an organ as complex the brain.
Criticizing HBDers for not knowing how DNA causes IQ is like criticizing biologists for not knowing how life was started or mocking Einstein for not knowing how to time travel.
“the same argument creationists used to discredit Darwin.”
Darwin had a theory of inheritance, and it was one of the more Lamarckian theories (Lamarck did nothing wrong, he’s misunderstood) at the time.
In 1868 Charles Darwin proposed Pangenesis, a developmental theory of heredity. He suggested that all cells in an organism are capable of shedding minute particles he called gemmules, which are able to circulate throughout the body and finally congregate in the gonads. These particles are then transmitted to the next generation and are responsible for the transmission of characteristics from parent to offspring. If any cells of the parent undergo changes as a result of environmental change, they will consequently transmit modified gemmules to their offspring.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18429766/
See how Lamarckian it is?
Criticizing HBDers is correct. There are great theories on how life started and, get this, the vehicle (machines or what not) existed before the replicators (genes). Biologists are beginning to understand how life began. I have good cites will link later.
The fact of the matter is that HBDers champion these association studies as if they mean anything. They don’t without showing causation.
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1878/3001
They have to start somewhere. If Hsu is right about IQ being caused by 10,000 genetic variants, then each one will have such a tiny effect that even finding statistically significant correlations is a big achievement. Once the correlations are all found, they’ll worry about how causal they are.
Hsu isn’t right. First 10,000 people needed. Then 100,000, now a million. Soon it’ll be 1,000,000, then 10,000,000, then 100,000,000, and finally 1,000,000,000,000. Genes aren’t additive either.
Correlations are meaningless. Read that Denis Noble article. Genes aren’t causes on their own, which we’ve been through before. The ‘tens of thousands of genes of small effect’ argument is bunk. It’s just reaching. Genes don’t work in the way you think they do. Genes are not causes on their own, they’re passive templates. That’s the most causality that can be attributed to genes.
I said genetic variants, not genes, strictly defined.
For example some of the most important DNA causing humans to be smarter than chimps are not genes. From the LA Times:
A new study suggests that just 10 differences on one particular strand of human DNA lying near a brain-development gene could have been instrumental in the explosive growth in the human neocortex.
The DNA region, containing just 1,200 base pairs, is not a gene. But it lies near one that is known to affect early development of the human neocortex, according to the study, published online Thursday in Current Biology.
If it took a decade to find out why humans are genetically smarter than chimps, then the much smaller differences between humans could take far longer, especially given the political opposition
Before I begin, SNPs cause differences in genetic variation—the nucleotides—between individuals and therefore cause differences in the recipe for proteins that are in our genes. So, of course, it’s controlled by the intelligent system just like intelligent cells, DNA on its own is not a cause and does nothing on its own unless it’s activated by the intelligent system which is driven by intelligent cells/bacteria (think the microbiome).
I just read the paper:
Click to access 10.1016%40j.cub.2015.01.041.pdf
And it talks about how we evolved new ways of expressing similar genes (and what two things have we recently made huge strides on? DNA methylation and histone modification and how they lead to altered gene expression without a change in the genome. The microbiome is also ‘the second genome’ with a whole other genetic code). The HARE5 gene displayed epigenetic signatures of enhancer activity in numerous neurodevelopmental cell types. They found 106 non-overlapping HARs which contained transcriptional enhancer epigenetic marks! Thanks for showing me something new that lends credence to the role of epigenetics in human evolution.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3511995/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3511995/
So this is evidence for epigenetic changes causing brain size differences between humans and chimps, good to know.
“If it took a decade to find out why humans are genetically smarter than chimps, then the much smaller differences between humans could take far longer, especially given the political opposition”
If the changes in these HAR5 drives gene expression to change the brain during embryonic development, then the same could happen to humans too. Epigenetic inheritance/heritability is not accounted for in GWAS/GCTA, heritability estimates. Therefore there is a confound that’s not accounted for and is something else that biases heritability estimates upward since epigenetic heritability is not taken into account. Epigenetic heritability appears as ‘genetic’ in these estimates when the DNA methylation/histone modification is caused by environmental factors, such as stress or the mother being exposed to lead in the womb which then can get transgenerationally inherited to the mother’s grandchildren!
Our results suggest that Pb exposure during pregnancy affects the DNA methylation status of the fetal germ cells, which leads to altered DNA methylation in grandchildren’s neonatal dried blood spots. This is the first demonstration that an environmental exposure in pregnant mothers can have an epigenetic effect on the DNA methylation pattern in the grandchildren.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14466
So the paper lends credence to developmentally plastic differences between two species (well known of course) and is pretty conclusive about the effects too.
And what do ya know? Racial differences in DNA methylation are present at birth. The methylated DNA can possibly explain differences between blacks and whites in the acquisition of cancer. So you don’t know about methylation patterns between the races that cause X and Y etc. I suspect to find some pretty surprising things.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3429933/
Get into epigenetics, the Neo-Darwinists are in for a huge awakening.
Before I begin, SNPs cause differences in genetic variation
differences are variation
—the nucleotides—between individuals and therefore cause differences in the recipe for proteins that are in our genes. So, of course, it’s controlled by the intelligent system just like intelligent cells, DNA on its own is not a cause and does nothing on its own unless it’s activated
Right. The SNPs are causal in some people but not in others.
So this is evidence for epigenetic changes causing brain size differences between humans and chimps, good to know.
Ok, but as you know: Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression (active versus inactive genes) that do not involve changes to the underlying DNA sequence — a change in phenotype without a change in genotype — which in turn affects how cells read the genes. But HARE5 is an example of how a change to the DNA sequence itself caused our brain size to skyrocket, and that’s proven by the fact that when they edit the DNA of a mouse embryo to have human HARE5, its brain growth explodes. So it’s changing the DNA that’s causing the brain growth, not changing its expression.
Greg Cochran’s attitude towards cognitive epigenetics:
Fugget About It
see 15 min mark of below video:
Epigenetic heritability appears as ‘genetic’ in these estimates when the DNA methylation/histone modification is caused by environmental factors, such as stress or the mother being exposed to lead in the womb which then can get transgenerationally inherited to the mother’s grandchildren!
Yes, I can see how that would bias heritability estimates for some traits, but if you’re arguing Lamarckian evolution, Dawkins seems skeptical (see 2:40 in below video):
“Right. The SNPs are causal in some people but not others.”
Not my point. The physiological system still drives the transcription of the genes which carry out those processes. The system still is the cause of the variation.
Yes, HARE5 changed its expression, epigenetics.
Boyd and co‐workers crossed the list of HARs with publicly available datasets of genome regions displaying epigenetic signatures of enhancer activity in various neurodevelopmental cell types
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5054932/
More work still needs to go into this to show how it increased human brain size, so your point you’re trying to prove isn’t proven. What is beginning to look like to be true is that this is one example of heritable epigenetic change.
I don’t care about what Cochran says. I’ll watch it later. But epigenetics is a real phenomenon, you can’t deny it. Only the most stubborn of the Neo Darwinists don’t like it.
“but if you’re arguing Lamarckian evolution, Dawkins seems skeptical”
Dawkins seems skeptical because it up ends a lot of his career. His selfish gene theory is wrong. There is no empirical basis for it, it’s just a metaphor. Of course he feels threatened that the gene is not the only unit of heredity.
“I.M.: You believe that complex organisms do not go in for Lamarckian evolution?
M.E.: Not at all. As we have said elsewhere. Not everything that is inherited is genetic. There are systems that transmit information between generations at a supragenetic level. With these, adaptations that occur during life are coupled far more directly with the information that the organism transmits to the next generation. Consequently, through the supragenetic inherit systems, complex organisms can pass on some acquired characters. So Lamarckian evolution is certainly possible for them. In the next three chapters we describe these additional inheritance systems—the epigenetic, the behavioral, and the symbolic—and. Show how they have both direct and indirect influences on evolutionary change.” (Jablonka and Lamb, 2014: 106)
Dawkins, Coyne, Cochran, they’re all scared of what the reality of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance means not only for human health and evolution but evolution as a whole.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14466
Let´s see:
– N only 39
– no actual physiological changes in the grandchildren are shown, only correlations between blood lead level and altered DNA methylation
– grandmother´s blood lead level is inferred from mother´s neonatal BLL, not measured
– DNA methylation normalises post-natal
– “It remains to be determined whether Pb-exposure dependent epigenetic changes are observed in larger and more diverse cohorts, and whether they affect neurodevelopment or other phenotypes associated with high BLL.”
Conclusion: Study is unconvincing, but if these changes actually have an effect, they are likely part of the unshared environment in behavioral genetics studies (developmental noise).
In order to count as unshared environment, they would have to show up in people, yet not show up in their identical twin raised in the same home. Not sure why that would happen.
You´re right, I was thinking of random nonheritable variation somehow. Stupid me.
JC Denton,
Valid points.
“Conclusion: Study is unconvincing, but if these changes actually have an effect, they are likely part of the unshared environment in behavioral genetics studies (developmental noise).”
No.
They’d appear as genetic but be induced by environmental changes.
DNA methylation is “promising for non-shared environmental studies because the methylome is both responsive to the environment and governs gene expression, thus potentially creating a pathway from environmental effects through gene expression to behaviour.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3147062/
Developmental noise? Surely you’re aware of embryonic development and how the cells respond to the environment around it during development?
