On pages 54-55 of Daniel Seligman’s book A Question of Intelligence, he reveals Arthur Jensen’s little known interest in India:
In his early years, Jensen was being pulled in still another direction. While in high school, he developed an enthusiasm for Gandhi and, incredibly found time to produce a book-length manuscript about the Mahatma. Under Gandhi’s influence, he also became a vegetarian. That did not last too long, but Jensen retains an interest in Indian culture and customs–and food. When he bought a lakeside vacation home several years ago, he put in a second kitchen so he could prepare Indian dishes without getting in his wife’s way.
I asked Jensen what it was about Gandhi that had attracted him. Was it, for example, the pacifist message? “No” Jensen said, “I can’t say I was ever really a pacific.” (He expected to serve during World War II but ended up with a medical exemption). Given his determined advocacy of unpopular ideas during much of his life, the reason he gives for gravitating to Gandhi seems significant. The main reason: “Gandhi’s willingness to go wherever his convictions took him.”
From page 76:
…Arthur Jensen once told me a gripping story about a child in India who was denied a formal education because, as a low-caste “untouchable,” he was not allowed to attend the only school in his region. The child nevertheless managed to learn a lot by spending hours peering through the schoolroom windows, ultimately, figuring out what the teacher was explaining at the blackboard. He learned to read this way, which enabled him to pursue an education on his own and qualify for the University of Bombay. Eventually, he became a distinguished Indian lawyer. It is hard to believe that he would ever have made these heroic efforts to transform his environment without some genetic head start.
Seligman should have asked Jensen what he thought the heritability of IQ in India was during this period. In the U.S., the WAIS full-scale IQ correlation of identical twins reared apart is about 0.7 by adulthood, suggesting a genotype-phenotype correlation among adopted Americans is an incredible 0.84 (the square root of 0.7)
But these correlations may be spuriously high, because in America, it may not be genes directly raising your scores. It could be genes causing you to create an environment that raises your scores, so regardless of whether you were raised in a high or low social class, certain genotypes still end up attending university and joining a stimulating occupations that may prepare them for IQ tests.
But in 1930s India, when the caste system so restricted socio-economic mobility that untouchables were prohibited from even entering school, it would have been fascinating to see an IQ study of identical twins reared apart, because you’d have one person confined to a life of unclean labour, and his identical twin raised in an upper caste becoming a doctor. Only in the most extreme cases, like the anecdote Jensen cited, would an untouchable have become a professional. Thus, such a study would have given us a more meaningful measure of heritability.
When will you come clean and denounce your far right political views Pumpkin? I don’t mind asking certain questions that some might find uncomfortable about race, but to suggest intelligence is genetic, is sickening, morally evil and fraudulent.
As we all know, intelligence is completely socially constructed and in fact, the fact we care about how intelligent someone is is socially constructed, and in fact the fact that we even categorise someone as ‘intelligent’t is socially constructed and in fact the fact that we even can claim we know anything is socially constructed.
In my opinion.
People are awarded Phds in philosophy for the above.
And rightly so!
In my opinion.
My opinion is a social construction.
It’s ALSO socially constricted!! 😉
Your opinions AND intelligence/cultur.
Nothing sickening about it. Intelligence is part genetic, part environmental.
Not just intelligence, everything about us is both part genetic, part environmental. Not just one or the other.
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I was watching a tv show called judge judy where the the jewish judge has to make decisions on whether people owe money to people. So stupid!
First of all how come their are no lawyers? It doesn’t make sense someone would argue their case without legal training. This makes me think judge jewys victims are evidence of very high IQ in america as it shows people are able to argue cases by themselves by sticking to the FACTS and not walking into court unprepared.
Many of those daytime judge shows are just acting. Entertaining nonetheless.
gman is autistic.
Both argue on the same level. An lawyer would crush them, no? If not, then i would see what you are saying.
If you divide a number by 0 the calculator says its undefined. I remember my old boyfriend Terry Tao said to me after a long lovemaking session in an internet chatroom that if you divide something by zero you get a ‘mathematical paradox’. This is very deep wisdom which has helped me change my life and stop my promiscuous lifestyle.
How come the media ignores the hermaphrodite community? It should be gays, lesbians, bis, trans and hermys.
Deal? Can you back me up on this please?
“But these correlations may be spuriously high, because in America, it may not be genes directly raising your scores. It could be genes causing you to create an environment that raises your scores, so regardless of whether you were raised in a high or low social class, certain genotypes still end up attending university and joining a stimulating occupations that may prepare them for IQ tests.”
