[Note from PP, March 19, 2017: The following article is written by commenter Race Realist and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of Pumpkin Person. In fact contrary to my opinion, and the conventional wisdom, that humans are the geeks of the animal kingdom, RR argues that we are a species of jocks. Out of respect for our guest blogger, please make an effort to keep all comments on topic. If discussions naturally evolve in other directions, that’s understandable, but please start by addressing the topic at hand. Race Realist is an Italian American personal trainer]
Homo nerdicus or Homo athleticus? Which name more aptly describes Man? Without many important adaptations incurred throughout our evolutionary history, modern Man as you see him wouldn’t be here today. The most important factor in this being our morphology and anatomy which evolved due to our endurance running, hunting, and scavenging. The topics I will cover today are 1) morphological differences between hominin species and chimpanzees; 2) how Man became athletic and bring up criticisms with the model; 3) the evolution of our aerobic physical ability and brain size; 4) an evolutionary basis for sports; and 5) the role of children’s playing in the evolution of human athleticism.
Morphological differences between Man and Chimp
Substantial evolution in the lineage of Man has occurred since we have split from the last common ancestor (LCA) with chimpanzees between 12.1 and 5.3 mya (Moorjani et al, 2016; Patterson et al, 2006). One of the most immediate differences that jump out at you when watching a human and chimpanzee is such stark differences in morphology, in particular, how we walk (pelvic differences) as well as our arm length relative to our torsos. Though we both evolved to be proficient at abilities that had us become evolutionarily successful in the environments we found ourselves in, one species of primate went on to become the apes the took over the world whereas the chimps continued life as the LCA did (as far as we can tell). The evolution of our athleticism is why we have a lean body with the right morphology for endurance running and associated movements. In fact, the evolution of our brain size hinged on a reduction in our fat depots (Navarette, Schaik, and Isler, 2011).
One of the largest differences you can see between the two species is how we walk. Chimps are “specially adapted for supporting weight on the dorsal aspects of middle phalanges of flexed hand digits II–V” (Tuttle, 1967). Meanwhile, humans are specifically adapted for bipedality due to the change in our pelvis over the course of our evolution (Gruss and Schmitt, 2015). Due to staying more arboreal than venturing on the ground, chimp morphology over the course of the divergence became more and more adapted to life in the trees.
Our modern gait is associated with physiologic and anatomic adaptations throughout our evolution, and are not ‘primitive retentions’ from the LCA (Schmitt, 2003). There are very crucial selective pressures that need to be looked at to see which selection pressures caused us to become athletes. Parts of Austripolithicenes still live on in us today, most notably in our lower leg/foot (Prang, 2015). Further, our ancestor, the famous Lucy had the beginnings of a modern pelvis, which was the beginning of the shift to the more energetically efficient bipedality, one thing that fully separates Man from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Of course, no conversation about human evolution would be complete without talking about Erectus. Analysis of 1.5 million-year-old footprints shows that Erectus was the first to have a humanlike weight transfer while walking, confirming “the presence of an energy-saving longitudinally arched foot in H. Erectus.” (Hatala et al, 2016). We have not yet discovered a full Homo erectus foot, but 1.5 million-year-old footprints found in Kenya show that whatever hominin made those prints had a long, striding gait with a full arch (Steudel-Numbers, 2006; Bennett et al, 2009). The same estimates from Steudel-Numbers (2006) show that Erectus nearly halved its travel costs compared to australopithecines. This is due to a longer stride which was much more Manlike than apelike due to a humanlike pelvis and gluteus maximus (Lieberman et al, 2006).
However, the most important adaptations that Erectus evolved was the ability to keep cool while walking long distances. Loss of hair loss specifically allowed individuals to be active in hot climates without overheating. Our ancestors’ hair loss facilitated sweating (Ruxton and Wilkinson, 2011b), which allowed us to become the proficient hunters—the athletes—that we would become. There is also thermoregulatory evidence that endurance running may have been possible for Homo erectus, but not any other earlier hominin (Ruxton and Wilkinson, 2011a) which was the beginnings of our selection to become athletes. The evidence reviewed in Ruxton and Wilkinson (2011a) shows that once hair loss and sweating ability reached human levels, thermoregulation was then possible under the midday sun.
Moreover, our modern gait and bipedalism is 75 percent less costly than quadrupedal/bipedal walking in chimpanzees (Sockel, Raichlen, and Pontzer, 2007), so this extra energy that was conserved with our physiologic and anatomic adaptations due to bipedalism could have gone towards other pertinent metabolic functions—like fueling a bigger brain (more energy could be used to feed more neurons).
Born to run
Before getting into how we are able to run so efficiently, I need to talk about what made it possible for us to be able to have the energy to sustain our distance running. That one thing is eating cooked food (meat). This one seemingly simple thing is the ‘prime mover’ so to speak, of our success as athletes. Eating cooked food significantly increases the amount of energy obtained during digestion. That we could extract more energy out of cooked food—no matter what type of food it was—can not be overstated. This is what gave us the energy to hunt and scavenge. We are, of course, able to hunt/scavenge while fasted, which is an extremely useful evolutionary adaptation which increases important hormones to have us search for food. The hormones released during a fasted state aid in human physiologic/metabolic functioning allowing one who is searching for food more heightened sensibilities.
We are evolutionarily adapted to be endurance runners. Endurance running is defined as the ability to run more than 5 km using aerobic metabolism (Lieberman and Bramble, 2007). Since we are poor sprinters, the idea is that our body has evolved for walking. However, numerous anatomical changes in our phenotypes in comparison to our chimp ancestors have left us some clues. In the previous section, I talked about physical changes that occurred after Man and Chimp diverged, well those evolutionary changes are why we evolved to be athletic.
Endurance running first evolved, most likely due to scavenging and hunting (Lieberman et al, 2009). Through natural selection—survival of the ‘good enough’, those who had better physiologic and anatomic adaptations could reach the animal carcass before other scavengers like vultures and hyenas could get to it. Over time, this substantially changed how we would look. Numerous physiologic changes in our lineage attest to the evolution of our endurance running. The nuchal ligament, as well as the radius of the semicircular canal is larger in Homo sapiens than in chimpanzees or australopithecines. This stabilizes our head while running—something that our ancestors could not do because they didn’t have a canal our size (Bramble and Lieberman, 2004).
Skeletal evidence that points to our evolution as athletes consists of (but not limited to):
- The Nuchal ligament—stabilizes the head
- Shoulder and head stabilization
- Limb length and mass (we have legs longer than our torsos which decreases energy used)
- Joint surface (we can absorb more shock when our feet hit the ground due to a larger surface area)
- Plantar arch (generates spring for running but not walking)
- Calcaneal tuber and Achilles tendon (shorter tuber length leads to a longer Achilles heel stretch, converting more kinetic energy into elastic energy)
So people who had anatomy closer to this in our evolutionary past had more of a success of getting to that animal carcass, divvying it amongst his family/tribe, ensuring the passage of his genes to the next generation. Man had to be athletic in order to be able to run for long distances. Where this would have come in handy the most would have been the Savanna in our ancestral past. Man could now use persistence hunting—chasing animals in the heat of the day—and kill them when they tired out. The evolutionary adaptation sweating due to the loss of our fur is the only reason this is possible.
One of the most important adaptations for endurance running is thermoregulation. All humans are adapted for long range locomotion rather than speed and to dump rather than retain heat (Lieberman, 2015). This is one of the most important adaptations we evolved that had us become successful endurance runners. We could chase down prey and wait for our prey to become exhausted/overheat and then we would move in for the kill. Of course, intelligence and sociality come into play as we needed to create hunting bands, but without our superior endurance running capabilities—that no other animal in the animal kingdom has—we would have gone down a completely different evolutionary path than the one we went down. Our genome has evolved to support endurance running (Mattson, 2012).
Further evidence that we evolved to be athletic is in our hands. When you think about our hands and how we can manipulate our environments with them—what sets us apart from every other species—then, obviously, in our evolutionary past, those who were more successful would have had a higher chance of reproducing. Aggressive clubbing and throwing are thought to be one of the earliest hominin specializations. If true, then those who could club and throw best would have the best chance of passing their genes to the next generation, thusly selecting for more efficient hands (Young, 2003). While we may have evolved more efficient hands over time warring with other hominins, some are more prone to disk herniation.
Plomp et al (2015) propose the ‘ancestral shape hypothesis’ which is derived from studying bipedalism. They propose that those who are more prone to disk herniation preferentially affects those who have vertebrae “towards the ancestral end of the range of shape variation within H. sapiens and therefore are less well adapted for bipedalism” (Plomp et al, 2015). One of the most amazing things they discovered was that humans with signs of intervertebral disc herniation are “indistinguishable from those of chimpanzees.” Of course, due to this, we should then look towards evolutionary biology in regards to a lot of human ailments (which I have also argued here on dietary evolutionary mismatches as well as on obesity).
Of course there are some naysayers arguing that endurance running didn’t drive our evolution. He wrongly states that it’s about what drove the evolution of our bipedalism; however, what the endurance running hypothesis argues is that there are certain physiologic and anatomic changes that only could have occurred from endurance running. Better endurance runners got selected for over time, leading to novel adaptations that stayed in the gene pool and got selected for. One thing is a larger gluteus maximus. A humanlike pelvis is found in the fossil record as far back as 1.9 mya in Erectus (Lieberman et al, 2006). Furthermore, longer toes had a larger mechanical cost, and were thusly selected against, which also helped in the evolution of our endurance running (Rolian et al, 2009). All in all, there are too many adaptations that our bodies have that can only be explained by adapting to endurance running. Just because we may have gotten to the weaker animals sometimes doesn’t falsify the hypothesis; Man still needed to sweat and persist in the hot mid-day temperatures chasing prey.
Brain size and aerobic physical capacity
When speaking about the increase in our brain size/neuronal count, fire/cooking, the social brain hypothesis, and other theories are brought up first. Erectus had a lot of humanlike qualities, including the ability to control/use fire (Berna et al, 2012), and the appearance of our modern gait/stride which first appeared in Erectus (Steudel-Numbers, 2006; Bennet et al, 2009). This huge change also occurred around the time our lineage began cooking meat/using fire. Without the increased energy from cooking, we wouldn’t be able to hunt for too long. However, we do have very important specific adaptations during a fasted state—the release of hormones such as catecholamines (adrenaline and noradrenaline) which have as react faster to predators/possible prey. Though, a plant-based diet wouldn’t cut it in regards to our daily energy requirements to feed our huge brain with a huge neuronal count (Fonseca-Azevedo and Herculano-Houzel, 2012). Cooked meat is the only way we’d be able to have enough energy required to hunt game.
What kind of an effect did it have on our cranial capacity/evolution?
Four groups of mice selectively bred for high amounts of “voluntary wheel-running”, ran 3 times further than the controls which increased Vo2 max in the mice. Those mice had higher levels of BDNF (Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor) several days after the experiment concluded as well as also showing greater cell creation in the hippocampus when allowed to run compared to the controls. In two lines of selected mice, the hormone VEGF (Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor) which was correlated with higher muscle capillary density compared to controls. This shows that the evolution of endurance running in mice leads to important hormonal changes which then affected brain growth (Raichlen and Polk, 2012).
The amount of oxygen our brains use increased by 600 percent compared to 350 percent for our brain size over the course of our evolutionary history. This is important. What would cause an increase in oxygen consumption to the brain? Endurance running. There was further selection in our skeleton for endurance running in our morphology such as the semicircular canal radii. The first humanlike semicircular canal radii were found in Erectus (Spoor, Wood, and Zonneveid, 1994). This meant that we had the ability for running and other agile behaviors which were then selected for. There is also little to no activation of the gluteus medius while walking (Lee et al, 2014), implying that it evolved for more efficient endurance running.
Controlling for body mass in humans, extinct hominins and great apes, Raichlen and Polk (2012) found significant positive correlations with encephalization quotient and hindlimb length (0.93), anterior and posterior radii (0.77 and 0.66 respectively), which support the idea that human athletic ability is tied to neurobiological evolution. A man that was a better athlete compared to another would have a better chance to pass on his genes, as physical fitness is a good predictor of biological fitness. Putting this all together, selection improved our aerobic capacity over our evolutionary history by specifically altering signaling systems responsible for metabolism and oxygen intake (BDNF, VEGF, and IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor 1), responsible for the regulation of growth hormone), which are important for blood flow, increased muscle capillary density, and a larger brain.
Putting this all together, selection improved our aerobic capacity over our evolutionary history by specifically altering signaling systems responsible for metabolism and oxygen intake (BDNF, VEGF, IGF-1). More evidence is needed to corroborate Raichlen and Polk’s (2012) hypothesis. However, with what we know about aerobic capacity and the hormones that drive it and brain size, we can make inferences based on the available data and say, with confidence, that part of our brain evolution was driven by our increased aerobic capacity/morphology, with the catalyst being endurance running. Though with our increased proclivity for athleticism and endurance running, when we became ‘us’, this just shifted the competition and athletic competition—which, hundreds of thousands/millions of years ago would mean life or death, mate or no mate, food or no food.
Clearly, without the evolution of our bipedalism/athleticism we wouldn’t have evolved the brains we have and thus we would be something completely different today.
Sport and evolutionary history
We crowd into arenas to watch people compete against each other in athletic competition. Why? What are the evolutionary reasons behind this? One view is that sport (and along with it playing) was a way for men to get practice hunting game, with playing also affecting children’s ability to assess the strength of others (Lombardo, 2012).
In an evolutionary context, sports developed as a way for men to further develop skills in order to better provide for his family, as well as assessing other men’s physical strength so he can adapt his fighting to how his opponent fights in a possible future situation. Men would then be selected for these advantageous traits. You see people crowd into arenas to watch their favorite sports teams. We are ‘wired’ to like these types of competitions, which then leads to more competition. Since we evolved to be athletes, then it would stand to reason that we would like to watch others be athletic (and hit each other as hard as they can), as a type of modern-day gladiator games.
Better hunters have better reproductive success (Smith, 2004). Further, hunter-gatherer men with lower-pitched voices have more children, while men with higher-pitched voices had higher child mortality rate (Apicella, Feinberg, and Marlowe, 2007). This signals that the H-G men with more children have higher testosterone than others, which then attracts more women to them. Champion athletes, hunters, and warriors all obtain high reproductive success. Women are sexually attracted to certain traits, which events of human athleticism show. However, men follow sports more closely than women (Lombardo, 2012), and for good reason.
Men may watch sports more than women since, in an evolutionary context, they may learn more about potential allies and who to steer clear from because they would get physically dominated. Further, men could watch the actions of others at play and mimic their actions in an attempt to gain higher status with women. Another reason is a man’s character: you can see a man’s character during sports competition and by watching one’s actions closely during, for instance, playing, you can better ascertain their motivations during life or death situations. Men may also derive thrills from watching “idealized men” perform athletic activities. These are consistent with Lombardo’s (2012) male lek hypothesis, “where male physical prowess and the behaviors important in conflict and cooperation are displayed by athletes and evaluated primarily by male, not female, spectators.”
Testosterone changes based on whether one’s favorite sports team wins or loses (Bernhardt et al, 1998). This is important. Testosterone does change under stressful/group situations. Testosterone is also argued to have a role in the search for, and maintenance of social status (Eisenegger, Haushofer, and Fehr, 2011). Testosterone responses to competition in men are also related to facial masculinity (Pound, Penton-Voak, and Surrin, 2009). Male’s physical strength is also signaled through facial characteristics of dominance and masculinity, considered attractive to women (Fink, Neave, and Seydel, 2007). Since testosterone fuels both competition, protectiveness and confidence (Eisenegger et al, 2016), a woman would be attracted to a man’s athleticism/strength, which would then be correlated with his facial structure further signaling biological fitness to possible mates. Testosterone doesn’t cause prostate cancer, as is commonly stated (Stattin et al, 2003; Michaud, Billups, and Partin, 2015). Testosterone is a beneficial hormone; you should be worried way more about low T than high T.
Since testosterone is correlated with the above traits, and since athletes have higher testosterone than non-athletes (Wood and Stanton, 2011) then certain types of males would be left in the dust. Athleticism can be looked at as a way to expend excess energy. Those with more excess energy would be more sexually attractive to women and mating opportunities would increase. This is why it’s ridiculous to believe that we evolved to be the ‘nerds’ of the animal kingdom when so much of our evolutionary success has hinged on our athleticism and superior endurance running and other athletic capabilities.
Playing
Child’s play is how children feel out the world in a ‘setting’ in which there are no real-world consequences so they can get a feel for how the world really is. Human babes are born helpless, yet with large heads. Natural selection has lead to large brains to care for children, causing earlier childbirths and making children more helpless, which selected for higher intelligence causing a feedback loop (Piantadosi and Kidd, 2016). They show that across the primate genera, the helplessness of an infant is an extremely strong predictor of adult intelligence.
Indeed, a lot of the crucial shaping of our intelligence and motor capabilities are developed in our infancy and early childhood, which we have over chimpanzees. Blaisdell (2015) defines play as: “an activity that is purposeless in that it tends to be detached from the outcome, is imperfect from the goal-directed form of the activity, and that tends to occur when the individual is in a non-stressed state.” Playing is just a carefree activity that children do to get a feel for the world around them. During this time, skills are honed that, in our ancestral past, allowed us to survive and prosper during times of need (persistence hunting, scavenging, etc).
Anthropological evidence also suggests that the existence of extended childhood in humans adapted to establish the skills and knowledge needed to be a proficient hunter-gatherer. Since there are no real-world outcomes to playing (other than increased/decreased pride), a child can get some physical experience without suffering the real life repercussions of failing. Studies of hunter-gatherers show that play fosters the skills needed to be proficient in tool-making and tool-use, food provisioning, shelter, and predator defense. Play time also hones athletic ability and the brain-body connection so one can be prepared for a stressful situation. In fact, children’s fascination with ‘why’ questions make them ‘little philosophers’, which is an evolutionary adaptation to prepare for possible future outcomes.
Think of play fighting. While play fighting, the outcome has no important real life applications (well, the loser’s pride is hit) and what is occurring is the honing of skills that are useful to survival. During our ancestral evolution, play fighting between brothers could have honed the skills needed during a life our death situation when another band of humans was encountered. As you begin to associate certain movements with certain events, you then become better prepared subconsciously for when novel situations occur. The advantage of an extended childhood with large amounts of play time allow the brain and body to make certain connections between things and when these situations arise during a life or death situation, the brain-body will already have the muscle memory to handle the situation.
Conclusion
Studying our evolution since the divergence between Man and chimp, we can see the types of adaptations that we have incurred over our evolutionary history that have lead to us being specifically adapted for long-term endurance running. The ability to sweat, which, as far as we know began with Erectus, was paramount in our history for thermoregulation. Looking at the evolution of our pelvis, toes, gluteal muscles, heads, shoulders, brains, etc all will point to how they are adapted to a bipedal ape that is born to run—born to be an athlete. Without our athleticism, our intelligence wouldn’t be possible. We have a brain-body connection, our brain isn’t the only thing that drives our body, the two work in concert giving each other information, reacting to familiar and novel stimuli. That’s for another time though.
We didn’t evolve to be Homo nerdicus, we evolved to be Homo athleticus. This can be seen with how exercise has such a huge impact on cognition. We can further see the relationship between our athletic ability and our cognition/brain size. Without the way our evolution happened, Man—along with everything else you see around you—would not be here today. In a survival situation—one in which society completely breaks down—one who has better control over his body and motor functions/capabilities will outlast those who do not. Ultimate and conscious control over our bodies, reacting to stimuli in the environment is fostered in our infancy during our play time with others. Playing allows an individual to get experience in a simulated event, getting important muscle memory to react to future situations. The brain itself, of course, is being molded during playing as well. This just attests to the large part that playing has on cognition, survival skills and athletic ability over our evolutionary history.
Aerobic capacity throughout our evolutionary history beginning with Erectus was paramount for what we have become today. Without the evolution of certain muscles like our gluteus maximus along with certain appendages that gave us the ability to trek/run long distances, we would have lost a very important variable in our brain evolution. Aerobic activity increases blood flow to the brain and so the more successful endurance runners/hunters would increase their biological fitness (as seen in Smith, 2004) and thusly those who were more athletically successful would have more children, increasing selection for important traits for endurance running/athleticism throughout our evolutionary history.
We still play sports today since we love competition. Testosterone fuels the need for competition and sports is the best way to engage in competition in the modern day. Women are much more attracted to men with higher levels of testosterone which in turn means a more masculinized face which signals dominance and testosterone levels during competition. Women are attracted to men with higher levels of testosterone and a more masculinized face. This just so happens to mirror athletes, who have both of these traits. However, being in top physical condition is not enough; an athlete must also have a strong mental background if, for instance, they wish to break world records (Lippi, Favaloro, and Guidi, 2008).
The evolution of human playing ties this together. These sports competitions that we have made hearken back to our evolutionary past and show who would have fared best in the past. When we play, we are feeling our competition and who we can possibly make allies with/watch out for due to their actions during playing. One would also see who he would likely need to avoid and form an alliance with as to not get on his bad side and prevent a loss of status in his band. This is what it really comes down to—loss of status. Higher-status men do have higher levels of testosterone, and by one losing to a more capable person, they show that they aren’t fit to lead and they fall in the social hierarchy.
To fully understand human evolution and how we became ‘us’ we need to understand the evolution of our morphology and how it pertains to things such as our cognition and overall brain size and what advantages/disadvantages it afforded us. Whatever the case may be, it’s clear that we have evolved to be athletic and any change in that makeup will lead to a decrease in quality of life.
Homo athleticus, not Homo nerdicus, best describes Man.
Pumpkin Person 
Yay ! I’m at some boring dinner right now and I’m drinking but I had some previews and this post is fire.
you’re on fire as usual afro. you’re flaming.
haven’t read the above or comments and won’t.
what does RR say about the change in diet from ape to man?
is red meat bad or is it just industrial red meat that’s bad? or is it just domesticated animals’ red meat that’s bad?
as a Cynic i want to know.
chimps do eat a little meat, but they have much larger intestines than humans. this is the result of man the hunter. neanderthals ate less veg than eskimos. right?
my theory is vegetables with the possible exception of potatoes should be 85% of the mass of the perfect diet. low calorie density, lots of nutrients.
a salad where 90% of the calories are from the dressing is still better than hamburger.
Lol, I was tipsy yesterday night, I’m sober now.
RR only talks about cooking as far as nutrition is concerned. I have not read the whole comments section though. I never do.
“what does RR say about the change in diet from ape to man?”
Fire made us human.
“is red meat bad or is it just industrial red meat that’s bad? or is it just domesticated animals’ red meat that’s bad?”
Food that’s as close to natural as possible is best. It’s really ‘cooking red meat over charcoal’ that’s ‘bad’. Even then, the increase in prostate cancer is small, like 5-6 percent. Whoa. I’ll keep eating my red meat.
“chimps do eat a little meat, but they have much larger intestines than humans. this is the result of man the hunter. neanderthals ate less veg than eskimos. right?”
They ate vegetables.
http://news.mit.edu/2014/did-neanderthals-eat-their-vegetables-0625
More than Eskimos? No idea.
“my theory is vegetables with the possible exception of potatoes should be 85% of the mass of the perfect diet. low calorie density, lots of nutrients.”
Try that out for a year and get back to me.
RR and Mugabe, do you guys avoid some foods because rumor has it that they give cancer ?
I never care about cancer risk. Like, I don’t smoke but it’s not because I’m afraid of cancer, it’s because it stinks and destroys teeth. But honestly, tobacco apart, foods-cancer links often sound like hoaxes.
“RR and Mugabe, do you guys avoid some foods because rumor has it that they give cancer ?”
I have a very specific diet. I don’t think about what I eat. Less brain power/time wasted on trivial things. I take fish oil/multi vit/green tea extract/calcium/ginseng/garlic extract/vitamin D. I don’t think about cooking/eating. It’s one less thing I have to worry about.
“I never care about cancer risk. Like, I don’t smoke but it’s not because I’m afraid of cancer, it’s because it stinks and destroys teeth. But honestly, tobacco apart, foods-cancer links often sound like hoaxes.”
I mean, honestly, cancer is very complex. It’s correlated with so much and we can’t untangle causation from correlation.
Foods don’t cause cancer? Sorry, ‘foods’.
Processed carbs. ‘Nuff said.
Low-carb diets decrease cancer rates:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/
Eating a more ancestral diet would benefit everyone and reverse the obesity epidemic.
I love this post, Race Realist. I’ve always wanted to learn more about human evolution and athleticism, especially after reading “the Sports Gene”. I didn’t know endurance running was so central in the growth of our brains, but it makes so much sense that it was. Great stuff!
By the way Pumpkin, [heeded & appreciated correction redacted by PP, March 19, 2017]
Thanks.
Bipedalism/endurance running made our big brains possible. Without bipedalism, we wouldn’t be able to manipulate the environment like we do. There are clear changes between us and our ancestors that can only be explained by endurance running.
I didn’t read, sorry
Is it because hes racist?
“Out of respect for our guest blogger, please make an effort to keep all comments on topic.”
“I didn’t read, sorry”
….c’mon pumpkin.
Excellent.
“This is why it’s ridiculous to believe that we evolved to be the ‘nerds’ of the animal kingdom when so much of our evolutionary success has hinged on our athleticism and superior endurance running and other athletic capabilities.”
Well if you consider athleticism as pure endurance and hand eye coordination, then sure. Chimps have much less body fat than us and are about 1.5 times stronger. In that sense chimps are more athletic. In your defense we have higher testosterone levels.
http://anthropogeny.com/Androgens%20in%20Human%20Evolution.htm
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/06/why_youre_fat_compared_to_a_chimpanzee.html
This whole “Nerd vs Jock” conflict is nonsensical. That spectrum is only partially visible within our own species and it would be foolish to try and apply that even metaphorically in a universal way. Both our athletic and mental ability increased through evolution and I doubt the correlations are perfect in any particular direction. Intelligence and athleticism are sexually co- selected traits, you are definitely correct about this, but what about the sneaky males?
For example whites and asians are arguably less athletic than africans and have less progressive traits yet the former’s intelligence exceeds the latter. Bipedalism is like cooking, it alleviates some of the restrictions on further encephalization, but isn’t necessary for brain growth, and isn’t a “hard” selection pressure. This is one of the reasons I’ve suggested a hyper intelligent alien species could look like Octopuses.
“Man still needed to sweat and persist in the hot mid-day temperatures chasing prey.”
Indeed, but I’d speculate that losing such a huge amount of your bodies natural fluids could induce dehydration, making it very impractical for such hot temperatures, unless there were constant water sources. Maybe the reason we’re hairless is to substitute social grooming when larger group sizes made it impossible to bond by only cleaning eachother. Like pigs or something.
Well if you consider athleticism as pure endurance and hand eye coordination, then sure. Chimps have much less body fat than us and are about 1.5 times stronger. In that sense chimps are more athletic.
yeah, and chimps kick the living shit out of humans, but John Hawks states: A chimp on four legs can easily outrun a world-class human sprinter. Humans are better marathon runners but that’s kind of nerdy sport anyway.
But RR does make an important point in that big brains were not enough to make humans the dominant animal; we arguably also needed a specific kind of athletic talent.
“But RR does make an important point in that big brains were not enough to make humans the dominant animal; we arguably also needed a specific kind of athletic talent.”
What use is a big brain if you can’t do anything with it? Bipedalism frees the hands.
Yes but it’s awkward calling bipedalism itself an athletic talent. More of an alternative form of walking
“A chimp on four legs can easily outrun a world-class human sprinter. Humans are better marathon runners but that’s kind of nerdy sport anyway.”
True. But we would kill a chimp in a marathon. Our adaptations such as thermoregulation is one major thing that sets us apart. It’s, arguably why we had the ability to become so intelligent.
People do what they’re wired for. Marathon running takes type 1 fibers (that go off oxygen) while type 2 fibers (for sprinting) go off anaerobically—absent of oxygen. This is why blacks are better at explosive sports (and also why they have higher rates of metabolic diseases, which I will argue on substantially in the future. There is much more to HBD than IQ differences. These differences are much more interesting, in my opinion.).
“But RR does make an important point in that big brains were not enough to make humans the dominant animal; we arguably also needed a specific kind of athletic talent.”
Correct. Imagine us with our current morphology except we were sloth-like. How would we have turned out? Would we still have the same achievements? Just because we aren’t good sprinters doesn’t mean we aren’t good overall athletes compared to the rest of the Animal Kingdom. We have specific adaptations that they don’t have, most importantly being our bipedalism and use of our hands.
“What use is a big brain if you can’t do anything with it? Bipedalism frees the hands.”
Bipedalism is the predecessor to both tool-use and endurance running (obviously). I have a small part on our hands in my article.
We can throw. Very well. Better than Neanderthals and chimps.
Our brains are useless without our specific morphology. Our bodies make what we do possible.
Our brains are useless without our specific morphology. Our bodies make what we do possible.
No one disputes that our brains are useless without our bodies. That’s true of all animals. The more interesting question is “are our bodies useless without relatively high intelligence?”
“The more interesting question is “are our bodies useless without relatively high intelligence?””
Yes. We have a brain-body connection that co-evolved together. When talking about our intelligence, you need to talk about our body and when talking about the body you need to talk about our intelligence. Each make the other possible.
“The more interesting question is “are our bodies useless without relatively high intelligence?”
That is an interesting question.
i would assume no, but that all hinges on whether homo erectus had an almost completely modern body or not. Homo erectus could have been perfectly built for persistence hunting and endurance running but their brains were obviously less complex than ours.
i would assume no, but that all hinges on whether homo erectus had an almost completely modern body or not. Homo erectus could have been perfectly built for persistence hunting and endurance running but their brains were obviously less complex than ours.
Erectus was dumb compared to humans but a super genius compared to non-homo animals
“Erectus was dumb compared to humans but a super genius compared to non-homo animals”
‘Cept there is tons of evidence to the contrary showing all that Erectus did (Erectus having the beginnings of many behaviors ultra important to us as I have documented the last three months). So not too dumb.
“Erectus was dumb compared to humans but a super genius compared to non-homo animals”
How much smarter though? Were homo erectus smarter than dolphins? Probably.
“Indeed, but I’d speculate that losing such a huge amount of your bodies natural fluids could induce dehydration, making it very impractical for such hot temperatures, unless there were constant water sources.”
Well regardless it does occur with people in hot climates like deserts with fewer water resources, though in hominid times these areas would’ve been much more lush otherwise they would’ve been uninhabited until the neolithic it pastoralism’s advantages.
https://books.google.com/books?id=lZaUK4pmd9oC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=sweat+glands+of+people+that+live+in+deserts&source=bl&ots=F3svcEZZcZ&sig=me02dvWW0XdA2OvB1mj4OaYvzUg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqp6_k4uPSAhUNyWMKHfO4DT8Q6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q=sweat%20glands%20of%20people%20that%20live%20in%20deserts&f=false
“Maybe the reason we’re hairless is to substitute social grooming when larger group sizes made it impossible to bond by only cleaning eachother. Like pigs or something.”
That almost works with pigs being group hunters as well as intelligent omnivores like humans, but pigs in the wild have notable fur and only domesticated pigs are that bald to my knowledge.
Even then, once domesticated pigs go back into a while they pretty much revert to their original boar-like appearance aside some from snout and tusk differences that won’t disappear until their offspring are born.
For now I think the heat-adaptation works best.
“though in hominid times these areas would’ve been much more lush otherwise they would’ve been uninhabited until the neolithic it pastoralism’s advantages.”
i think a lot of homo erectus’ prints have been found near lakes.
“domesticated pigs are that bald to my knowledge.”
That’s what I mean, in populations with high density hairlessness evolves as way of parasite control, especially if cooperative grooming is not an option.
“For now I think the heat-adaptation works best.”
Well overheating is a more immediate threat than dehydration so maybe that’s why it’s not as much of an issue. I think you can survive 3 days without water.
“i think a lot of homo erectus’ prints have been found near lakes.”