The study of epigenetics severely hampers behavioral genetic studies. Because without accounting for heritable epigenetic variation, heritability estimates and studies on heritability would strongly overestimate those heritability estimates. Do you agree with that?
There is evidence that blood lead exposure can effect epigenetic marks which then interfere with brain development and function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555228/
You’re right, I jumped to too large of a conclusion with that previous study I cited. However evidence is beginning to mount for this, and other, and how it affects not only our embryonic development, but our evolution as a whole.
I admit I came across very strong and was very definitive with my previous comments on blood lead levels and epigenetic marks. Won’t happen again. Thanks for catching me.
PP, Cochran, Coyne, Dawkins, et al who deny the effects of epigenetics on human evolution are in for a huge awakening.
It’s getting messy for behavioral genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23095378/
A quote from the last paper I cited:
“And DNA can no longer be considered the sole agent of inheritance. We now know that the epigenome, which regulates gene expressivity, can be inherited via the germline. These developments are particularly significant for behavior genetics for at least three reasons: First, epigenetic regulation, DNA variability, and somatic mosaicism appear to be particularly prevalent in the human brain and probably are involved in much of human behavior; second, they have important implications for the validity of heritability and gene association studies, the methodologies that largely define the discipline of behavior genetics; and third, they appear to play a critical role in development during the perinatal period and, in particular, in enabling phenotypic plasticity in offspring”
RaceRealist,
I agree that my conclusion after “Study is unconvincing” was wrong.
“The study of epigenetics severely hampers behavioral genetic studies. Because without accounting for heritable epigenetic variation, heritability estimates and studies on heritability would strongly overestimate those heritability estimates. Do you agree with that?”
No, I don´t really see a problem there. Inherited epigentic changes are part of the genetic variation as measured in twin/adoption studies. I think you are confusing this with early environmental influences which trigger epigenetic changes, but this still would not mean that heritability is strongly overestimated.
“There is evidence that blood lead exposure can effect epigenetic marks which then interfere with brain development and function.”
Yes, that´s an environmentally induced DNA change which also changes the phenotype. The big question is “Are these acquired changes transmitted from parents to children, or do they affect only the parents?”. Until I have conclusive evidence to the contrary, my answer is “no, only the parents”.
“You’re right, I jumped to too large of a conclusion with that previous study I cited. However evidence is beginning to mount for this, and other, and how it affects not only our embryonic development, but our evolution as a whole.”
I hope that this study is not representative of epigenetic studies in general. If so, it would be hard for me to take anything seriously coming out of that field. Are there even studies which show that acquired traits are transfered from one generation to the next that are reliable (meaning “replicated several times”)?
“It’s getting messy for behavioral genetics.”
I don´t think so, but we´ll see.
Okay, epigenetic inheritance exists: How does it change the estimates of twin/adoption studies if it has the same practical effect as a regular genetic mutation, even if it technically isn´t one?
“Inherited epigentic changes are part of the genetic variation as measured in twin/adoption studies.”
Incorrect.
Note that this environmental source of variation will appear in the behavioral genetics twin-study statistics as genetic variation; quite probably another way in which heritability estimates are distorted. (Richardson, 2017: 129)
The folly of behavioral genetics is to assume that genes, on their own, are causes. But we now know that organisms existed without genes in the distant past. How about the fact that genes aren’t additive in the sense that BGs talk about them in?
… these conclusions are erroneous due to large violations of the additivity assumption underlying behavioral genetics methods – that sources of genetic and shared and nonshared environmental variance are independent and non-interactive.
Click to access 10.1016%40j.ssresearch.2015.02.011.pdf
I’d love to discuss twin studies later. Tons of problems with them. The additive genes are a huge one.
“I think you are confusing this with early environmental influences which trigger epigenetic changes, but this still would not mean that heritability is strongly overestimated.”
I’m not, but that comes into play as well. Even environmental effects that occur in the womb are assumed to be ‘genetic’.
“The big question is “Are these acquired changes transmitted from parents to children, or do they affect only the parents?”. Until I have conclusive evidence to the contrary, my answer is “no, only the parents”.”
The best studied is the Dutch Winter Famine. Sixty people were studied who were conceived during the famine. They noticed that they had lower methylation of IGF DMR (insulin-like growth factor 2 which is a key growth hormone).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579375/
Another recent pre-print states that exposure to famine changes expression in genes that are responsible for adiposity and insulin resistance. That’s very telling to me why those things occur. If you’re exposed to famines in the womb/your grandparents were, then that information can bypass the germline and affect your embryonic development and change expression in relevant genes. This is driven by intelligent cells. Cells are intelligent, can react to their environment and direct and organism’s development.
“These observations … led to the notion that the number and fraction of signal transduction genes can be used as a measure of the “Bacteria IQ”.”
https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-11-710
… if we were to leave terms such as “human” and “brain” out of the defining features of “intelligence,” all forms of life – from microbes to humans – exhibit some or all characteristics consistent with “intelligence.”
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2014.00379/full
Now that you know that cells are intelligent, can think and respond to environmental stimuli, now think about how we’re made of cells and how our intelligent physiological system is also. Also think of how the intelligent system directs genes for use by said intelligent system. Then it will become clear.
“Are there even studies which show that acquired traits are transfered from one generation to the next that are reliable (meaning “replicated several times”)?”
Here’s a review of epigenetics in human evolution.
https://academic.oup.com/biohorizons/article/doi/10.1093/biohorizons/hzx007/4055609
But as for ‘replicated several times?’, I am unaware. Do you mean acquired traits in humans or the whole animal kingdom?
“I don´t think so, but we´ll see.”
Genes don’t work how BGs think they do.
“How does it change the estimates of twin/adoption studies if it has the same practical effect as a regular genetic mutation, even if it technically isn´t one?”
It’s not the same as a regular genetic mutation since it’s induced by the environment. I need a citation for your claim that epigenetic inheritance is accounted for in heritability/GCTA/GWAS estimates.
By the way Greg Cochran wrote a shirt piece about epigenetics recently. I responded and said the person he was talking about was right. He gives me some vague garbage that’s slowly being over turned the more we learn about genes and the system and the rest of his comment was just idiotic attacks and appeals to authority. Well if he wants to go that route, where’s his authority? No just because you have a PhD in physics and wrote a book on human evolution doesn’t make you an expert.
https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/11/03/i-am-not-a-moron/#comment-97713
His reply left a ton to be desired and his idiotic attacks are irrelevant. Data and arguments matter, not qualifications.
“Incorrect.”
I think there´s still a misunderstanding: If acquired epigenetic marks are passed on from parent to offspring and are not ereased, they become part of the offspring´s DNA just like a mutation and therefore contribute to the genetic variation without being genes themselves. They can only be classified as a environmental source of variation in the parent generation where they appear for the first time.
“The folly of behavioral genetics is to assume that genes, on their own, are causes. But we now know that organisms existed without genes in the distant past. How about the fact that genes aren’t additive in the sense that BGs talk about them in?”
BG studies differentiate between additive and nonadditive components (narrow-sense vs. broad-sense heritability).
“The best studied is the Dutch Winter Famine. Sixty people were studied who were conceived during the famine. They noticed that they had lower methylation of IGF DMR (insulin-like growth factor 2 which is a key growth hormone).”
Only sixty? Do the children of these people also have lower methylation of IGF DMR?
“Now that you know that cells are intelligent, can think and respond to environmental stimuli, now think about how we’re made of cells and how our intelligent physiological system is also. Also think of how the intelligent system directs genes for use by said intelligent system. Then it will become clear.”
Cells are intelligent and can think? I honestly don´t know what to make of this. Sounds pretty esoteric to me.
“Here’s a review of epigenetics in human evolution.”
Thank you.
“But as for ‘replicated several times?’, I am unaware. Do you mean acquired traits in humans or the whole animal kingdom?”
In humans. So you don´t know anything about replications? At least two of the papers you cited state that their findings are in need of confirmation. In view of the replication crisis, I remain somewhat sceptical of unconfirmed findings.
“It’s not the same as a regular genetic mutation since it’s induced by the environment. I need a citation for your claim that epigenetic inheritance is accounted for in heritability/GCTA/GWAS estimates.”
I didn´t mention GCTA/GWAS.
For many IQ tests or scholastic test, you’ve got the raw score. So you have an interval scale not forced into the bell curve available for many tests (SAT, GMAT, LSAT, GRE, Wechsler, Cattell, Binet etc.)
I think you can rule out the exponential hypothesis by analysing LSAT and Mega test raw scores .
For LSAT (https://www.alphascore.com/resources/lsat-score-conversion/).
average is : 55/100. More than 100K test takers each year.
+1 sd : +18 (73)
-1sd : -16 (39)
+2sd: +13 (86)
-2sd :-13 (26
+3sd : +8
-3sd : -11 (15)
Mensa believes 83 is 132 IQ (2.1sd). From those scores with no spatial (verbal and numerical), you see that the gains are of decreasing value.
For Mega test (http://miyaguchi.4sigma.org/hoeflin/meganorm.html)
average is 15/48 (139 IQ). A total of 4050 test taken.