Well, I do wonder about this. Am I clever because it is genetic brain power, or am I clever because my genetic temperament leads me to be simultaneously anxious, paranoid and curious, as with the rest of my family?
Regardless, it does not change anything. Intelligence is in the genetics, and probably a combination of the above.
It changes everything. It’s like asking “am i muscular because i have genes for big muscles or am i muscular because i have genes that make me lift weights?”
The latter implies the trait is highly mutable. That’s why it matters.
Isn’t individual IQ always highly mutable? Average IQ isn’t, because populations as a whole are often subject to on average (?) the same conditions. IQ tests are without a doubt influenced by knowledge.
Well if you decided to increase your level of formal education by a massive amount, your IQ would almost certainly go up, but that may just be an artifact of the tests being culturally biased in both obvious and subtle ways towards people with more schooling
It’s like if you were taught better posture your height might be measured higher even though in reality you’re no taller
I don’t think formal education matters, because so much of that knowledge is irrelevant. The only thing that matters insofar as IQ tests are concerned, is ‘skill’ in ‘logic puzzles’. If you learn a little about logic puzzles, your IQ when tested with something like RPM can go up almost 20-30 points.
A programmer or mathematician would almost always test higher IQ than say, a philosopher.
Chess players test the highest IQs, almost always.
IQ is incredibly influenced by a person’s knowledge and experience so far as logic puzzles are concerned.
Maybe you will argue that a high IQ is necessary to be a good chess player and their IQ would test high irrespective of their chess skill. I disagree, because chess players appear to only be good at chess.
Playing chess all year is not going to do much to improve your Raven score. It won’t even much improve your chess performance if the conditions of the game are changed (i.e. different number of pieces and different number of squares on the board). According to Jensen, practicing one type of cognitive skill will make you very good at that one cognitive skill, but will have limited transfer to other cognitive skills. I think the main reason schooling improves IQ is it makes you more intellectually confident and motivated which is useful on tests like the Raven that require persistence. It also exposes you to general knowledge and vocab that helps on verbal tests.
I mean, touche, but what explains the high IQ of chess grand-masters? They’re born geniuses that just decided to master chess? Somehow, I doubt it.
Chess requires the cognitive ability to adapt situations to your advantage which is how i define intelligence. If grandmasters didn’t have high IQs I’d question the validity of IQ tests. If anything I’m surprised their IQs aren’t a lot higher.
Of course practice & study helps a lot in chess but of those who devote their lives to the game, the smartest should succeed
Great strategist on chess mean great strategist on real world???
So that Norwegian semo Lapp guy who won several contests is a great strategist on your real life??? To be a very good strategist you must need to be above average on some dimension of psychopathy or anti social personality.
I’m a great strategist on cheese contests. .
If anything i think a philosopher would do better than mathematcian/programmer on IQ tests. Better at vocab and similarities, better at logic games and logical reasonining (like you see on the LSAT), just as good probably at mental arithmetic. Most analytic philosophy is highly related to logic/language analysis.
woah, i i didnt read this post. Seems like you said the same thing. Sorry y’all for repeating.I am drunk ;-P
People often claim the harsh climate of the ice age was the cause of Germanic/White intelligence and separation from the negro. I don’t see why the same thing wouldn’t apply for Arabs in the harsh desert.
have you tried to think on a hot day? intelligent behavior could never be selected for among the arabs, because they could never behave in an intelligent way.
i’d guess the subcontinent has more genetic variation than europe or chiner.
heidegger and the german idealists rediscovered in more technical language what the indians had written about in the upanishads, etc.
The other day, I read a meta-analysis study about IQ and Elo, and they said the correlation was only 0.25/30 (very good working memory and processing speed) wich is very low. The explanation is that the best international grand masters (>2500 Elo) have to (rote) know between 100 000 and 300 000 tactics, and the winning is directly proportionate to this knowledge. As rote learning is the least correlated activity with IQ, thy even founded a negative correlation between Elo and IQ, but they corrected it by taking into account time passed practicing (wich is negatively correlated with IQ).
So I don’t know where internet sites got the >170 IQ of top chess players. I’ve articles about Kasparov and Polgar, but there was no mention of a formal assesment.
One article said the average IQ of the 4M registered players was 110. You have 200 people at 2500 that means their average level is 4.7 sd above genereral population. That would be less than a 120 average IQ. And for the top 10 players, the average would just be 130.