Cited in my article:
Click to access 10.1016%40j.jhevol.2006.05.001.pdf
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/323/5918/1197.full
They’re from 1.5 mya.
“That’s what I mean, in populations with high density hairlessness evolves as way of parasite control, especially if cooperative grooming is not an option.”
Fur hinders cooling from sweating by moving the location of the water further from the body’s surface and reduces air convection at the skin’s surface which limits rates of evaporation where sweating has the highest cooling potential. Sweating was obviously advantageous to Erectus which allowed him to hunt and scavange which was selected for. That’s why we’re furless.
“Well overheating is a more immediate threat than dehydration so maybe that’s why it’s not as much of an issue. I think you can survive 3 days without water.”
Yea, generally it’s three days. Thermoregulation is the best explanation for sweating/fur loss.
“i think a lot of homo erectus’ prints have been found near lakes.”
To me that says the lived in a savannah at the driest, I’m not that well versed in geography but I doubt deserts would support bodies of water larger than oasis can typically hold, that amount unlikely to support large bodied creatures like hominids long enough to be a resting spot.
“That’s what I mean, in populations with high density hairlessness evolves as way of parasite control, especially if cooperative grooming is not an option.”
Ah, now I see. Are you aware of Habilis populations being significantly lower to than Erectus or Erectus compared to Chimps?
“Well overheating is a more immediate threat than dehydration so maybe that’s why it’s not as much of an issue. I think you can survive 3 days without water.”
We then need to consider Erectus’ standards with surviving without water being potentially longer.
Race realist
“That’s why we’re furless.”
How do they tell from fossils whether an animal has fur or not?
Still does not explain why we have hair on the most important spot on our bodies Especially since being tall would make the sun beat down on the top of our skulls all day. Even where humans do have visible hair it is actually more dense than chimpanzee hair. As wiki says:
“the average human has more hair follicles on his or her body than the average chimpanzee. The main distinction is that human hairs are shorter, finer, and less heavily pigmented than the average chimpanzee’s, thus making them harder to see. Humans have about 2 million sweat glands spread over their entire bodies, many more than chimpanzees”
It seems sweating is a result of endurance running but not necessarily furlessness. Hell even the advent of fire could have caused a pressure for less hair.
Phil
“To me that says the lived in a savannah at the driest, I’m not that well versed in geography but I doubt deserts would support bodies of water larger than oasis can typically hold, that amount unlikely to support large bodied creatures like hominids long enough to be a resting spot.”
http://www.evoanth.net/2016/06/17/footprints-loved-lake/
” Are you aware of Habilis populations being significantly lower to than Erectus or Erectus compared to Chimps?”
Well I assume as our ancestor’s diet changed so did their foraging tactics. If I’m not mistaken it got considerably cooler over the course of our evolution, so our territory size had to increase to meet the new demands of survival.
“We then need to consider Erectus’ standards with surviving without water being potentially longer.”
Wouldn’t that mean erectus was more suited for endurance running?
To Melo,
I didn’t mean to say that I doubted your citation of footprints, I meant that if they were found near a lake that would indicate that the area was like prior to the present, being a hot climate with ample source of water.
Reading your link I seem to be right as the footprints were found on a ancient riverbank that was once a delta, teeming with more life prior.
Well I assume as our ancestor’s diet changed so did their foraging tactics. If I’m not mistaken it got considerably cooler over the course of our evolution, so our territory size had to increase to meet the new demands of survival.
“Wouldn’t that mean erectus was more suited for endurance running?”
Sorry, I meant possibly longer. As for more suited to endurance running, I doubt it due to their early development of it.
However other hominids succeeding it might of had a higher potential than current humans, pre-agricultural humans I’m most sure of.
Where I was getting at was IF it lived in areas without much water it could’ve have a longer time span of being without water to compensate.
“Where I was getting at was IF it lived in areas without much water it could’ve have a longer time span of being without water to compensate.”
How so?
“How do they tell from fossils whether an animal has fur or not?”
We can tell from when certain morphology appeared in the fossil record and make inferences.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-naked-truth/
That’s my favorite answer, as we became more and more anatomically modern, we began sweating more (we had more eccrine glands). The question is still open though.
“It seems sweating is a result of endurance running but not necessarily furlessness. Hell even the advent of fire could have caused a pressure for less hair.”
True. But it’s harder to sweat (and cool the body with) with fur, especially with how furry chimps are, we can assume how furry we used to be.
“We can tell from when certain morphology appeared in the fossil record and make inferences.”
Well the genes for skin pigmentation seems to be decent evidence but assuming that we became furless when we started endurance running is circular logic.
I’ve heard that they can infer the date we lost hair from estimating (from their molecular clock) how long ago head lice and public lice diverged. Once we lost hair, the two types of lice became isolated on different parts of our body and were no longer a single population.
“but assuming that we became furless when we started endurance running is circular logic.”
Endurance running was partly the reason we became furless. Looking at the time when our morphology began to change we can infer certain things. Endurance running causes one to heat up. Losing fur would lessen that. Parasites and sexual selection may play a role, hell maybe it’s a combo of all three but endurance running (along with the benefits from it) occurred around 2 mya, the same time that Erectus popped up. The modern-like footprints from 1.5 mya show that he most likely was an endurance runner.
Pumpkin to the rescue.
Speaking of pubic lice, parasite control as a hypothesis runs into similar problems thermoregulation does. Why have hair on our heads and pubic regions?
And then there is the fishman theory
“early Pleistocene Homo spread along the coasts of Eurasia & Africa as far as Flores, the Cape, Angola & Pakefield, and from there inland along the rivers, presumably at first seasonally, eg, following anadromous fish. Archaic Homo had a lot of traits frequently seen semi-aquatic littoral mammals: very heavy skeletons (pachyosteosclerosis, with bone thicknesses more than twice those of gorillas), flattened skulls (platycephaly), brain enlargement (DHA?), very broad bodies (iliac flaring & long femoral necks improve femoral abduction), flat femora (platymeria), external noses, olfactory reduction, dentitional reduction (MYH16 inactivation): these suggest that these people were, at least partly, shallow slow divers for “sessile” foods, esp.shellfish, but also, eg, ungulate carcasses drowned or killed in mud or shallow water. Early H.sapiens lost the heavy bones, the flattened skull-cap, the very wide pelvis, but evolved more basi-cranial flexion, eyes directed less cranially, longer tibias & stretched legs etc., which suggests they waded a lot in very shallow water, possibly in search of mobile prey, catching fish with spears or nets & presumably also waterfowl etc.
IOW, the evolution from erectus-like to sapiens seems to have been a shift from littoral to more freshwater, from more diving to more wading, from sessile to more mobile prey, from Acheulian to more complex tools used at some distance.”
“Why have hair on our heads and pubic regions?”
Sexual maturity.
“Sexual maturity.”
Maybe the pubic regions.
“Endurance running was partly the reason we became furless.”
I know what I’m saying is you can’t prove that our naked bodies are due to endurance running by looking back to when we first became furless.
“Maybe the pubic regions.”
The point.
“I know what I’m saying is you can’t prove that our naked bodies are due to endurance running by looking back to when we first became furless.”
I know. Which is why we need to make inferences and use some basic logic.
“Chimps have much less body fat than us and are about 1.5 times stronger. In that sense chimps are more athletic. In your defense we have higher testosterone levels.”
We have way more mobile shoulders. An adult chimp can only throw 20 mph.
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/27/195188631/pitch-perfect-why-our-shoulders-are-key-to-throwing
Your first link, I cited in my main post on testosterone and will analyze that in full later. Your second says we traded muscle for fat. Though a reduction of our fat depots is responsible for our brain evolution:
Click to access 10.1038%40nature10629.pdf
“This whole “Nerd vs Jock” conflict is nonsensical. That spectrum is only partially visible within our own species and it would be foolish to try and apply that even metaphorically in a universal way. Both our athletic and mental ability increased through evolution and I doubt the correlations are perfect in any particular direction. ”
Without our athleticism (endurance running/adaptations) we wouldn’t be what we have become today. I compared humans and chimps due to similar morphology, DNA, and since we came from a common ancestor. That shows the stark differences in morphology and once you understand what differs in us compared to chimps and why, you’ll see how and why the adaptations occurred.
I doubt they are perfect as well but there is good evidence that endurance running was also paramount in our brain size increase due to the hormones BDNF, IGF-1 and VEGF.
“Intelligence and athleticism are sexually co- selected traits, you are definitely correct about this, but what about the sneaky males?”
Everyone is ‘sneaky’ in a sense, see Selfish Gene theory.
“For example whites and asians are arguably less athletic than africans and have less progressive traits yet the former’s intelligence exceeds the latter. Bipedalism is like cooking, it alleviates some of the restrictions on further encephalization, but isn’t necessary for brain growth, and isn’t a “hard” selection pressure.”
Except endurance running releases endorphins that are related to increased brain size, growth hormone and increased muscle capillary density which would have more blood flow around the body, especially to the brain (and the increased 600 percent in 3mya along with 600 percent more blood flow. Erectus also had a modern gait, pelvis, and feet and most likely had hunting bands. That’s when all of this occurred). These things make us human, take one or both away and you don’t have humans anymore.
“This is one of the reasons I’ve suggested a hyper intelligent alien species could look like Octopuses.”
Maybe. Nick Lane said something like this in his book “The Vital Question”.
“Indeed, but I’d speculate that losing such a huge amount of your bodies natural fluids could induce dehydration, making it very impractical for such hot temperatures, unless there were constant water sources. Maybe the reason we’re hairless is to substitute social grooming when larger group sizes made it impossible to bond by only cleaning eachother. Like pigs or something.”
Thermoregulation and sweating make much, much more sense.
“We have way more mobile shoulders. An adult chimp can only throw 20 mph.”
Ok? My point was that what you define as athletic is kind of subjective in certain aspects.
“Though a reduction of our fat depots is responsible for our brain evolution:”
Maybe I misread but that article was stating the opposite, that the adaptation of bipedalism allowed fat and brain size to increase because it’s a more efficient way of locomotion.
From the study:
“The only animals that can easily combine both strategies of
fat storage and brain enlargement may be those that do not face an
increased cost of transport for increased whole body mass, for
example, aquatic mammals or large bipeds”
and
“The efficient form of bipedal locomotion that
arose with the transition from australopithecines to early Homo
could have led to major reductions in energy expenditure in two ways.
On one hand, its low costs in comparison with the climbing and
quadrupedal locomotion of nonhuman apes should have lowered
daily energy expenditure on locomotion, and on the other hand,
bipedalism may reduce the effect of increased weight due to adipose
depots on the energy costs of locomotion”
“but there is good evidence that endurance running was also paramount in our brain size increase due to the hormones BDNF, IGF-1 and VEGF.”
I know, I agree with you 100%. It’s just this whole “Alpha vs Omega” contest you and pumpkin keep having is ridiculous. Even the most nerdiest of men are still more “athletic” than chimps.
“Everyone is ‘sneaky’ in a sense, see Selfish Gene theory.”
Right but what I’m saying is though what If a smaller but more clever individual slept with an Alpha’s female and then that Alpha takes care of the others males children none the wiser? Factually, there are smaller, less athletically inclined individuals who get laid more and are more intelligent than the highschool football team’s star Quarterback.
“These things make us human, take one or both away and you don’t have humans anymore.”
None of that has anything to do with what i said. Here in America the most popular sports are overrun by blacks. Kenyans excel in long distance running but are not particularly smarter than any other africans. East asians are more intelligent than whites yet the former are over represented in marathons.
“Thermoregulation and sweating make much, much more sense.”
Ok. Quick set of questions: why do we have hair on our heads,specially since a big brain will overheat in desert conditions? We still sweat on our heads but then why lose hair at all if it’s not completely necessary? We aren’t the only animal that sweats and we aren’t actually hairless, it’s just really thin. Our armpits have hair, even our genitals have hair. It seems to imply sexual selection, but then why not have hair everywhere? These inquiries make me question it. But yes thermoregulation does seem to be the Occam’s razor as an explanation for our naked bodies.
“Ok? My point was that what you define as athletic is kind of subjective in certain aspects.”
Athletic—involving the physical use of skills or capabilities such as strength, agility or stamina. We have stamina that no other animal in has along with important adaptations that make it possible for us to distance run.
“Maybe I misread but that article was stating the opposite, that the adaptation of bipedalism allowed fat and brain size to increase because it’s a more efficient way of locomotion.”
“From the study:”
First quote, you’re right. Second quote, I said that in my article.
“It’s just this whole “Alpha vs Omega” contest you and pumpkin keep having is ridiculous. Even the most nerdiest of men are still more “athletic” than chimps.”
No.
“Right but what I’m saying is though what If a smaller but more clever individual slept with an Alpha’s female and then that Alpha takes care of the others males children none the wiser? Factually, there are smaller, less athletically inclined individuals who get laid more and are more intelligent than the highschool football team’s star Quarterback.”
Source? Women find meso-ecto frames somatypes more attractive.
“None of that has anything to do with what i said. Here in America the most popular sports are overrun by blacks. Kenyans excel in long distance running but are not particularly smarter than any other africans. East asians are more intelligent than whites yet the former are over represented in marathons.”
Whites and Asians marathon too. . . It’s mostly a certain tribe of Kenyans that enters marathons. It’s about fiber typing, type 1 (slow twitch) to be exact.
When I talk about it being important in our evolution, I mean overall. I didn’t bring up race in the article.
“why do we have hair on our heads”
To protect our head from UV rays. Also sexual selection.
“specially since a big brain will overheat in desert conditions?”
Why do we have big brains when it’s a disadvantage due to a smaller birth canal?
“We still sweat on our heads but then why lose hair at all if it’s not completely necessary? We aren’t the only animal that sweats and we aren’t actually hairless, it’s just really thin. Our armpits have hair, even our genitals have hair. It seems to imply sexual selection, but then why not have hair everywhere? These inquiries make me question it.”
We have some fur.
Pubic hair is a byproduct of testosterone. It signals to women ‘high testosterone’, much like a masculine face does.
“thermoregulation does seem to be the Occam’s razor as an explanation for our naked bodies.”
Understand the reasons why we lost the fur and the how sweating is involved and it makes more sense.
“Right but what I’m saying is though what If a smaller but more clever individual slept with an Alpha’s female and then that Alpha takes care of the others males children none the wiser? Factually, there are smaller, less athletically inclined individuals who get laid more and are more intelligent than the highschool football team’s star Quarterback.”
Basically a good answer is human customs against infidelity being a pressure against it.
It’s a tad complex. In monogamous populations such would be culturally discouraged and thus selected against. This applies to some polygamous cultures as well but others can even allow you to share a wife so being sneaky isn’t even necessary.
As for Kenyans in distance Running and IQ, be careful. While Kenya is mostly Bantu in ethnic compositions, it’s best runners are Nilotics in ancestry. I have no IQ data and most info supporting higher Nilotic intelligence are from old books I have links to, but the Nilotic group of the DRC called the Nande are part of the higher SES in the country.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/07/31/why-one-city-in-congo-is-astonishingly-stable-and-prosperous/?utm_term=.895c7013c380
Also you have the SES tensions of Nilotic descended Tutsi and Bantu Hutus, though both are genetically similar due to long term mixing so the gap diminished to an extent.
This kind of stuff on African Blacks in particular is sort of my hobby of study.
“Athletic—involving the physical use of skills or capabilities such as strength, agility or stamina. We have stamina that no other animal in has along with important adaptations that make it possible for us to distance run.”
Technically that is not the definition of Athletic. But using yours it still strengthens my point that we are only athletic in certain aspects. Homo “athleticus” is a meaningless term
“No.”
Yes lol.
“I mean overall. I didn’t bring up race in the article.”
If you’re claiming human endurance has a very strong positive correlation with our intelligence it should reflect racial discrepancies at least to some degree
“Source? Women find meso-ecto frames somatypes more attractive.”
“Whites and Asians marathon too”
Ecto frames are small frames anyway. Any set of data based on averages will have outliers.
Actually East asians tend to be better at tasks requiring dexterity(for efficient tool making) and endurance(not particularly running though). while blacks and whites are better with their size and fast bursts of speed….like chimps.
To be fair I have seen articles claiming Japanese are better at long distance running but only within their own nation and they barely compete globally. Still the Asian girl is probably going to get with the white guy. Yet his east asian counterpart is more “athletic”.
“Also sexual selection.”
Yeah and what’s sexier than a parasite free mate?
“Why do we have big brains when it’s a disadvantage due to a smaller birth canal?”
Babies are just born more immature. We have thick hair on our head. in near triple digit weather. while sun bombards your skull with radiation. I’m sure all that thick curly black hair locks heat in too.
“Pubic hair is a byproduct of testosterone. It signals to women ‘high testosterone’, much like a masculine face does.”
So only pubic hair is a byproduct of testosterone?
“Understand the reasons why we lost the fur and the how sweating is involved and it makes more sense.”
Oh I understand.
Phil
“Basically a good answer is human customs against infidelity being a pressure against it.”
There is a difference between a social and private taboo.
Melo,
I’m not sure how the difference applies to your example of a “sneaky” male getting with the mate of an Alpha.
Infidelity being a social taboo would discourage the behavior of trying to lay with another person’s spouse.
Are you saying that a private taboo would be more relevant to your example or that infidelity is a private taboo?
“Are you saying that a private taboo would be more relevant to your example or that infidelity is a private taboo?”
What I’m saying is that Infidelity is a social taboo, but still happens. Every individual is going to want to propagate their genes.
“What I’m saying is that Infidelity is a social taboo, but still happens. Every individual is going to want to propagate their genes.”
True, yet what I’m saying is why it is not that common is that selection against infidelity is used as a measure against such “sneaky” types.
With that said, how common are “sneaky types” that are that intelligent able to succeed in infidelity if you don’t me asking.
Are you talking about types that are more smart than athletic that manage to get women from those are athletic?
Their mere existence were they still get laid despite their disadvantage can be chalked up to being outliers, but what evidence is there that such types are common in those that commit infidelity? Typically you would think it would potential Alphas who do so.
As for how Erectus could’ve lasted without water longer, possibly a form of energy storage similar (but not as extreme) as a camel or through getting moisture from the food that it eats like alot of desert animals such as coyotes without direct sources of water.
Granted, I doubt this seeing as the link you gave shown them living or often near large bodies of water.
Also Melo, to make my point on infidelity clearer, I’m implying that despite it current presence it would’ve likely been higher in the past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidelity#Evolutionary_factors
The last bit agrees with my point on potential alphas being more common in adulterous pairings.
To Phil:
“,… but the Nilotic group of the DRC called the Nande are part of the higher SES in the country.”
The Nande are Bantu, not Nilotic.
Cont:
The Nande language:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nande_language
(the Nande are Bantus ethically/linguistically related to the Baganda and other East Central African Great Lakes region Bantu tribes.)
To Jm8, my mistake, I was thinking of Nandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_people
However evidence suggest mixing with Nilotics given their location, but it likely varies with Bantu groups but regions relative to the spot of mixing.
Click to access gomes%20v_final.pdf
On East Africans, Marathon and stuff.
First in terms of SES, East Africans aren’t a master race, their territories were invaded by the Bantus who came from West Africatook fertile lands and pushed the autochonous populations in non-arable lands where they were only left with pastoralism as a living option. But pastoralism has advantages, it allows the formation of very mobile bands able to harass sedentary agriculturalists, and there has been a worldwide trend of archaic nomads vassalizing or dominating sedentary societies (Arabs, Tuaregs, Mongols, Huns…).
Secondly, three factors are at play when it comes to endurance running: oxygenation, morphology, fiber type.
My hypothesis is that East African highlanders benefit from their African morphology and altitude adaptation for oxygenation. I suspect they have the same fiber typing as West Africans though. Anyway, good oxygenation plus African skeletton is enough to dominate Marathons.
Eurasian and Amerindian highlanders might have endurance muscle fibers and altitude oxygenation but lack the African morphology that is optimal for bipedialism.
West Africans and East African lowlanders have the optimal morphology for bipedalism but lack oxygenation and fiber typing for endurance.
Eurasian lowlanders evolved a less efficient morphology for bipedalism as a byproduct of thermoregulation constraints, so they might have evolved slow twitch muscles to compensate for this lack of fitness. And neanderthal admixture that might have been another drain.
Also, I think it’s misleading to equate endurance with marathon. I believe paleolithic hunting and warfare resembled more soccer or US football than marathon. With fast phases of sprinting and a cruise rhythm of slow running that was not as intense as that of professional long distance running.
Afrosapiens,
According to RR, East Africans do have the right fiber-typing but your comments of bipedal morphology are probably what gives them the edge.
In particular it would be longer legs and shorter torsos.
“Technically that is not the definition of Athletic. But using yours it still strengthens my point that we are only athletic in certain aspects. Homo “athleticus” is a meaningless term”
Technically, words have more than one definition.
I don’t think it’s a meaningless term. We are Homo. We are athletes. Homo athleticus. We are the best athletes out of Homo.
“Yes lol.”
The nerdiest of men is not more athletic than a chimpanzee. For the purposes of my article, sure. But relative to other humans? He’s like a baby.
“If you’re claiming human endurance has a very strong positive correlation with our intelligence it should reflect racial discrepancies at least to some degree”
Yes I am claiming this, no I am not saying it has anything to do with race and saying that it ‘should’ reflect racial discrepancies to some degree is ridiculous. I’m talking about our ancient evolution, not anything recent.
“Ecto frames are small frames anyway. Any set of data based on averages will have outliers.”
Asians are more endo than whites who are more endo than blacks. It’s endo, not ecto.
I am not talking about outliers, I am talking about averages.
“Actually East asians tend to be better at tasks requiring dexterity(for efficient tool making) and endurance(not particularly running though). while blacks and whites are better with their size and fast bursts of speed….like chimps.”
East Asians are good at powerlifting comps. I’ve seen a lot of strong East Asians in my time. East Asians are built for endurance running, they have the same fiber typing as whites…
“To be fair I have seen articles claiming Japanese are better at long distance running but only within their own nation and they barely compete globally. Still the Asian girl is probably going to get with the white guy. Yet his east asian counterpart is more “athletic”.”
K? Western Men are more manly than Japs. No surprise there. Doesn’t change the athleticism though!
“Yeah and what’s sexier than a parasite free mate?”
Right, sexual selection. You also have to think how hair would look 200 kya in Africa. I’d assume closer to modern-day Africans, tight and curled, with obvious adaptive significance for the Savanna. Like why there was selection for long hair.
http://www.unz.com/pfrost/evolution-of-long-hair/
“Babies are just born more immature. We have thick hair on our head. in near triple digit weather. while sun bombards your skull with radiation. I’m sure all that thick curly black hair locks heat in too.”
Retains sweat and promotes evaporation.
“So only pubic hair is a byproduct of testosterone?”
Sexual maturation?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/a-bushel-of-facts-about-the-uniqueness-of-human-pubic-hair/
“Oh I understand.”
So we’ve no problem here? Read this.
Click to access 2015a.pdf
We are adapted for long-range locomotion and to retain heat.
To Afro,
Do you have source on Nilotic-Bantu relations, because from what could gather with Nilotic expansion history, most modern populations didn’t form until between the 15th and 18th century.
Regarding areas where the two groups mainly met, being Kenya and Uganda, both settlements being early at 1000 b.c and the only displacement I’ve read was that of hunter gatherers.
I have read of the the Azande expanding into South Sudan, but they weren’t a dominating powerhouse as much as a competing group.
If any seems to have been a trend was Nilotics expanding but assimilating with Bantu culture as you see with the Tutsi and Hutus, the Azande to an extent.
http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/n/niamniam.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/tutsi-differ-genetically-from-the-hutu/#.WM_JF5ArLrc
“Afrosapiens,
According to RR, East Africans do have the right fiber-typing but your comments of bipedal morphology are probably what gives them the edge.
In particular it would be longer legs and shorter torsos.”
Yes, let’s not forget that running is mechanical before anything else. Everything muscular, vascular or metabolic is just slight adjustment I think.
Now I truly doubt the Ethiopian in Ethiopia is more endurant than the Nigerian in Nigeria. But th Nigerian will lack oxygen in Ethiopia whereas the Ethiopian will have an extra supply in Nigeria. So the Ethiopian will always win. But I think the Nigerian beats the Korean or the Peruvian thanks to his morphology. My sports coaches always told me that my running had something gracious and efficient, that I wasn’t moving my legs in the same way that my mostly white fellows did and they said it was common in blacks and that was probably why we dominated running.
I must be more thorough, every race is capable of endurance. What’s interesting to see when you take part in a long distance running challenge is of course who’s te fastest, but also who doesn’t give up, who shows less signs of exaustion. Most long distance races I took part-in were local events, if I ignore Paris’s marathon I done once, so there were no East African ubermenschen. Yet there was still an interesting mix of blacks, whites, arabs, vitnamese, turks… And I couldn’t notice any pattern in speed or exhaustion.
“Do you have source on Nilotic-Bantu relations”
Not right now, I can find when I’m home.
The Bantus settled Central, Eastern and Southern Africa more than 1000 years ago. They met Pygmies and Bushmen but they also met autochtonous groups linked to the Cushitic populations of the horn of Africa, only a small number of them remain, namely the Iraqw people (Nothing to do with Irak).
The indigenous East Africans have a very specifc phenotype:
They look caucasoid but they aren’t Eurasian, it’s just that East African environment doesn’t require more tropical adaptations than just darker skin.
The original Nilotics are the Dinka and Nuer, you’d call them “hyper-negroid”.
So when the Nilotics moved south they probably either fusionned with autochtonous Cushitic parstoralists to and created hybridized populations like the Maasai and Turkana.
Or lived from harassing West African agriculturalists and finally assimilating in their culture but as a ruling class while still practising pastoralism in non-arable lands like the Tutsi in Rwanda. But don’t try to find genetic superiority in that. The barbaric germans did the same to the western roman Empire, the mongols did the same to China. Nomads (or migrant societies like in the Germanic Völkerwanderung) are warrior peoples and agriculturalists are often defenseless and more pacific.
Some also learnt agriculture from the Bantu and became sedentary like the Luo in Kenya.
One more thing, after highland east Africans, the second best long distance runners are Moroccan and Algerian highlanders. It makes sense, most North Africans belong to the same Y chromosome haplogroup E as subsaharan Africans, also, human remains found in Egyptian tombs have the same morphology as Subsaharan Africans, that’s a true fact although Afrocentrists use it like HBDers use Lynn’s IQ pseudo-estimates. North Africans had no more need for shorter limbs and wider pelvises than west Africans, so they probably kept the original bipedal morphology.
Lowland North Africans do well at soccer too, Egypt has won a couple of African soccer championships (Coupe d’Afrique des Nations, awesome soccer for those who like), but West Africans dominate overall, mostly because there are more West African teams. East Africans are nowhere to be seen in soccer though, but it might not be part of their culture and the situation of Eritrea and Somalia as well as the recent recovery of Ethiopia also account for their absence in a sport that’s about big money.
“My hypothesis is that East African highlanders benefit from their African morphology and altitude adaptation for oxygenation. I suspect they have the same fiber typing as West Africans though. Anyway, good oxygenation plus African skeletton is enough to dominate Marathons.”
Everything you said is right except for muscle fiber type. Kenyans have more type 1. Kenya is also the only African country to have placed in the WSM. This is because of their muscle fiber typing. When you’re lifting something heavy, your slow fibers fire first, then your fast fire.
Read this discussion I had:
“Eurasian and Amerindian highlanders might have endurance muscle fibers and altitude oxygenation but lack the African morphology that is optimal for bipedialism.”
Right (partly in regards to Kenyans).
“West Africans and East African lowlanders have the optimal morphology for bipedalism but lack oxygenation and fiber typing for endurance.”
Kenyans have an abundance of type I fibers. There were fewer cases of diabetes in Kenya than in Nigeria in 2015.
http://www.idf.org/membership/afr/kenya
http://www.idf.org/membership/afr/nigeria
As I will argue in an upcoming article (and have done so a bit already), type 2 fibers are risk factors for cardiometabolic disease, cancer, and diabetes. Combined with sedentary behavior, this makes it worse. Black Americans need to heighten their anaerobic capacity. They need to exercise differently than whites to ameliorate the problems they have.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21382179
This is where race is a useful factor in regards to health and disease.
“Eurasian lowlanders evolved a less efficient morphology for bipedalism as a byproduct of thermoregulation constraints, so they might have evolved slow twitch muscles to compensate for this lack of fitness. And neanderthal admixture that might have been another drain.”
I can agree with this. I would assume that Neandertals had slow twitch fibers. You can see that North European populations have slighltly more slow twitch fibers, which were obviously evolutionarily advantageous.
“Also, I think it’s misleading to equate endurance with marathon. I believe paleolithic hunting and warfare resembled more soccer or US football than marathon. With fast phases of sprinting and a cruise rhythm of slow running that was not as intense as that of professional long distance running.”
Exactly. How we became athletic is due to marathon running. The runner’s high evolved to keep us running as prey or as predators. Endurance running was hella important to our evolution.
“Everything you said is right except for muscle fiber type. Kenyans have more type 1. Kenya is also the only African country to have placed in the WSM.”
Kenya isn’t a good proxy of East African ancestry as the overwhelming majority of Kenyans are of West African ancestry. Ethiopia is the most reprsentative country and it has close to 100 million inhabiants. Also, you need to tell me Kenya’s strongest man name so that I can be sure that he’s not a Bantu and that he’s part of the “runner tribes”.
“Kenyans have an abundance of type I fibers. There were fewer cases of diabetes in Kenya than in Nigeria in 2015.”
Yes, because Nigeria is much more populated than Kenya, but the incidence of diabetes per adult is lower in Nigeria actually:
From your source:
West Africa:
-Nigeria: 1.9%
-Ghana: 1.9%
-Mali: 1.8%
-Senegal: 1.8%
East Africa:
-Ethiopia: 2.9%
-Kenya: 2.2%
-Eritrea: 3%
So as you can see, West African ancestry seems to lower the incidence of diabetes. Environmenal factors might be at play but Kenya seems to be an outlier in East Africa due to the majority of its population being West African.
“As I will argue in an upcoming article (and have done so a bit already), type 2 fibers are risk factors for cardiometabolic disease, cancer, and diabetes.”
I’ll wait and see, but for the time being West Africans (In Africa) are probably the healthiest population in everyting metabolic, dietary and cardiovascular, check out WHO’s stats.
“I can agree with this. I would assume that Neandertals had slow twitch fibers. You can see that North European populations have slighltly more slow twitch fibers, which were obviously evolutionarily advantageous.”
One thing I wonder about neanderthal admixture in you guys: is it possible that it has been much higher in the past and went down to current levels after being strongly selected against ? When homo Sapiens entered Eurasia, they must have been severely outnumbered, so it’s strange that admixture is only 4% now. I mean, if they fucked once with ‘thals why didn’t they fuck everytime they met with them ?
“Endurance running was hella important to our evolution.”
Yep, I cosign. But, what I meant is that we must get olympic marathon out of our minds when we discuss that. What mattered the most, in my opinion, wasn’t how fast humans could run over long distances, which is what East Africans excel at but just how long they could sustain such an effort at whatever speed.
You may have a point with endurance with a Nigeria versus an Ethiopian due to the former being stockier on average.
“One more thing, after highland east Africans, the second best long distance runners are Moroccan and Algerian highlanders. It makes sense, most North Africans belong to the same Y chromosome haplogroup E as subsaharan Africans, also, human remains found in Egyptian tombs have the same morphology as Subsaharan Africans, that’s a true fact although Afrocentrists use it like HBDers use Lynn’s IQ pseudo-estimates. North Africans had no more need for shorter limbs and wider pelvises than west Africans, so they probably kept the original bipedal morphology.”
Actually it may also be largely due to the sub type of Caucasian that they are, mainly Meditteranean that has similar heat adapted proportions of the torso and Legs on top of being highlanders as well.