+1sd : +11 (26) (152 IQ)
+2sd : +15 (41) (172IQ)
+3sd : +4(out of +7 possible) (45) (183 IQ)
Mega test is heavily verbal (36 out of 48 questions) but the caracteristic of increased score between 3 and 4.5 sd and extreme reduction between 4,5 sd and 5.5 sd. In fact the highest score was 46 (Vos Savant) . Langan has a 47 score after second attempt (42 first try). Nobody had perfect score. So out of 40 person who scored above 41 (2sd above test takers), only 1 had + 5 points, wich is 1/3 of the previous interval. If it had remained constant, 20 people should have scores 48.
So the hypothesis of exponential (or even increasing intelligence) should be probably ruled out.
With Mega test, the interval corresponding with 1sd is equal to the average score. So maybe if questions were much more difficult , let’s say average score is 8 out of 48, we could have a constant or increased interval for each sd. But that would never correspond to an exponential function.
That’s why the bell curve (+ a bit more peole at each extreme of the curve) seems to be a good approximation of abilities as for height.
Interesting way of thinking about it. I’m re-taking the LSAT December 2, btw. Wish me luck!
Good luck Gond ! you want to do attend law school ? I heard they take GRE now, even Harvard, so LSAT is really if you want only law school I suppose.
Or you could launch a prep school for latino and black people in Florida who wants to improve their score in all scholastic exam, with publicity aimed at your high score and origin. It must pay good money, if you have 500 kids at 2K pro year, you’ve got a 1M euro business. I would be very bad as that because I’m so sory when people doesn’t understand things that either they would notice either I would have to make a tiring effort to shut up ….
The reason math/spatial goes off scale is because its selected for by Master and not by the environment or interacting with people.
You don’t need to be able to do integration to get laid or convince people to make you a messiah.
If you test people high in math IQ, I would put money on them being socially less intelligent as a trade off. The trade off is not a ‘wild coincidence’. I’ve said it for 1 year now – the trade off is purposely socially engineered by Master.
If you were lets say, a dictator of a country. You would much much rather deal with a 100% east asian population than a 100% jewish or even MENA population for fear of assasination, conspiracy, blackmail, treason etc.
[rest of comment redacted by pp, nov 13, 2017]
agree completely
this theory is not original to pill. i heard it first from david suzuki on the Nature of Things. that man is for the most part a domesticated animal. first man domesticates plants and animals. this is the agricultural revolution. then man domesticates other men. this is the industrial revolution.
the shrinking human brain is consistent with domestication. all domesticated animals have smaller brains than their wild counterparts.
[redacted by pp, nov 14, 2017]
WHAT’s being redacted, I’m curious to know.
at a quarter to ten you know it’s drivin again…
Its not a bell curve. Thats obvious. Look at your high school. Do you think the people in your entire grade level were a bell curve? I would say the lean is definitely on the left side towards dumbness. I would suggest that the extreme levels of intelligence are actually much smarter than the average as the promethan suggests, especially in math IQ. Of 100 people there were only sth like 8 or 9 that could do applied math class in my school and within that class the ability diverged wildly.
I remember there was one guy who was a math olympics representative for my country in this small town I grew up in. He was definitely ‘odd’ but not aspergers like my friend from that class who went on to do a Phd in Engineering. Everyone in that class went on to do hard science type subjects except me, who did econ + philosophy (initially).
High school shows that this type of intelligence is selected against as smarter people are a lot more likely to be bullied than borderline retardates like my cousins or dad. Aspergers people fall into the ‘smarter people’ bullyable category. There are many professional athletes, who are not black, who would be considered borderline retardates…but they never get bullied.
Being bullied has nothing to do with size by the way. My friend was big enough to play prop in rugby and was harassed. I think the instinct that kids show towards bullying someone and why they would bully someone is very indicative of a lot of things about how their life will be.
I was not bullied in school because I had 2 very jock type friends. But I was definitely low T and extremely socially anxious until I toughened up and hit the gym.
I cannot tell who was at the same level of verbal intelligence or near me. Its much less obvious because judging verbal ability is very subjective. You don’t really cover English or languages in a proper ‘testing’ way to judge. As far as I can tell, I was the highest VIQ in the school and the ‘g loading’ meant that I could be passable at math but nowhere near the people above. Although VIQ does not kind of diverge as wildly as quant, I would guess there is much less of a tradeoff to social intelligence for whatever reason.
I was always nerdy/clever but was never bullied, ever. I was a bully. Testosterone/social behavior determines if you’re bullied or not. I sit near the center of the room, rather than the edges. I don’t talk much, but I always look people dead in the eyes.
No social anxiety or awkwardness. Just non-talkative.
The most commonly bullied are Asians, then Indians, then Nordics. MENA, Blacks, Mediterraneans are very rarely bullied.
Bullying or being bullied was for me a way of understanding the importance of the social dimension of life.
I was never bullied before 12. Then, only one day, an uber-bullier guy (big red hair) who had been martyrizing many poor guys, tried to annoy me by throwing some of my pens during a class. I know I told myself I have to stop this immediately.
This is what I did : I took a big iron compass for work on wood (from another classroom). I expected he would try to join me at my lunch table to continue his harrasment. So I choose a place with only one guy and two spots available. He came to me as expected. He asked my neighbour if he could take some bread, and with his arm, throw my glass of water in my tray. I had my compass prepared in my hand under the table. I asked him “can I see something” while gently directing his hand on his dry tray. Quickly, I planted and fixed his hand with the compass (1 inch). All the tray was covered with lots of his blood. He was so impressed he fainted. I said it was an accident (it was completely non sens !). The other guy said he didn’t see what had happened. As I was a good pupil, with no violence history, and he was known to be a bullier, I wasn’t disciplined (had only a formal warning). After that some pupils were very scared of me (they thought I was crazy) and some cool guys wanted to befriended me – because they like violent people – but I wasn’t interested in their friendship. No more bullying.
But I have been told many times of people hatred against me (to my astonishment because I don’t care about people business). Also I discovered I have always been considered someone punchy/stoned/weird. People told me I look like someone who is very high on drugs all the time and at the same time very calm (with bizarre expressions, lost and stoned looking, sharp laughing eyes, overall sad expression, told me my ex girlfriend). But inside, I don’t fee any of those emotions at all. I feel very normal (some empathy, not too much) and my internal monologue.
What scared me today is that I “remember” I had a second part plan in case he would iterated in even the mildest way (I was prepared even for a verbal humiliation). The plan involved assaulting him from his biked – I knew his way home in bicycle through some woods – and chopping off both his eyes. I realize how bad it would have been for both of us if he had continued. Now that I have read the book with many comments from doctor Asperger – and the incredible violence he found in some of his little patients – I understand where that comes from. I was very lucky not to grow up in a bad neighborhood.
We didn’t have minorities in my school. There were zero minorities or it was very rare in my time. The country I grew up in is extremely masculine and there is a long historic tradition of martial combat and fighting. When I was younger I used to do quite a lot of wrestling which I was very good at. I think in something like 50 fights with other guys in my neighbourhood, I lost once and passed out instead of tapping.
Yes, you could karate chop an entire army with your bare hands and punch out your enemy’s eyes with your cock.
it’s hard to tell you’re black.
african-americans often have slave master or irish blood so they are always variably smarter than say, the nigerians and congolese i encounter in london who are mentally retarded.
Yes, seriously I am good at that kind of fighting. Same when I tried BJJ in college. People much bigger than me have to lie on top of me, they can’t submit me. But when I tried boxing, Im not good.
I think i could have done very well in philosophy if I stuck with it. Become an author or something. I would basically use my book to explain why philosophy today is not philosophy but a purposeful attempt to prevent anyone writing philosophy in fact.
Kind of funny the book would be. i would just quote analytical philosopher and put ‘trollin Y/N’ and a tickbox beside each quote.
I think one of my life goals is probably to write a book on philosophy in fact and covering all the areas I bring up here – ethics, political philosophy, logical reasoning, the mind, aesthetics and epistemology. There would be zero linguistics in it. In fact I would basically devote a passage to explaining if you couldn’t understand what Im saying the problem isn’t the words on the page but your lack of intelligence, or my lack of social intelligence to be able to explain it in a convenient way.
Sth like: And so in the voyage between two mountains we learn the problem the traveller faces is not the lack of a road, the hypothetical lack of a perfect road or even natural hazards and wildlife, but simply the lack of ingenuity and craft on the part of the traveller.
Probably something to that effect for my linguistics section.
Donald Trump has social intelligence because he gets that you have to use childish metaphors and analogies sometimes to talk to people rather than something your PR firm cooked up after a few nights on cocaine.
Pumpkin person should read a book explaining what science is and what it can say and what Stephen Jay Gould said and why that isn’t science. Saying a tendency like the bell curve is the exact experience is a sleight of hand. I would bet most insurance companies don’t actually see bell curves in most of the classes they cover. Robert you know anything about this?
If you actually do it and flip a coin 100 times, you will not get 50-50. Thats the rub of what I’m saying.
no, i don’t know.
Also PP, can you find a physiological trait that is stable and normally distributed? I bet one doesn’t exist because most, if not all, physiological traits aren’t stable (resting metabolic rate, heart rate, white blood cell count, stroke volume, etc) and they’re not normally distributed. (Worth noting that the heritability of BMR is between .4 and .8, which is the same as IQ heritability. Using the same IQ logic, is a higher BMR ‘better’ than a lower BMR?).