But as I don’t know anything about chess, it’s hard to tell. A friend of mine is best friend with Laurent Fressinet, and was at school with him when in high school, and also his friend with his russian wife (she earns the money with poker for the couple) but I haven’t met them.
I did a brief article on Kasparov’s IQ:
https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/05/30/the-iq-of-garry-kasparov/comment-page-1/
We say exactly the same sing Pumpkin ! So all the internet staff about IQ in the 160, 170, 180ies etc. are completly wrong (as the comments about the geniuses of chess). Except if you believe that having an average of 120 IQ for international grand master is a genious level !
Or, rather more precisely, I’ve realized by myself what you had already written before I did 🙂
Kasparov is half – Armenian
Makes sense. I didn’t understand how chess players could have such consistently high IQs other than IQ being based upon knowledge of tactics, but it seems it’s just misreporting and bad fact checking on my part. Kasparov is smart but unremarkable.
“His visualization ability is “extremely underdeveloped”. In the verbal parts he was “more often above than below average”. His numerical ability is “unique”. In logical thinking he’s “far ahead” of the other testees. He “failed completely” in visual creativity and was “moderate” in verbal creativity. His memory is “brilliant”.
In the Raven’s Matrices he got an IQ of 123 and in a test with mixed items by Eysenck he got an IQ of 135.”
A comment by someone else on Kasparov’s IQ.
Question: I am mixed race. Is it impossible to predict the IQ of a mixed race person? If it is possible, how would it be done?
Feenopy, for you to ask to predict your IQ given your race mix, is like asking to predict your weight given your height ! Just get your result if you want to.
My advice is however not to bother too much with your IQ. For most people, it doesn’t do them any good. Don’t let those figures neither hold you down nor inflate your ego.
I love knowing my IQ. I like to tell everyone my score, even though they look at me like an autistic weirdo
It’s because you’re happy about it Gondwa !
If you more than 3 sd above your race, it’s difficult to ask more. It’s like when you’r 6 feet 7 inches. You can’t feel short, even in in the NBA you’re at least average.
That must be weird to tell people an IQ score. If France people doesn’t “believe” in IQ, so you would have to give them a class about what is IQ, and then they would be very bored, supposing they would accept listening to you. The only way to look smart is by graduating from a top french school. They don’t believe in the foreign one, even HPY … And prestige firm, money etc. , it is no proof for the french. Only the schooling do the job.
That’s why stupid guy like Macron have such an aura whatever he says with journalist . He is from the top school in France. You could lose prestige only if you have extreme right wing opinions. Then, you are considered crazy if you come from that school or a traitor (like Le Pen helper Philippot).
I was being facetious…somewhat. I only mention my IQ when someone else brings up the concept of IQ testing. Bringing it up randomly seems awkward and creepy, especially considering the taboo nature of the topic in the US, and given the fact that also here in the US most don’t understand the concept of IQ. A lot of people think it’s something you can take online or can be found in a puzzle book in the store.
US is not much different than France. Most people would be more impressed by a degree from an Ivy League school, or a prestigious job, than knowing your IQ is 180 or whatever. Perhaps partly because those qualifications are also forms of social proof.
I don’t believe in IQ, but I love it and I love the statistics and the predictions that can be made. I like the correlation.
If instead ot mensa concept, they had been a group of people asking for 3000 $ to pass a test, giving 150 K to the 1 in 100 to attract sufficiant people. Then you select 1 in 100 among them to be a member and open a club, say in New York, with a 150K /year allowance for life. And then select 1 in 10 for working in the test conception of 1.5M a year.
It would have need 50 000 candidates each year to work smoothly, it would have worked smoothly. Each year 500 got a nice endowment, 5 get a revenue for life and every other year, 1 join a team of 20 to work on the test.
You’ll got an association of 200 people freed from material pbs with english like clubs, and 20 dedicated to psychometrics. That would have been the coolest association on earth.
Oh wait, then they would have begin to fight, do litigation all over the place, and the association would have been splited and destroyed -:)
This is so natural for a serious seeker of truth of any kind to be at least interested in Indian philosophy and it’s practical applications . Sri sri gurubhyo namo namah!
Years ago I read the original article from Der Spiegel( with google translator). It did not make that much sense . Seems like they gave him something questionable from the Eyesenck s ‘Know your IQ’ book, and the test was just directly translated into Russian . .The raw APM score wasn/t reported.