Technically yes they do have “E” but it’s a variant more common among Eurasian populations, likely relfective of an ancient African lineage descended into eurasian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_North_Africa#Y-chromosome_DNA
Also I think autosomal results would work better, and in that regard the closest would be Egyptians.
Kenya’s strongest man contestant.
There is no sound in my country so I can’t here names. But they all look Bantu, I doubt an East African highlander can get so bulky.
Phil78, as well as the other guys, leave race, IQ and other things like that aside, they are rocks in your shoes.
North Africans are genetically and morphologically related to West Africans, most share the same common male ancestor (E haplogroup) and have the same skeletal morphology. Race is something else.
“We are athletes.”
In only like one aspect. I just don’t like how this scientific argument is based on a ideological conflict you and pumpkin have.
“For the purposes of my article, sure. But relative to other humans? He’s like a baby.”
You’re contradicting yourself I said nerds are more athletic(in your sense) than chimps because they are more adapted for endurance running. You can’t deny this.
“saying that it ‘should’ reflect racial discrepancies to some degree is ridiculous. ”
No it’s not, if athleticism has a high correlation with our species’ trend towards intelligence, then why wouldn’t the pattern mirror racial discrepancies?
“Asians are more endo than whites who are more endo than blacks. It’s endo, not ecto.”
You said ecto was more attractive. Ecto looks like a skinnier frame, endo is a fat one. Asians are less fat, at least in america. Even then why would the most intelligent, most athletic race be the least attractive?
“East Asians are good at powerlifting comps.”
Not like whites though. Also, what’s that got to do with my point?
“Doesn’t change the athleticism though!”
Doesn’t change the east asians dry dick though!
“Retains sweat and promotes evaporation.”
But you just said hair does the opposite.
“Sexual maturation?”
Do blacks have more or less pubic hair than whites and asians?
“So we’ve no problem here?”
Course not, I’m just being my argumentative self.
Afro and RR
“They look caucasoid but they aren’t Eurasian, it’s just that East African environment doesn’t require more tropical adaptations than just darker skin”.
“Kenya is also the only African country to have placed in the WSM. This is because of their muscle fiber typing. When you’re lifting something heavy, your slow fibers fire first, then your fast fire.”
Wasn’t the first migration into Eurasia out of East Africa? Would you think Whites, Asians, and Kenyans all having the same muscle fiber type has to do with that?
Or maybe like Afro said, they aren’t actually representative of ancient east africans.
“When homo Sapiens entered Eurasia, they must have been severely outnumbered, so it’s strange that admixture is only 4% now. I mean, if they fucked once with ‘thals why didn’t they fuck everytime they met with them ?”
Homo sapiens out numbered neanderthals by like 9 to 1 or something. The percentage of Admixture we retained is probably beneficial.
To Afrosapiens,
I was just researching Kenyan Strongmen and I agree, they are likely Bantu and are likely aided by their stockier build compared to nilotics.
However, they may have better oxygen consumption than West Africans of not Fiber-typing.
As for North Africans, well first we should get background on E.
The most common theory is that E began in East Africa, it’s just that West Africans have the highest E percentages and also have most variants of E.
Different lineages of E though exist that are rare but exist in Eurasians, ones that are more common in Eurasians than other African populations as they also descended from East Africans.
All I’m pointed out is that the E variant is closer to that shared with Eurasians than other Africans.
Second of all, someone critical on HBD would no better than to confuse a individual’s overall genetic relation with another person based on halpogroups, so why do the same with population.
Yes, it can give you an idea on the lineages that’s part of it’s genepool due it doesn’t account for breeding patterns causing a sex chromosome to be more dominant than it’s actual associated autosomal DNA in a population.
Example, assuming E even meant that North and West Africans share the same male ancestor excludes the lineage it has with Neolithic populations from West Asia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/recent-origin-of-north-african.html
Also, show me data of Modern North Africans being morphologically closer to West Africans than to Eurasians.
Yout Egyptian example would only work with East Africans
“In only like one aspect. I just don’t like how this scientific argument is based on a ideological conflict you and pumpkin have.”
ER was paramount to our evolution. It’s not based on ‘ideology’. I don’t argue about ‘ideologies’. I argue about science.
“You’re contradicting yourself I said nerds are more athletic(in your sense) than chimps because they are more adapted for endurance running. You can’t deny this.”
I am not denying it. My point is, we didn’t evolve to be eggheads who sit down all day and crunch numbers. Those things increase all-cause mortality. We evolved to be a species on the move, and any change to that kind of environment leads to deleterious health effects.
“No it’s not, if athleticism has a high correlation with our species’ trend towards intelligence, then why wouldn’t the pattern mirror racial discrepancies?”
Raichlen and Polk 2012 shows the evidence for heightened VEGF, IGF-1, and BDNF. High endurance running means bigger capillaries and over our evolution a bigger brain. Why talk about race when I didn’t bring it up? Are you saying if African tribes who do a lot of persistence hunting don’t have large brains that endurance running doesn’t release these hormones?
“You said ecto was more attractive. Ecto looks like a skinnier frame, endo is a fat one. Asians are less fat, at least in america. Even then why would the most intelligent, most athletic race be the least attractive?”
Yea I did. I’m just telling you the ethnic skew for somatype. Obviously intelligence isn’t everything for attractiveness. “Asians are less fat”, they still have an endo somatype. Somatyping is actually a bit more complex than ecto-endo-meso and there are racial differences (muscle mass is around 50 percent heritable). It has to do with proportions and fat distribution around the body. East Asian, the so-called ‘Super Race’ are the least attractive race. Ironic!!!
Women want taller men more than men want shorter women, start there.
http://www.academia.edu/3151923/Women_want_taller_men_more_than_men_want_shorter_women
You said: “Actually East asians tend to be better at tasks requiring dexterity(for efficient tool making) and endurance(not particularly running though). while blacks and whites are better with their size and fast bursts of speed….like chimps”
“Not like whites though. Also, what’s that got to do with my point?”
Ha. They excel in weightlifting/power lifting (which take type IIa fibers, and, of course, an abundance of type I). We can see this is the case in regards to West African descendants. They have lower representation due to their fiber typing. Type IIx is what they’re abundant in while the power sports utilize IIa which Eurasians have.
“Doesn’t change the east asians dry dick though!”
This just in: it takes more than being a good athlete to get laid! If your personality is dry your dick is dry! I spoke about East Asian mating woes here.
“But you just said hair does the opposite.”
The hair on our head*, it also protects the top of our skull from UV.
“Do blacks have more or less pubic hair than whites and asians?”
No idea, I think Rushton has some data on this. =^)
“Course not, I’m just being my argumentative self.”
I meant no problem with my thesis.
“Kenya isn’t a good proxy of East African ancestry as the overwhelming majority of Kenyans are of West African ancestry. Ethiopia is the most reprsentative country and it has close to 100 million inhabiants. Also, you need to tell me Kenya’s strongest man name so that I can be sure that he’s not a Bantu and that he’s part of the “runner tribes”.”
Whoops, thanks. Not too up to speed on African ethnic groups.
Conrad Njeru Karukenya is the current Strongest Man in Kenya.
http://mobile.nation.co.ke/news/Tiger-Power-Conrad-Njeru-Karukenya-Kenyatta-University/1950946-2269646-format-xhtml-12egnqv/index.html
The man to place in the WSM was named Pius Ochieng from Kenya in the 1984 competition.
“Yes, because Nigeria is much more populated than Kenya, but the incidence of diabetes per adult is lower in Nigeria actually:”
Hm you’re right. However people with type I fibers have a lower chance to get cardiometabolic disease. People born with fewer type II fibers (American blacks) have higher rates of cancer, diabetes and cardiometabolic disease.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-6175.2007.07846.x/full
Whites have 41 percent more type I fibers while blacks have 33 percent type II fibers:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2946652
The difference may seem small, but you must also remember that black Americans have higher levels of type IIx fibers, which furthers the negative cardiometabolic effects from the type II fibers. Type II fibers are strongly related to disease acquisition and is why black Americans need to do more anaerobic exercise than whites and they also need to do more physical activity.
“I’ll wait and see, but for the time being West Africans (In Africa) are probably the healthiest population in everyting metabolic, dietary and cardiovascular, check out WHO’s stats.”
As with the above part, environment plays a strong part in this. Wherever a Western diet goes, bad things follow.
“One thing I wonder about neanderthal admixture in you guys: is it possible that it has been much higher in the past and went down to current levels after being strongly selected against ? When homo Sapiens entered Eurasia, they must have been severely outnumbered, so it’s strange that admixture is only 4% now. I mean, if they fucked once with ‘thals why didn’t they fuck everytime they met with them ?”
There is some Neanderthal admixture in some Africans due to a back migration around 3kya.
Yea it was obviously higher in the past. There have been a few recent things on Neanderthal admixture recently, mostly about being protected against some diseases. I’ve read that climate change was the final nail in the coffin. Rapid environmental changes that occur without adaptation cause extinction.
Svante Paabo is the main proponent of the admixture hypothesis between us and Neanderthals. Others are that we killed them off and climate, but I think it’s a bit of both. Once Neanderthals died out and only we were left that’s why it began to decrease.
“Yep, I cosign. But, what I meant is that we must get olympic marathon out of our minds when we discuss that. What mattered the most, in my opinion, wasn’t how fast humans could run over long distances, which is what East Africans excel at but just how long they could sustain such an effort at whatever speed.”
Right. We have the most endurance in the animal kingdom. In this regard, we are ‘special’.
“I don’t argue about ‘ideologies’.”
Yes you do. The “jock vs nerd” dichotomy is an ideology, not reflective of the actual reality. That was really the only thing I disagreed with in the post. I’m not saying Homo sapiens inherently evolved to be nerds or not. I’m saying the metaphor is stupid and it’s a waste of time for you and pumpkin or me to argue about. Like how a lot of your posts are about how “special” we aren’t. Pumpkin’s are always geared to the triarchic racial theory. You guys are always trying to prove something right when you should be trying to falsify it, which is what I’ve been doing this entire time.
“My point is, we didn’t evolve to be eggheads who sit down all day and crunch numbers.”
And who said we did? Those number crunching egg heads are still more bipedal and durable than a chimp. In hunter gatherer times they’d be the ones making the best tools.
“Are you saying if African tribes who do a lot of persistence hunting don’t have large brains that endurance running doesn’t release these hormones?”
Africans do have large brains. Eurasians are just larger. Yet they have lower T and subsequently have less sex.
“East Asian, the so-called ‘Super Race’ are the least attractive race. Ironic!!!”
Right, so in this instance the most athletic person does not pass on their genes more successfully. That was my original point.
“They excel in weightlifting/power lifting”
That doesn’t contradict anything I said lol.
“This just in: it takes more than being a good athlete to get laid!”
No shit. I said that earlier.
“The hair on our head*”
So then why aren’t we completely hairy? If the hair on our head is better than chimps hair for allowing sweat to reach the skin then why couldn’t body hair follow suit?
“it also protects the top of our skull from UV.”
I thought that’s what black skin was for?
“No idea, I think Rushton has some data on this.”
Well I know what I’m doing tonight now.
“I meant no problem with my thesis.”
I know, that’s what I meant.
To Phil78
“You may have a point with endurance with a Nigeria versus an Ethiopian due to the former being stockier on average.”
No, this is not what I argue, my point is that East African highlanders have better oxygen intake due to their adaptation to altitude. But when it comes to morphology and muscle fibres, I grossly argue that they are Jamaicans from the mountains. They are fast runners on long distances whereas Jamaicans are fast runners on short distance but I can’t tell how long both can last at running at their favorite speed, which is the true definition of endurance. Marathon isn’t endurance, it’s a race.
“Actually it may also be largely due to the sub type of Caucasian that they are, mainly Meditteranean that has similar heat adapted proportions of the torso and Legs on top of being highlanders as well.”
It might be, but given that they share a common male ancestor with subsaharans, that they live in Africa and that heat did not justify cold climate adaptation in morphology I can infer that they retained african morphology although they evolved caucasoid features due to Eurasian immigration and local adaptation to environment on other traits.
“Technically yes they do have “E” but it’s a variant more common among Eurasian populations, likely relfective of an ancient African lineage descended into eurasian.”
By the time Africans first migrated to Eurasia, Bab-el-Mandeb was a landbridge, the two continents were a single landmass so East African and West Asian are pretty much synonymous. Also, the “races” as we know them did not exist. Climatic variation has been huge over the course of human (Sapiens) evolution, so phenotypes evolved accordingly.
https://i0.wp.com/climate.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Earth-Temp.png?resize=1200%2C413
This is also why peepee is wrong when he rejects phylogenic trees based on DNA. A similar phenotype can reflect retention of common ancestral genes but also, and more commonly, convergent evolution with different genotypes leading to a similar phenotype.
“Also, show me data of Modern North Africans being morphologically closer to West Africans than to Eurasians.”
No I can’t, you can stalk Afrocentrist forums to find data on Ancient egyptians but as far as modern N Africans, it’s a speculation of mine.
Also, no offense to you Phil but I don’t always understand you, sometimes I don’t understand your English, other times I don’t understand your logic and sometimes I don’t understand both. But I’m sure what you say makes sense intrinsically, your argumentation is genuine and you’re not maliciously creating confusion, I just don’t get you sometimes.
To MeLo
“Wasn’t the first migration into Eurasia out of East Africa? Would you think Whites, Asians, and Kenyans all having the same muscle fiber type has to do with that?”
I believe east and west Africans have the same muscle fiber types. As I told Phil above, current races mean nothing to evolution before the holocene.
“Homo sapiens out numbered neanderthals by like 9 to 1 or something. The percentage of Admixture we retained is probably beneficial.”
Sauce on ‘thals demographics ? And no on beneficial admixture, Eurasians have a deficit in fitness due to Neanderthal admixture
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/11/30/non-african-humans-may-carry-harmful-neanderthal-genes-lower-fitness/
Wow that’s a lot of writing… need a break before I respond to RR’s comment.
Afro Say “Pee IN” wrote:
A similar phenotype can reflect retention of common ancestral genes but also, and more commonly, convergent evolution with different genotypes leading to a similar phenotype
How do you know convergent evolution is the more common cause?
Because East Africa’s environment was not the same as present day by the time of OoA. It was much drier and much colder, maybe requiring a more caucasoid phenotype. So the ancestor of Negroids and Australoid wasn’t adapted to warm and humid climates, the two groups probably evolved their tropical phenotype convergently, long after they split, during the holocene.
Before I go source hunting tonight when I’m home, I can already cite the evolution of light skin which isn’t based on the same genes in Europeans and East Asians.
“Yes you do. The “jock vs nerd” dichotomy is an ideology, not reflective of the actual reality. That was really the only thing I disagreed with in the post. I’m not saying Homo sapiens inherently evolved to be nerds or not. I’m saying the metaphor is stupid and it’s a waste of time for you and pumpkin or me to argue about. Like how a lot of your posts are about how “special” we aren’t. Pumpkin’s are always geared to the triarchic racial theory. You guys are always trying to prove something right when you should be trying to falsify it, which is what I’ve been doing this entire time.”
True. Though my point is that our athleticism partly faciliated our ‘enchephilization’.
“And who said we did? Those number crunching egg heads are still more bipedal and durable than a chimp. In hunter gatherer times they’d be the ones making the best tools.”
The point about this ‘dichotomy’ is that ‘nerds’ would get eaten alive by those who are physically superior if/when shit hits the fan (like if civilization falls). I even said that ‘nerds’ were less desireable by women compared to ‘jocks’ as I cited in my article.
“Yet they have lower T”
East Asians > Africans > Europeans in terms of testosterone.
We’ve been through this extensively here.
The Rushton’s Rule garbage needs to be put to bed for most traits.
“Right, so in this instance the most athletic person does not pass on their genes more successfully. That was my original point.”
Any data on competitors’ biological success compared to non-competitors’ biological success in Japan? We know the Japanese birthrate is 1.3, any data broken down on who has fewer children? Only way to settle this.
And of course Japanese men get eaten alive outside of Japan in terms of distance running.
“That doesn’t contradict anything I said lol.”
You said they aren’t good at PL comps “like whites though”. That’s wrong. Tons of Olympic/Power lifters are East Asian. Eurasians/Middle Easterns dominate the sport and Africans are suspisciously absent. . .
“So then why aren’t we completely hairy? If the hair on our head is better than chimps hair for allowing sweat to reach the skin then why couldn’t body hair follow suit?”
The parasite hypothesis is interesting though. If selection for hairlessness occurred due to parasited then sexual selection for hairless men would have persisted as a sign of fitness.
Lose of body hair facilitates sweating. We were able to cool our bodies with our sweat which began with Erectus.
“I thought that’s what black skin was for?”
It is.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25682789
“Well I know what I’m doing tonight now.”
I was being sarcastic. . .
“Though my point is that our athleticism partly faciliated our ‘enchephilization’.”
And I agree.
“The point about this ‘dichotomy’ is that ‘nerds’ would get eaten alive by those who are physically superior if/when shit hits the fan (like if civilization falls).”
How do you know that? Why would it be a good idea to be violent, clannish and stupid in an apocalypse scenario?
“East Asians > Africans > Europeans in terms of testosterone.”
Yes but that says south asians have the highest levels of T and despite east aisans higher levels, they still have less sex.
Also, I was under the impression that Asians “have less of an ability to absorb testosterone, so think of it this way. Even if Asians have the same serum level as blacks or whites, on average, they can use less of it, and also when serum level equalizes in middle age, that could mean that blacks or whites have that amount because they have already absorbed more than Asians.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2608588/
“Any data on competitors’ biological success compared to non-competitors’ biological success in Japan?”
Well using age and sexual experience as (very)crude proxies, 70% of japanese who have sexual experiences are between the ages of 25-29 while college students (18-24) were 3rd and last in percentage of seual experience. Middle aged folks were around 2nd.
Even then marathon runners aren’t really what you’d think of as popular athletes, and I’m sure star athletes get laid more than the average individual in any country. But I think it’s more reliant on status than any particular area of expertise.
Click to access Nfs14_Singles_Eng.pdf
“You said they aren’t good at PL comps”
I wasn’t trying to say they weren’t good at it, just that whites are better…right?
“The parasite hypothesis is interesting though.”
It’s no coincidence that parasite load decreases IQ.
“It is.”
Right, so isn’t the hair kind of redundant then?
Afro
“Sauce on ‘thals demographics ?”
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/333/6042/623
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_2.htm
“Eurasians have a deficit in fitness due to Neanderthal admixture”
It’s both. But mostly beneficial because deleterious mutations would have been selected against.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161110153149.htm
http://www.evoanth.net/2017/03/09/ancient-interbreeding-helped-humans-fight-disease/
http://www.evoanth.net/2014/01/30/neanderthal-genes-helped-humans-adapt/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24476670
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v507/n7492/abs/nature12961.html
“No, this is not what I argue, my point is that East African highlanders have better oxygen intake due to their adaptation to altitude. But when it comes to morphology and muscle fibres, I grossly argue that they are Jamaicans from the mountains. They are fast runners on long distances whereas Jamaicans are fast runners on short distance but I can’t tell how long both can last at running at their favorite speed, which is the true definition of endurance. Marathon isn’t endurance, it’s a race.”
“running at their favorite speed”? Wouldn’t endurance be more objective by comparing how long both can maintain a certain speed?
“It might be, but given that they share a common male ancestor with subsaharans, that they live in Africa and that heat did not justify cold climate adaptation in morphology I can infer that they retained african morphology although they evolved caucasoid features due to Eurasian immigration and local adaptation to environment on other traits.”
The only problem I have is that the ancestor they share is an African one that would be closer to the ancestor of modern Eurasians than other Africans if we track that specific E variant.
At some point all Eurasians had an African ancestor, the prevalence of E alone being superficial in determining a genetic association with Africans in particular without considering autosomal similarities.
Furthermore, modern North Africans who many come from neolithic waves of the Caspian culture already had a body type fit for African (read warm) environments.
“By the time Africans first migrated to Eurasia, Bab-el-Mandeb was a landbridge, the two continents were a single landmass so East African and West Asian are pretty much synonymous.”
But that’s the thing, they weren’t always the same landmass nor did the genepools stay the same overtime.
Also I’ve already explained why that single E link wouldn’t mean that they are closer to Subsaharans compared to Eurasians.
“Also, the “races” as we know them did not exist. Climatic variation has been huge over the course of human (Sapiens) evolution, so phenotypes evolved accordingly.”
Okay, you say races “as we know them”, if you care to explain what you mean by that, don’t exist. Yet you contended (weakly) that in genetics and morphology they are linked with West Africans so what kind of relationship are you supporting there?
I wanted data confirming that you said on that relationship.
“This is also why peepee is wrong when he rejects phylogenic trees based on DNA. A similar phenotype can reflect retention of common ancestral genes but also, and more commonly, convergent evolution with different genotypes leading to a similar phenotype.”
Yet you don’t see the irony there? At the same time, you argue with “body morphology” that they are closer the Africans despite the only definite traits you provided being limb proportions (being essentially useless as you don’t provide metrics to compare to other population that may also have such, AKA Mediterranean type West Eurasians).
Suppose I gave you a phylogram for North Africans and they cluster to Eurasians than to SSA, what would you say?
“No I can’t, you can stalk Afrocentrist forums to find data on Ancient egyptians but as far as modern N Africans, it’s a speculation of mine.”
Says race as “we know it” not existing, yet decides to cite among the most notorious racially bias group on the internet (not to say they are the worst, but that doesn’t make them any less cautious of a source).
Trust me, I’m familiar with them already and a egyptsearch link of a study of Egyptians shown that they are “closer to surrounding african groups but overall closer to eurasians”, not understanding that Africans =/= West Africans.
Feel free to observe.
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/the-birth-of-the-caucasian-race/#comment-271280
There was a reason why I asked if you had data, because I had data on lineage and ancestry relevant phenotypes that argue otherwise of a link for euraisans with modern North Africans, like skull and dental traits.
BTW, Ancient Egyptians would have a significant East African Heritage unlike Morrocans and Algerians. It would be a bad call to cite Afrocentrics on a link with the latter because they always call modern North Africans “Arabs” who invaded.
“Also, no offense to you Phil but I don’t always understand you, sometimes I don’t understand your English, other times I don’t understand your logic and sometimes I don’t understand both. But I’m sure what you say makes sense intrinsically, your argumentation is genuine and you’re not maliciously creating confusion, I just don’t get you sometimes.”
So I’m not clear enough, then I might need to briefly reiterate,
1. In overall genetic relation, North Africans are closer to Eurasians than Subsaharan populations with the Exceptions of populations in the NE that are linked with Horners, who themselves are mixed as well
http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html
and Sahelians groups.
2. Given the Nature of E variants in Eurasian populations and the nature of haplogroups in inferring lineages, it’s not that informative on it’s own on genetic relation based on distance.
3. I however agree if you mean “African” in terms of adaptation to a region of the continent over a long period of time with some gene flow, but not all Africans even have the “same morphology”. Ectomorphs being more characteristic in East Africa and Mesomorphs more so in West Africa.
“How do you know that? Why would it be a good idea to be violent, clannish and stupid in an apocalypse scenario?”
Look at the most popular sports as who would have fared best in our ancestral past. Does it look like ‘nerds’ can hang there? No. Reductions in testosterone caused civilization to rise:
So in a scenario where civilization falls and it’s every man for themselves, will a physically weak smart person thrive, or will a physically strong and athletic person thrive? Then throw intelligence on top of physical strength/athleticism, then you’d see the CEO type thrive most.
“Yes but that says south asians have the highest levels of T and despite east aisans higher levels, they still have less sex.”
Source?
“Also, I was under the impression that Asians “have less of an ability to absorb testosterone, so think of it this way. Even if Asians have the same serum level as blacks or whites, on average, they can use less of it, and also when serum level equalizes in middle age, that could mean that blacks or whites have that amount because they have already absorbed more than Asians.””
Right when I saw you say “under the imprression that Asians” I knew you would cite Pettaway 1999.
It mainly reflects ethnic differences in obesity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376505
I’ve also shown that people with type I fibers—regardless of race or ethny—are less likely to be obese than populations with an abundance of type IIb (x) fibers:
Ethnic differences in obesity:
Testosterone doesn’t even cause prostate cancer:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4647137/
Click to access 10.1002%40ijc.11572.pdf
“Well using age and sexual experience as (very)crude proxies, 70% of japanese who have sexual experiences are between the ages of 25-29 while college students (18-24) were 3rd and last in percentage of seual experience. Middle aged folks were around 2nd.”
Meh. I won’t even address this.
Women are more sexually attracted to athletes.
In this study they were more attracted to cyclists.
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/10/2/20130966
Women are attracted to athletes because it signals higher levels of fitness. We like the sports that hearken back to our ancestral past more. These sports show who’d have been on top, so to speak.
Fertility rates hinge much more on variables other than being attracted to athleticism, you know this. I wrote a bit about the fertility problems in Japan. I know about it.
“Even then marathon runners aren’t really what you’d think of as popular athletes, and I’m sure star athletes get laid more than the average individual in any country. But I think it’s more reliant on status than any particular area of expertise.”
Their expertise is the cause of their status.
“I wasn’t trying to say they weren’t good at it, just that whites are better…right?”
Yup.
“It’s no coincidence that parasite load decreases IQ.”
? I wasn’t talking about IQ. I was talking about fur loss, which PP also brought up and is a competing theory. Maybe it’s a mixture. All I know is that the data for thermoregulation and heat loss is pretty robust.
“Right, so isn’t the hair kind of redundant then?”
You think humans should be bald then?
“Look at the most popular sports as who would have fared best in our ancestral past.”
Lmao, that is not a good proxy at all.
“No. Reductions in testosterone caused civilization to rise:”
No it didn’t. First of all the neotenization of cro magnon man was not because of a reduction in testosterone. It was because of further sexual selection for more neuroplasiticty and to keep our globular skull as it enlarged. Our testosterone increased and so did the progressive features on our faces. If what you said was true it would contradict your whole post.
“physically weak smart person thrive, or will a physically strong and athletic person thrive? ”
The smart person. Then again, it depends on what kind of scenario we’re talking. In a zombie apocalypse, Machoism will get you killed. If an infectious disease started to wipe out humanity, Africans would be the most likely to survive, and they are neither the smartest or the most athletic. In a nuclear holocaust only rich schizos would be left.
Hunting isn’t restricted to only persistence hunting. Hand eye coordination, and intelligence would be the most valuable asset, athleticism is correlated but not really necessary. Especially with long range weapons.
“Source?”
Which statement?
The link you gave me even said Indo aryans had the highest levels of testosterone, East asians were second.
You already know that East asian countries have low fertility rates, and the japanese pdf i sent you even showed that japan has very little sex compared to the rest of the world.
“Right when I saw you say “under the imprression that Asians” I knew you would cite Pettaway 1999.”
I thought the link was saying that east asians simply absorbed less testosterone.Not that they had less?
“Meh. I won’t even address this.”
Don’t know why. The Marathon runners In japan that outperformed kenyans were college students, that’s why it was significant. They have the least sex.
“Women are more sexually attracted to athletes.”
Just like they’re more attracted to big dicks, good looks, humorous personalities, and money. Simply one correlation that is in no way absolute.
“Women are attracted to athletes because it signals higher levels of fitness”
Many things signal status beyond simple physical feats. Women like someone who is in good shape not someone who is in the best shape.
“Their expertise is the cause of their status.”
Exactly and that expertise is not limited to athleticism as a way to gain status.
“I wasn’t talking about IQ.”
You were talking about genetic fitness. High intelligence is a sign of such beneficial characteristics.
“You think humans should be bald then?”
I don’t think humans should look any particular way. But i do want to know why they look the way they do and why they don’t look like something else.
To MeLo
Ok, I could accept your sources on demographics but they only say humans outnumbered ‘thals in Europe, not at first encounter in West Asia. Anyway, it is clear that humans quickly outnumbered neanderthals, I kind of a blow to to your hypothesis that humans had to be smart enough to compete with Neanderthals. There is nothing like that, they won with their women’s wombs, not their men’s spears.
“It’s both. But mostly beneficial because deleterious mutations would have been selected against.”
Nah, it’s mostly harmful, one of your source says Neanderthal DNA is still being selected against.
“We identify multiple Neanderthal-derived alleles that confer risk for disease, suggesting that Neanderthal alleles continue to shape human biology. An unexpected finding is that regions with reduced Neanderthal ancestry are enriched in genes, implying selection to remove genetic material derived from Neanderthals. Genes that are more highly expressed in testes than in any other tissue are especially reduced in Neanderthal ancestry, and there is an approximately fivefold reduction of Neanderthal ancestry on the X chromosome, which is known from studies of diverse species to be especially dense in male hybrid sterility genes10, 11, 12. These results suggest that part of the explanation for genomic regions of reduced Neanderthal ancestry is Neanderthal alleles that caused decreased fertility in males when moved to a modern human genetic background.”
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v507/n7492/abs/nature12961.html
Otherwise, Neanderthal admixture was only an evolutionary shortcut for the evolution of light skin (Who said light skin was a “progressive” trait?).
“Analyses of surviving archaic lineages suggest that there were fitness costs to hybridization, admixture occurred both before and after divergence of non-African modern humans, and Neandertals were a source of adaptive variation for loci involved in skin phenotypes. ”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24476670
It’s all from your links.
To Phil78
“Wouldn’t endurance be more objective by comparing how long both can maintain a certain speed?”
In fact, to be correct, I should have said we can only compare the endurance of various groups by measuring how long they can run at the same speed in their respective ancestral environment.
“The only problem I have is that the ancestor they share is an African one that would be closer to the ancestor of modern Eurasians than other Africans if we track that specific E variant.”
There is a couple of things you’re not getting, Y chromosome haplogroups only mean some people share one common male ancestor. It has nothing to do with overall genetic similarity or race. Most Subsaharan and North Africans (Indigenous Egyptians and Berbers) belong to the same male lineage that appeared either in East Africa or in Arabia which were connected by a landbridge at that time. This common ancestor lived in a hot region, and both North and Subsaharan Africans still live in hot region, so they probably retained the athletic morphology of their common male ancestor (especially since athleticism was mostly selected in men) in spite of evolving differently on other traits and receiving admixture from other populations.
“At some point all Eurasians had an African ancestor, the prevalence of E alone being superficial in determining a genetic association with Africans in particular without considering autosomal similarities.”
No native Eurasian haplogroup derives from E. E derives from DE, Native Eurasian haplogroups derive from CT, Except D, the brother of E and that is still found in Andamanese, Japanese and other Asians, in low frequency though. Anyway, as I said before, these haplogroups only show common male ancestry, not overall genetic similarity, although a common male ancestor can result in common mutations being passed on in males.
“Okay, you say races “as we know them”, if you care to explain what you mean by that, don’t exist. Yet you contended (weakly) that in genetics and morphology they are linked with West Africans so what kind of relationship are you supporting there?”
Current day races did not exist for most of our evolutionary history (past tense buddy). There is nothing more I have to explain, the climate was different, so were the selective pressures our phenotypes had to adapt to.
I’m not talking about overall genetics, I’m talking about one fucking haplogroup that denotes common male ancestry. If you can’t get the distinction, I cant help you my friend.
In morphology, as far as bipedalism is concerned, they kept the hot climate pelvic anatomy and limbs/torso ratio that makes them more similar to West Africans than to Swedes. I’m just talking about these two traits.
“Yet you don’t see the irony there? At the same time, you argue with “body morphology” that they are closer the Africans despite the only definite traits you provided being limb proportions (being essentially useless as you don’t provide metrics to compare to other population that may also have such, AKA Mediterranean type West Eurasians).”
There is no irony, there is only you not understanding me. No, I don’t provide source because I don’t have time, but you can also search yourself, everybody on here knows I’m never talking out of my ass and that I clearly tell when I formulate hypothesis and assumptions. And yes Berbers and Ancient Egyptians are closer to other Africans than to West Eurasians on bipedalism-related morphology. That’s why they are the second best marathoners after East Africans, in place of other highland Caucasoids like the Swiss and the Armenians.