IQ has a high heritability. IQ is said to be physiological. If IQ is physiological then it doesn’t mirror any known physiologic trait. Take physiological variables with the same heritability range of IQ. Is a higher value better? Is a higher stroke volume better? These are the questions that need to be answered if IQ/g is truly physiological.
This is part of my larger overarching argument on g and physiology. I will of course go in much more depth to prove my arguments.
peepee is a black lesbian. why are you arguing with her?
Also PP, can you find a physiological trait that is stable and normally distributed? I bet one doesn’t exist because most, if not all, physiological traits aren’t stable (resting metabolic rate, heart rate, white blood cell count, stroke volume, etc) and they’re not normally distributed.
Well I could say the ability to reach top shelves, but I’m not sure that counts as a physiological trait.
So instead I’ll say reaction time. It’s stable if Jensen can be believed. On page 73 of Clocking the Mind he mentions that for repeated measures of RT obtained on different days or even on the same day hours apart, the test-retest reliability is generally slightly lower than odd-even reliability obtained within a single session. Since on page 72 he mentioned that odd-even reliability is about 0.9, we can guess that daily/hourly stability is around 0.8.
Subjectively complex reaction times have a heritability of 0.67 according to Beaujean (2005), implying that kids adopted in random homes would have a genotype-phenotype correlation of 0.82. Since genotypes are extremely stable, complex reaction times could not correlate so highly with them unless they were stable too.
Jensen also notes that reaction time is roughly normally distributed (from page 165 of Clocking the Mind):
In a truly random population of 900 middle-aged adults (age around 56 years) in Scotland…the distributions of both RT and IQ were close to normal (perfectly Gaussian for the middle 95 percent of the distribution)…(Deary, Der & Ford, 2001; also see Der and Deary, 2003 for further analysis of these data).
Nothing like the San Siro in football. Such an intimidating place. Theres a constant murmur in the crowd even if nothing is going on. Italy look like they will be knocked out of the world cup.
Fenoopy is kind of right about the med basin being the real cradle of civilisation. But he is completely kidding himself that the maghreb and north african countries are anywhere near the level of nordic nations over the past 400 years. It is a long time since Eygpt was worth invading. There’s been a theory that the original eygptians are not the ones there today.
but you just invaded libya and stole all our gold. we had better quality of life than all of eastern europe.
bombed the shit out of syria and iraq too.
got to keep the MENA down.
maybe we should take a look at the native (amazigh tribal) Egyptians.
looks Egyptian to me.
generally, you should look at the natives, not the Bedouin Arabs that multiply like vermin to find the original inhabitants.
in 100 years your white countries are going to be filled with low-iqs too and we’ll be in Asia wondering if they were the original whites.
Bedouins look like this. Awful similar to the hordes filling modern Egypt today.
that’s nazi propaganda. the mummies and modern egyptians are the same people.
just another proof that HBD is stupid. i’m sure sumerians would score higher on an IQ test than their german contemporaries.
greek and roman civilization comes after civilization in egypt and the fertile crescent.
one thing that has changed in these places is they’re a lot drier than they were. iraq didn’t used to be a desert. tunisia and libya were the bread basket of the roman empire. so climate change and a silly religion ruins you. if the menas lowered their tfr and made use of their women they’d do a lot better. even the ones without oil are a lot better than black africa and mestizo america.
” There’s been a theory that the original eygptians are not the ones there today.
Please tell me you’re not taking about the book The March of the Titans. That book is garbage.
There is sometimes a guy here named JS that says similar things about Spain. Spain hasn’t been a world power for about 500 years. But its interesting to wonder why is went into decline so deeply despite all the advantages it had in a great navy and its colonies. I’m not an expert in that history but I did read an interesting paper once explaining why Latin America became a failed state and northern america, including Canada, prospered and the difference was basically the way land rights were offered to settlers.
Steve Sailer makes a very interesting point that if you look at the elites of all south american nations, esp the elites the CIA tend to back, the are direct descendants, linial descendants of the people the queen or king of spain gave land to 500 years ago. It explains everything.
The problem was not enough revolutions in Latin america. Not too few ‘red uprisings’.
This is why I say socialist economic policies are more efficient in that they pass water from one central bucket to many others thereby increasing ‘wetness’ of the overall piping in the economy.
One of the things I’ve seen in my life that seperates whether you are a jock or whether you get bullied is fear of pain. If you don’t fear pain – social, physical or psychological, people will tend to not see you as a target.
One of the core features of masculinity in my opinion is pain tolerance. Not risk tolerance per se. If you can tolerate pain, you tend to have higher risk preferences. Its related to pain more than risk.
The extreme example of this is of course blacks, who if you notice, don’t really fear dying. I don’t mean this in an offhand way. I think they genuinely are psychologically less scared of death. This explain a lot of their behaviours. R selected peoples evolve for places where people get killed in their sleep.
Would be interesting to see a study of PTSD/shellshock among blacks vs whites/latinos/asians.
blacks just try to imitate arabs, who genuinely aren’t afraid of death.
because they’re a part of the islam cult (believe death is glorious/desired).
‘chiraq’ etc.
‘taliban chris’.
they idolize them. twerking is just arabic ‘belly dancing’ niggerfied.
wish they were egyptians, too.
wish they were moors.
Very interesting. I agree fear of pain is created with low testosterone. Most blacks don’t fear or experience much physical or emotional pain, at least not compared to whites.
it’s more subtle than that.
isaiah thomas’s performance in the finals was attributed to his “pain tolerance”.
but how much of “pain tolerance” is simply “not feeling the pain”?
thomas and magic were also fags.
…and the engine just gleams.
“blacks just try to imitate arabs, who genuinely aren’t afraid of death.”
Some low IQ Arabs aren’t afraid of death because they genuinely believe in their stupid religion.
Beyond that Arabs/North Africans are cowards who represent themselves as fearless warriors.
It’s like Jews saying they are poor harmless victims.
If there is one thing Jews/MENAs are good at it’s lying.
In France there is a steoreotype about North Africans saying that if one offers you to meet for a 1v1 fight he will come with a crew.
You should never expect a fair fight with these people.
”it’s more subtle than that.”
he think is a subtle thinker…
it’s sad!1
agree. if you flinch, you’re a pussy
the world is ugly and getting uglier, but there is beauty, real beauty.
reminds me of…
mute the first clip, play the second.
watch the first.
listen to the second.
at the same time.
then tell me you’re an atheist.
I’m an atheist.
the reason i drink is that it makes the world less ugly…
and other people less boring…to quote hitch.
dancing with me…for 15 minutes…
that’s the day i realized there was this entire life behind things…there was no reason to be afraid ever…
the aesthetic and moral sense ridicule atheists.
sense!
i see God.
peepee sees pussy.
sad!
“i see…”
“peepee sees…”
Maybe she is God. (who is she?)
But soda pop is still my favorite.
my what large tits she has
We are deeply wounded inside.
Face the hurt to make is integrated.
Denialism does not work.
PSYCHOTHERAPY – Donald Winnicott
“Because the human mind works in parallel, complex problem solving speed actually doubles every 5 IQ points”.
The evaluation of this statement depends a great deal of what “solving complex problem” means and more precisely the scope of it.
If it’s abouting creating knew knowledge in a very g loaded field (physics, math, economics etc), maybe true, could even underestimate the qualitative nature of the difference, but not verifiable because creativity is mildly correlated with IQ above 120.
If it’s acquiring knowlede in those fields, it’s probably very exagerated. Somenone with 160 IQ would understand in one day, what a 115 regular university student would in 2 years and a 130 in 3 months. But if you structure the syllabus in narrow field with X points, and the complexity of the points increased regularly (let’s say it increases Z%), then I believe the speed would increase Z% too (if the starting point is the normal level of difficulty for the average person dealing with it).
For the rest of mental activities, it’s bullshit. A 160 IQ won’t learn a language, play chess, learn how to play a new game or anything related to a mental skill, 4096 times faster than an average person.
So I believe the rule is true only in a very formal (I mean artificial) environment where you get a set of problems in a narrow field very loaded in g were the difficulty of each problems double each times (because of the depht). Normaly, you get to apply your intelligence to varied matters where the difficulty doesn’t increase. The difficulty is to be able to master the all of it, to produce innovative results, but that’s more creativity related.
So in 99.99_% of all mental activies involved in the world, I believe the rule is false. It overstates the speed while underestimating the qualitative aspect, wich can’t be reduced to time only, as if everyone had the same faculties otherwise.
For the rest of mental activities, it’s bullshit. A 160 IQ won’t learn a language, play chess, learn how to play a new game or anything related to a mental skill, 4096 times faster than an average person
Well someone with a general IQ of 160 will regress to the mean in specific domains like learning chess etc, but if you measure IQ using the same task where you’re timing performance, you may find the pattern.
For example someone with a 160 IQ on the Raven Progressive Matrices may see the solution to the average Raven problem 4,096 times faster than an average person, but this is very hard to verify, because any item easy enough for an average person would be solved so quickly by the genius that it couldn’t be measured reliably, and any item the genius would solve slowly would cause the average person to just give up or guess.
I agree. If there is an environment where the rule may be true, it’s IQ test. And in general, all moments in the thought process where you have to make inferences – either deductive or inductive, in particular when qualifying a situation, object, event or property, and then selecting or combining the rules that must be applied to those entities. But in most mental activities, this part represents only a fraction (both in time and content).
An amusing consequence of this is that the more intelligent a person is, the less the person will actually “think” for any given task .That’s why you see so many “simple” person using expressions about thinking. The higher the IQ, the lonelier you are, because there is no one you could turn to answer day to day questions.
of course it’s bullshit. prometheans have low IQs.
Although most Prometheans would regress to the mean on official IQ tests, they’d still average a lot higher than the Ivy League & some of them are even smarter than their Mega test scores imply
if they qualified as prometheans via a soi-disant IQ test (like the WAIS) or via an IQ test in all but name (like the SAT, ACT, GMAT, LSAT, GRE, MAT, etc.) on their first try, then they’re smart. otherwise they’re not.
langan claimed to have made a perfect SAT score. didn’t he? if he did then he’s smart. even if he seems dumb. he has a moustache after all. and in that Esquire article he wore a stahlhelm.
Langan would completely obliterate you on
1) actual IQ tests like the WAIS
2) college achievement tests like the SAT (he reportedly scored perfect back when only one in a million could do so)
3) online power tests like the Mega
4) chronometrics (alcohol’s probably turned your reaction time to mush)
reportedly…
if he did so then he’s smart.
and he’s part of the BGI study.
haven’t seen his score report
What does he need to join the BGI study for? He’s in the Mega society, which is much harder to get into & much more famous.
my point was that the mega test is stupid.
unless there’s a legit IQ test.
on 20/20 it was claimed that langan had been tested and made the highest score the tester had ever seen.
i’m not calling him stupid. i’m just saying that he’s stupid.
So I believe the rule is true only in a very formal (I mean artificial) environment where you get a set of problems in a narrow field very loaded in g were the difficulty of each problems double each times (because of the depht). Normaly, you get to apply your intelligence to varied matters where the difficulty doesn’t increase
But real life is much less artificial & g loaded than IQ tests, & yet we see exponential differences between high & low performers
Bill Gates makes money many orders of magnitude faster than the average person
There is a lot of other criteria involved. Gates is a good example of the correlation, he was a clever 3sigma boy with a good network and that believed in a new field and was clever enough to surround himself by good people, but most 3sigma+ are far away from being even in the top1%. And if it has been proven that the 1/2.5 sigma are more healthy people, I suspect that the 3 and even more the 4 sigma club, are full of people with mental problems.
I’m a bit sensitive about the money stuff, because one week ago, I was stoned to learn that a guy I was having lunch sometimes – I would said a 120/125 IQ guy, regular engeneer but I’m not sure – had followed one of my comment about Bitcoin, back in 2011.
Back then, reacting to a The economist article, I said that as there would be only 21 M. bitcoins, and thtat the market for crypto-currency should be around 1 trillion (dark web + tax evasion + diversification), if Bitcoin got at least 20% of the market wich was very probable because it started it, bitcoins should go from 30 cents to 10K dollars.
I said that the mitigating risk was a failure of the system (some voluntary geek crooking it) or a US government and UE prohibition that would kill it.
I said if there is 75% chances that happens, the investment was still extremely worth it. More than anything else. I also said that one should fix a certain amount of slot one would like to sell during a certain amount of time and sell each time (provided the time has elapsed) when the price begin to fall.
But I didn’t invest. I was scared of not being able to buy to Bitcoin itself or to be stolen. He did. Now, he has millions (don’t know exactly how many) and 5 000 bitcoins left (worth 35M). I was the one wich provided all the scheme of investment and I invested 0 getting the same out.
German have a word, shadenfreude, when you are happy from someone else misery. The contrary is something like jealusy, but not exactly the same, because I didn’t lose anything from him winning. It’s more the misery from someone else success you envy.
I’m starting to get over it.
Langan had 42 and then 47, wich is the highest score. Knowing the first score, help to get 2 points I believe. So I would say he is the second best score after Vos Savant. The girl has a small head by the way and doesn’t have any characteristic of a genious. She is even a bit of american trash on her origin (grand parents were miners). Sununu wiki said his scoring 44 is an urban legend and that he never took the test.
those kind of stories make me drool
but i just can’t invest, i’m too paranoid, i hate gambling of all sorts
i want 90% certainty at the very least
with my luck, even at 90% i will roll the 10%.
i hate luck.
lagan and savant are completely retarded
So a practical guess, imagine two students wants to learn Macroeconomics by Greg Mankiw wich is a very didactic 20 chapters handbook (500p). That’s a typical learning task and I’ve seen many people doing it (I’ve seen that also with any specialized non introductory law course).
For a 115 IQ, he will need 100 hours for understanding the many rules presented and 200 hours for the rest of the knowledge. At each level you would have
100: 1000 + 500 = 1500
115 : 100 + 200 = 300
130 : 10 + 140 = 150
145 : less than 1 + 100 = 100
160 : 0 (because its obvious from the knowledge) + 75 = 75
The rule applied but only to a fraction of the learning process. The higher the IQ or the less g loaded the field , the lower the resulting gain. I suppose that’s the reason average IQ in Universities is around 115 and 130. Under that score, you can’t cope. Above, the increased advantage in the learning process is lower than the increase rarity.
The general rule in college was that you studied two hours outside of class for every hour in class. So at a run of the mill semi-decent public uni (like Georgia or Alabama or Florida) where the average IQ is around 115, in a class of middling difficulty (maybe not intro macro, but intermediate. Not as hard as STEM but harder than hunanities), you should put in 150 hours of work in the whole semester to get an average grade (B+ at modern grade-inflated universities).
yeah there were some proles who did that.
more like 1 for 1.
Thoughts on James Thompson’s new article?
http://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/
thompson is one of those mentally retarded people who explains the flynn effect with nutrition. does he explain the black african IQ with nutrition too? look at his picture, the way he writes. he’s a typical english striver.
The Flynn effect is partly caused by nutrition
capacity for pattern spotting can be boosted by several drugs
a. alcohol decreases it
b. caffeine significantly increases it
c. lsd ????????? probably not, heard some myths/opinions about micro-doses
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/8eee7caaa287e216bb2b902073f4a6006e569027/829_745_2378_1427/master/2378.jpg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=f5523c9c166653f348211a3e95f98fea
steve jobs -> “Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it.”
“LSD was an incredible experience. Not that I’m recommending it for anybody else; but for me it kind of – it hammered home to me that reality was not a fixed thing. That the reality that we saw about us every day was one reality, and a valid one – but that there were others, different perspectives where different things have meaning that were just as valid. That had a profound effect on me.”
― Alan Moore
“Objects and their functions no longer had any significance. All I perceived was perception itself, the hell of forms and figures devoid of human emotion and detached from the reality of my unreal environment. I was an instrument in a virtual world that constantly renewed its own meaningless image in a living world that was itself perceived outside of nature. And since the appearance of things was no longer definitive but limitless, this paradisiacal awareness freed me from the reality external to myself. The fire and the rose, as it were, became one.”
― Federico Fellini
not that i want to take it. i will go bathsalts crazy and start killing people with a knife/eating peoples faces off or something bad like that, already can’t handle alcohol or other minor drugs.
“In ordinary perception, the senses send an overwhelming flood of information to the brain, which the brain then filters down to a trickle it can manage for the purpose of survival in a highly competitive world. Man has become so rational, so utilitarian, that the trickle becomes most pale and thin. It is efficient, for mere survival, but it screens out the most wondrous parts of man’s potential experience without his even knowing it. We’re shut off from our own world. Primitive man once experienced the rich and sparkling flood of the senses fully. Children experience it for a few months-until “normal” training, conditioning, close the doors on this other world, usually for good. Somehow, the drugs opened these ancient doors. And through them modern man may at last go, and rediscover his divine birthright…”
― Tom Wolfe
creepy.
Gray matter is used to recognize patterns and the white matter is used to rout data of what is considered cognitive mental manipulation. White matter operates on cybernetic principles of ordered feedback so its structure matters. Coordination of the white matter guiding the interactions between gray matter regions is what allows intelligence to function. The greater rate at which gray matter can absorb patterns passing the information between the regions that more intelligence.
The IQ thing may not be able to measure this but I would just call it bandwidth.
Arthur Jensen CEO of Nvidia is friends with Elon Musk and I used to think Elon’s IQ was 150, Now I think Both of them could be 140 or 135. They just have an entrepreneur personality that makes them seem smarter than I projected before.
I bring them up because they are working on A.I. called Open A.I. and it seems to me that even if they can beat that video game tournament the A.I. is a narrow A.I. What I am working on is artificial general intelligence. What they are missing is unsupervised learning and intrinsic motivation by a self-model of the system (the ego, I am, conscious). They may be deliberately not testing sentient A.I. but that just means they are working on a dead end and Elon’s over 10 billion dollars does not make him IQ 150.
A person IQ 170 has a brain that absorbs patters 1,024 times faster than me and manipulates those patterns into new patterns just as fast. This has nothing to do with IQ tests because the tests would not measure their bandwidth accurately and they exist even without the tests existing. I guess the reason I am smart is that I have the personality to search for special patterns that I can use to create new patterns that never existed before, that are worth something intellectually. One would be that I realize A.I. needs a self-model Open A.I. just is not seeing.Their IQ bandwidth is completely wasted on trivial problems. Simply put 170 has high bandwidth. The distribution of the parts of my brain that have high or low bandwidth is all mixed up together. My bandwidth is not consistent throughout my brain but it is coherent (works together evenly) the ability to draw still alludes me.