“Suppose I gave you a phylogram for North Africans and they cluster to Eurasians than to SSA, what would you say?”
I’d first ask you which North Africans (Arabs, Jews, Berbers, Egyptians ?) are closer to which Subsaharan Africans and Eurasians and on which traits or genetic markers is this phylogram based on.
“Says race as “we know it” not existing, yet decides to cite among the most notorious racially bias group on the internet”
The studies are not theirs, these are studies that they exploit. And me evoking studies quoted by afrocentrists means nothing about what I think about the validity of race. Your logic, or lack thereof, is weird.
““closer to surrounding african groups but overall closer to eurasians””
Closer on what ? Overall genetics ? No surprise. Doesn’t mean they aren’t more distant on selected phenotypes and genotypes.
And please, avoid links to the retarded Mathilda’s anthropology’s blog after mocking me for mentioning Afrocentrists. This is real irony here lol.
“with the Exceptions of populations in the NE that are linked with Horners, who themselves are mixed as well and Sahelians”
Ahah, but these are two huge exceptions, especially the Sahelians who are a really black type of blacks: tall, dark, slender, gorgeous…
“it’s not that informative on it’s own on genetic relation based on distance.”
It is not what matters to my point.
“Africans even have the “same morphology”. Ectomorphs being more characteristic in East Africa and Mesomorphs more so in West Africa.”
As far as Bipedalism adaptations are concerned, they do have the same morphology. Somatypes are something else, and Most Sahelians look ectomorph to me, mesomorphs might be somewhat common in the Gulf of Guinea and among Bantus. So it’s more a North-South than an East-West difference if there is one.
No offence again Phil78 but I can enjoy discussing with you only if you don’t have me repeating the same things over and over. So if I tell you something once, I won’t tell you twice, you’ll have to make the effort of understanding on your own.
“In fact, to be correct, I should have said we can only compare the endurance of various groups by measuring how long they can run at the same speed in their respective ancestral environment.”
Okay, I agree with this.
“There is a couple of things you’re not getting, Y chromosome haplogroups only mean some people share one common male ancestor. It has nothing to do with overall genetic similarity or race. Most Subsaharan and North Africans (Indigenous Egyptians and Berbers) belong to the same male lineage that appeared either in East Africa or in Arabia which were connected by a landbridge at that time. This common ancestor lived in a hot region, and both North and Subsaharan Africans still live in hot region, so they probably retained the athletic morphology of their common male ancestor (especially since athleticism was mostly selected in men) in spite of evolving differently on other traits and receiving admixture from other populations.”
I understand that, what I don’t agree with is how much you can infer from E alone.
In a recent migration with E you would have a point as that increases the odds of meaningful autosomal DNA contributing to their body morphology, but from ancient population migration that odd decreases.
Furthermore do you have evidence that the overall climate in Arabia stayed the same until 10k when modern N. African ancestors appeared or that population’s body type not being disrupted by the migration of another group?
In either of those cases, the morphology is less ancestral and more converged, hence why I said autosomal support in needed or metrics on body morphology.
“No native Eurasian haplogroup derives from E. E derives from DE, Native Eurasian haplogroups derive from CT, Except D, the brother of E and that is still found in Andamanese, Japanese and other Asians, in low frequency though. Anyway, as I said before, these haplogroups only show common male ancestry, not overall genetic similarity, although a common male ancestor can result in common mutations being passed on in males.”
Yet that’s not why I made the point on Eurasian’s lineage in Africa. The point is that, with E alone in a modern Eurasian population, that’s the most certain thing you can infer.
As I said before, if it was recent then it would be more indicative of morphological links, but a halpogroup could still remain the same despite major changes in autosomal profile especially in an ancient migration.
Further more if that E variant mutated in Eurasia, which would explain why it isn’t seen often in other African populations, that would then make it a Eurasian marker as well even if it didn’t spawn future ones.
“Current day races did not exist for most of our evolutionary history (past tense buddy). There is nothing more I have to explain, the climate was different, so were the selective pressures our phenotypes had to adapt to.
I’m not talking about overall genetics, I’m talking about one fucking haplogroup that denotes common male ancestry. If you can’t get the distinction, I cant help you my friend.”
Define “back then”. That argument has different power at 70k vs. 10k., the later date being the population of modern north africans.
And if you can’t understand my point on the indicative power of E in the context of an ancient migration without other DNA information, then I can’t help you.
“In morphology, as far as bipedalism is concerned, they kept the hot climate pelvic anatomy and limbs/torso ratio that makes them more similar to West Africans than to Swedes. I’m just talking about these two traits.”
Again, I would like to see metric supporting that on a population level. Also, why not be more comprehensive and include West Eurasian populations adapted to heat as well?
For instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_year_rankings
I could argue that, along with the two moroccan record Holders, you have Med types from Portugal, Mexico, and Spain, the portuguese one actually having a higher record than either Moroccan holders.
“There is no irony, there is only you not understanding me. No, I don’t provide source because I don’t have time, but you can also search yourself, everybody on here knows I’m never talking out of my ass and that I clearly tell when I formulate hypothesis and assumptions.”
Well, I’m sorry, but I DON’T know you as well as everyone else. Even if I did, I would still want a source.
If you can’t find one at the moment, I understand and accept either a recommendation or a possible source to look at. You did that latter, and I explained issues with that.
“And yes Berbers and Ancient Egyptians are closer to other Africans than to West Eurasians on bipedalism-related morphology. That’s why they are the second best marathoners after East Africans, in place of other highland Caucasoids like the Swiss and the Armenians.”
Yet I still want evidence that it IS bipedal morphology that explains it. There is evidence with Egyptians, but what about Algerians and Moroccans?
“I’d first ask you which North Africans (Arabs, Jews, Berbers, Egyptians ?) are closer to which Subsaharan Africans and Eurasians and on which traits or genetic markers is this phylogram based on.”
I’ve already given evidence of morphological relations on Berbers, like the two nationalities I gave previously, with other Med. populations through ancient population migrations and distinguishing ones with significant east African ancestry like ancient egyptians.
“The studies are not theirs, these are studies that they exploit. And me evoking studies quoted by afrocentrists means nothing about what I think about the validity of race. Your logic, or lack thereof, is weird.”
What is actually weird is how you, nonetheless, use that logic to refute my evidence from Mathilda’s blog.
Also I’ve explained why using them as a source on Modern North Africans hurts your case, so they would mainly focus on ancient populations for data rather than modern so that doesn’t help the matter as they wouldn’t have relevant data.
“Closer on what ? Overall genetics ? No surprise. Doesn’t mean they aren’t more distant on selected phenotypes and genotypes.”
See my point on their morphology Mathilda.
“And please, avoid links to the retarded Mathilda’s anthropology’s blog after mocking me for mentioning Afrocentrists. This is real irony here lol.”
Really? Explain.
“with the Exceptions of populations in the NE that are linked with Horners, who themselves are mixed as well and Sahelians”
“Ahah, but these are two huge exceptions, especially the Sahelians who are a really black type of blacks: tall, dark, slender, gorgeous…”
Wow….So Sahelians are just one type of people? I meant to refer to all type of Mande, Chadic, and Fulani people where “tall and dark and slender” are not all going to apply to the same extent.
That would be better described for Nilotics in general. Oh, and “gorgeous”? Way to reveal your romanticsm.
“It is not what matters to my point.”
That includes morphological relations, which is why we need autosomal data to confirm.
“As far as Bipedalism adaptations are concerned, they do have the same morphology. Somatypes are something else, and Most Sahelians look ectomorph to me, mesomorphs might be somewhat common in the Gulf of Guinea and among Bantus. So it’s more a North-South than an East-West difference if there is one.”
Just because you have overlap doesn’t mean that East Versus West doesn’t have a overall difference.
To Afro sapiens,
On my Marathon running Data I made errors, I forgot to include a moroccan American record and how that is actually the same person for the other two thus having similar repetition of that of East Africans than West Eurasians.
Furthemore I confused the year dates with their times, however one of the portuagal records overlaps within the Moroccan record intervals
However, this draws attention to a problem, you keep on centering it back to West Africans in terms of body proportions for bipedalism rather than East Africans, which makes more sense in the context of Human evolution.
I agree with your point of body morphology given them the edge against other large lung populations in Marathon running, but you using Jamaicans for example to compare with Ethiopian runners gives a sense of using West Africans as a “basal” type when, if anything, they are an off shoot with from East Africa with higher records for sprinting.
Another condition on morphology, in the case of North Africans is whether or note the trait in ancestral from Africans or converged.
Few ways to determine it could be if it were intermediate for example, that would imply that they original didn’t have that form.
For Nubia and Egypt that seems to be the case despite east African heritage on Maximum Femur and Tibia length used to see major differences.
Click to access 9492.full.pdf
I would expect averages being used, but the study explained that that statistic doesn’t reflect the true magnitude of the differences in morphology.
If it was ancestral and North Africans were allegedly still similar to Sub Saharans coming back, you would expect closer values to other African populations but they are closer to European in FML and more intermediate in TML but still closer to Europeans.
In Biiliac Breadth (pelvis) they are intermediate between the two groups (europeans and other sub-saharans), but if you look at West Africa compared to Egypt and Europe it’s even further, Uganda being closer indicating a nilotic association which is consistent with the genetic make-up of those countries.
Now, granted, Both Egypt and Nubia are mixed in East African Ancestry so it doesn’t exactly suffice for numbers on Berbers and even suggests an ancestral component to their morphological positions of Biiliac Breadth and TML.
But if anything, given that they share a closer environment and genetic similarity with east Africans you would then expect Berbers, who retain more of the Caspian heritage, to be even further.
It also includes directional selection measurement on traits, and on each traits should significant selection deviating from Sub-Saharan measurements.
It DOES show that North Africans are the closest to Sub Saharans in comparison, just not closer than to other populations.
Afro
“kind of a blow to to your hypothesis that humans had to be smart enough to compete with Neanderthals. There is nothing like that, they won with their women’s wombs, not their men’s spears.”
Oh god no. Neanderthals were the Apex predators of europe, surviving multiple climatic shifts, creating complex structures and art. Yet for some reason right when we enter europe, they vanish in 20,000 years.
Admixture or displacement is erroneous because interbreeding was very rare, at least rare compared to how you’re thinking it went. Even before Europe we were technologically more advanced(only slightly) once we reached Europe, they stole our technology.
“Neanderthal DNA is still being selected against.”
? That proves my point lol. Only beneficial mutations will be spared.
“Neanderthal admixture was only an evolutionary shortcut for the evolution of light skin (Who said light skin was a “progressive” trait?)”
There was more than skin pigmentation. Also Whether it’s progressive is irrelevant, light skin is more beneficial in higher latitudes.
“Lmao, that is not a good proxy at all.”
Seriously? Think about that for a moment. Strength, speed, reflexes, etc. Not a good proxy? Are you out of your mind?
“No it didn’t. First of all the neotenization of cro magnon man was not because of a reduction in testosterone. It was because of further sexual selection for more neuroplasiticty and to keep our globular skull as it enlarged. Our testosterone increased and so did the progressive features on our faces. If what you said was true it would contradict your whole post.”
No it wouldn’t. I’ve written two pieces on testosterone the past two weeks. Clearly, there was some reduction in our testoserone in the pleistocene. We can see this by measuring skulls from us from about 26kya and other hominins alive 200 kya. Some parts of the skull are smaller. Changes in craniofacial morphology show this. We have a softer, rounder face in comparison to our ancestors. But they can’t say whether or not it was a decrease in total testosterone or just a decrease in androgens.
Click to access Cieri%20et%20al.%20-%202014%20-%20Craniofacial%20Feminization,%20Social%20Tolerance,%20and%20the%20Origins%20of%20Behavioral%20Modernity.pdf
Our test decreased and our face got softer/smaller over time. Paper is above along with critiques to it. There is clearly a level of testosterone that’s ‘just right’ in terms of civilization-building. Too low and what you see around you today occurs.
“The smart person. Then again, it depends on what kind of scenario we’re talking. In a zombie apocalypse, Machoism will get you killed. If an infectious disease started to wipe out humanity, Africans would be the most likely to survive, and they are neither the smartest or the most athletic. In a nuclear holocaust only rich schizos would be left.”
A shit-hits-the-fan scenario. Power grid out, no electricity, no nothing. We get thrown back 50ky into the past in the blink of an eye. I’m talking every single piece of technology we have is gone. Meaning, the rich don’t get to keep their toys and everyone starts from square one—the same square as everyone else. Who would come out victorious? That’s a real scenario for you, not any scenario where there is still some semblance of civilization. I’m talking everything you know is obliterated.
Your reflex says ‘the smart person’, but do you really believe that? I beg to differ.
How many ‘nerds’ do you think go to the gym? You really need to think about a whole slew of factors here. I think you’re horribly wrong. Maybe I’m wrong, who knows. I know I can make educated guesses based off of some inferences, though. And how I envision the scenario in my head, non-nerds would come out on top. It’s just logical to think that. Higher test, higher fitness, etc. Such a hard answer…
“Hunting isn’t restricted to only persistence hunting. Hand eye coordination, and intelligence would be the most valuable asset, athleticism is correlated but not really necessary. Especially with long range weapons.”
Dude. Without our morphology our intelligence would be a non-factor. How well would it work if we were dolphins—same bodies as them? Not at all. You can’t take away athleticism because it’s ‘not really necessary’ (unless I misunderstood you there?).
Is hand-eye-coordination not correlated with athleticism?
I know that persistence hunting isn’t the only form of hunting, point is, the average nerd would get eaten alive in a shit-hits-the-fan scenario. Why this discussion is being had is mind boggling, to be honest.
To be sure that we’re on the same page, are we both using the same definition of the word ‘nerd’? I’m using the stereotypic definition. Which are you using?
“Which statement?”
South Asians have more sex. Are you guessing since Japan’s birth rates are low?
“I thought the link was saying that east asians simply absorbed less testosterone.Not that they had less?”
Aaaaaaaaaand another study PROVES. ME. RIGHT. on the black-white ‘T gap’:
After adjustment for age and BMI, total testosterone was higher in blacks (0.21 ng/ml; P = 0.028) than whites, an approximately 3% difference.
^^^^^ @PumpkinPerson
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376505
Anyway, it’s been proposed that observed that men with lower levels of androgens had lower risk of prostate cancer compared to men with high levels. However, as I showed, it mostly reflects differences in obesity between populations.
“Don’t know why. The Marathon runners In japan that outperformed kenyans were college students, that’s why it was significant. They have the least sex.”
What Japanese marathon runners outperformed Kenyans? Source? Does that really mean anything? Is fertility based on one variable and one variable only?
“Just like they’re more attracted to big dicks, good looks, humorous personalities, and money. Simply one correlation that is in no way absolute.”
Who’s more likely to have these traits? Athletes?
“Exactly and that expertise is not limited to athleticism as a way to gain status.”
It pretty much largely is. People become experts, say at acting. They got their status due to acting, their expertise. They stay on top due to their expertise.
“You were talking about genetic fitness. High intelligence is a sign of such beneficial characteristics.”
Right. But I didn’t bring up intelligence. I’m bored with intelligence/IQ talk. There is more to HBD than IQ differences.
I’ll say it again so everyone can hear me.
THERE IS MORE TO HBD THAN IQ DIFFERENCES!
“I don’t think humans should look any particular way. But i do want to know why they look the way they do and why they don’t look like something else.”
I told you my thoughts on why I think we have hair on our heads.
“Think about that for a moment. Strength, speed, reflexes, etc. Not a good proxy? Are you out of your mind?”
So you think strength, speed, and reflexes are all that you need when hunting?
“Changes in craniofacial morphology show this. We have a softer, rounder face in comparison to our ancestors.”
You are speculating drops in testosterone based on facial features with no real observational connection. Neanderthals have less neotenous features but also less testosterone, these archaic features persisted to accommodate neanderthal’s elongating skull. The opposite happened with homo sapien who’s smooshed face allowed to them to retain a globular skull which provides more efficient neural connections. Why would the most Neotenous, most civilized, and most domesticated race also produce the most testosterone?
“Your reflex says ‘the smart person’, but do you really believe that? I beg to differ.
How many ‘nerds’ do you think go to the gym? Why this discussion is being had is mind boggling, to be honest. To be sure that we’re on the same page, are we both using the same definition of the word ‘nerd’? I’m using the stereotypic definition. ”
The issue is that you conflate “nerd” with a “smart person”. Which I said at the beginning is why I don’t really care for this ideological conflict. By nerd I mean a smart but physically weak individual which is what I assume you meant, because that’s why I am using that definition.
If presented with the dichotomy of a dumb, athletic jock vs a smart weak nerd, then any sensible person is going to pick the “nerd”. What happens when civilization fails? You rebuild it. What happened when we didn’t have electricity? Somebody made it. The same will happen again. Take the video game nerd for example, constantly refining hand eye coordination reflexes, problem solving ability etc etc, while never having to break a sweat. The nerd will simply figure out how do conduct electricity and use it as generator, the nerds would be able to create the best tools and longer range weapons where they wont even have to be physically fit. When is being strong and fast useful? close combat, and persistence hunting and attracting the opposite sex. The last one is the only real major need, but obviously you can still be small and weak but have high testosterone and athletic ability which supposedly is something women like. I’m starting to doubt this severely.
“How well would it work if we were dolphins—same bodies as them? Not at all”
It’d work if we were giant land octopuses. By unnecessary I mean in regards to tool making ability and hunting. I’m not saying we don’t need bipedalism. “nerds” are still bipedal.
“Aaaaaaaaaand another study PROVES. ME. RIGHT. on the black-white ‘T gap’:”
What’s going on? What did I just do?
“South Asians have more sex. Are you guessing since Japan’s birth rates are low?”
No I mean your link that said East asians had higher T than Europeans and Africans also said South asians have higher T than East asians.
“What Japanese marathon runners outperformed Kenyans? Source? Does that really mean anything”
Sorry it said that a famous kenyan marathon runner was stating if japanese competed more globally that they could outperform because within their won countries college students complete more marathons annually then do european and kenayn countries or something like that.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/why-japans-incredible-long-distance-runners-will-never-win-the-london-marathon-10182050.html
“Athletes?”
Not if you consider east asians the best athletes. Except maybe money.
“It pretty much largely is. People become experts, say at acting. ”
Huh? I literally just said that athleticism isn’t the only way to gain status?
“Right. But I didn’t bring up intelligence. I’m bored with intelligence/IQ talk. There is more to HBD than IQ differences.”
You said in you original post that bipedalism released constraints on brain growth, I was just pointing out that fur loss from parasite control does the same thing. Sorry to offend you.
“So you think strength, speed, and reflexes are all that you need when hunting?”
No, obviously not. Do you think that intelligence is all you need while hunting? Clearly, no. It’s a mixture of different variables. The strongest, fastest person with the best reflexes has a way better chance of surviving, however, compared to his bandmate who has half his strength, speed, and reflexes but double his intellect. Would you agree there?
“You are speculating drops in testosterone based on facial features with no real observational connection. Neanderthals have less neotenous features but also less testosterone, these archaic features persisted to accommodate neanderthal’s elongating skull. The opposite happened with homo sapien who’s smooshed face allowed to them to retain a globular skull which provides more efficient neural connections. Why would the most Neotenous, most civilized, and most domesticated race also produce the most testosterone?”
The fossil evidence reflects out face becoming more feminized between the Middle Stone Age and Mid-Pleistocene/Upper Paleolithic. They give a solid hypothesis on behavioral modernity, social cohesion and why we look drastically different in craniofacial morphology than our ancestors. Check out figure 5 on page 431.
Source for Neanderthal testosterone?
Most civilized, most domesticated race=??? Europeans? East Asians? Homo sapiens sapiens? Looking at our faces and our ancestors we can infer that T levels dropped. Certain parts of the skull and face have more androgen receptors. For instance, this is how you can tell someone juices. Look at their brow, jaw, and shoulders. MOSTLY their shoulders. There are more androgen receptors on the shoulders so that’s where a lot of the growth occurs when one uses PEDs.
Take this logic and use it for us. Further, young boys who have delayed puberty, when administered exogenous testosterone, upper and total face height increases as well as the mandible and total length. What’s that mean?
“The issue is that you conflate “nerd” with a “smart person”. Which I said at the beginning is why I don’t really care for this ideological conflict. By nerd I mean a smart but physically weak individual which is what I assume you meant, because that’s why I am using that definition.”
OK good. We are using the same definition.
“If presented with the dichotomy of a dumb, athletic jock vs a smart weak nerd, then any sensible person is going to pick the “nerd”.”
Law and order breaks down. Every man for themselves. You still think a physically weak person would win out? You’re crazy! Put it like this. Nerds, more often than not (if they’re not fat) are skinny fat. What kind of fitness does a physically weak person have? NONE! We can argue ‘what ifs’ all day. I do have a feeling we will see what would happen in such a scenario in my lifetime in America (yes I am serious).
“Take the video game nerd for example, constantly refining hand eye coordination reflexes, problem solving ability etc etc, while never having to break a sweat. The nerd will simply figure out how do conduct electricity and use it as generator, the nerds would be able to create the best tools and longer range weapons where they wont even have to be physically fit.”
….
What kind of endurance would these nerds have to use these hand-made weapons? Endurance matters tons, and some computer geek doesn’t have it (on average, of course).
“When is being strong and fast useful? close combat, and persistence hunting and attracting the opposite sex. The last one is the only real major need, but obviously you can still be small and weak but have high testosterone and athletic ability which supposedly is something women like. I’m starting to doubt this severely.”
Anything you can think of, there are some women out there that like it (most likely . . .). Some women like B, does that mean that most women don’t like A?
You’re starting to doubt women liking small and weak people with high test and athletic ability? That doesn’t even really compute to me.
“It’d work if we were giant land octopuses. By unnecessary I mean in regards to tool making ability and hunting. I’m not saying we don’t need bipedalism. “nerds” are still bipedal.”
You can think of an octopus example. Anything else? You also have to think about this: what we have and what we’ve done is because we are primates. If we were anything else—say, we shared a common ancestor with a bird some 8 mya—sure we’d still be pretty smart (re: Herculano-Houzel’s study on corvid intelligence/neuronal count), but nothing like we are today! Everything you see around you is because we are primates.
Rewind the tape of life, human would NOT rise again.
Honestly, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head at the moment is an octopus-like body would be good. Anything else?
Yea nerds are still bipedal, yet physically weaker than, say, one who lifts.
“What’s going on? What did I just do?”
The CARDIA study I cited showed that when controlled for age and BMI, blacks only had 3 percent more testosterone than whites. That was to PumpkinPerson.
Hopefully that Rushton myth can finally be put to bed.
“No I mean your link that said East asians had higher T than Europeans and Africans also said South asians have higher T than East asians.”
South Asians? Indians are South Asian. Their population is pretty big . . .
Anyway, testosterone isn’t the be-all-end-all on sexual functioning.
“Sorry it said that a famous kenyan marathon runner was stating if japanese competed more globally that they could outperform because within their won countries college students complete more marathons annually then do european and kenayn countries or something like that.”
The famous Kenyan marathoner clearly doesn’t understand morphology.
“Not if you consider east asians the best athletes. Except maybe money.”
I said who is more likely to have these (all of these) traits?
Let’s stay in the American context. Is an East Asian more likely to have the aforementioned traits I brought up? An African-American? A European? A Native American?
“Huh? I literally just said that athleticism isn’t the only way to gain status?”
Whoops. Misread you there.
“You said in you original post that bipedalism released constraints on brain growth, I was just pointing out that fur loss from parasite control does the same thing. Sorry to offend you.”
No worries you didn’t offend me. I’m just sick of talking about IQ/intelligence all the time. It gets old (which is why I’ve branched out to what I’ve branched out to now).
Yea that’s interesting. We will never know how/why we lost our fur though. All we can do is infer.
“The strongest, fastest person with the best reflexes has a way better chance of surviving, however, compared to his bandmate who has half his strength, speed, and reflexes but double his intellect.”
I think someone with average physical ability but above average intelligence is better off than someone with above average physical ability and only average intelligence.
“Looking at our faces and our ancestors we can infer that T levels dropped. Certain parts of the skull and face have more androgen receptors.”
Im not saying that testosterone does induce exaggerated facial features im just saying that a lack of it didn’t cause the neoteny we see. Neoteny has been slowly increasing since the Australopithecus but according to you T has alsobeen increasing.
Even one of your links says:
“The part of the brain that increased in Australopithecus reduced growth of front teeth. These are increases mainly in the posterior parts of the brain. Posterior growth of the brain retards growth of anterior teeth because they occur concurrently. Many hominids exhibit increased posterior brain size and reduced anterior teeth. The increase in brain growth of Homo sapiens includes the posterior and the anterior parts of the cerebrum. Therefore, in Homo sapiens, both the anterior and posterior teeth compete for DHEA during times of brain growth. This is why the entire dentition is reduced in Homo sapiens.”
http://anthropogeny.com/Androgens%20in%20Human%20Evolution.htm
“Most civilized, most domesticated race=???”
East asians. South asians are even less neotenous than Europeans or east asians and have more T yet they developed civilization before either.
“What kind of fitness does a physically weak person have? NONE! ”
Lol what do you have a bias against skinny people?
“What kind of endurance would these nerds have to use these hand-made weapons? ”
Barely any. You don’t need endurance to shoot a gun or a bow or to lay traps or to figure out how to create energy.
“That doesn’t even really compute to me.”
How? East asians are athletic and and high T yet me and you both know the asian girl wants the white guy. He’s taller, and more exotic looking.
“we shared a common ancestor with a bird some 8 mya—sure we’d still be pretty smart (re: Herculano-Houzel’s study on corvid intelligence/neuronal count)”
Do corvids or primates have higher neuronal density?
“I can think of off the top of my head at the moment is an octopus-like body would be good. Anything else?”
I think it’s hard to come up with further examples because we already know octopuses exist. Maybe something with hive mind intelligence? Don’t want to get too crazy.
“blacks only had 3 percent more testosterone than whites.”
I thought blacks had less T?
“I said who is more likely to have these (all of these) traits?”
I have no Idea.
“Is an East Asian more likely to have the aforementioned traits I brought up? An African-American? A European? A Native American?”
The European, but that’s taking dicks, brains and money into consideration.
“Yea that’s interesting. We will never know how/why we lost our fur though. All we can do is infer.”
Lets clone a neanderthal and raise it together. I’m ready.
To RR:
Ochieng definately is a a Nilotic name, but I’m not sure about Njeru Karukenya (I’m guessing Bantu but I could be wrong)
To Jm8
I’m indecisive on this one. Ochieng doesn’t sound typically Bantu, but it doesn’t sound like a highlander Nilotic name either. Ochieng might be a Luo name, even though they these Nilotics tend to have Bantu sounding names like Obama, The Luo are lowlanders anyway and are barely distinguishable from the Bantus phenotypically. Another hypothesis is that Ochieng is Bantu, from a ethnicity who’s language is phonetically outlying like French among Latin languages.
Karukenya is Kikuyu (Bantu) no doubt about that.
Phil78
“I understand that, what I don’t agree with is how much you can infer from E alone.
In a recent migration with E you would have a point as that increases the odds of meaningful autosomal DNA contributing to their body morphology, but from ancient population migration that odd decreases.”
Yes, but there is something few people know. The Sahara only desertified about 5000 years ago. It means there was no North-African/Subsaharan distinction for most of the holocene. West African’s ancestors lived in the wet Sahara and moved south as it went dry. West Africans also carry ancient Eurasian haplogroups like R1b and T. To be clear, West African also include the Bantus of the East coast like the Swahili, the Zulu, and Wanyamwezi, they all come from West Africa with varying Pygmy, Khoisan, Nilotic and Cushitic admixture. So, West Africans and North Africans probably did not split that so long ago.
Africa during the Neolithic subpluvial.
“Yet that’s not why I made the point on Eurasian’s lineage in Africa. The point is that, with E alone in a modern Eurasian population, that’s the most certain thing you can infer.”
E is rare in Eurasia with the exception of Greece and Yemen which have ancient connections with Africa. And modern day north Africans strongly influenced by the Arabian J haplogroup, but pockets of ancient E remain among Berbers, some Egyptians and Nubians.
“There is evidence with Egyptians, but what about Algerians and Moroccans?”
There is evidence with Ancient Egyptians, and since Berbers are along with Nubians the most closely related to Ancient Egyptians, I infer that their morphology is closer. This, in addition to being highlanders probably gives them an edge in marathon.
“Also, why not be more comprehensive and include West Eurasian populations adapted to heat as well?”
Why not, the problem is I don’t know shit on middle eastern genetics or morphology and there are no highlanders to compare to Maghrebi and Rift Valley people.
“Well, I’m sorry, but I DON’T know you as well as everyone else. Even if I did, I would still want a source.”
Then find it yourself, I don’t have the time.
You quoted only one marathoner list, look at those who won Berlin, Boston, New York or London marathons. I also see some Black South Africans winning marathons now and then, maybe they’re from the Drakensberg highlands. You should also notice that East African domination in Marathon is very recent, and that participation in sports championships does not exactly a country’s potential. See the French, we might be as good hockey players as our cousins in Quebec, but we like soccer, it’s like that, and we are not so magical in soccer without our Africans.
“What is actually weird is how you, nonetheless, use that logic to refute my evidence from Mathilda’s blog.”
I did not refute anything, I just showed how absurd your thinking process is. See, I’m a lawyer, I’m playing fair on here, if I want to create artificial confusion to deceive you, just ask, that’s how I make ends meet. Then, Mathilda is just a blogger, she has no authority whatsoever, I can’t accept a post of hers or Jayman’s of HBD chick’s or my boy RR’s as a source.
“Really? Explain.”
No, think harder.
“Wow….So Sahelians are just one type of people? I meant to refer to all type of Mande, Chadic, and Fulani people where “tall and dark and slender” are not all going to apply to the same extent.
That would be better described for Nilotics in general. Oh, and “gorgeous”? Way to reveal your romanticsm.”
You’re confused little buddy, The Mande are not Sahelians, Manden is not in the Sahel to begin with, it’s in the West African middle belt, the Sahel doesn’t start 200km north of Lagos or Abidjan…
On the Fulani, there are two types of Fulani, the Red Fulani, like the Caucasoid Wodaabe, who are pastoralists and would be better described as Saharans than proper Sahelians. And there are the Black Fulani, the empire builders of Tekrur, Maasina, Adamawa, Sokoto… They are true Sahelians, related to the Wolof, Soninke, Songhai, Kanuri/Kanembu (Nilotics) as well as the Hausa (Chadics)
And yes, gorgeous is inappropriate here, I was thinking of my Senegalese ex-girlfriend as well as one of my brothers in law. But yes, Sahelians are gorgeous by the standards of the modelling industry, other west Africans too, but Sahelians are clearly ubermeschen in that respect. Long legs, narrow hips, short torsos, bipedal morphology on fleek.
“Just because you have overlap doesn’t mean that East Versus West doesn’t have a overall difference.”
The differences between east and west Africa are mostly due to altitude, Semitic influence is strong in Ethiopia and Eritrea. For the rest, nilotic, bantu, berber, west african… are linguistic labels before anything else.
I don’t need to respond to your second comment. It has to be rephrased anyway, always keep in mind that you are not writing to yourself and that you have to be understood by others.
To MeLo
Your own source says evolution is tryna get rid of Neanderthal DNA by genetically impoverishing the regions inherited from ‘thals, there is no such thing as evolution trying to keep the best of it. No, it’s all being tossed in the trash. I’m not judging you, I am engaged to a ‘thal descendant, I might even partly be one myself.
According to a source I read yesterday and that you’re gonna find yourself if you do not trust me, Neanderthal had a very high rate of sterility, so even if sexual intercourse was common between the two species, homo sapiens would always have had more offsprings. Worse yet, Sapiens women would have distracted ‘thal guys from their sistas, further lowering their population growth.