You are very intelligent anime. I came across some of your old posts too about what you did in school when i was going through some old articles on this site. It was awesome. You know what i did in school? nothing. And I barely even passed. Not to mention your a.g.i model is more advanced and sophisticated than mine( if i even can call mine as one). You are extremely intelligent, and also you have a rare and valuable kind of intelligence (same with PP, i really mean it PP :)). So dont be unhappy about yourself.
the point of the article was to laugh at the high-Q people.
does langan have any clue as to how stupid he looks?

How do the super high IQ people get so much IQ PP? Does it happen like this?:Two 120 iq people meet up get married and have kids, and one of the kids gets a 130+ IQ. And this 130+ IQ kid grows up meets and marries another 130+ IQ person. And later one of their kids gets a 140-150 IQ, and this continues over generations until a 190-200 IQ is born?
I am so amazed by all the high IQ (above 130) people, its like a super power you all have 🙂
i’m thinking i should sell some intesa and buy more caixa.
just plain sad!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/nintchdbpict0003667117771.jpg?strip=all&w=960
and peepee claims my dimensions make me subhuman.
langan and i are similar in dimensions. and in body hair. except i would never grow a ‘tache. it’s the full osama or nothing.
except he claims to have an even larger head.
and my head is so big it’s sad.
my wisdom teeth came in…fine.
look at the shape the world is in, i’ve gotta cut price on salvation and sin…


so long it’s been good to know ya.
they pray for you peepee.
Maybe all forms of ”racism” is indeed a form of MISANDRY… bias against male//masculinity// male emotional stupidity…
We born with
GENETIC MEMORY
because we don’t born without any pre-refferences which are transmitted from our parents in direct or indirect//pre-natal ways [IF most mutations are random, something i doubt].
But we also have ENVIRONMENTAL MEMORY or we will accumulating new memories from our live’s experiences, and this seems individually unique. Indeed, based on our SELF, we never want to become: depressed; ill; addicted…
It’s just like if we have some cars ”zero KM”. Their trajectories will be different and individually speaking, they will be used in different ways.
Even unique individual perspective will prove nothing about the power of environment, which is powerfull anyway because no have life without scenario, but not in the way behaviorists wish. Indeed, individual experiences tends to prove more about the inter-relation between self-awareness, intrinsic/biological/genetic features and environmental challenges.
The only-REAL AND OR DIRECT COLORISM IS
ALBINOPHOBIA….
VITILIGOPHOBIA…
Come on, Langan is smart. The reason Vos Savant can’;t come up with new ideas is actually more of an emotional issue. Bruno is right that I don’t think ‘processing speed’ has anything to do with coming up with theories or insights or analysis.
To be honest, I think a lot of it has to do with how good you are at music/art because that type of pattern recognition is more about ‘feelings’. It doesn’t suprise me at all Einstein was an accomplished violinist.
why do you think langan is smart? he’s christian
certainly, there appear to be two brain types.
asian/nordic math brain, obsession with correlations etc, reason what
greek/roman/mena ideas brain. obsession with intent/reason why
niggers rae probably ideas brain but super stupid
no surprise to me that all novel ideas came from romans/greeks/egyptians/mesopotamians not autistic asians.
funny how the mongols all converted to islam. mena were capable of thinking up some really lethal ideas, like brain viruses.
ideas, not discoveries. discovering paper and gunpowder are just that, discoveries.
those two brain types are the difference between ‘lego-block scientists’ and ‘abstract philosophers’ in my opinion.
all the reformists are black haired. e1b1b1 like hitler
ideas, not discoveries. discovering paper and gunpowder are just that, discoveries.
You’re not making any sense Fenoopy.
Also, please don’t use the N word. When I hear people use that word in real life I stop them cold, even if they’re blacks using it as a term of endearment.
‘lego-block scientists’
‘abstract philosophers’
It takes fluidity to be abstract. Takes more time for integration than chopping things up into neat packets that take away from the fullness of larger complete concepts.
“e1b1b1 like hitler”
Lol. It looks like an afrocentrist claiming jesus was black and that black people intelligence is so superior and different it can’t be mesured by IQ tests.
Indeed, he doesn’t make any sense.
Emotions help with memorization because emotion is energy and energy can move in an infinite verity of ways. Memory looks for new thing/patterns so emotion provides such novelty. I posted a video and you said Animekitty seems to have really feel things in a deep way.
According to this website the University of Cambridge, I am psychologically 40 years old and 90 percent chance female and INTJ. (also includes the big 5) My text was 3,447 characters.
https://applymagicsauce.com/demo.html
I was talking to my social worker and she said It is because women are more emotional. So I said from what I see guys are more direct and chop things up into points. The stereotype is “get to the point”. I am not like that. It seems guys are more blunt and women are more fluid. The way a person acts and social awareness is to get in tune with them to understand and conversate. Tune is in music which is emotional. Which means following movement. Aspies have trouble following movement socially. So the invite is in know knowing the inner movements of people minds. That is why so few female aspies exist. Females follow motions of people to detect mates and nurture the baby. Without emotions, the babies needs cannot be known.
Language is also emotional because inflections (understanding of sounds) are needed to understand semantics. My VIQ is 132 but I am still seen here as an aspie. The reason aspies would score high on VIQ would be from memorizing word definitions without every using or reading the words themselves. With language, a person must express meaning to let others know what their thoughts are so it is important for having a personal theory of mind to express yourself in meaning. I wrote essays all the time and I read books all the time. I continually tried to understand what was being said.
The reason I am not so good at expressing myself here is that I have emotional problems. I have pains in my head and body and I really do not like the feedback I get her sometimes. I have Anxiety which cripples me on the inside and my thoughts disorganize. It has nothing to do with being an aspie. This whole time I have been saying detecting motion is important and is what emotions are used for in social development. I do not have a problem genetical as in my genetics cause me to be unable to see into the motions of others minds. I have been depressed and socially isolated such a long time it only appears that this is how I started as a kid and remained so. I was not like this before. I felt that nothing I ever did mattered and have been in the mental health system for 10 years. Having no purpose in your life cripples you and having extreme anxiety from trying to find purpose also cripples you. My social environment and my life goals are getting better defined. I trust that some of you might accept that I am trying my best. My processing speed is really low and the doctor says I have a learning disability. It is like part of my mind is crippled but it is not the social or theory of mind part.
Putting in what I just wrote the results shift.
The previous text is more fluid and thus why it registered as female.
What if just like how there are known to be seven or eight major kinds of intelligences, there could different kinds of creativity too? Like art creativity, music creativity, mechanical creativity? concept creativity? etc. And a person can have more than one kind of creativity also. Is it possible to categorise creativity like this? maybe PP can do an article about this? what do you think pp? does the idea make sense?
Theres a conspiracy theory out there that Einstein is a fraud and copied his ideas from someone. I think there’s a lot of facts out there that would debunk that. But of course, suspect no.1 is what we know about the judens from HBD theory.
And so, you can see not all conspiracy theories are true.
Pumpkin is correct. Just because your wife didn’t send you the videotape of her blowing her tennis coach after her ‘session’, doesn’t mean your wife isn’t cheating. Its obvious IQ is at least partially heritable from twin studies. But the other thing we must factor is that (a) I suspect IQ may be a regressive trait like blue eyes and so direct parents might have nothing to do with it per se (b) mutations like myself (c) the pre-natal environment, specifically whether the mother talks drugs/pharmaceuticals or smokes/drinks or is under acute psychological stress.
That psychologist Badcock is a genius. Just to say that autism read: androgny is not in between male and female but lack of male and female is a brilliant thing to suggest.
It makes sense when you see that aspies seem to have very ‘gray’ personalities, lack of dreams, lack of imaginations, lack of emotional vigour.
Can you say schiz then is the hyper male and female combo? Its interesting to think about.
[redacted by pp, nov 15, 2017]
”It makes sense when you see that aspies seem to have very ‘gray’ personalities, lack of dreams, lack of imaginations, lack of emotional vigour.”
But seems it’s not ALL or most of them who have this features…
”androgny is not in between male and female but lack of male and female is a brilliant thing to suggest.”
Androgyny IS about mix between typical male with typical female features. You can create a new word to describe your idea but not use it to describe androgyny: a neutral personalities…
Oops, i thought you don’t believe in words meaning…. 😉
Django Django are the quintessential ‘London’ sound. The Shoreditch one anyway. I used to spend a lot of time in the ace hotel and heard them there first.
Rachel Maddow is prime evidence that the worst thing jews do to people isn’t what they do, but what they make people become under their ‘guidance’. I call them the Necromancer because I can’t tell the difference between what they do to someones mind and casting an evil curse. Honestly, its kind of odd how Rachel says these things without any cog dissonance because I know Rachel is not that type of person. She doesn’t strike me as a psychopath at all. I think she is definitely under an evil spell.
Rachel Maddow is half-Jewish, pill.
1/4
So I was thinking about Hollywood and if you believe Angelina jolie brazenly rejected Weinstein as a young actress and still became an A list star it might provide some succour to the idea that not all actresses are glorified prostittutes.