And I don’t care that your ancestors were apex predator in Europe, what matters is that we were objectively superior to them in Africa and that we quickly outnumbered them, if there was any meaningful competition, it was Sapiens-Sapiens, not 9 sapiens vs. 1 lame ‘thal. And I’ll need sauce on Neanderthals using our technology, I can’t find it myself. Do what I say, not what I do. Sorry.
On the progressiveness on skin color, yes this is irrelevant, I was mocking peepee.
Here’s an other map of Africa during the subpluvial.
We can still appreciate Saharan rock art from that period
“Yes, but there is something few people know. The Sahara only desertified about 5000 years ago. It means there was no North-African/Subsaharan distinction for most of the holocene. West African’s ancestors lived in the wet Sahara and moved south as it went dry. West Africans also carry ancient Eurasian haplogroups like R1b and T. To be clear, West African also include the Bantus of the East coast like the Swahili, the Zulu, and Wanyamwezi, they all come from West Africa with varying Pygmy, Khoisan, Nilotic and Cushitic admixture. So, West Africans and North Africans probably did not split that so long ago.”
No, what the just means was that there was no geographic barriers to prevent gene flow, that doesn’t take into account of major migrations from other areas and replacement.
And those West Africans who do are Chadic speakers are the ones that have it, which proves my point on Haplogroup versus autosomal dna.
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/afro-asiatic-and-eurasian-backflow/
Compared to the frequency in males of those populations, the autosomal legacy that would be relevant to phenotype is only about 1%, at only a fraction of the time that the E variant would’ve been carried by North Africans and other Eurasians who they happen to share lineages with.
“E is rare in Eurasia with the exception of Greece and Yemen which have ancient connections with Africa. And modern day north Africans strongly influenced by the Arabian J haplogroup, but pockets of ancient E remain among Berbers, some Egyptians and Nubians.”
But that is irrelavant as the E variant is nonetheless more common among other Eurasians and is explained with their roots in Africa, thus logically making them closer by sex lineages to other Eurasians than African populations.
“There is evidence with Ancient Egyptians, and since Berbers are along with Nubians the most closely related to Ancient Egyptians, I infer that their morphology is closer. This, in addition to being highlanders probably gives them an edge in marathon.”
Lets put that relation in context. Berbers are more related due to the Afro-Asiatic migration, their relation with with nubians is even closer due to african admixture they got from that region as well as environmental adaptation.
With those variables considered, your assumption on morphology needs to be checked.
“Why not, the problem is I don’t know shit on middle eastern genetics or morphology and there are no highlanders to compare to Maghrebi and Rift Valley people.”
You see, that’s obviously a major problem in this discussion.
“Then find it yourself, I don’t have the time.”
I have, and I don’t buy that bullshit that you couldn’t read my second comment as even minimal effort in interpreting past a few errors in my comment will show you that I outright demonstrated North Africans having a closer morphology to Eurasian on the very body proportions you speculated on.
See the link to prove me otherwise.
“You quoted only one marathoner list, look at those who won Berlin, Boston, New York or London marathons. I also see some Black South Africans winning marathons now and then, maybe they’re from the Drakensberg highlands. You should also notice that East African domination in Marathon is very recent, and that participation in sports championships does not exactly a country’s potential. See the French, we might be as good hockey players as our cousins in Quebec, but we like soccer, it’s like that, and we are not so magical in soccer without our Africans.”
It was the only comparative multinational list I have, and I even acknowledged mistakes I made with that even assuming it was representative. Regardless it would record the top times made each year in the span of decades.
Unless you could recommend a potential, if not certain, source where I could compare ethnic wins on the scale you are talking about, it’s the best one I got that could be in some form representative of abilities.
I also did notice differences in participation and how it was recent, so the furthest I’ve analyzed was a few years prior to notable East African participation and onward.
“I did not refute anything, I just showed how absurd your thinking process is. See, I’m a lawyer, I’m playing fair on here, if I want to create artificial confusion to deceive you, just ask, that’s how I make ends meet. Then, Mathilda is just a blogger, she has no authority whatsoever, I can’t accept a post of hers or Jayman’s of HBD chick’s or my boy RR’s as a source.”
You see, that was my same logic for you telling me to ask overtly biased Afrocentrists yet you told me “look at the sources”. Same logic with Mathilda.
These links have specific passages from studies on the matter.
And some background on the Caspain culture she spoke of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
“No, think harder.”
I recommend you try harder because so far your only argument against Mathilda is not actually pointing out particular bias on her end or misrepresentation of data but only that those are possibilities with her being a blogger.
Nonetheless, hope new my notes regarding sources help.
“You’re confused little buddy, The Mande are not Sahelians, Manden is not in the Sahel to begin with, it’s in the West African middle belt, the Sahel doesn’t start 200km north of Lagos or Abidjan…”
I’m sorry, did you just say that Mande speakers don’t reside in the sahel?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mand%C3%A9_peoples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelian_kingdoms
“On the Fulani, there are two types of Fulani, the Red Fulani, like the Caucasoid Wodaabe, who are pastoralists and would be better described as Saharans than proper Sahelians. And there are the Black Fulani, the empire builders of Tekrur, Maasina, Adamawa, Sokoto… They are true Sahelians, related to the Wolof, Soninke, Songhai, Kanuri/Kanembu (Nilotics) as well as the Hausa (Chadics)”
I believe you are correct on the distinction, old anthropologists distinguished the two on occasion by calling the “Red Fulani” Fulahs (Old variant used by the English I believe) and the “Black” Pulohs, the French term for Fulani.
But my issue is, what makes them “true Sahelians” seeing how the Red also live there as well?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wodaabe
“And yes, gorgeous is inappropriate here, I was thinking of my Senegalese ex-girlfriend as well as one of my brothers in law. But yes, Sahelians are gorgeous by the standards of the modelling industry, other west Africans too, but Sahelians are clearly ubermeschen in that respect. Long legs, narrow hips, short torsos, bipedal morphology on fleek.”
“The differences between east and west Africa are mostly due to altitude, Semitic influence is strong in Ethiopia and Eritrea. For the rest, nilotic, bantu, berber, west african… are linguistic labels before anything else.”
Where to begin? Altitude (a selective pressure from their natural surroundings) and admixture are fairly typical reasons why you would see differences in morphology between populations.
I’m not arguing on what CAUSED differences, which could include more than just provided though I understand you said “mainly”, I reaffirming is that the differences exist period.
The labels themselves maybe linguistic in nature, but that alone doesn’t mask observable and measurable differences they just so happen to have.
“I don’t need to respond to your second comment. It has to be rephrased anyway, always keep in mind that you are not writing to yourself and that you have to be understood by others.
Then I’ll condense it.
1. Though agreeing with the significance of morphology, it’s makes more sense to attribute traits regarding bipedalism to East Africans in terms an attributable reference seeing how they would be the source and even today their closest relatives on the continent.
2.In statistics regarding leg and waist measurements, North Africans (who are could qualify as partially to borderline East African as they were Egyptians and Nubians) are recorded to be at best intermediate between Sub Saharans and Eurasian, though overall closer to Eurasians.
And to prove #1. correct, Of the different Sub-Saharan groups compared West Africans were the furthest in regards to Biiliac breadth.
3. The Data also provided measurements to show the selection distance from Sub Saharan Africans to represent the significance of the morphological deviation on each trait.
While North Africans had the least overall, they were still significantly deviated on the matter of Biiliac Breadth and arm proportions, with their significant overlap was mainly with their legs.
While this indicated them adapting to their surroundings tropically, it doesn’t support it to be ancestral by “West African” Standards, favoring converged evolution.
And clarifying the overlap regarding their legs measurements, it should be again noted that these populations are indeed admixed significantly in autosomal DNA, Nubia showing the greatest overlap.
This suggests people like Berbers would likely not overlap as strong if at all, thus North Africans not likely sharing the same body type as other Africans via ancestry unless admixed.
“No, it’s all being tossed in the trash. ”
Not at all, I literally just showed you the opposite.
“if there was any meaningful competition, it was Sapiens-Sapiens, not 9 sapiens vs. 1 lame ‘thal”
Within species Cooperation would have been preferred in northern latitudes. Disregarding that though, to say neanderthal competition wasn’t much of a factor is kind of ridiculous. Our fellow man would not have been as much of a problem as a species that was already better equipped in knowledge and experience to deal with Ice age eurasia. Secondly while we didn’t breed with “thals” that much, most encounters were probably violent, especially considering that neanderthal males were the ones spitting game to the black girls, do you think a male homo sapiens would of like that? I’m not saying we didn’t compete with our own species, just that the added neanderthal competition contributed to the upper paleolithic technological discrepancies.
“And I don’t care that your ancestors were apex predator in Europe,”
Not to offend but it doesn’t matter if you care or not, If you really think breeding with a cold adapted hominin was not useful when entering a cold environment then I can’t take you seriously.
To AfroSapiens,
Found more data on North African body proportions, they are repeatedly used as a example of middle Latitude people, this/ consistent with my statements on them being closer to Sub Saharans in more respects than Europeans are but not closer to them overall, occupying an intermediate position.
https://books.google.com/books?id=DIEI7S_7KTMC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=North+Africans+limb+to+trunk&source=bl&ots=2bJXikGR1V&sig=5f_3YV0W03DhpzysMVikvzFfRjE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6wo6i0-rSAhUXzGMKHUaUAhYQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=North%20Africans%20limb%20to%20trunk&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/470414/Adult_Proportionality_in_Small-bodied_Foragers_A_test_of_Ecogeographic_Expectations
The one regarding ancient North African samples from google-books provides a scope of how far back the body proportion position persists.
As well, Egyptians as well being are shown to be closer to Meditteraneans than Africans in body breadth, but not in limb proportions with are closer to Africans.
This is attributed by the author to greater liability of limbs to latitude, again supporting a converged hypothesis on their similarities rather than features the had prior to re-entering Africa.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/29562-New-findings-about-Egyptian-body-proportions-Afrocentrism-debunked
Mande (in linguistics/anthropology) is a language family (a very ancient one) with many ethnic groups/branches. At least some Mande speaking peoples, like some subgroups of Soninke/Soninke dialect speakers for instance) live in (parts of) the Sahel (around Northwest Mali and S. W. Mauritania) . “Manden”, refers specifically to the heartland of the Mandinka people (one of many Mande speaking groups). Mande peoples once extended somewhat further north than now, but likely (as Afro said) moved south in the desertification period.
Edit: “…a language family (a very ancient one, within the Niger-Congo family)”
Alright Phil78, let’s make it short and straightforward so that you can understand.
-West Africa’s E lineage originated in the Sahara and moved south as it became dry
-Morphological data you provided is based on modern Egyptians and Nubians who have modern Eurasian admixture. Tells nothing on Berbers and Ancient Egyptians and Nubians
-You don’t know where Manden and the Sahel are so lemme show you some maps.
Manden:
Sahel:
-The French for Fulani is Peul, and occasionally Toucouleur to refer to the people of Tekrur.
-Who are the typical Sahelians ? Who are the typical Nordics ? Who are the typical East Asians ? Go to Senegal or meet a Wolof and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
And finally, you proved nothing at all. You actually made this conversation lose sense. As far as I’m concerned, I still think it’s likely that subsaharan affinities are an contributing factor in the good performance of Moroccans and Algerians.
And one good thing when I talk about Senegalese, Moroccans and Egyptians is that I actually visited their countries and that I know many of them in France. That’s anecdotal but it helps to visualize what you’re talking about.
Please don’t respond, I won’t spend the night on this. I’m not saying your points aren’t valid, but they don’t exclude mine. What’s sure is that you defend them poorly and that your logic is… perfectible… But that’s fine, you’re tenacious, buddy. Not crossing the line of stupid stubbornness like other people do here, keep up..
Oh, let me throw this bone at your feet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_Egypt#Limb_ratios
To AfroSapiens:
The Yellow parts of your map would represent the various Soninke (or northwest Mande) speaking groups, some of which at least live within the south sahel (some Soninke dialects speaking goups also live, as you may know, along the middle Niger near Djenne, etc, like the Bozo and Marka/Maraka.
Most Mande/mande speaking groups though, do not live in the Sahel, but rather in the Savannah.
Wow, Phil did you just say Ancient Egyptians were Eurasians who migrated to Africa to build pyramids? Please steer clear from nordicist crap. Ancient Egyptians were indigenous North-East Africans.
Ancient Egyptians were West Asian ‘Caucasian’. Look up haplotype I2. Further, Egypt traded with Sumeria and Mesopotamia and some scholars argue that they traded people as well.
I searched I2 haplogroups of mtDNA and Y chromosome and none had a significant frequency in Egypt. on the Y chromosome it is actually a Germanic haplogroup, lol, nowhere to be seen in Egypt. Must be nordicist stuff you thought was true.
“The researchers determined that one of the mummified individuals may belong to an ancestral group, or haplogroup, called I2, believed to have originated in Western Asia. They also retrieved genetic material from the pathogens that cause malaria and toxoplasmosis, and from a range of plants that includes fir and pine — both thought to be components of embalming resins — as well as castor, linseed, olive, almond and lotus.”
http://www.nature.com/news/egyptian-mummies-yield-genetic-secrets-1.12793
One mummy. lol ! Of course there might have been Eurasian people comming to Egypt but Egyptian civilization is indigenously north-east African, I’m not saying they were Nigerian, but they were rather Ethiopian than Iraqi.
To MeLo
“Not at all, I literally just showed you the opposite.”
When ?
“to say neanderthal competition wasn’t much of a factor is kind of ridiculous”
How so ? Have you got proof that it represented a challenge to the point that sapiens had to develop new technology or evolve a new anatomy due to Neanderthals ?
“Secondly while we didn’t breed with “thals” that much, most encounters were probably violent,”
The extermination hypothesis has very few supporters, one of your own sources says we just demographically submerged them.
“the upper paleolithic technological discrepancies”
What the heck are you talking ’bout ?
“If you really think breeding with a cold adapted hominin was not useful when entering a cold environment then I can’t take you seriously.”
Hey little man, aren’t you the one who said humans seldom mixed with ‘thals ? If humans had noticed that the hybrids were more vigorous, they would have actively looked for species-mixing.
Neanderthal DNA reduces fitness in humans, this is a fact. Period.
Yep, you’re right Phil, the Soninke indeed are Sahelian and they look Sahelian, many of them are here in France.
Ooops, Jm8, not Phil. Phil doesn’t know the Soninke or he thinks they live in Alaska.
“Alright Phil78, let’s make it short and straightforward so that you can understand.
-West Africa’s E lineage originated in the Sahara and moved south as it became dry.”
To be more precise, it originate in East Africa and there was geneflow with arabian populations and ancient Africans during the intervals of 50-80k
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M96
Again, supporting my previous point on what E actually infers.
“-Morphological data you provided is based on modern Egyptians and Nubians who have modern Eurasian admixture. Tells nothing on Berbers and Ancient Egyptians and Nubians.”
Their eurasian admixture, which I’ve supported with multiple texts, is ancient. And whatever additional geneflow that did occur is irrelevant as the data shows Modern and Ancient Egyptians match on body proportions.
That’s not to speak of the supporting information on ancient Migrations to Africa that I covered already.
For ancient data see my 2nd comment.
“-You don’t know where Manden and the Sahel are so lemme show you some maps.
Manden:
Sahel:”
Did I say MandeN or MandE? Reread what I typed. I referred to the Mande people because they had significant history in the Sahelian population, not that they were originally from the Sahel.
As far as I could find, “Sahelians” referred to people traditionally living on the Sahel, not a particular population of ethnic group.
“-The French for Fulani is Peul, and occasionally Toucouleur to refer to the people of Tekrur.”
Well I guess that “Puloh” is a corruption, I’m just referring to the use by old english ethnogrpahers, not the common use in general.
“Who are the typical Sahelians ? Who are the typical Nordics ? Who are the typical East Asians ? Go to Senegal or meet a Wolof and you’ll see what I’m talking about.”
Difference? Nordics could refer to speakers or people of a particular sub-race. East Asians refer to a section of a entire continent that is interchanged with “Mongloid”, essentially referring to a Macro-Race that doesn’t dominant the continent entirety and is thus distinguished from West Asians.
Sahelians? A bunch of different language groups that only uniform commonality is their Nomadic lifestyle who occupy a narrow stripe of land across the greater width of Africa.
Again, what Makes Black Fulani “True Sahelians” over Red ones?
“And finally, you proved nothing at all. You actually made this conversation lose sense. As far as I’m concerned, I still think it’s likely that subsaharan affinities are an contributing factor in the good performance of Moroccans and Algerians.”
I have proved otherwise with my actual sources on Morphology and the actual genetic implications of That specific E variant.
“And one good thing when I talk about Senegalese, Moroccans and Egyptians is that I actually visited their countries and that I know many of them in France. That’s anecdotal but it helps to visualize what you’re talking about.”
And I actually found relevant Data on their morphology that, despite your misunderstanding DOES support my claims.
“Please don’t respond, I won’t spend the night on this. I’m not saying your points aren’t valid, but they don’t exclude mine.”
They do actually exclude yours regarding the genetic of North Africans, their Morphology, and tends through time
” What’s sure is that you defend them poorly and that your logic is… perfectible… But that’s fine, you’re tenacious, buddy. Not crossing the line of stupid stubbornness like other people do here, keep up.”
Exactly what is wrong with my logic?
The main issue here is that your inferences due to E frequencies in North African populations and what that mean, I explained the context behind not only that particular E but the conditions and limitations of making morphological conclusions on populations.
I even supported one of my points by using your example of R1b.
Then it was down to the morphology of North Africans, who would they be closest two and if they have adaptations similar to Africans was it converged evolution or ancestry?
I used information on their morphological measurements to show that they were either closer to Eurasians or intermediate, and explained how African admixture could even confound the North African sample if we applied the measurements to Berbers even if the similarities were based on shared lineages.
This was then back by data aligning North Africans, ancient ones, intermediate between Europeans and African and Egyptians closest to surrounf Med. populations, limb proportions being a converged development.
This thus implying that prior to re-entering Africa, North African ancestor were different.
As short and comprehensive as it is, any objections?
And let me get you straight, you don’t want ME to comment back to YOU but you can comment to me three times, twice claiming nordicist intentions by supporting a morphological and genetic relation with geographically close Mediterranean people with clear cut Data?
Desperate.
BTW, learn a thing or two on East African Genetics.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/7/2632.abstract
That Link I gave on me debating their origins also conforms with this, showing them to be indeed related to nearby east African but overall closer to Eurasians. The ES user likely didn;t see that part and just saw “African”.
Also you straight up insulted my intelligence (and your’s) saying that I either wasn’t aware of the Soninke or knew where they live despite me clarifying on what I meant on Mande speakers living in the Sahel proving that I do.
That poor attempt at “wit” also shows you insincerity of keeping thing civil in your responses.
Before you give lessons on logic, learn some cues on conduct.
Hey Afro, the perfect thing for you to comprehend on E
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution
Hey Phil, why don’t you discuss it with someone who cares ?
“When ?”
In that pile of links up there.
“Have you got proof that it represented a challenge to the point that sapiens had to develop new technology or evolve a new anatomy due to Neanderthals ?”
The proof is the technological revolution in eurasia around 50,000 years ago. Neanderthals had a sub par level of intellectual achievement compared to cro magnon, yet they thrived in Ice age europe. The efficiency and variability we find among cro magnon tool kits can only be explained by large risk of failure and an increased need for specialized extraction of resources. However if resource allocation in that particular environment was already possible without the need of the Aurignacian culture, then why create it?
Secondly the Chatelperronian culture appears around the time Eurasians entered europe, but the craftsman were neanderthals.It appear even neanderthals were forced to create better technology when we entered the fray.
“one of your own sources says we just demographically submerged them.”
Right and you demographically submerge a population by either two ways, out- competition and admixture, seeing as how admixture was indeed seldom it makes more sense that they were slowly displaced because they failed to adapt properly.
“What the heck are you talking ’bout ?”
Eurasian hunter gatherers 50,000 years ago had more complex technology than africans and Aboriginals from the same time period.
“Hey little man,”
Hey jewlover, my dick is longer than your dolichocephalic head.
“If humans had noticed that the hybrids were more vigorous, they would have actively looked for species-mixing.”
They may not have noticed because it happened so infrequently, all it takes is a little admixture and the genes will become spread throughout the whole population. I mean look how people today don’t even see the correlations of fitness and race.
“One mummy. lol ! Of course there might have been Eurasian people comming to Egypt but Egyptian civilization is indigenously north-east African, I’m not saying they were Nigerian, but they were rather Ethiopian than Iraqi.”
True, but more Iraqi then Nigerian on comparisons with non-neighboring African populations and Eurasians.
Plus I gave genetic data aligning them with Near Eastern Migrations. Was there another population there, yes, but that is also different from West African DNA.
http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html
“Hey Phil, why don’t you discuss it with someone who cares ?”
You obviously cared alot.
Dear MeLo,
“In that pile of links up there.”
Nah, try again little bro.
“The proof is the technological revolution in eurasia around 50,000 years ago.”
Nope, Eurasian sapiens had no more advanced tech than Africans. The paleolithic cultures of Europe are well known due to extensive search, but you couldn’t even find similar cultures in East Asia, never mind Africa where tropical conditions prevent the preservation of artifacts.
” but the craftsman were neanderthals”
Sauce ? I want some hot spicy sauce this time.
“Right and you demographically submerge a population by either two ways, out- competition and admixture, seeing as how admixture was indeed seldom it makes more sense that they were slowly displaced because they failed to adapt properly.”
Admixture left few traces because it was strongly selected against and still is. The low current-day levels are not indicative of how common was sexual intercourse between the two pops was in the past
Out-competition doesn’t have to be voluntary. We are currently out competing many animals without the intent of exterminating them. They aren’t challenging to us either, we just take their resources with no consideration for their lives. That’s probably how we replaced Neanderthals in the absence of signs of extermination.
“Hey jewlover, my dick is longer than your dolichocephalic head.”
Lol, good one, little man.
“They may not have noticed because it happened so infrequently”
You don’t know.
“I mean look how people today don’t even see the correlations of fitness and race.”
We all know who stands the longest under the burning sun and who won’t die from malaria. This is why Brazil was never created as a white man’s country like the US.
Dear Phil78,
“True, but more Iraqi then Nigerian on comparisons with non-neighboring African populations and Eurasians.”
Thank you, I know very well that geographic proximity is the strongest correlate of overall genetic similarity. Tells nothing about race or origin or whatever. What else ?
“You obviously cared a lot.”
Preterit my friend… preterit… You can try to conjugate the verb “To care” in the present tense with other commenters, like meLo or RR, they are smart brown boys like you.
Damn, never meant to write it all in bold. I’m a beginner with html coding. Maybe PP can correct that.
“Thank you, I know very well that geographic proximity is the strongest correlate of overall genetic similarity. Tells nothing about race or origin or whatever. What else ?”
Correlate, not mechanism of why geographic proximity correlates with genetic similarity because it’s a given that they would share autosomal DNA.
Anything else? How about my links on the genetics of the East African Cluster and ancient Eurasian back migrations into East Africa?
“Preterit my friend… preterit… You can try to conjugate the verb “To care” in the present tense with other commenters, like meLo or RR, they are smart brown boys like you.”
The context behind that actually was because we weren’t discussing E directly prior and you were then claiming that you didn’t care about E the moment you commented.
Therefore, I used “cared” to contrast your previous behavior regarding E, implying you cared alot WHEN we were discussing it.
Another desperate ad hominem.
“Nope, Eurasian sapiens had no more advanced tech than Africans.”
Yes they did, it was much more specialized and variable. Africans didn’t create the aurignacian culture or any kind of technological equivalent. Even australian aboriginals didn’t create the woomera until thousands of years eurasians had already invented the atlatl.
“never mind Africa where tropical conditions prevent the preservation of artifacts.”
A lack of evidence isn’t evidence. It’s been proposed that east aisans possibly used bamboo tools and thus didn’t last as long, but then again cro magnon are the ancestors of both europeans and east asians.
“Sauce ? I want some hot spicy sauce this time.”
https://phys.org/news/2012-10-neanderthals-chtelperronian-cultural-diffusion-humans.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2telperronian
http://www.evoanth.net/2016/04/19/neanderthals-stole-human-technology/
“The low current-day levels are not indicative of how common was sexual intercourse between the two pops was in the past
You don’t know.”
Yeah I do.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/neandertal-introgression-and-admixture/#.WNL-nvnyuCg
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/37/15129
“Out-competition doesn’t have to be voluntary. ”
Didn’t say it did.
“Lol, good one, little man.”
Your jewish neanderthal seemed to think I was a pretty “big man”
“We all know who stands the longest under the burning sun and who won’t die from malaria. This is why Brazil was never created as a white man’s country like the US.”
Only in modern day. Some tribes dont even know the connection between sex and pregnancy, you cant expect hominins to suddenly know why they have the features they do. Homo sapien didn’t know neanderthal was cold adapted but the women knew they were better hunters(at least for the time being). This would exasperate competition.
Game Over meLo !
Smoking hot sauce here:
Neandertals are the best-studied of all extinct hominins, with a rich fossil record sampling hundreds of individuals, roughly dating from between 350,000 and 40,000 years ago. Their distinct fossil remains have been retrieved from Portugal in the west to the Altai area in central Asia in the east and from below the waters of the North Sea in the north to a series of caves in Israel in the south. Having thrived in Eurasia for more than 300,000 years, Neandertals vanished from the record around 40,000 years ago, when modern humans entered Europe. Modern humans are usually seen as superior in a wide range of domains, including weaponry and subsistence strategies, which would have led to the demise of Neandertals. This systematic review of the archaeological records of Neandertals and their modern human contemporaries finds no support for such interpretations, as the Neandertal archaeological record is not different enough to explain the demise in terms of inferiority in archaeologically visible domains. Instead, current genetic data suggest that complex processes of interbreeding and assimilation may have been responsible for the disappearance of the specific Neandertal morphology from the fossil record.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096424
“Africans didn’t create the aurignacian culture or any kind of technological equivalent. ”
Neither did the Chinese, actually, there is no homo sapiens paleolithic site older than 20K years ago in China. And there is simply no identified upper paleolithic culture in China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paleolithic_sites_in_China
Your just assuming that what was found in Europe was found in East Asia andnot in Africa. In actuality things were only found in Europe because it was only searched there. And your argumentation is trash.
“Yeah I do.”
No you don’t.
“Your jewish neanderthal seemed to think I was a pretty “big man””
Ahah, she hates Filipino-Denisovans.
“Only in modern day. Some tribes dont even know the connection between sex and pregnancy, you cant expect hominins to suddenly know why they have the features they do. Homo sapien didn’t know neanderthal was cold adapted but the women knew they were better hunters(at least for the time being). This would exasperate competition.”
Blah blah blah, we all notice when the black kid never gets sunburns and the white kid knows when he does, without mamma telling him.
To MeLo:
“Yes they did, it was much more specialized and variable. Africans didn’t create the aurignacian culture or any kind of technological equivalent. Even australian aboriginals didn’t create the woomera until thousands of years eurasians had already invented the atlatl.”
This is not really the case, many equivalent technologies dis develop in those areas (some having had
The basic halmarks of the Aurignacian (or full upper paleolithic package, developed) in Africa at least by 40-50,000 bc.
Border Cave and the beginning of the Later Stone Age in South Africa
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/33/13208.abstract
Many modern behaviors and technologies, characteristic of the late stone age (sometimes broadly similar to the Uluzzian or upper paleolithic prefiguring it, at least in many aspects, though variable through time and region),)—such as bone tools, compound paints microliths, and projectiles appear variously in Africa (though with significant regional diversity), significantly before that,
Projectiles get their start much earlier than the European Aurignacian (though throwing spears and not yet bows—possibly atlatls) occur ca. 270,000 bc Ethiopia (likely associated with some form of early sapiens-transitional sapiens/heidelbergensis)
The bow occurs in S. Africa at least before Euraisia, though likely invented by homo-sapiens more than once, in different places
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0078092
Evidence of arrowheads and adhesives dates at least 60-70,000 in South Africa
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.466.2274&rep=rep1&type=pdf
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/08/26/Oldest-arrowheads-found-in-Africa/95431282863088/
Parts of Mid stone age S. Africa ca 150-70,000 bc made bone tools, shell beads, traded minerals across substantial distances, and made heated fat-based paints from ochre (possibly for rock and/or body painting), seasonal fishing and shellfish, use engraved ornaments, and upper paleolithic-style stone points.—at Blombos, Howiesons Poort, and Pinnacle point
e.g.:the preparation of stone for microliths by precise heat treating to increase its flakeability at pinnacle point SA. from ca 150-70,000 bc.
A Howiesons Poort tradition of engraving ostrich eggshell containers dated to 60,000 years ago at Diepkloof Rock Shelter, South Africa
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/14/6180.full
Bone harpoons from Central Africa, an advanced feature, ca. 90,000 bc., which before its discovery were thought to first appear in the European Aurignacian.
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-katanda-harpoons.html
There is also the ishango bone ca 20,000 bc and Lebombo bone ca 43,00 bc, in the Katanda/Semliki region and Swaziland respectively (both being at the same time as the European early-mid paleolithic).
Re: woomeras: Do we know when it was invented in Australia? I did not think we did, but that there was not strong evidence either way. It seems likely some those groups at least had projectiles (if only the early hand-launched spears desighned for throwing/distance.
But the ancestors of Aborigines,(other Oceanic peoples: Negritos, Andamanese, Papuans) were advanced enough to reach their respective lands accross subtatial water distances. And there is hard evidence of deep sea fishing hook-line (ca. 50,000 bc) by such peoples near N. Australia. The first indonesian cave paintings are 40,000 bc
http://www.livescience.com/17186-oldest-fish-hooks-early-humans.html
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/rockart-ages-indonesian-cave-paintings-are-40000-years-old-180952970/
Edit: “The basic halmarks of the Aurignacian or its approximate equivalent, the (full) LSA/late stone age, developed…”
“Projectiles…occur ca. 270,000 bc Ethiopia at Gademotta….”
Edit: “…but that there was not strong evidence either way. It seems likely some of those groups at least had projectiles (if only the early hand-launched spears desighned for throwing/distance) since such appear earlier in Africa .
“I think someone with average physical ability but above average intelligence is better off than someone with above average physical ability and only average intelligence.”
Then take into account that the average ‘nerd’ (as defined) doesn’t have average physical ability. Then take into account that people who have hormones surging through their bodies get a bit of an extra ‘buzz’ and the stronger/faster/quicker person would thrive. WAIT!! IQ is correlated with reflexes, so they got them beat there! (NOT!)
“Im not saying that testosterone does induce exaggerated facial features im just saying that a lack of it didn’t cause the neoteny we see. Neoteny has been slowly increasing since the Australopithecus but according to you T has alsobeen increasing.”
The authors state in the paper that I provided that this reduction in craniofacial morphology began around 280 kya: “Although fossil samples sizes are small, a temporal trend for brow ridge reduction is apparent from the late Middle Pleistocene
(pre–80 Ka BP) to Late Pleistocene (post–80 Ka BP) samples and continuing to the recent human samples (table 1).” . . . “. . . the temporal trend in facial shape appears to have been one of relatively long faces before 80 Ka BP, followed by relatively shorter faces in the post–80 Ka BP sample, with maintenance of this face shape into the Holocene among foragers, followed by a moderate narrowing and lengthening of the face (and attendant reductions in facial shape index) among Holocene agricultural groups (fig. 3).”
Wow, how could I forget about the Russian silver fox experiment? They bred tamer foxes in a few fox gens, and they had decreased craniofacial morphology as well. Hmmm…
“Even one of your links says:”
Testosterone gets divvied up, what’s the problem? Further, this paper is from 2001 before they put to bed the fact that our increasing brains was the cause of our decreased teeth.
The craniofacial morphology paper is pretty good but due to small sample size I await a more robust study with more skulls.
It seems that civilization pacifies men, I don’t know all of the variables that are involved but I believe that lessened conflict is one reason. Remember that T levels don’t stay constant.