This scandal puts into perspective Marsha’s life choices actually. With Marsha there is a lot more integrity and personal anti-turpitude there I think than say, Nicole Kidman or Jennifer Lawrence.
A casting coach under duress:
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pandesiaworld.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2FJennifer-Lawrence-Naked-02.jpg&f=1
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livescience.com%2Fimages%2Fi%2F000%2F058%2F361%2Foriginal%2Froma.jpg%3Finterpolation%3Dlanczos-none%26downsize%3D*%3A1000&f=1
The roma people or ‘gypsies’ look like they are south asian, despite being in europe for over 900 years.
The ashkenazis do not look anything like lebanese people despite being subject to even greater discrimination and religious hate.
I JUST DON MAKE NO SENS–AHH!
The Roma are from India.
“Makes no sense”, Except when you actually consider that
A. Jews have been in europe Longer.
B. Roman entered as descendants of dalits, limiting their occupations compared to more merchant based Jews.
C. Due to headstart, and the nature of Judaism during their intial arrival, they managed to have more female converts while Roman entered as a small population while Christainity was fortifying. They were originally of Non christain affiliation.
D. Worst dsicrimination?
Slavery, expulsions, ethnic cleansing, and geographic restriction were not unknown to the gyspies in their early history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Arrival_in_Europe
In comparison, being able to partake in economic advantages udring the Middle ages, Jews had more benefits.
Undermining the discrimination of others, ((Philosopher))?
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globaleye.org.uk%2Fsecondary_spring06%2Feyeon%2Fimages%2Fyoungpeople.jpg&f=1
“Genetic cousins” of Chuck Schumer. Makes sense if you are retarded and enjoy eating lies for breakfast. Your friend. Phil.
Excuse me, are these people any closer?
BTW, I gave you a chance to actually prove you Khazar Hypothesis. Zilch.
So lets see, North Central Italians are supposed to be Atlanto Med, Alpine, and Dinaric, with a hint of Keltic Nordic (central European Nordic.
Southern italians are described as Gracile Med, Armenoid, and Alpine. The ones you show were of the Med variety, being darker and narrow featured. that’s far from the only type you see in Italy.
Khazars are Armenoid by theory (despite explanation of genetic by Jm8)
How do European categorize Shumer?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?98397-Charles-quot-Chuck-quot-Schumer-American-Senator
Alpine+ Armenoid. The Armenoid could also be subtstituted with Dinaric.
So, once again, Italian partial ancestry out on top.
BTW,
Phil:
“Khazars are Armenoid by theory”
I’m not quite sure about that. Khazars were from/based in the Northern and Central Caucasus (with a likely significant mongoloid admixture from Central Asia) rather than the south: and Armenia and Anatolia/North Levant where Armenoid tendencies are stronger. Armenians are closer to peoples from the North of the Middle East like Anatolians, Persians, Kurds, and some North Levantines like North Syrians (Armenia is south of the North and Central Caucasus and much of its population lived somewhat south of where it is now before the later Ottoman era). the North and Central Caucasus is somewhat genetically and phenotypically different/distinct from the South.
The North and Central Caucasus would likely have some Armenoid affinities, but it would also have some tendencies in common with nearby Eastern Europe to the North (I’m guessing greater alpine-like tendencies, or the Eastern European equivalent?, with a trend toward broader or squarer faces, stouter features and broader/shorter heads, relative to more southern Anatolian, Armenian and Levantine types—but nonetheless being more southern/armenoid-like than the Eastern Europeans and Uralic types even further north, north of the Caucasus.
Ashkenazim are largely/strongly Mediterranean, but with some combination of Armenoid/Armenoid-like, and Alpine+Dinaric tendencies. (strongly Levantine-like/East Med-like but with some somewhat significant Southern and Central European admixture, as the genetic and historical evidence shows—and North and Central Italy having a mixture of Med and Central European tendencies).
According to Coon, from “Races of Europe”
“The physical composition of the central European Jewish body has not been difficult to determine. The Ashkenazim are a reasonably uniform people in a statistical sense; furthermore, many of their metrical characters, as far as we know them, are not markedly different from those of their Mediterranean Jewish ancestors. The facial diameters, for example, relate them closely to the Mediterranean prototype, in strong contrast to the broader faces of the Alpines and Neo-Danubians among whom most of them live. The head form, on the other hand, shows a partial brachycephalization which must be due to the absorption of Gentile blood….The Jews are not simply Judaized central Europeans; they are central-Europeanized Jews.
It has been remarked by some anthropologists that the Jews look “Armenoid,” and that this Armenoid appearance must be due either to Hittite admixture or to a sojourn in Asia Minor before their arrival in Europe. This remark implies a misunderstanding of Jewish history as well as of the nature of the Armenoid race. Many Ashkenazic Jews, it is true, possess the combination of a brachycephalic head with a narrow face and convex nose, but there is not enough Alpine in the Jewish body to make this Dinaricization prevalent or standard.”
“Although all of the racial types enumerated above, and, in fact, every racial type known in Europe, may be picked out of the Jewish body, most of the Jews represent a blend in one way or other of several of them, and most of them, for one reason or another, look Jewish.169 There can be no doubt that the original Mediterranean blend of Palestine is the most important. If one were to hazard a guess, one might suggest that it actually accounted for more than half of the whole;”
“…rather than the south like Armenia and Anatolia/North Levant where Armenoid tendencies are stronger.”
To Jm8, I agree which is why I brought up your point about Khazar genetics disrupting the long held assumptions on their phenotype.
Along with that, I agree with your metrics on Jews in Europe. As for Eastern europe, to My Knowlegde, It may have a significant amount of Alpine however i believe that the stocky Phenotype is closer to the Baltic type among Russians.
Alpine is more Central European, and can be traced to Neolithic and possibly prior migrations. Baltic is closer related in to Indo European Migrations, and i believe was even distinguished and centered Easternward in Gunther’s writing of racial types/philosophy.
Otherwise, Eastern Europe may also include some Med types (southernly) and Nordic types (North) so it may vary.
Coon’s analysis on Jews being principally Mediterranean and possessing “Armenoid” features independently by mixing with Brachycephalic types in Europe seems to be in line with their Affinity with Sephardic jews.
” i believe that the stocky Phenotype is closer to the Baltic type among Russians.”
Yeah, the Baltid type (or something related) is likely the one I was thinking of (it being a native broader-featured East European type with roots in pre-neolithic European natives).
“Alpine is more Central European, and can be traced to Neolithic and possibly prior migrations. Baltic is closer related in to Indo European Migrations, and i believe was even distinguished and centered Easternward in Gunther’s writing of racial types/philosophy.”
True, except that the Alpine is though to derive mostly, or strongly from the pre-neolithic paleolithic and/or mesolithic native types (the cromagnons who were also broad featured but taller and a bit minor angular than alpines), which was preserved more in the mountainous parts of Central Europe , where it became “reduced” somewhat shorter and softer featured than its paleo/mesolithic predecessor). Parts of West Europe have their equivalents and S.W Europe/Iberia—as well as sometimes in the North having some alpine ancestry—has its equivalent in the, often highland, Berid type, also somewhat similar in genesis being partly a survival of pre-neolithic native types)
“Coon’s analysis on Jews being principally Mediterranean and possessing “Armenoid” features independently by mixing with Brachycephalic types in Europe seems to be in line with their Affinity with Sephardic jews.”
Yes. I think I would largely agree (though I suspect that perhaps some, perhaps comparatively minor but I’m not sure, contributing armenoid affinity could have been brought with them from the North Levant (a bit less common or strong in the South/Central Levant) as well (where I believe some degree of it also exists).
“…the cromagnon types, who were also broader featured but taller and a bit more angular than modern alpines)”
“Baltic is closer related in to Indo European Migrations, and i believe was even distinguished and centered Easternward…”
That makes some sense as the Indo-Europeans were a mix of Eastern European hunter gatherers—from around Ukraine, where IE formed (who were related to Western and Central European Hunter gatherers) and peoples (I believe neolithic) from the Central and Northern caucasus to the south of East Europe (who were comparatively closer to mediterraneans/West Asians/North Anatolians, though distinct from them). The Baltid type is one with a strong Eastern European hunter gatherer influence, not necessarily or always IE, but related to it, and similar to types present among early IE peoples (who also came from Eastern Europe: the Yamnaya around from Ukraine, where local hunter gatherers would have been similar to those of the Baltic).
(Whereas alpine is descended (significantly at least) from Central European hunter gatherers.
“True, except that the Alpine is though to derive mostly, or strongly from the pre-neolithic paleolithic and/or mesolithic native types (the cromagnons who were also broad featured but taller and a bit minor angular than alpines), which was preserved more in the mountainous parts of Central Europe , where it became “reduced” somewhat shorter and softer featured than its paleo/mesolithic predecessor). Parts of West Europe have their equivalents and S.W Europe/Iberia—as well as sometimes in the North having some alpine ancestry—has its equivalent in the, often highland, Berid type, also somewhat similar in genesis being partly a survival of pre-neolithic native types)”
I agree with this, hence why I suggested it to be pre Neolithic, but originally it was once though to be Neolithic specific. I’m more inclined with it’s older ancestry however.