The ‘new explanation of human evolution’ seems just like a book that’s next on my reading list. Check it out, you may like it.
He tweeted at me and follows me on Twitter and reads my blog because he said he’s writing a book on sex differences and wants to see what I have to say on it. Feels good.
Would you say the combination of the Russian fox study with the craniofacial morphology shows some decent evidence of a T reduction in the timeframe established by the authors?
“East asians. South asians are even less neotenous than Europeans or east asians and have more T yet they developed civilization before either.”
Do T levels today correlate with T levels 6kya?
Oh that ‘East Asian “””master race”””‘ garbage. I don’t address these types of contentions.
Care to tell me how ‘civilized’ the Chinese are? Such a lack of empathy. So, so civilized!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue#Accident
Stories like this are not an isolated incident. They occur all the time.
“Lol what do you have a bias against skinny people?”
They’re most likely not fit. Skinny-fats, etc. I doubt a skinny-fat ‘nerd’ has the stamina/endurance to shoot a weapon (that’s not a gun because remember my scenario: ALL technology gets wiped out).
“Barely any. You don’t need endurance to shoot a gun or a bow or to lay traps or to figure out how to create energy.”
. . . Your biases are showing.
1) guns are out in my scenario
2) You need endurance to shoot hand-made things. You need endurance to go looking for tools and materials to make it. Doing this takes . . . stamina! skinny-fats don’t have stamina.
3) laying traps takes stamina. trekking to find the perfect spot to lay a trap expends kcal, etc etc. That’s even MORE strenuous on a person who is not fit!
4) Sure thing, energy.
You need endurance, skinny-fat nerds with no endurance will get eaten alive when shit hits the fan. No stamina, no strength, no speed, no endurance. But they can build things they can barely use and set traps ( that take stamina!) and they can figure out how to create motion (baseless assertion, this is just an assumption)!!
“How? East asians are athletic and and high T yet me and you both know the asian girl wants the white guy. He’s taller, and more exotic looking.”
EAs are NOT more athletic than white guys. I spoke about East Asian male sex woes (but they’re more evolved!!) last month.
Most attractive physique: Mesomorph:
Click to access 10.1023%40a%3A1021889228469.pdf
East Asian? Endo. Whites? Less endo than East Asians but more endo than blacks. Blacks? Mesomorphy.
So you tell me why women go for European men over East Asian ‘athletes’, the ‘superior’ 10 trillion IQ race.
“Do corvids or primates have higher neuronal density?”
Birds have a primate-like number of neurons in their forbrain:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/26/7255.full
They say that avian brains have the potential to have much higher ‘cognitive power’ than primate brains. Hmm
“I think it’s hard to come up with further examples because we already know octopuses exist. Maybe something with hive mind intelligence? Don’t want to get too crazy.”
It’s so hard to think about because we are literally the result of numerous contingincies.
“I thought blacks had less T?”
It varies. But what the variation tells me (either 2.5 to 4.9 percent difference, 3 percent difference, or no difference) is that THERE. IS. NO. B-W. T. GAP!
This Rushton hoo-baloo needs to be put to bed. He was WRONG on testosterone.
“The European, but that’s taking dicks, brains and money into consideration.”
…right. pretty much everything that matters in our modern-day world.
“Lets clone a neanderthal and raise it together. I’m ready.”
I’m good. Not a homo, and I probably won’t have kids.
At katanda, (with the harpoons) the bones of giant catfish (weighing as much as 68 kg /150 lb) were found (among other fish), which would seem to indicate the use of boats/watercraft, especially as as in would be hard to hunt such large fish (which prefer the waters of rivers) wading in or standing by the shallows near the shore.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/268/5210/553
Sorry for the late reply guys.
Jm8
“This is not really the case, many equivalent technologies dis develop in those areas (some having had The basic halmarks of the Aurignacian”
Most of the technological innovations African populations created in the LSA was not on par with Eurasian ones of similar times. You’re right though it would be an exaggeration to say Africans never developed at least some of the upper paleolithic characteristics present. Then again, i’m not arguing behavioral modernity.
African microliths:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3421194/#__sec8title
figure 2.
European microliths
“The bow occurs in S. Africa at least before Euraisia, though likely invented by homo-sapiens more than once, in different places”
I don’t think there is any real evidence for an actual bow in Africa? I thought there were only “arrowheads”?
It is possible they were hafted on spear handles and thrown, but they do bear strikingly similar aesthetics with bushman arrowheads.
“and made heated fat-based paints from ochre (possibly for rock and/or body painting), seasonal fishing and shellfish, use engraved ornaments,”
Aurignacian art is superior. Though I was specifically talking about toolsets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian#Art
“A Howiesons Poort tradition of engraving ostrich eggshell containers dated to ”
That isn’t that impressive. Also, water probably wouldn’t be as much as a problem in ice age europe.
“Bone harpoons from Central Africa, an advanced feature, ca. 90,000 bc., which before its discovery were thought to first appear in the European Aurignacian.”
These harpoons, are much more efficient looking, so do the magdelenian ones.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/06/27/oldest-bone-tools-outside-africa-discovered-china/
‘woomeras: Do we know when it was invented in Australia?”
That’s just what I saw on wikipedia a while back.
Afro
“Neither did the Chinese, actually, there is no homo sapiens paleolithic site older than 20K years ago in China. And there is simply no identified upper paleolithic culture in China.”
That’s not true.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/06/27/oldest-bone-tools-outside-africa-discovered-china/
“Your just assuming that what was found in Europe was found in East Asia andnot in Africa. ”
No I’m assuming they had similar cognitive profiles. They both “diverge” from cro magnon and had similar levels of technology. You’re just being purposefully ignorant.
“A mitochondrial DNA sequence of two Cro-Magnons from the Paglicci Cave, Italy, dated to 23,000 and 24,000 years old (Paglicci 52 and 12), identified the mtDNA as haplogroup N, typical of the descendants in Central Asia. The inland group is the founder of North and East Asians, Europeans, large sections of the Middle East, and North African populations. ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon
“as the Neandertal archaeological record is not different enough to explain the demise in terms of inferiority in archaeologically visible domains. Instead, current genetic data suggest that complex processes of interbreeding and assimilation may have been responsible for the ”
Jesus, you’re fucking stupid. neanderthals had inferior technology, we outcompeted them we did not genetically submerge them I literally just showed you genetic evidence of this. Interbreeding was not frequent enough.
They literally just compared technology and then just assume that it wasn’t enough to cause neanderthal demise which was a completely unfounded conclusion.
RR
“The authors state in the paper that I provided that this reduction in craniofacial morphology began around 280 kya:”
Lol they’re wrong. It doesn’t even matter though, you still said T has been rising.
“Testosterone gets divvied up, what’s the problem? ”
The issue is that low T isn’t always associated with neotenous features.
“Do T levels today correlate with T levels 6kya? Care to tell me how ‘civilized’ the Chinese are? Such a lack of empathy. So, so civilized!”
You are changing goal posts and cherrypicking
“1) guns are out in my scenario
2) You need endurance to shoot hand-made things. You need endurance to go looking for tools and materials to make it. Doing this takes . . . stamina! skinny-fats don’t have stamina.
3) laying traps takes stamina. trekking to find the perfect spot to lay a trap expends kcal, etc etc. That’s even MORE strenuous on a person who is not fit!
4) Sure thing, energy.”
1) They’ll just be put back in, you act like nobody would try and make a gun?
2) Not really. You’re severely underestimating how much endurance it takes to walk or pull your finger.
3) You really are grasping at straws.
4) Not a baseless assertion, it isn’t complicated to generate energy.
“EAs are NOT more athletic than white guys. I spoke about East Asian male sex woes (but they’re more evolved!!) last month”
So whites are then. Even then my point stands they don’t have the highest T, nor do they get the most women.
“So you tell me why women go for European men over East Asian ‘athletes’, the ‘superior’ 10 trillion IQ race.”
I literally just told you why.
“They say that avian brains have the potential to have much higher ‘cognitive power’ than primate brains. Hmm”
That’s awesome. I’ll check out that link sometime.
“THERE. IS. NO. B-W. T. GAP!”
Chill.
“I’m good. Not a homo,”
Technically you are a homo, a homo sapiens.
“and I probably won’t have kids.”
Not having kids is the dumbest thing any person with an above average IQ could do.
Forgot to meantion Jm8
the reason I posted those pictures of the microliths was to show that european ones were superior.
To MeLo
“African microliths:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3421194/#__sec8title
figure 2.
European microliths”
The microliths I cited are the earliest in Africa (or anywhere), not those of the same era as the European Aurignacian/upper Paleolothic (.
Those from Pinnacle point (and other Southern African sites arround the period) vary in appearance and size:
Some (seemingly more representative) examples:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pinnacle+point+microliths&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCsv3CoO7SAhWC7iYKHWr5BzUQ_AUIBigB&biw=737&bih=705#tbm=isch&q=pinnacle+point+tools&*&imgrc=6q0cswR-WcuqqM:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v491/n7425/abs/nature11660.html
(figure 3, link above)
http://www.humanorigin.co.za/pages/pinnacle-point/
I don’t think there is any real evidence for an actual bow in Africa? I thought there were only “arrowheads”?
It is possible they were hafted on spear handles and thrown, but they do bear strikingly similar aesthetics with bushman arrowheads.”
It is pretty unlikey that they were spear heads (though such also have been found)
Spear heads (even most atlatl points) would usually be significantly larger than the points in question—those though to be arrows that is, whose size is thought more consistent. Wear patterns and aerodynamics (as compaired to those expected of/consistent with different kind of points and their uses) figure in analyses as well. Of course the bows themselves would likely not survive, being made of wood.
The likely stone arrow points used at Sibudu (ca. 65,000 bc) and nearby sites, and especially the bone arrow points (also found at Sibudu) especially, are very like those of Bushmen.
The general tool kit of the early LSA site at Border cave (50,000 BC), (including its arrows), is considered close to those of more recent Khoisan tribes.
The bow is the dominant hunting weapon accross much of Subsaharan Africa (including the most primitive/culturally archaic—or conservative/divergent groups like Pygmies, Bushman and Hadza) Different Arrow/small projectile using toolset traditions establish/form in other parts of SS Africa, starting at least by the time soon after the early LSA (Border cave date) or so.
Like at Shum Laka Central Africa from ca. 30,000):
“A Dictionary of Archaeology” by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, p. 30
https://books.google.com/books?id=8HKDtlPuM2oC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=shum+laka+microliths+quartz&source=bl&ots=LJbTUhkKMO&sig=dKKVQW_4xkXhuzMJyFc5L8u_3TU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLw4_cv-7SAhUl5YMKHWjOBm4Q6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=shum%20laka%20microliths%20quartz&f=false
“and made heated fat-based paints from ochre (possibly for rock and/or body painting), seasonal fishing and shellfish, use engraved ornaments,”
Aurignacian art is superior. Though I was specifically talking about toolsets.”
The Art we have from theAurignacian is superior, yes. The example was not of art but paint (made with the same basic process later used by sapiens thereafter through the Aurignation-well after the paleolithic/mesolithic-more recent eras, (being an advance from the simple ground mineral pigments known prior.)
We don’t yet know of surviving figurative art from the African Mid. Stone age (i.e before 50-30,000), i.e the LSA—as opposed things like the abstract engravings found,)—and so we unfortunately can’t judge it, though it is likely that some was made. The Bushman (and Tanzanian hunter gathers) are known to have rock painting
The earliest currently known figurative paintings are on small rock slabs found at Apollo cave S. Africa (ca, 25,000 bc).
http://arthistorypart1.blogspot.com/2008/01/prehistoric-rock-art-in-africa-apollo.html
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/apol/hd_apol.htm
Generally the kinds of deeper habitable caves likely to preserve paintings (for the longest periods) are commoner in Europe, and more likey to be desired for occupation (have an added importance) in Europe due to climate (esp. the deeper parts safer from cold)
Though in Africa, those cave shelters that do exist—like Blombos, may protect from wild animals, rain, cold night temperatures, etc,
As the metmuseum link says, the painted plaques may have fallen/eroded off the cave walls, or survived due to being buried—perhaps purposely, Conditions for preservation seem
But It is true, as Afrosapiens said, that much more research/fieldwork has been done in Europe than Africa. Hopefully in the near future will add significantly more evidence re: early cultures there.
“Bone harpoons from Central Africa, an advanced feature, ca. 90,000 bc., which before its discovery were thought to first appear in the European Aurignacian.”
“These harpoons, are much more efficient looking, so do the magdelenian ones.”
They do somewhat resemble some from Magalenian (from17-10,000 bc). Generally similiar Harpoons are found, in different parts of Africa, following those oldest ones, throughout the Paleolithic/LSA—of course to more recent times (e.g. at the Ishango site, associated with the “ishango bone” archaeologically, ca 30,000)
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/06/27/oldest-bone-tools-outside-africa-discovered-china/
The New York Times graphic was unintended, meant as one the links (still leads to page with relavant image of microliths)
“Lol they’re wrong. It doesn’t even matter though, you still said T has been rising.”
Go on. How are they wrong? Testosterone fluctuates daily. Hourly. Clearly some reduction in T was necessary for civilization. But T dipping too low is a problem.
“The issue is that low T isn’t always associated with neotenous features.”
The issue is that lower T in an organism will more than likely mean it’ll be smaller. Look at a bodybuilder coming off juice. He gets smaller. His muscles shrink. Certain stacks change your bone size. Your bones get bigger, smaller, etc. Testosterone is a powerful hormone.
“You are changing goal posts and cherrypicking”
Ha, no I’m not. I asked a legitimate question. Are T levels today associated with T levels 6kya? And the Chinese are very, very well known for their “morality” for others. So no, that’s not cherry-picking.
“1) They’ll just be put back in, you act like nobody would try and make a gun?”
No I don’t. I know how hard it’ll be when everything everyone knows and loves is gone. Have you ever seen The how I Shouldn’t Be Alive? Check out a few episodes and get back to me.
“2) Not really. You’re severely underestimating how much endurance it takes to walk or pull your finger.”
Um no I’m not. Especially when you’re tired and hungry. You keep on keeping on. “pull your finger”. I think we are imagining two differ scenarios.
Property get out of breath just by walking! And the people I’m describing will get out of breath by walking, trekking, laying traps, etc. It’s common sense.
“3) You really are grasping at straws..”
No I’m not… Can you explain how? Please explain how. Have you ever been hiking? Know how many kcal hiking expends? How much energy does one need while hiking? A lot.
“4) Not a baseless assertion, it isn’t complicated to generate energy.”
Ok. Doesn’t change the athletic concept. Some people are whether adapted to certain situations, and the situation I’m envisioning, an athletic man will come out on top. One with no stamina, whose skinny fat will get eaten alive in the real world, away from the safety of modernity.
“So whites are then. Even then my point stands they don’t have the highest T, nor do they get the most women”
Because whites are “just right.”Thwre are more variables to mate selection than testosterone. Get more women? Any data? You talking about the okcupid data? That’s (sadly) the most robust thing I know of.
” I literally just told you why”
Women hate short men.
“That’s awesome. I’ll check out that link sometime.”
I love her work.
“Chill”
Lol. I am right about blacks, whites and testosterone.
“Technically you are a homo, a homo sapiens.”
True.
“Not having kids is the dumbest thing any person with an above average IQ could do.”
Don’t care. I decided years ago I wasn’t having kids.
“Go on. How are they wrong?”
Because facial reduction in archaic hominins has been occuring for millions of years not hundreds of thousands. The skull has gotten progressively smaller and more “delicate” while testosterone has been supposedly rising, along with our “athleticism”. This has occurred since Australopithecus not only since the first homo sapiens.
“no I’m not”
You are, you said T has been rising, Athleticism correlates with T, east asians are above average in both regards. This contradicts your statement that civilization causes lower levels of T because east and south asians were two of the first to create civilization. Once I demonstrated this you implied that T levels were different back then which is just a form of special pleading especially since places like hong kong, japan, south korea, etc are very technologically advanced. You’re also cherry picking because I could literally name dozens of times european and african nations expressed a lack of empathy.
“I know how hard it’ll be when everything everyone knows and loves is gone.”
No you dont. The smartest thing you could do when civilization fails is just try to cut the lights back on, whoever has the best technology wins, this has almost always been the driver of history
“Have you ever seen The how I Shouldn’t Be Alive?”
Yes, but that’s irrelevant. Have you seen naked and afraid? it’s usually people who are the lazies and have the smallest appetites who survive the longest.
“Um no I’m not. Especially when you’re tired and hungry.”
Yes you are. Have you ever been hunting?
” Please explain how.”
Because laying traps does not require a lot of energy, that’s where their efficiency comes from.
“Have you ever been hiking? ”
Yes, actually a lot. I live in the rockies. The type of hikes I do are about 4 miles and constantly(not even the slightest exaggeration) up steep mountains. Most hikes aren’t like that and at the most have a slight incline. Plus it’s not like you can’t take a break for 5 minutes every now and then.
“Ok. Doesn’t change the athletic concept.”
Right well while you’re freezing near the fire and having to chase down prey I’ll generate electricity using a river or something, hook up some old central heating in an abandoned building, and then because I’m a nerd who’s been reading books inside my whole life, I’ll just weld some new weapons that are superior to your sticks and sharps rocks. Your women will wise up and join me in enjoying the delicious fish I caught by laying a trap in the same river and still have the energy to bang them when I’m done. All that endurance running probably put you cucks to sleep early.
“Get more women?”
I don’t think whites get the most women but I’m just guessing really. I assumed that Africans would have been the more promiscuous, but maybe that’s just my inner racist.
“I love her work.”
Yeah, I’d bust a nut on her face too.
“Don’t care. I decided years ago I wasn’t having kids.”
It’s your decision obviously. I’m just trying to understand the rationale behind it. I mean your very smart, you should be passing on your genes. At least donate your jizz.
“The microliths I cited are the earliest in Africa (or anywhere), not those of the same era as the European Aurignacian/upper Paleolothic (.”
No they were around 50-40 kya. At least the ones I referenced. Though you can tell that ascetically the Eurasian artifacts are more detailed implying possibly more specialized uses.
“The bow is the dominant hunting weapon accross much of Subsaharan Africa ”
Are the oldest european arrowheads only found in the neolithic? I wonder if Eurasians diverged before the bow’s innovation.
“so we unfortunately can’t judge it, though it is likely that some was made.”
Well as with the bow a lack of evidence is not evidence.
On the subject of the harpoons, 150 lbs isn’t that heavy and with a couple grown men it’ll be piece of cake, especially in water. Not to say they weren’t smart enough to create boats I just don’t think harpoons for catfishing are good evidence for it.
“Because facial reduction in archaic hominins has been occuring for millions of years not hundreds of thousands. The skull has gotten progressively smaller and more “delicate” while testosterone has been supposedly rising, along with our “athleticism”. This has occurred since Australopithecus not only since the first homo sapiens.”
It’s not about just skull-size reduction. Certain parts of the face become more prominent when administered testosterone (brow ridge, jaw line, cheekbones). Maybe it’s just a correlation, but what it says to me is that either a reduction in androgens or androgen sensitivity reduced our craniofacial morphology which allowed for behavioral modernity. Look at female bodybuilders who use. Where the body has the most androgen receptors, the body will respond very well to the testosterone. Features get bigger when administered testosterone. This shows that a reduction in testosterone over time.
“Athleticism correlates with T, east asians are above average in both regards.”
As if athleticism is only predicated on testosterone. It isn’t. It’s also influenced by somatype.
I’m not saying that one variable and one variable only correlated with athleticism/sports success. But when looked at as a whole along with human races, you will then see what I’ve been writing about for the past two weeks in regards to human races/ethnies and sporting competitions.
“This contradicts your statement that civilization causes lower levels of T because east and south asians were two of the first to create civilization.”
Just like I stated that BDNF, IGF-1 and VEGF correlated with larger capillaries and brain size you said it should correlate with race. I’m speaking about a time when the human races as we know them weren’t in existence. I don’t understand why race has to get thrown into every conversation.
The authors gave solid evidence that there was a testosterone reduction/androgen drop in between 200-80 kya. Hell, the parts of the skull that reduced have a lot of androgen receptors in them! We obviously can’t know whether or not a reduction in androgen receptors or a reduction in circulating androgen was the cause in craniofacial reduction, but there is a solid amount of evidence that testosterone reduction caused the softer features in the skulls studied.
“You’re also cherry picking because I could literally name dozens of times european and african nations expressed a lack of empathy.”
The present research investigates the extent to which cultural background moderates empathy in response to observing someone undergoing physical or social pain. In 3 studies, we demonstrate that East Asian and White British participants differ in both affective and cognitive components of their empathic reactions in response to someone else’s pain. Compared with East Asian participants, British participants report greater empathic concern and show lower empathic accuracy. More important, findings cannot be explained by an in-group advantage effect. Potential reasons for observed cultural differences are discussed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26950365
What partly drives cultural differences? Genetics.
“No you dont. The smartest thing you could do when civilization fails is just try to cut the lights back on, whoever has the best technology wins, this has almost always been the driver of history”
Says you as you type behind a computer screen in the comfort of modernity.
“Yes, but that’s irrelevant. Have you seen naked and afraid? it’s usually people who are the lazies and have the smallest appetites who survive the longest.”
The point of me bringing the program up is that people become scared when the comforts of modernity are gone. Sure people do very creative and intelligent things, but they cannot survive for long. There would be a huge population drop in such a scenario. The laziest surely would not survive in a shit-hits-the-fan scenario.
“Yes you are. Have you ever been hunting?”
No.
I’m not underestimating anything. If people had to make things from scratch, then endurance would be a factor in regards to use of the weapon.
“Because laying traps does not require a lot of energy, that’s where their efficiency comes from.”
“Yes, actually a lot. I live in the rockies. The type of hikes I do are about 4 miles and constantly(not even the slightest exaggeration) up steep mountains. Most hikes aren’t like that and at the most have a slight incline. Plus it’s not like you can’t take a break for 5 minutes every now and then.”
The point is how much energy you need while hiking.
2000 kcal needed for normal hiking while for hiking in cold weather, 4500 kcal is recommended.
http://blog.outdoorherbivore.com/camp-tips/thru-hiker%E2%80%99s-eating-strategy/
Energy demands while hiking are incredible. One with a more efficient metabolism and higher levels of endurance would clearly fare better.
“Right well while you’re freezing near the fire and having to chase down prey I’ll generate electricity using a river or something, hook up some old central heating in an abandoned building”
Sure.
“I’ll just weld some new weapons that are superior to your sticks and sharps rocks”
Uhhuh.
“Your women will wise up and join me in enjoying the delicious fish I caught by laying a trap in the same river and still have the energy to bang them when I’m done. All that endurance running probably put you cucks to sleep early.”
Right.
You say this so easily behind your computer in the safety of modernity. It’s a lot easier to say this things when you can just go to the store for food and flick a light on or off for power. But it’s a whole differnt ball game when the scenario occurs.
“I don’t think whites get the most women but I’m just guessing really. I assumed that Africans would have been the more promiscuous, but maybe that’s just my inner racist.”
Compared to Asians they do. Women find mesos more attractive as I’ve said. The OKcupid data also shows women being more attracted to blacks. Two and two together.
“It’s your decision obviously. I’m just trying to understand the rationale behind it. I mean your very smart, you should be passing on your genes. At least donate your jizz.”
Thanks for the compliment. I’m more focused on my business ventures. If it happens it happens, but I won’t be mad if it doesn’t.
“This shows that a reduction in testosterone over time.”
Correlation isn’t causation.
” I’m speaking about a time when the human races as we know them weren’t in existence.”
No you aren’t. Am I the only one keeping track of this conversation? The races already existed at the beginning of civilization.
“The authors gave solid evidence that there was a testosterone reduction/androgen drop in between 200-80 kya.”
No they didn’t, they chose an arbitrary point of when our facial structure was becoming more gracile(even though it always has been) and then made a just so story with one correlation.
“What partly drives cultural differences? Genetics.”
Yet you assume empathy is a proxy of technological development. Ludicrous.
“No.”
Not to say anecdotes are good evidence, but i think that’s why you’re overestimating how hard it is.
“Says you as you type behind a computer screen in the comfort of modernity.”
No shit. I’m definitely not bossed around by spear chuckers.
“The laziest surely would not survive in a shit-hits-the-fan scenario.”
Not at all. In that show you constantly see the ones trying to work hard for high protein food exhausting themselves and tapping out. It’s always the person chilling, eating insects and only moving to get wood or water, who survive. It’s smart to conserve your energy, they’re smart enough to know they suck at hunting and so it’s more efficient to be patient.
“The point is how much energy you need while hiking.”
No the point is that, you can literally place a trap anywhere and come back to it, you’re not even going to be walking for more than two miles and usually you would have caught something on the way back.
“Sure.”
Hydraulic power bud.
“Uhhuh.”
Yeah, in fact being a nerd I wouldn’t even have to do that, i’d just be naturally better at tool making.
“But it’s a whole differnt ball game when the scenario occurs.”
Not like you think.
“If it happens it happens, but I won’t be mad if it doesn’t.”
Knowing what i do about HBD, I feel like I have to. Assuming I am smarter than your average bear.
““The microliths I cited are the earliest in Africa (or anywhere), not those of the same era as the European Aurignacian/upper Paleolothic (.”
No they were around 50-40 kya. At least the ones I referenced. Though you can tell that ascetically the Eurasian artifacts are more detailed implying possibly more specialized uses.”
Yes, those you referenced were, my mistake But I had refferenced those of pinnacle point (which are the earliest) and did so in my response. There were microlith elsewhere in afirca as well contemporary to the Aurignacian.
“Are the oldest european arrowheads only found in the neolithic? I wonder if Eurasians diverged before the bow’s innovation.”
They may have. Likely the the atlatl/woomera came first—and they probably did not diverge before that—(and the bow/arrow more than once later)
“On the subject of the harpoons, 150 lbs isn’t that heavy and with a couple grown men it’ll be piece of cake, especially in water. Not to say they weren’t smart enough to create boats I just don’t think harpoons for catfishing are good evidence for it.”
Is not just the size. Giant catfish only live in waters over a certain depth (none nearly shallow enough for a a man to stand).
“Correlation isn’t causation.”
I know that. Thanks for telling me.
When exogenous testosterone is administered to children who’ve yet to hit puberty, the same parts of the skull show growth. Growth in those areas is retarded when a person has low testosterone. That’s not ‘correlation isn’t causation’, that’s ‘testosterone causes certain parts of the skull and face to grow larger’. There is a causal relationship.
“No you aren’t. Am I the only one keeping track of this conversation? The races already existed at the beginning of civilization.”
I am keeping track of it.
Nordics didn’t appear until ~5kya.
https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/837815063276724224
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/our-magnificent-bastard-race/
European genetic history began 6500 ya.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130423-european-genetic-history-dna-archaeology-science/
Europeans are an amalgamation of three populations: the Yamna, Anatolian farmers and West-European hunter-gathererers.
White skin is very recent, less than 7ky old.
Eurasians were a single breeding population until not too recently.
The beginning of civilization that I’m talking about is agriculutre 10kya. As you can see, the races as we know them weren’t formed that long ago.
“No they didn’t, they chose an arbitrary point of when our facial structure was becoming more gracile(even though it always has been) and then made a just so story with one correlation.”
See fig. 1 in the paper. Significant craniofacial reduction from 110 kya compared to an African male fromm today. The features that are most related to androgens/androgen receptors are suspisciously smaller. They limited the analysis to male skulls since testosterone reduction mediates changes in social behavior and craniofacial feminization. They chose skulls post-80kya and today for these purposes. But due to limitations for the older skulls they included 6 female crania from that time period. “Just-so story and correlation”, new fave phrase?
You understand that testosterone mediates facial and skull morphology right?
“Yet you assume empathy is a proxy of technological development. Ludicrous.”
Yet you assume I’m talking about modern-day races and I’m not. Ludicrous.
“Not to say anecdotes are good evidence, but i think that’s why you’re overestimating how hard it is.”
I know how hard things are, especially for people who have never done them before. Fitter people will be better off than the couch potato even those his IQ is 6 infinity.
“No shit. I’m definitely not bossed around by spear chuckers.”
Missed my point. You can dream up all these scenarios in your head. “If A happens, I’ll do X. If B happens I’ll do Y.” Too bad real life isn’t so simple as to have everything work as you planned it.
“Not at all. In that show you constantly see the ones trying to work hard for high protein food exhausting themselves and tapping out. It’s always the person chilling, eating insects and only moving to get wood or water, who survive. It’s smart to conserve your energy, they’re smart enough to know they suck at hunting and so it’s more efficient to be patient.”
How did you show this?
What kind of factors would be critical for survival in the wild—especially during an apocalyptic scenario? Mental toughness, determination, motivation, work ethic and of course intelligence. Who has these qualities? I wonder….
It wouldn’t be smart to just stick around in one place if you’re hungry. You know that the human body has specific adaptations for such a scenario. How do you know it’s always the person “chilling, eating insects and only moving to get wood or water, who survive”? Sure the advice is to stay place if you’re lost in the wilderness, but that doesn’t say anything about the breakdown of society.
“No the point is that, you can literally place a trap anywhere and come back to it, you’re not even going to be walking for more than two miles and usually you would have caught something on the way back.”
Two miles is a long walk with little energy. Clearly one with higher fitness would be more suited for such an event.
“Hydraulic power bud.”
Surely you’d get lucky enough to have these things at your diposal.
Why do you underestimate the amount of extreme chaos that would happen when society dissappears?
“Yeah, in fact being a nerd I wouldn’t even have to do that, i’d just be naturally better at tool making.”
Man, you don’t even know what type of skillset I have.
“Not like you think.”
Trust me, I know. It’s not how you thing buddy. You think it’ll happen as planned in your head. Real life is different.
“Knowing what i do about HBD, I feel like I have to. Assuming I am smarter than your average bear.”
If it happens it happens. I’m not too worried about it. I won’t be mad if it doesn’t.
“that’s ‘testosterone causes certain parts of the skull and face to grow larger’. There is a causal relationship.”
It doesn’t matter, You have to show that T levels were lowering, and you said the complete opposite
“Nordics didn’t appear until ~5kya.”
Nordic isn’t a race. Caucasoids aren’t caucasoids because of blonde hair and blue eyes. So all those black haired brown eyed europeans are not nordics?
“They chose skulls post-80kya and today for these purposes.”
You see this:
https://boneclones.com/product/australopithecus-afarensis-skull-BH-001
and this:
https://boneclones.com/product/homo-ergaster-turkana-boy-skull-half-scale-TSBH-012
I want you to tell me which one is more neotenous, and then I want you to guess which is homo erectus and which is Australopithecus.
” “Just-so story and correlation”, new fave phrase?”
Yeah.
“Fitter people will be better off than the couch potato even those his IQ is 6 infinity.”
I don’t think nerds are couch potatoes. But they aren’t necessarily active.
“How did you show this?”
This is matt and honora
As you can see one is “fit and pretty” the other is fat and docile. During the course of the show Matt is consistently in one spot while honora constantly gets angry because she feels he isn’t doing any work.
This is what happens to honora:
You can probably find the full episode somewhere on the web.
The reason why Naked and afraid is a good comparison is because the participants just came out of modernity. Not unlike what would happen in an apocalypse scenario. Why it would be a good idea to be lazy is because even though most of the guests are trained in hunter gathering, they aren’t good at it, because they’ve never been ina real scenario, so it’s better to eat lighter less protein filled food until the trap you laid in the river catches you a fish.
“Two miles is a long walk”
Not really. That’s 8 laps at my old highschool track.
“Clearly one with higher fitness would be more suited for such an event.”
I know, but what I’m saying is that it’s not impossible. I didn’t get in shape until I was in highschool before then I was pretty scrawny but I would walk across town to meet up with friends. You can go 3 days without water and over a week without food. You’d be fine.
“Surely you’d get lucky enough to have these things at your diposal.”
You can make that shit out of sticks dude.
“Why do you underestimate the amount of extreme chaos that would happen when society dissappears?”
Well I assume just cutting off the lights will cause population dips. Think of how many people who are on life support or who would be in planes and cars etc etc. They’d almost all die if civilization just abruptly failed.
I would not want to be around you during such a scenario. You’re that guy who would cause drama when we should be working together.
Jm8
Well you have interested in the bow evidence. Why would europeans not develop it? If neanderthal competition is a selection pressure for technology why was the bow discluded? I mean would you say that African populations in the LSA were smarter than cro magnon because of their bows? I mean honestly magdelenian bows are superior but they come about 10,000 years after the extinction of the neanderthals.
When did we leave african 70 kya? Close to the 64 kys on the arrows. Maybe it is possible that cro magnon left before it’s invention.
“It doesn’t matter, You have to show that T levels were lowering, and you said the complete opposite.”
I’ve said I can’t directly show that T levels were lowering. Women selected men for higher levels of T. Fact. Testosterone levels dropped in the period of 100k years showing in our craniofacial features. Fact.
We can infer either a lowering of total testosterone or androgen receptors due to the parts of the skull and face that shrank over time. Is it meaningless to you that exogenous testosterone administered to someone shows growth in the places that shrank in the time period stated by the authors?
“Nordic isn’t a race. Caucasoids aren’t caucasoids because of blonde hair and blue eyes. So all those black haired brown eyed europeans are not nordics?”
I’m showing one branch of the European race didn’t exist before then. I showed that modern day European genetic history didn’t begin until 6500 ya.
Nordics are a specific group of people. So no, those black-haired, brown-eyes peoples weren’t Nordic.
“I want you to tell me which one is more neotenous, and then I want you to guess which is homo erectus and which is Australopithecus.”
Ergaster is more neotonous.
“I don’t think nerds are couch potatoes. But they aren’t necessarily active.”
A nerd is a couch potato compared to me and people like me.
“As you can see one is “fit and pretty” the other is fat and docile. During the course of the show Matt is consistently in one spot while honora constantly gets angry because she feels he isn’t doing any work.”
You’re saying that one is ‘fit and pretty’. Just because one is in ‘good shape’ doesn’t say anything about their mentality nor how good their cardio is.
Anecdotes are cute. What happened to her? Why did she pass out? Does that say anything for the average fit and in shape person compare to the average overweight person with no type of cardio?
“The reason why Naked and afraid is a good comparison is because the participants just came out of modernity. Not unlike what would happen in an apocalypse scenario. Why it would be a good idea to be lazy is because even though most of the guests are trained in hunter gathering, they aren’t good at it, because they’ve never been ina real scenario, so it’s better to eat lighter less protein filled food until the trap you laid in the river catches you a fish.”
I don’t think TV shows are a good comparison. Next you’ll be telling me that Man Vs. Wild is a good comparison.
How about the Andes mountain crash with the soccer team I believe it was? Sure they all ‘stayed in the same spot’, but that’s what the scenario called for. My scenario is completely different.
“Not really. That’s 8 laps at my old highschool track.”
“Just 8 laps at your old high-school track” when you’ve hardly got any energy is a lot.
“I know, but what I’m saying is that it’s not impossible. I didn’t get in shape until I was in highschool before then I was pretty scrawny but I would walk across town to meet up with friends. You can go 3 days without water and over a week without food. You’d be fine.”
OK? I don’t think you understand the type of shape the average American is in. “You’d be fine”, except extremely malnourished with little energy.
“You can make that shit out of sticks dude.”
My point is, you imagine scenarios in your head and they turn out completely different when they occur in reality.
“Well I assume just cutting off the lights will cause population dips. Think of how many people who are on life support or who would be in planes and cars etc etc. They’d almost all die if civilization just abruptly failed.”
Chaos would still ensue.
“I would not want to be around you during such a scenario. You’re that guy who would cause drama when we should be working together.”
You don’t even know me. If you’d see what I do for work then you’d say “Yea, this guy can rally people.”
Which reminds me:
If the civilization as we know it would perish tomorrow, completely obliterated, this man would be our new ruler:
You know it’s true.
To MeLo
“Well you have interested in the bow evidence. Why would europeans not develop it?”
They did. Or their (fairly) immediate Eurasian ancestors, sometime after they diverged from Africans. The bow has been the dominant hunting weapon from early times in Europe (and for much of its history) as well. (one of the points in the Chinese bone tool you linked looked like an arrow, but I could’nt tell the size, so maybe an atlatl point. It could have been invented more than once in Eurasia as well (and once in the Americas)
“I mean would you say that African populations in the LSA were smarter than cro magnon because of their bows? I mean honestly magdelenian bows are superior but they come about 10,000 years after the extinction of the neanderthals.”
I woudn’t say that, thay clearly had alot of advanced practices. A similar intelligence can adapt differently to different enviromnent/circumstancess and the atlatl is a pretty effective weapon. Some Amerindians still used the atlatl till relatively recent times (where others used the bow.arrow, or both) like the Atztecs—hence its Nahuatl names— (nobles used the atlatl and commoners the bow) and other Meso-Americans and many Indians in the US SouthWest.
“Maybe it is possible that cro magnon left before it’s invention.”
I would guess something like that. Proto-Eurasians lilkely had the atlatl (as most Africans pre OOA likely did), and before than came the throwing spear (which the Neanderthals didd’nt have.
The bow and alatl each have their advantages.
(paragraphs 4 and 5 on “archery” and “spear thrower “technological systems”
http://twipa.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-pros-and-cons-of-hunting-with.html
The Pymies often use the bow—and various nets/traps, but prefer spears (better for megafauna less for small game, both being good for medium game) for hunting elephants.
Edit:
““Maybe it is possible that cro magnon left before it’s invention.””
“Something like that, though maybe not much before……..”
Edit:
““Maybe it is possible that cro magnon left before it’s invention.””
“Something like that, though maybe not much before or (possibly) from a part of Africa that diddn’t yet have it……..”
“I’ve said I can’t directly show that T levels were lowering. ”
Because of this^^
You cannot infer this:
“Testosterone levels dropped in the period of 100k years showing in our craniofacial features.”
Furthermore, women selecting for higher testosterone would have increased the levels of it.
“I showed that modern day European genetic history didn’t begin until 6500 ya.”
“Genetically” Everyone outside of africa is there own race.
“Nordics are a specific group of people. So no, those black-haired, brown-eyes peoples weren’t Nordic.”
So you’re saying there are no Scandinavians with black hair and brown eyes?
“Ergaster is more neotonous.”
Right and Ergaster used persistence hunting and endurance running, and had higher levels of testosterone.
“Anecdotes are cute. I don’t think TV shows are a good comparison.”
Don’t be a jackass, you’re the one who originally brought up TV shows. She passed out because she was overexerting herself in the hot sun. The fat guy conserved his energy for 21 days and then walked 8 miles until he reached his extraction point.
“when you’ve hardly got any energy is a lot.”
Why are you assuming you’d be out of energy at the start?
“My point is, you imagine scenarios in your head and they turn out completely different when they occur in reality.”
I think you’re just being pessimistic.
“Chaos would still ensue.”
I think the issue is that you’re talking about what would happen as soon as society starts collapsing, i’m talking about what happens after it already has.
“You don’t even know me. ”
Fair enough. I’m just saying your preference for a high T world implies my interpretation.
“The bow has been the dominant hunting weapon from early times in Europe (and for much of its history) as well.”
What’s the oldest artifact? I keep finding stuff from the neolithic.
“I would guess something like that. Proto-Eurasians lilkely had the atlatl (as most Africans pre OOA likely did), and before than came the throwing spear (which the Neanderthals didn’t have.
The bow and alatl each have their advantages.
(paragraphs 4 and 5 on “archery” and “spear thrower “technological systems””
That makes sense there was larger game in ice age europe. It could be possible that mutations for increased intelligence back drafted into africa.
I think we have evidence of the bow from Europe by at least the Magdalenian (17,000s-1100) late paleolithic-mesolithic. I think there may also be some evidence for them in the Gravettian (22,000s)
“That makes sense there was larger game in ice age europe.
That may be a factor given the prominance of megaauna in parts of Europa and their possible importance for some groups (in the atlatl’s continued importance there). But as mentioned megafauna existed in Africa, and so did the throwing spear, and the atlatl remained important in the parts of the Americas and Australia.
” It could be possible that mutations for increased intelligence back drafted into africa.”
This is not in evidence and does not really make sense—particularly for the period we’re talking about. The more advanced technologies/practices in Africa (namely those I cited) are clearly native and were in existance, either before the OOA, or evolved from archaeological cultures that existed before it in places deep in Africa. There is no reason to posit a Eurasian origin for any of that, (that is: many such practices/tech predate the Aurignacian or if are far removed from it geographically/archaeologically and have no connection to Eurasian industries/cultures—besides that of more distant general common sapiens origin via the OOA).
Edit: “—besides that of more distant general common sapiens origin—that Eurasians share, being ultimately derived from Africa because of the the OOA).”
Edit:
“…The more advanced technologies/practices in Africa (namely those I cited) are clearly native and were in existance, either before the OOA—or soon after/arround that time,…”
Re: European bows
“(17,00s-1100) late paleolithic-mesolithic. I think there may also be some evidence for them in the Gravettian (22,00s)”
https://books.google.com/books?id=8PnzBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA199&dq=gravettian+bows&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP7Iu9v_vSAhUF7CYKHQTpCgQQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=gravettian%20bows&f=false
” But as mentioned megafauna existed in Africa”
But weren’t there more in Eurasia? Cold temperatures select for larger bodies.
“This is not in evidence and does not really make sense—particularly for the period we’re talking about. ”
Well actually, there have been fossilized teeth found in china dating to about 80,000 years ago. And there is genetic evidence suggesting they bred with the first out of Africa wave, especially the ancestors of Australians. Though you are correct it is very speculative. Apparently I have trouble making that clear sometimes.
“but that all hinges on whether homo erectus had an almost completely modern body or not. Homo erectus could have been perfectly built for persistence hunting and endurance running but their brains were obviously less complex than ours.”
He did and was built for persistence hunting. What I cited is more than good enough to infer that. The footprints seal the deal. Keep in mind this is when the increase really started.
Weird how all these things started with Erectus hmmm…. (though a start to a modern pelvis began with Lucy, australopithicenese probably couldn’t run).
“He did and was built for persistence hunting. ”
Ah so I was correct, homo erectus had a primitive brain but a nearly modern body.
“Weird how all these things started with Erectus hmmm…. (though a start to a modern pelvis began with Lucy, australopithicenese probably couldn’t run).”
Actually, there is evidence that Australopithecus Sediba could run based on their ankle bones and what not.
It’s been known that lucy was still an arboreal hominid, recently they found the Australopithecus did not swing in trees, but instead walked in them, so maybe bipedalism began in the trees, similar to Orangutans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21903807
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19530142
http://www.evoanth.net/2017/03/16/lucy-wasnt-tree-swinger/
Bipedalism began as a new pressire after we came out of the trees some 7my. We could get more kcal that way. It’s more energtically efficient than knuckle-walking.
Foot bones are a good marker, but endurance running is key, which began in Erectus.
Meh. Lucy’s pelvis is not really conducive to bipedality. Sure it’s the beginnings of our modern pelvis, but the way her morphology is set up seems to point in the direction of her not being able to walk like us.
Modern gait began in Erectus and then was perfected by us.
“Bipedalism began as a new pressire”
Bipedalism isn’t a selection pressure. It’s a result of one.
“Meh. Lucy’s pelvis is not really conducive to bipedality.”
What? I just showed you anatomic evidence that Sediba could walk and that her ankle was designed to run
“Bipedalism isn’t a selection pressure. It’s a result of one.”
Right, and those who were better able to adapt to the new environment persisted and small changes occurred over time until we became fully bipedal. Those who couldn’t hang got selected out.
“What? I just showed you anatomic evidence that Sediba could walk”
Sediba lacked a foot arch:
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep17677
A. sediba is “indistinguishable from extant African apes in the angular configuration of its rearfoot, which strongly suggests that it lacked a longitudinal arch.”
Look at the pelvis. If the pelvis was closer to the LCA then it probably didn’t walk. We didn’t have our modern gait until the appearance of Erectus 2 mya. There may be other forms of bipedality that move differently and would be different anatomically. I won’t hold my breath, though.
I won’t discard that Lucy wasn’t like orangutans, though. I don’t think Lucy could have walked unsupported due to pelvic morphology.
“Sediba lacked a foot arch:”
Well my link said they didand yours said they didn’t and that Afarensis had a longitudinal arch instead
This article does too.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/331/6018/750.full?sid=822f4982-8523-4fb3-9c58-c8d3272fd367%20
“If the pelvis was closer to the LCA then it probably didn’t walk.”
Not necessarily. Afarensis could have walked but not as efficient as us.
“There may be other forms of bipedality that move differently and would be different anatomically. I won’t hold my breath, though.”
There already are.
Looking at foot morphology we can say that Sediba didn’t have the arch. That’s paramount to walking. I’ll find the paper you linked on Sci hub later and give it a read.
I did say “probably couldn’t walk”. The pelvis is paramount to our modern gait and bipedalism, which appeared in australopithcenes 3mya.
Ok then, there are other forms of bipedalism. None are as efficient as ours. Do other forms of bipedalism come with the energy saving that ours does?
“None are as efficient as ours.”
Are you sure?
Any data to the contrary?
“Any data to the contrary?”
That’s not how it works though. It’ wrong until proven right, not the other way around.
You need to provide evidence for other forms of bipedality. The onus is on you, not me.
You asked if there were forms of bipedalism that are more efficient then ours, and I have no idea. I didn’t mean to confuse you.
If by bipedal you mean creatures that specifically use two legs as locomotion, then yes there is an abundance of those, extinct and thriving. As far as I’m aware though there are not other animals that have our exact form of anatomical bipedalism.
Orangutans have a primitive form of arboreal bipedalism, which is different then what our LCA would have had. I believe Phil was the first to point that out to me, but I don’t remember.
To Melo, I remember that discussion but the details are fuzzy to me.
What it centered on regarding bipedalism was that prior to main ground adaptation we would’ve been more like orangutans in skeletal features relevant to locomotion rather than knuckle walking, which may’ve been a feature that distinguished the common ancestor of Human/Chimp LCA and Gorilla, and eventually chimps and humans.
Basically we would’ve primarily tree climbers in the fashion of Orangutans gradually becoming more and more used to the ground yet not actually becoming Knuckle-walkers.
Yes but i think you had said that our LCA would have had a different anatomical form then orangutans in the pelvic region. Something about the way they rotate theirs?
Whatever the difference was, it’s was likely related to stability as Orangutans are assisted by branches on trees and not free-balanced.
I believe the rotating note was the difference in Chimp/Bonobo bipedalism.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070531150326.htm
Basically when Forest grew huge gaps in canopies, Orangutans stayed, Chimp and Gorillas transitioned inbetweened land and trees, their climbing developing knuckle walking, but we stayed on the ground thanks to adaptations of assisted bipedalism allowing us to walk on two legs.
By this theory, we likely clung to low land vegetation for supported at first eventually developed adaptations for more efficient walking.
However I found this when doing Ape to human relation research, so I’m not 100% on how plausible the theory still is since 2007 in terms of Expert responses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Savanna-based_theory
However the fossil record does seem to support it as bipedal features were also found with with tree climbing ones.
However, this could still work with RR’s thesis on 2 legs over 4 legs as rather than the efficiency explaining how we transitioned from knuckle-walking, it could explain why we went with bipedalism over knuckle-walking when adapting to ground life.
Furthermore, it could also explain transition from Orangutan Tree climbing in general as they aren’t 100% bipedal either, depending on the thickness of a branch to distribute there weight.
Our LCA was most likely a knuckle-walker. I don’t remember too much about him off the top of my head, I’ll check my book by Daniel Lieberman (paleoanthropologist, whose theory on endurance running inspired me to write this article) in a bit. Called “The Story of the Human Body”.
Phil and RR
“However the fossil record does seem to support it as bipedal features were also found with with tree climbing ones.”
“Our LCA was most likely a knuckle-walker.”
I don’t think our LCA was a knuckle walker instead it seems that chimps evolved knuckle walking after diverging, I think this explains why we became bipedal so “easily”.
“Two lineages began to emerge in this common ancestor. One appears to have focused on the quadrupedalism used in the trees, starting to use it on the ground. To make this method more efficient this branch eventually turned the flat footed quadrupedalism into the knuckle walking quadrupedalism present in chimps today.
The other focused on their bipedal ability, gradually making that more and more efficient until they could stride out of Africa and spread across the world.”
“lack of flexibility stems from the fact chimpanzees have lost a vertebrae, shortening their lower spine. Also, that spine is trapped between their tall iliac blades. This is to make their back more rigid, allowing them to knuckle walk with significantly less effort. Bonobos, an offshoot of chimps, have also shortened their spine but have done so in a different way. Chimps have fused two of their vetebrae together whilst bonobos have moved the spine upwards, shortening the lower part of it.
Given that out of humans, chimps and bonobos 2/3 of them have long spines it seems reasonable to conclude that their common ancestor had a long spine and the chimpanzee shortening is relatively recent.”
http://www.evoanth.net/2012/06/12/did-our-ancestors-knuckle-walk/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20855303
Can race confirm once and for all he is not a racist? There have been many allegations and i for one will not stand for a racism.
As all those famous footballers said: Say no to white tribalism. Sorry racism.
OPENTHEBOrDErsGoyim!!!
Until race realist proves he is not a racist i wont be reading this and face triggering myself and having an epileptic fit and vaginal discharge.
Athletics is about training not biology. Juat like personality height test and iq. Everyone knows that from mockingbird collages with pictures.
Philospher, can you please say something on-topic about RR’s post, that isn’t a joke. Thanks. Btw, I’m watching a Mel Gibson movie tonight so I can blog about him.
Racism is no laughing matter. I would never read such filth from a suspected rac-ist.
Can santo gust blog about the primate kingdom?
Can i giest blog about the evolution of the jewish people and how they evolved that unique barbarian brain with sophisticated wiring?
New kingdom and canaan to manhatten and gloablist world domination.
In comparison to PP’s article on comparing R “nerds” to K “jocks” types in regards to “advancement”, I find this more convincing with it’s investigation and comprehensive framework beating it on multiple perspectives.
Focusing on Mankind’s evolution of bipedalism, “Nerdicus” doesn’t really appear in the characterization of having an overall deficit of physical ability relative to it’s ancestors.
Yes, you have the more obvious brute strength that can be witness in great apes and likely our ancestors but then you have RR’s point on overall energy efficiency and development of endurance running.
It wasn’t really until around 10K that a true deficit starts to increase relative to the ability of our intra-species ancestors due to the effect of mismatch in agriculture yet at the same time selected for more IQ related mutations, thus a “Nerdicus” image occurs to define humans.
The problem though, that doesn’t necessarily mean that athletic ability itself was a disadvantage as much as it was hindered by the new pressures.
Even when comparing the pros and cons “R vs. K” strategy, Nerdicus doesn’t make much sense seeing how the actual difference between them is how to breed based on carry capacity rather than the importance of sexual competition or physical shape. Rather the difference expected would be what traits to be selected for in that respect.
Hell, RR’s article on fiber-typing shows that strength is correlated with lower mortality, showing it to be beneficial in a R environment.
In the scenario of “Nerd versus Jock”, the problem is that it is too simplistic as it focuses on a particular demographic of athletes.
The prevalence of a “jock” mindset and implications in general with athletics can be splintered as IQ is negatively correlated with obesity, attractiveness being positively correlated with IQ, athletes having better reaction times and not just reflexes, and how athletic participation is linked to future success.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1527002505279348
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/42/4/698/
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003465300558902#.WM8WTZArLrc
Interestingly enough, I did find info focusing on athletic participation being more linked with social resources for Blacks and Hispanics compared to academics, the later only being moderate in some cases.
http://search.proquest.com/openview/1d0d722af1cd2a80f97abea8d8bc6c90/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1819054
This suggest different implications of athletic participation between ethnic groups, possibly linked to R/K differences, rather than simply it being practice more in one than the other.
Interesting. Although I’ve read recently that attractiveness isn’t correlated with IQ at all, but perhaps with socially desired personality characteristics.
It does seem, though, within race, that athletic ability is correlated with more socially desirable personality and even cognitive characteristics. Across races, though, greater athleticism seems to equal more primitive qualities.
“Interesting. Although I’ve read recently that attractiveness isn’t correlated with IQ at all, but perhaps with socially desired personality characteristics.”
Well Kanazawa did find evidence with an association with IQ, rather personality was the one questioned that I don’t believe he specifically measured.
“It does seem, though, within race, that athletic ability is correlated with more socially desirable personality and even cognitive characteristics. Across races, though, greater athleticism seems to equal more primitive qualities.”
Is you latter inference based on perception or Data with the general association of athleticism and traits across races? If anything my data shows otherwise.
Here’s the study.
Click to access I2011.pdf
To GM,
On the otherhand, I could buy that having a singular interest in sports over other thing would be more “primitive”, but the problem comes is how representative that is to athletes as a whole?
It is also contradicted if we look at strength correlating with lower mortality making it beneficial in R selected people and reflects in racial competition of strength endurance.
To settle the confusion I think it would be best to properly define a “nerd”, a “Jock”, and “athleticism” in terms of ability while looking at correlations within and between races.
Your within/between race makes no sense, race isn’t a palpable reality, you can’t serve the black race on a plate, but you can serve someone’s balls on a plate, only individuals exist.
I’ll agree that athletes have more desirable personality, for the simple reason that they are happier and healthier.
But you want to put blacks down and you’re puzzled with the black athlete stereotype and the low consideration you have for blacks.
Be logical though. Yes, many of the top athletes in this world are black, but that doesn’t mean most blacks are athletes and that blacks are an “athletic race”. Most blacks in the world, including the US are actually malnourished (obese or stunted). So blacks are actually less fit/athletic than whites if you ignore pro-athletes.
Afro it makes no sense to include malnourished people in your assessment of black genetic athletic potential
It does, Gman says athletes are nice but blacks are not nice although they are supposed to be the most athletic race.
The truth is, blacks might have a potential to be better athletes and be nicer, but the current situation is that they are not reaching this potential because they are disproportionally obese or stunted.
The black athletes you see on TV aren’t representative of blacks as a whole.
When I say socially desirable personality, I don’t mean “niceness” per se.
“When I say socially desirable personality, I don’t mean “niceness” per se.”
Ah !? What do you mean then ? Also, do you get me when I say there can’t be a witin race/between race distinction ?
Like you can’t say within a race, tall people look better but between races, short races look better. So the best looking would be tall people from a short race. There is no such thing.
Why not..
for hymie…
why would BP be interested in algo trading?
shouldn’t BP be a hedger and not a speculator?
You could also argue are long-distance running ability evolved BECAUSE we were smart. Long distance running is kind of a useless talent unless:
1) you have the intelligence to track prey that have run so fast you can no longer see where they went
2) you have the intelligence to adapt to very distant environments that require you to learn new skills
“You could also argue are long-distance running ability evolved BECAUSE we were smart. Long distance running is kind of a useless talent unless:
1) you have the intelligence to track prey that have run so fast you can no longer see where they went.”
Except RR explained how cooking meat increased the hormonal sensibilities involved in hunting that fueled endurance running, so increased intelligence specifically was not required.
Furthermore, the point of endurance running is to make sure it is still within your line of sight by keeping up with it in long distances, not finding it over long distances.
In the aspect of tracking such an animal they would be usually still while grazing or drinking, not constantly sprinting nor very far from where a hominid population would live.
If a hominid adapted to trying to find prey after losing it, it would’ve developed adaptations for stealth to strike it a blow that would leave it immobile after a manageable distance and acute senses to find it again and kill it.
What you would be describing would fit better in tracking migratory animals which would make walking more apt than endurance running.
“2) you have the intelligence to adapt to very distant environments.”
How would that intelligence develop prior to the pressure rather than simultaneous to an aiding physical trait?
Except RR explained how cooking meat increased the hormonal sensibilities involved in hunting that fueled endurance running, so increased intelligence specifically was not required.
RR has also argued that cooking fueled our big brains (genes for big brains got more bang for their buck when they had the calories to reach their genetic potential), so were both endurance and big brains caused independently by cooking, or did cooking cause selection for endurance (endurance genes got more bang for their buck with nutrients) which caused selection for big brains? Or did it cause selection for big brains which caused selection for endurance?
Furthermore, the point of endurance running is to make sure it is still within your line of sight by keeping up with it in long distances, not finding it over long distances
Here I was thinking I was being original, but Wikipedia already documented my argument (and disagrees with you):
Due to the complexity of following a fleeing animal, tracking methods must have been a prerequisite for the use of endurance running in persistence hunting. Scientists posit that early tracking methods were developed in open, sparsely vegetated terrain such as the Kalahari Desert in southern Africa. This “systemic tracking” involves simply following the footprints of animals and was most likely used for tracking grassland species on soft terrain. Skeletal remains suggest that during the Middle Stone Age, hominins used systemic tracking to scavenge for medium-sized animals in vegetation cover, but for hunting antelope in more open grasslands. From the Middle Stone Age into the Later Stone Age, tracking methods developed into what is termed “speculative tracking”. When tracks could not easily be found and followed, Homo predicted where tracks were most likely to be found and interpreted other signs to locate prey.[7] This advanced method of tracking allowed for the exploitation of prey in a variety of terrains, making endurance running for persistence hunting more plausible.
Apes aren’t smart enough to follow footprints. It requires incipient human intellect. This could also help explain the evolution of social intelligence (theory of mind), since trackers have to be good at guessing where an animal might try to hide.
Lots of animals are good at following indirect signs like odors. But as far as our genus in concerned, I can’t tell, apes don’t seem to hunt and scavenge a lot.
Any fool with a good nose can instinctively follow smell, but following footprints requires the ability to make inferences (understanding that stepping on the ground leaves a print and realizing they’re a delayed indicator of the animal’s location and using that infer current location)
“RR has also argued that cooking fueled our big brains (genes for big brains got more bang for their buck when they had the calories to reach their genetic potential), so were both endurance and big brains caused independently by cooking, or did cooking cause selection for endurance (endurance genes got more bang for their buck with nutrients) which caused selection for big brains? Or did it cause selection for big brains which caused selection for endurance?”
I didn’t say increased intelligence due to diverted energy didn’t occur, I just brought to attention that changes in hormonal sensibilities was what drove higher participation in hunting rather than specifically intelligence.
“Apes aren’t smart enough to follow footprints. It requires incipient human intellect. This could also help explain the evolution of social intelligence (theory of mind), since trackers have to be good at guessing where an animal might try to hide.”
Well if you read that article again, before the need of endurance running the “ape” already did follow tracks, they just weren’t adapted to follow those of more evasive animals which require more speculation, which I believe would require higher intelligence.
The thing is though would’ve require intellect to using different looking at new variables themselves to figure out where the prey fled rather than “mirroring” the behavior of the prey.
Predicting where tracks would be found could simply be due to familiarity with patterns of the animal rather than thinking in the animal’s place.
As for the criticism with persistence hunting, here is a response.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3743587/2007i.pdf?sequence=1
To Afro and PP,
Chimps do regularly hunt,
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150728-chimps-nearly-wiped-out-monkeys
But ones in the savanna apparently also make weapons to hunt, oddly enough.
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/innovative-female-chimps-may-have-pioneered-tool-use-hunting/
Couldn’t find much on tracking but some cognition is used in regular hunts through different roles.
https://books.google.com/books?id=WvEKCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=do+chimpanzee+track+prey&source=bl&ots=TmEfZfZlqy&sig=VsCzzk_1sa2ccwcieky-oCKI0Vk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAgeG_7-XSAhXI5CYKHflBA4AQ6AEIRjAH#v=onepage&q=do%20chimpanzee%20track%20prey&f=false
“Chimps do regularly hunt,”
Anecdotally, some researches have claimed bears can cover their tracks, which hints at a kind of self awareness.
http://trumpeter.athabascau.ca/index.php/trumpet/article/view/473/789
Wouldn’t hunting an intelligent animal require greater intelligence?
Like a feedback loop.
Melo look up the Red Queen hypothesis. I just bought a book on it by Matt Ridley yesterday.
Basically, two competing species will co-evolve with each other in a feed back loop. Take a parasite. As the host evolves protections against the parasite, the parasite evolves ways to get around it, the host evolves protections, etc and that’s how evolution occurs. I’ve not gotten into the book yet, only the beginning. It’s based on an ‘arms race’, you need more ‘arms’ to best your opponent.
That’s pretty much what you described there and is a plus for the Red Queen. I’ve read similar things with animals and hunters.
Indeed. For example cuddlefish are incredibly smart cephalopods and it just so happens that dolphins love to eat them.
“You could also argue are long-distance running ability evolved BECAUSE we were smart.”
Oh you. . .
True, you can. I’d like to see a substantial argument on that case.
“1) you have the intelligence to track prey that have run so fast you can no longer see where they went”
Skoyles covered this in his expertise/IQ paper. !Kung Bushmen go out to hunt with more experienced members to get experience and eventually become ‘experts’.
Even with intelligence, without our efficient bipedality, we wouldn’t have been able to catch something that had the ability to sprint away, with us having no sweating capabilities. Intelligence is nothing if your body isn’t adapted correctly. Take us today, then take away all of our adaptations from endurance running. Would we be the same—would we be able to do what we do now? Would we be able to maintain what we’ve built for ourselves? No.
“2) you have the intelligence to adapt to very distant environments that require you to learn new skills”
You also have to factor in dumb luck. A dumb luck event can have a certain positive allele spread through the population until it reaches fixation. Not everything comes down to intelligence. The amount of luck that hinged on us being here today is incredible.
Then think of selection, both natural and sexual. It’s not all about intelligence. Bipedal/endurance efficiency was paramount in our evolution. This, (not) oddly enough occurred right around the time our buddy Erectus got moving too, same with the increase of brain size, humanlike gait and posture, pelvis and the beginnings of cultural transference and acquisition… Hmmm…
A Meditation on Rac-ism
One of the greatest findings of tge psychologist Ivan Pavlov was to discover that dogs could be conditioned to drool or feel fear at the sound of a bell upon repeated exposures to stimulus. Since then work at the tavistock institute proceeded apace to discover more general applications of the psychological sciences to effect social engineering. A leader in this new vista made practical by mass communications and imagery was edward bernays, nephew of the so called founder of psychology, sigmund freud.
The basis of rac-ism is a marxist yearning for equality. After all how can the workers share in the surplus of a workers paradise if they are not all equal? But of course among the bolsheviks a certain race of man was more equal than the others. 8/9 members of the first central committee were of a certain minority which has agitated for social change among its host empires for centuries.
When you consider they control all the media one must venture forth the surprusing realisation one does not know much about the jews. This is purposeful.
Which leads me back to bernays, himself a chosen one.
Rac-ism is as ibherently powerful a concept as the word ‘witchcraft’ once was. But a higher iq tool of compliance as it leeches on an element of empathy of the gentile host and further, is associated with drcades of imagery in their media to form subconscious pavlonian neural routines.
Can you type the word nigger without flinching?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
You dont need mind control brain chips. The schizos are right in the intent of The Other. Not the means. We are wored to see predatorial intent. Unfortunately not many have high iq to see more sophiticated crimes than credit card fraud.
Judge a predator by the complexity of its crime.
Zion commits crimes against nature. Look at kim nobles paintings.
This plays into my belief that the most successful people (at least in the fields that matter: business/law, where you have power over the public. Not so much in academia) are nerdy jocks or jocky nerds. They’re the rare individuals that have 110+ IQs and can dominate on the athletic field or throw a punch if they have too. They’re a special breed and they’re built for success.
Before I get the time to read and reread this post, take part in the ongoing conversations and give a more detailed commentary, I have a couple of words to say:
[question directed at PP redacted by PP, march 20, 2017]
-Secondly, no one can really make a solid point if they haven’t overviewed each of RR’s 46 scholary references.