“That makes some sense as the Indo-Europeans were a mix of Eastern European hunter gatherers—from around Ukraine, where IE formed (who were related to Western and Central European Hunter gatherers) and peoples (I believe neolithic) from the Central and Northern caucasus to the south of East Europe (who were comparatively closer to mediterraneans/West Asians/North Anatolians, though distinct from them).”
Correct, basically Eastern Euro and Near Eastern Huntergatherers. This also brings up how despite metrically being said to resemble Meds cranially, Corded Ware people genetically weren’t close to Neolithic lineages much at all compared to the Western European Bell beaker Culture, who were half Euro Farmer and Half Hunter gatherer.
Maybe due to the two culture differing in specific Near East Lineages, Beaker being more Anatolian and Corded ware more Iranian as the phenotype was found to be also common in Iranians and Afghans who are linguistically connected to the migrations.
“The Baltid type is one with a strong Eastern European hunter gatherer influence, not necessarily or always IE, but related to it, and similar to types present among early IE peoples (who also came from Eastern Europe: the Yamnaya around from Ukraine, where local hunter gatherers would have been similar to those of the Baltic).
(Whereas alpine is descended (significantly at least) from Central European hunter gatherers.”
This is what I think as well.
mena being 80iq is the dumbest shit i ever heard
Explain why…
Turkey: ~90;
Levant [without israel]: ~85 [Brasil// Latin America levels];
North Africa: ~85;
Iran: ~85….
mena being smarter than europeans is the dumbest shit i ever heard
seriously
Also explain the 78 IQ of the Qatar.
i wonder why east asians do well in iq but they are always being conquered
the chinese have been shat on by basically every other civ
desert sand people arabs crushed them in first contact
mongolians conquered them
japanese conquered them
europeans conquered them
in the words of ian mugabe: sad!
What planet are you living on Fenoopy? For centuries China was the richest and most powerful nation on Earth and even today, it’s rapidly challenging the U.S. for global supremacy. Even poor uneducated isolated North Korea is a nuclear power and a major player in cyber wars.
You’re just jealous that another non-white group is doing so much better than your own people.
“What planet are you living on Fenoopy? For centuries China was the richest and most powerful nation on Earth and even today, it’s rapidly challenging the U.S. for global supremacy.”
Define “rich”. Yeah, Likely had alot of rich resources and use of it prior to the West.
A few problems.
A. In other respects, such as culture, it gained influence from the West (including their Marxist influence) prior to which they were traditional rather than industrial or post industrial. In regards to culture, that still applies in regards to overall appeal.
B. Again, as Fenoopy pointed out, they were conquered repeatedly. Your response on “wealth” proves nothing.
It shows that, despite supposed Higher genetic IQ, their historical versatility in terms of competition is limited compared to the west.
C, Even Murray pointes out their limit ingenuity compared to the West as tracked throughout the centuries.
” Even poor uneducated isolated North Korea is a nuclear power and a major player in cyber wars.”
Nuclear power? Cyber Wars? You mean their use of western innovations in competition as oppose to their legal/moral development usually associated with higher IQ?
“You’re just jealous that another non-white group is doing so much better than your own people.”
You aren’t answering his question.
Why are you counting japs and mongols not as east asians?! Hahahaha.
Ive said and openly admit, the mongols and japs are two large deviations from hbd theory that arent explained by my Masters Pets theories either. But the koreans and thais and vietnamese mostly hew to it.
Vietnam beat the usa in a war by the way not so long ago. And n korea and china knocked back the un to a draw in the korean war.
East asians mental discipline and following orders is actually very potebt in modern warfare.
i’m just talking shit, i don’t actually believe it
seriously though, why did the chinese get conquered so much
why are chinese so different from japanese
even today, although china is a tremendous power, they just behave so differently from the jewnited states of america and its imperialism
i’m just talking shit, i don’t actually believe it
That’s precisely the problem. You’re advancing your ethnic genetic interests instead of having serious substantive debates, and it’s dragging down the whole comment section. A few years ago you would have made a great contributor to the comment section, but the blog is moving in a more serious direction, so sadly you’ll have to move on, and out.
Mongolians conquered everybody. Its due to stuff like their invention of the composite bow, innovative horse warfare techniques and having tons of horses compared to others, able to consume horse milk and even horse blood if needed (which solved to some extent food supply chain problems for them during war) etc
Japanese had modern guns while chinese atleast initially didnt, same with europeans over chinese. And muslims had unity(they could rally people as diverse as arabs, turks and uzbeks to the cause of islam), mastered night warfare, pioneered communication techniques using birds which other people were not aware of initially. And the mongolians, europeans and muslims conquered other people too not just chinese using the above ways. Also i am assuming that after bushmen, pygmies (and similar people) and indians i think chinese (atleast ancient chinese) were the next most physically weaker than other people. I am talking strength and not athleticism. In ancient warfare…. physical strength also paid a role.
Fenoopy have huge insecurities about his people.
white guy: “please give me back my money”
north african: “what ? a young man like you ? you can’t go to work ?!” (slapped him on the shoulder and go away withstling)
MENA people are so immoral it’s sometimes funny.
People that evolve wuthout centralised states to weed out psychopathy are going to be like that. Most nomadic races of man like the berbers are not going to be bastions of probity.
I suppose this might explain why mongols and huns were successful with violence even though they were east asians.
I think there is more to this kind of immoral behaviour than evolving without a centralised state.
Indians had civilisation for much longer than Swedes but would you trust an Indian over a Swede ?
I previously suggested that climate might have played an important role shaping different type of personalities all around the globe.
People that had a centralised state for a long time only appear to be low t and less violent, not more trustworthy.
Testosterone doesn’t cause violence (crime) nor aggressive behavior.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/10/testosterone-and-aggressive-behavior/
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/18/why-testosterone-does-not-cause-crime/
A reanalysis that corrected these problems produced a lower mean weighted correlation (r=.08 instead of the reported r=.14).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257525063_Testosterone_and_aggression_A_reanalysis_of_Book_Starzyk_and_Quinsey's_2001_study
The study that found a .14 correlation (Book et al, 2001( http://www.academia.edu/22213818/The_relationship_between_testosterone_and_aggression_a_meta-analysis ) is cited by hereditarians to ‘show’ that testosterone causes aggressive behavior. Funny stuff.
0.08’s not that small a correlation given how much T levels fluctuate and given how hard it is to objectively measure aggression. Also, correlation’s do not have to be large to be causal.
I’m aware that correlations don’t have to be large to be causal.
I provided much more evidence than that paper. My personal favorite piece of evidence is when most crime are committed. For children it’s 9 pm, 12 pm and 3 pm when they go into school, go to lunch and leave school. Adults commit the most crime at 10 pm. T levels are lowest at night highest in the morning. For kids under 18 it tops out at 3 pm.
Why does this matter? Because T levels are highest in the morning. So if it were true that T caused crime, then you’d see more crimes being committed earlier in the day in comparison to later in the day when serum testosterone levels decrease.
Testosterone levels increase in groups, when one feels challenged, etc etc. That doesn’t mean that testosterone causes violence, which is an important distinction to make. The testosterone increase from a challenge or whatnot does not cause aggression (see Booth and Mazur’s work).
I understand that there are a lot of papers out there that presume that testosterone does cause crime, for instance Dabb’s studies on prisoners and testosterone levels. However he never showed causation, he only showed prisoners had higher T levels which makes sense due to the environment they’re in. I’d use testosterone as a ‘simple model’ that people use to show that one variable has a cause in crime. The biggest one is MAOA. That’s another misconception in this sphere.
I understand why people believe testosterone causes crime, but looking deeper into it, you see how fast it crumbles.
Worth noting that I’ve seen hereditarians use that I’ve used to show it doesn’t cause aggression or crime to say that it does. Horrible misinterpretations of those papers. Robert Lindsay and Alternative Hypothesis are the biggest offenders.
But you can trust an indian to be less likely than a swede to bash your skull into a pulp when they are angry with you. I guess you are right after all….centralised state> low t >less violence.
I think you are massively underestimating the power of Verbal IQ. Verbal IQ allows the connection of distant concepts, allowing many types of problems to be solved almost instantly without any effort, because the connection is clear.
People with lower verbal IQ are like rats running around a maze, trying lots of things, running around without a clear understanding of where everything. VIQ is like taking away the maze, and suddenly there is no problem at all.
I was born 13 pounds, i think my head circumference was exceptionally large as well. I might revisit my meassurements, to see how large my head was.
“and thus their distribution should resemble the flipping of thousands of coins, giving you either bad or good genetic (and environmental) luck:”
This sounds as if your traits are purely random. But they certainly aren’t. I’m a hunchback, my father is one and his was a huncback too. If I now had a child, it would most likely inherit my ugly _and_ paining hunchback, as well as a host of other crappy traits due to my worthless genetics (like mental illness). There are many traits that run in families, and we know that if someone who is smart has children, his will be as well — after all, eugenics developed because Galton was aware of the heritability of certain traits. Therefore, someone should have sterilized my useless father to spare me this joke of a life. At least he was the only child of his mother, and I am the only child of my father. So with my death, this useless lineage will die as well. (I studied several families of capable people even before I was aware of IQ and noticed that their parents and siblings often were capable [or attractive etc.] too. See e. g. the Wittgensteins or Kierkegaards.)
Damn bro. See a therapist. Don’t let years-old pseudoscience get to you.
It’s random whether you’ll have smart parents