-Thirdly, the links between the evolution of athleticism and cognition are quite obvious. You have noticed it, nerds are often clumsy, slow, they suck at practical tasks. Have you ever worked or played ball with guys like that ? Their behavior is not akin to slacking off, they really try their best but fail.
In a soccer game, they are never at the right place at their right moment, they are unable to follow a collective strategy, they have no spatial understanding of what’s going on, they miss balls or when they catch it, they just don’t know what to do with it. You can’t communicate efficiently with them because they’re just out of it.
The worst thing is that they push you to foul, either because they are small and you don’t realize your strength or because their behavior is so incoherent that you lose your cool in confusion. Some times they just freak out and give up the ball mindlessly when the big dude comes on them. So it always ends up with the big/able bodied dudes playing with each other, largely ignoring the lame ones.
If you ask me if I had a first hand experience with stupidity, I’d say yes, in gym class in high school.
Disclaimer: I am not defending RR’s post because it’s RR or because it’s in some aspects a follow up of the first part of mine. I’m not either favoring this hypothesis because it has no racial implications or because it’s flattering to the jock I am. The plain truth is that no theory of evolution has so little flaws and holes, everything adds up and it relates to observable universal patterns of human nature.
“-Secondly, no one can really make a solid point if they haven’t overviewed each of RR’s 46 scholary references.”
It took me 9 days to write/research/read everything I cited. I put a lot of work into this.
Lern2speedread guys.
“-Thirdly, the links between the evolution of athleticism and cognition are quite obvious. You have noticed it, nerds are often clumsy, slow, they suck at practical tasks. Have you ever worked or played ball with guys like that ? Their behavior is not akin to slacking off, they really try their best but fail.”
This. Think of this in terms of evolutionary history. Sure the guy is smart, ‘has a big brain’, can ‘cognitively adapt his situation to his advantage’ (wait!). Except…. . . .
. . .
Since he’s so discombobulated, he would have gotten eaten alive by a leopard millions of years ago. Look to the citation I provided that said that an athlete who wants to break world records not only needs a strong body but a strong mind. Without the body, we don’t have our mind. These thoughts have been in my head since I started reading Intelligence in the Flesh.
Further, just giving the ball up is a sign of low self-confidence. I like your thoughts on sports and evolution, they make a lot of sense.
I didn’t mention race in the article (surprise!) and I didn’t mean for it to have any racial implications so anyone reading this thinking of modern races, don’t.
But yea, talking about recent human nature, we need to talk more about Erectus. He did so much and is the reason why we are all here.
“It took me 9 days to write/research/read everything I cited. I put a lot of work into this.”
Congrats. I knew you were preparing something great. Moreover, I think you managed to make something smooth, not to technical for laymen.
“Look to the citation I provided that said that an athlete who wants to break world records not only needs a strong body but a strong mind.”
I’ll review all your links later on, it’s a duty. But, the fact that an athlet needs a strong mind is common sense. Too few people on here understand all the facets of sports.
“I like your thoughts on sports and evolution, they make a lot of sense.”
I guess we’ve been through the same things in different settings. You’re a trainer, I don’t have technical expertise but I’m rather good in the psychological aspect. Although I might come off as mocking on here, I’m always motivational and pedagogue with my team-mates or adversaries when I play, I like to see the joy and pride in their eyes when they achieve something, I like to see them grow.
That’s why I don’t believe that non-athletic people genuinely despise athletic performance, they turned their back out of frustration. One of your source says that when boys grow up, they start naturally willing to compete in physical exercice, then gradually, when they fail and lose confidence, they compete in alternative disciplines because top sports like soccer and football, which mobilise every hunting and warfare related skills are out of reach to them. By the time of adolescence, the less apt give up all physical activity.
“But yea, talking about recent human nature, we need to talk more about Erectus. He did so much and is the reason why we are all here.”
Yep, and I’d like people to slow down with Neanderthals, they are a diverging lineage and aren’t really relevant to our evolution, Erectus is as he is our ancestor.
Sport also fulfils tribal tendencies Race. Why did you leave that bit out? Its a tribal proxy for the nationalism the goys are not allowed to have in case the top 1% get their feathers ruffled.
Sport is definitive proof Zion’s quest for globalism will not be successful.
Please stop using your username to troll.
I just wanted to make sure people know I’m only a small ‘r’ rac-ist/witch/infidel unbeliever/heretic.
I think we need more diversity, not less! its like basketball where we have players in wheelchairs, old grandmothers, a baby seal and that kid with the broken glasses on our team.
DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
THATS NOT WHO WE ARE
Sur les Creatures Magiques
A strange new idol was imagined by Bernie Bernstein in 1962.
On a muggy San Francisco summer afternoon, Bernie had been chewing his pencil wondering how to gain acceptance into the hallowed Doxton Member’s Golf Club. Conventional as it might be to desire membership among the city’s elites, Bernie considered himself anti-conventional. Anti-establishment.
Yet he was only unconventional in method but not goals – true as it was that he was motivated to attain membership out of spite, and hatred, more than a genuine desire to reduce his handicap.
Many drawings were done that weekend – strange and wonderful creatures with wings, horns, multicoloured manes and ghastly claws. It just didn’t quite fit the bill.
He needed something with more shock value. An idol to appeal to our better halves. What would cause someone to want to take one into their home and raise it like their own?
And then he realised to his astonishment, that the greatest trojan horse was the least suspected of deviousness. The least powerful. The least wealthy. He looked at the kind maid who was mixing his sherry coke.
A new drawing was made.
And henceforth, we came to believe in The Magic Negro.
Jimmy is very disappointing with his sentiments on the other thread.
1. HBD is not a jewish ideological mind control tool. Its ridiculous you would say that. The whole point of PC and race creationism is to deny genetic criteria for behaviours and outcomes.
2. The IQ hierarchy is kind of right. You could say it goes the other way on social intelligence though B>W>A. Its linked to quant aptitude. A composite ‘IQ’ of all types of intelligence – spatial, reaction, memory, verbal, quant, musical, social, intuition etc would be more balanced. But that’s not what you mean by IQ.
3. The Jews really are more intelligent. That’s empirical. Its not worth rehashing this as I’ve already discussed this at length with JS. Suffice to say intelligence is getting the most resources for the least effort – physical, pain or probability of death.
4. Whites are not bigger than blacks. Size is linked to testosterone. Black women are much larger than all other races of woman. Steve Sailer has demonstrated that in humanity there is sub-saharans and non sub-saharans linked to the intermixing with neanderthals genetics.
5. Citadel is an impressive shop. Ken Griffen has autism. Listen to him speak. Look at the sincere stupidity look in his eyes. You must be a very accomplished computer scientist I suspect.
6. You and Robert need to get it through your heads that you don’t need to watch a video of your wife doing another guy to tell if she’s cheating. Even the line ‘I’m going out to a club with the girls’ is laced with the intention of cheating. The basis of genetics in terms of test, IQ, personality and neurological leaning is patently obvious. How can you deny it? Its why we care most about reproducing – its important for the Algorithm to sort appropriately. The tools aren’t there yet, or the math isn’t quite complex. You have 2 ways of knowing something in this world – common sense and empirical experience. Use them. Stop getting lost in semantics and chasing dragons over hillocks. Its embarrassing.
Finally someone who make sense !
I always make sense. I don’t make sense or seem ‘crazy’ to people with dyslexia or total hacks like Afro who are not here to debate openly but spew slogans and copy and paste advertising copy.
One of Jimmy’s best assets is that he asks very oblique questions. One of the things that’s underrated about that is of course is that even people with another 20 IQ points on Jimmy will see diminished returns precisley because the quality of the questions is boring, habitual even sophomoric. Like gypsyman, who is also credible in cognition.
This is where the schizo tendency to arts and the music comes in. If you habitually drive off road you’re bound to find a new location to holiday.
Hitler was an artist. It doesn’t suprise me at all that he honed in on the real problem in this world from day one even though many eminent scientists and philosophers from Germany/Austria were alive at the time.
A composite ‘IQ’ of all types of intelligence – spatial, reaction, memory, verbal, quant, musical, social, intuition etc would be more balanced. But that’s not what you mean by IQ.
In theory IQ tests are excellent measures of g which is supposed to influence ALL cognitive abilities, including the cognitive abilities not tested on IQ tests
So an IQ test that measured all forms of intelligence should correlate quite well with conventional IQ tests, in theory
Its obvious social and musical intelligence are inversely correlated to quant. Likewise, people with strong verbal tend not to be good at math and vice versa. Memory is a more complicated one because emotions are key to binding the memory to the neurons.
In deep states of relaxation at meetings, conference calls or senior management speeches about diversity I remember moments, feelings even the ‘aura’ of childhood. And I mumble ‘I remember’.
My limbic system shut down 10 years ago due to my condition, but before it I could sense and ‘feel’ the world around me – this is the limbic system for memory imprinting.
Humans have 6 senses – the 6th is what I call ‘aura’. You don’t know you have it until you lose it. Its the feeling of walking into Greenwich long hall and ‘feeling’ the gravitas and history or sensing at an intuitive level the character and life of a person or the period of life in a song. When you listen to the 50s music, you sense the wonder and innocence of the period.
Its a type of metaphysical instinct.
I have a very exceptional verbal ability and its hard for me to put a word on it. But aura works for now.
Its obvious social and musical intelligence are inversely correlated to quant. Likewise, people with strong verbal tend not to be good at math and vice versa.
If you could prove that it would debunk 100 years of psychometric research which consistently finds ALL cognitive abilities are positively correlated.
Most social, musical or verbal geniuses have at least slightly above average math ability
Most social, musical, or verbal retardates are at least slightly below average in math
Now if you’re looking at elites where almost everyone is high in g, then you might find a negative correlation between abilities but in the general population the correlations should all be positive, unless you’re right and 100 years of research is wrong
That’s the whole basis for g. Read Jensen
How would social and musical correlate if you can’t measure it?!
” The IQ hierarchy is kind of right. ”
The problem with you phil is that you give preference to theory over reality.
Your eyes see european superiority from Greece to the present day but little pieces of paper called IQ tests say jews and asians are superior.
The difference between me and you is that i believe what my eyes see.
you read about jews controlling the federal reserve and american foreign policy and you think ” wow the jews are the master race ” but when i see that i think ” Russia would never tolerate this. China would never tolerate this . Why are we allowing the jews to do this ? ”
There is not a single real world physical demonstration of jewish or asian superior intelligence.
The aeroplane, the computer, the train, electricity, the internet, astrophysics, quantum physics, all of it is the creation of people of European decent.
Can you name me a single major asian invention? can you name me a single major jewish invention that has changed the world?
The idea that europeans are genetically inferior to the hook nose parasites and the yellow midgets is something that only mentally disabled people could believe.
Clearly HBD is a mental disorder that disables the frontal loab.
You’re blinded by hatred. Its kind of ironic I have to point this out. Look I’m the first guy in the trenches with ya buddy, but the reality is the reality.
Major Asian inventions – paper money, gunpowder, movable type, compass, clock, advanced robotics, advanced consumer electronics, video game software
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_inventions_and_discoveries#Transport
You can google all this. China isn’t the oldest (or more aspergers) civilisation by coincidence. The Emperor of Heaven or precursor warlords dates from even before Pharaoh for context.
Jews dominate most academic fields. They are 1% of the population – finance, psychology, theoretical physics, math, linguistics, medicine, economics.
The main fields where they lack are applied math fields – comp sci, engineering, chemistry/pharmaceuticals.
Its obvious the asians have higher quant IQ if you walk around caltech’s engineering school. And jews have a more verbal slant hence the predomination in theortical fields. Verbal predicts some math aptitude, but not the other way around.
Verbal is most g loaded because idiots mistake it for dictionary studies. Its propositional logic. It could be done with hieroglyphics or paintings. In fact it was
Who talks about ‘genetic inferiority’?
Asian inventiveness is clearly inferior to West euro accomplishment. Check out “human accomplishment” by Charles murray.
Its seems like phil has yellow fever
” advanced robotics ”
The first robot was invented by George Devol .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot
“Video game software ”
The first computer game was a chess simulation developed by Alan Turing and David Champernowne called Turochamp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_games
“consumer electronics ”
Consumer electronics could not exist today without the invention of the transistor, which is purely the invention of European-americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor
also the TV, the radio, the computer, the cell phone were all invented by people of European decent.
Whits create Asians emulate.
HBD cultists like Rushton say that the reason europeans are more innovative than asians is because of culture but the HBD cult says that culture is genetic.
So what is it ? If innovation is cultural and culture is genetic then europeans must be genetically superior to the yellow men right ?
HBD is a mental disorder that is pushed by useful idiots.
I never knew that recognizing what your eyes see could be so difficult.
it reminds of this Orwell quote :
To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.
Your jew stuff is even sillier than your asians nonsense.
just do the math.
there are ~192 million white americans and ~5 million jews
if the cutoff for genius is 145 IQ then there will always be more whte geniuses than jews.
The idea that jews rise to the top of academia because they are superior to whites is something that only a mental midget would say.
The jews rise to the top because we are too nice for our own good.
The jews could never do what they do in real nations like Russia or China .
the jews rise to the top because they are tribal savages who view the individualist european americans as easy pickings.
whenever there is a clash between organized tribalism and individualism, tribalism always wins.
And don’t give me that nonsense about nobel prizes . You and i both know that nobel is a famous jewish surname.
“HBD is a mental disorder that is pushed by useful idiots.”
Jimmy,
If different races have different areas where they are superior then that means that genetically that trait where they are superior will be the defining feature by which we say their intelligence is highest genetically in that area.
If you give any credence to (g), mine is 130. yet I am on average 113. What does this mean? I have areas where I am slow and areas where I am high. The same is true for the different races. Asians are superior when is comes to rote learning. Whites are superior in innovation. Jews at linguistics and Blacks at sports. If HBD is a cult then you only say so because you don’t get why they call Asian superior. They are superior at Rote learning. But you think because intelligence is more than rote learning that that HBD must be a cult. That is stupid, yes intelligence is more than rote learning but that does not mean whites are superior to Asians at rote learning. Each race is superior in a different way and that is why differences exist. Can you understand what that means? Differences exist so why call HBD a cult. The only reason is that you find rote learning a stupid definition of intelligence and that means whites are superior because they have superior innovations. But just because whites do have superior innovations does mean Asians are different from whites. To deny that differences exist and then say because white are different that they are superior makes no sense. Either differences do exist or they don’t. You cannot deny Asians are superior at rote learning. What you disagree on is that rote learning is a superior form of intelligence. Calling HBD a cult and then agreeing with the main points is cognitive dissonance on your part. You believe innovation is a superior form of intelligence but does that mean differences don’t exist?
I would say that because my (g) is 130 that I understand allot. But whereas my originality is high my rote learning is low(113). This is a barrier for me. I have ideas that most people don’t have but I also lack in other creative areas. I said in another comment that intelligence is self-regulation. Genes are a mechanism for self-regulation. People tend to follow a certain form of intelligence because of they way the energy in their brain is regulated. That is why my sister can draw photorealistic I can’t. It is a difference of where the energy in the brain is being directed. IQ tests do measure differences in energy regulation. that is how we know that each race has areas where regulation is superior. This does not mean that the full potential has been measured but that the functionality of people as they are right now has been measured statically. I scored 86 on processing speed and 132 on Verbal. 95 on working memory and 121 on perceptual. My scores average out to 113. – I can see that when it comes to race that the same thing would happen where each race would have different scores in different areas. Maybe like you said that if people had not been nutrient deficient that genetically the score would be different but that does not take away from the fact that the measurements are what they currently are. My scores do represent my current abilities in those subtest areas. Overall I am not good at rote learning. But if maybe I had a better way to self-regulate then I would score higher than I do now in the different subtests.
Tests don’t measure everything but I would say that what they do measure they measure accurately enough.
yet hymie is more materialistic than most jews.
conclusion:
hymie is a jew.
sad!
but thanks for the self-hate.
It’s pretty funny when an anti-Semite has to tell another anti-Semite that he’s being too much of an anti-Semite
Seriously though, you have to have brain damage to think Europeans are more inventive than asians. Asians lead the world in innovation, and the only asians countries that don’t are either tropical, or china. China is not very innovative(except maybe hong kong) but they still have our economy by the balls.
Their IQ scores reflect this, and jimmy believes the same otherwise he wouldn’t of thrown a temper tantrum about how smart we perceive him. Jews couldn’t control jack shit if they weren’t smarter than gentiles.
melo , put up or shut up
$10k
” yet hymie is more materialistic than most jews.”
for people like you anyone who lives well is materialistic.
but what else would we expect form a guy who babysits power tools for a living.
I remember you mentioning that you were fired because you were a slow thinker lol what an inferior
“melo , put up or shut up
$10k”
Repetitive, further evidence whites are not that creative. Are you that desperate for cash?
Didn’t pumpkin already indulge your insecurities? Either way it’s point one for me, if you think an IQ score is reflective of your intelligence then it’s also reflective of east asian and jewish intelligence
CAT
your case is fascinating as you clearly have many mental problems but you managed to get a 1470 on the SAT.
I understand that the SAT is an achievement test and not an IQ test, but the fact that someone with all your problems could do so well is amazing.
I think you are a perfect example of what i was talking about when i said that nutrition preconception , during pregnancy and in the early years of life is a major factor in cognitive ability.
I was speaking about this to someone recently and he told me that as a kid all he ate garbage and i was shocked by that .
When i was a kid my mom stuffed me with greens , fish , nuts and even seeds.
I remember my mom would grind up sesame seeds and make a drink from them .
I also remember from a very young age my mother would make me take cod liver oil every night.
I remember watching my mother when she was pregnant with my younger brother and she was taking prenatal supplements, and eating a lot of fish , nuts and seeds.
I would say that during my childhood years i had a nutritional status that was in the top 0,01%.
What would be the case if everyone had the upper middle class upbringing that i had?
only a crazy person thinks that nutrition doesn’t have a huge impact .
Cat has major problems and yet he has an IQ of 113. I bet that if Cat’s mother had the same level of nutrition as my mother before he was born and had the same level of nutrition that i did as a child then he would have a much higher IQ.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Cats real IQ was 130.
the saddest thing about Melo is that when i say asians he thinks i’m referring to Filipinos.
In the US when we say asians we are referring to the superior east asians not some Filipino boat people.
” if you think an IQ score is reflective of your intelligence then it’s also reflective of east asian and jewish intelligence”
Anyone from an upper middle class family can do well on those silly little IQ tests.
the fact that a wannabe east asian like you thinks that IQ tests are hard or a true reflection of intelligence just goes to show how dumb Filipinos are.
“when i say asians he thinks i’m referring to Filipinos.”
Lol, no I don’t. Your low VIQ is showing again.
“a true reflection of intelligence”
And what idiot doesn’t think IQ correlates with intelligence? You can try and argue all day, but the proof is objectively visible.
Being apart of the upper class is a sign of intelligence to begin with. You can’t say you’re smart because you make money but then detract on that when it feels convenient.
As much as it pains me to say, I’m with Melo on this one.
there are ~192 million white americans and ~5 million jews
If the cutoff for genius is 145 IQ then there will always be more whte geniuses than jews.
The idea that jews rise to the top of academia because they are superior to whites is something that only a mental midget would say.
You don’t see an inconsistency here?
The jews could never do what they do in real nations like Russia or China
They did it with the Bolsheviks and again under Yeltsin/(((Khordovski))))
I think once again you’re making the wrong inference – just because someone has a higher quant/low verbal or higher verbal/low empathy does not mean they are ‘superior’.
You and JS have a remarkable hangup about any perceived weakness of Euros. Its pretty obvious Europeans acheived the most because they had a good blend of empathy, testosterone, above average verbal and quant and good geography.
Its the blend that matters not the individual ingredients.
The ability to solve problems is all due to the fact that intelligence is a type of motion detection. The brain is used to move the body by paying attention to the internal and external reality. Social intelligence is the ability to recognize the motion of the internal states of people. Music is the motion of sound. Engineering is the motion of mechanical devices. On IQ tests it is all about becoming the motion of the items on the test. To do this the brain must be connected to itself in the right way. The more intelligent you are the more you are able to become the motion of the world.
Creativity is the combination of motions the brain becomes as it connects to itself. It is about self-regulation. The regulation mechanism is how we know how to move. When you understand the motion of the world you can control it. Regulation leads to control (Cybernetics). That is how they know at the top of Deep State how to control the masses. They understand their motion. The attractor states by which motion falls into place. A network that has a certain regulation has a certain behavior and will interact with other networks predictably in simulations. A network that pulls itself into a pattern can be understood as a level of intelligence. Because intelligence is detected by the motion of an agent.
There is not intelligence without motion. And because there is motion there is an attention mechanism that guides thoughts and intuitions. People that can discover how to internally regulate themselves can become more intelligent. Personality and creativity can be modeled. Artificial intelligence as a personality construct is a stable regulation mechanism of information processing, to detect internal motion and external motion and to control it.
Macron might be the worst politican alive at this moment.
His positions are esentially neoconservativism i.e. Zionist shill.
More defence spending, open borders liquidation of gentiles, cut taxes on the rich and probably club baby seals on the weekend.
Is there a more sickening stomach churning candidate in Europe?
Maybe Tony Blair who like Macron is a slimy gamma sociopath.
“He’s a sort of caricature of everything we oppose” – Le Pen
No. Literally – Rothschild banker, shifty look, drab filibuster speeches, neocon, placed to be Hollande’s economic minister after Hollande was blackmailed.
Tut Tut. Zion is getting messy. The previous agents had charm like Bill Clinton and Blair. Now they are openly slimy ‘caricatures’ of the evil Necromancer’s baleful will.
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c6fc94bfeea50b6e1fcb62502272f57a-c
I knew a guy who worked for Rothschild. Only psychopath I’ve ever met.
“In fact contrary to my opinion, and the conventional wisdom”
Conventional wisdom ? Like the sun revolving around planet earth ? C’mon…
What’s conventional wisdom is that athleticism is universally praised in men, and on a personal level, being fit and physically competent increases self-confidence and gives an edge in your social relationships. You can’t tell me nerds achieve that through other means.
As far as women, a rounder (thick) body has been the universal cultural norm for most of history. I suspect that feminism has pushed a new ideal of a skinny shapeless female body that would make women look like skinny dudes, hence making them equal to men. But the true women that make most men find sexually attractive remain the thick pornstars, strippers, escort girls… A catwalk model can only be attractive to a bisexual man or a pedophile.
I actually get tingles listening to the chorus.
Many of the commenters think Scriabin plays his own piece too slow, or its a faulty recording.
Having listened to the various versions, this is the best one. It is exactly how it should be played. Such subtelty, grace and good cadence. Scriabin was a sickler for form even though he was all over the place mentally. You can see proto pop music with the verse chorus verse type ABA End C, even though the veneer is classical.
I never studied sheet music or care too much about ‘theory’, as music is completely intuitive (and why blacks don’t have any disadvantage here). You can have music without any form like jazz or a repetitive AAAAA with verbalisation like rap.
But Scriabin is easily the most technically advanced musician of the 20th century. Its unlike anything I’ve ever heard and I listen to every genre. How can one man have two completely different styles – Romantic and Gothic?
Fis Dur is probably his most emotionally powerful Romantic Era piece.
Apparently his string pieces are heavy hitters, but I’m generally more into classical piano. I’ve never listened to Wagner, maybe I should.
The French had a great civilisation. Now its a third world dumping ground.
Sad!
Interesting, but why so off-topic? Be more respectful of race realist and PP.
Endurance running might have evolved because humans could stand on two legs, rather than four. It is probably just a natural result of that upright position. I do not see why other mammalians otherwise could not evolve to endure running (they are hunters too) as much as humans.
So the whole athlete argument boils down to our ability to walk and run on two legs. Just a theory…
yes it could be that bipedalism itself is just more suitable for long distance movement, idk.
“So the whole athlete argument boils down to our ability to walk and run on two legs. Just a theory…”
Maybe. Maybe not. There are adaptations we have that cannot be explained by simply just adapting to bipedalism. Our large glueus maximus (which began with Erectus) is most important:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/209/11/2143
Of course there are some naysayers arguing that endurance running didn’t drive our evolution. He wrongly states that it’s about what drove the evolution of our bipedalism
That’s not the only argument against the endurance running hypothesis. Wikipedia notes:
It is thought that the earliest members of Homo lived in African savanna-woodlands.[10] This environment consisted of open grassland, as well as parts with dense vegetation—an intermediate between forest and open savannas. The presence of such tree covering would reduce visibility and so require tracking skills. This causes problems for the hypothesis of persistence hunting and running to aid scavenging.
Erectus footprints that were humanlike found that are 1.5 my old.
Click to access 10.1126%40science.1168132.pdf
They had humanlike behavior already, controlling fire around that time. Evidence suggests they hunted, and Lieberman et al show that Erectus must have tracked game.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3743587/2007i.pdf?sequence=1
We have too many adaptations that cannot be explained only by walking—endurance running must then explain it due to what we know about the human body.
men are much weaker than apes but can run long distances without overheating. men can outrun horses. this may be adaptation to the heat of the savannah and hunting by chasing until the beast fatigues.
I think the horse wins that race most years, but perhaps the fastest long distance humans feel the contest is beneath them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
this may be adaptation to the heat of the savannah and hunting by chasing until the beast fatigues.
You might expect millions of years of such hunting would select for high endurance beasts in Africa who could escape human hunters
According to the Red Queen hypothesis, this should be the case. Predators and prey ever-adapting based on the pressures of the other. An evolutionary arms race (ala Dawkins) so to speak.
it’s so stupid. this diet and exercise thing. the big C still asks why.
great doc peepee should watch. Be Here Now. funny, in a way, that at the very end when the wife and hero (andy whitfield) had concluded that he’d die from lymphoma the cameras were shut off. it’s pathetic, but it looked like the documentary was started as a marketing gimmick for whitfield’s acting career. i still wonder if death from cancer is always painful or if it can be like carbon monoxide…just a loss of energy.
athero, diabetes, and cancer account for 90% of deaths in the rich world and close to it in the poor world. right?
the means of avoiding or reducing athero is known, a fortiori type ii diabetes.
how to avoid cancer is largely un-known.
seriously…
Be Here Now is interesting…not because andy whitfield is interesting but because he’s dying.
but whitfield was extremely good looking and he had an above average IQ.
gas chamber for hymie.
sad!
but necessary.
another documentary for peepee is The Red Pill.
obviously there are explanations other than bias against men for all the stats, but the point of film is correct. the MRAs are all quite un-attractive, but no more than radical feminists. the MRAs sound reasonable. the feminists sound ill-informed. this was a surprise.
the point is that if women really want equality they’ll have to accept some of the ways in which being male is a disadvantage.
it’s funny how so many ways in which being male is worse are dismissed as biology. suicide, crime, death in battle or on the job, lower graduation rates, etc. whereas the ways in which being female are worse are explained as discrimination. and any males who bring these things up are dismissed as whiners and creepy losers.
the best single line from the movie was…
women are sex objects. men are “success” objects.
it would be better if there were more female ceos and politicians. i agree. but anything shy of perfect equality should not be explained as the result of bias. women’s sports are boring for fuck’s sake.
…of the film…
it’s another movie peepee should review.
and it is HORROR. real horror. not pretend horror.
the only mistake whitfield made was delaying his second round of chemo by 3 weeks to go to india.
but maybe he knew he’d die soon anyway…at some level.
cancer is like HIV. as long as the population of cancer cells is small it’s very un-likely to produce chemo resistant cells.
it’s what happened to my dog.
the chemo kept his cancer in check, but after 6 mos it was making him sick. vomiting every day.
i stopped it. his cancer grew.
i started it again.
it was ineffective.
his cancer had evolved.
so if you ever have cancer i recommend that after the chemo you…
there is no after. sometimes there is. but you can never know.
you have chemo for the rest of your life.
there’s even a name for it.
“metronomic chemotherapy”.
I’ll for these films on youtube/Netflix
you can watch them for free.
just type “let me watch this” into google.
RR’s fasting is the best prophylactic for cancer as far as i know; it lowers IGF.
but at most it only halves IGF.
what am i talking about?
one theory of cancer is that the rate of mutation is about the same for everyone, but some people are simply unlucky in that their mutations cause cancer. there’s almost nothing one can do. it’s just a matter of luck.
this theory explains almost everything except for the very rare genetic cancers. retinoblastoma and some forms of breast cancer.
but there’s a FACT which this theory does NOT explain.
laron dwarves are IMMUNE to cancer. they die from athero.
it’s not a “National Inquirer” story. it’s REALITY.
one interpretation:
1. everyone’s body is full of cancer cells.
2. there is some organism level condition which turns cancer cells into cancer.
Mug of Pee, what do you think of RR’s theory that fat people should not diet?
depends on what’s meant by “diet”.
if diet means something temporary then i agree.
if it’s something permanent then it works…usually.
missing richard simmons is interesting.
haven’t i said it before…
almost no one can stay fat or get fat on a paleo diet.
the HUGE problem is that a paleo diet is expensive.
in the developed world.
really.
it’s sad!
but funny thing i learned just yesterday…
hummus has a very low glycemic index.
so you can cheat…if you know how.
i would’ve guessed hummus was like baked beans…super high GI.
but it’s NOT!
Great news! I LOVE hummus.
RR hates diets because they slow your metabolism & release hormones that make you hungrier. But what’s the alternative? He seems to think going low carb but not worrying about calories is the answer & he doubts obesity causes death. But i think too many people crave carbs for low carb diets to work longterm
Too bad alcohol causes throat cancer. I guess that even applies to red whine.
alcohol does NOT cause cancer of any kind.
this a YUGE myth.
once all the confounds are accounted for.
well except liver cancer…
but only after cirrhosis.
and cirrhosis is rare even among the worst alcoholics.
hymie is NOT a convincing sockpuppet peepee.
Obesity only causes death past BMI 40 people. If people with high BMIs exercise, they will live longer than people with lower BMIs who do not. Obesity is only a factor past BMI 40 (even then, the BMI scale needs to change, both in general and for blacks).
Fitness, not fatness, predicts all-cause mortality:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033062013001552
Read:
http://www.sandraaamodt.com/?p=146
“it lowers IGF”
That’s a good thing since IGF-1 is linked to high insulin and other deleterious health outcomes.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone
Fasting increases HGH and does not eat muscle as is commonly said.
“one theory of cancer is that the rate of mutation is about the same for everyone, but some people are simply unlucky in that their mutations cause cancer. there’s almost nothing one can do. it’s just a matter of luck.”
Fasting increases cell autophagy, preventing cancer and Alzheimer’s:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-autophagy-fasting-25/
going deeper…
NHL killed andy whitfield age 39. may’ve been an STD.
as far as i know the only identified substance which reduces risk of NHL is…
alcohol!
that and kidney cancer are significantly less frequent in drinkers.
AND…it’s interesting…
1. ethanol is not a mutagen.
2. cancer of the mouth and throat are tripled by alcohol-ism. (though according to some studies not in the absence of smoking/tobacco.)
3. ethanol is metabolized to a carcinogen, acet-aldahyde. but this takes place almost exclusively in the liver.
so what’s the explanation for alcohol induced cancer of mouth and throat?
it’s interesting…
it’s that alcohol, especially hard liquor, KILLS cells in the mouth and throat.
thus alcohol stimulates cell division to replace these killed cells.
thus alcohol increases the risk of mutation/cancer.
even if hymie were a real person he’d be gassed.
graças a Deus!
Whats the weather like in [location redacted by PP, march 20, 2017] 🙂
LOLWUT?
paraguay?
why was this redacted?
Didn’t think i should publish the specific city where jimmy thinks you live since you may wish to keep that private
how would he know? he doesn’t see my ip address.
or does he?
I have no idea how he knows if he does but he’s made comments that suggest he’s been reading the comments for a long long time & you’ve revealed a lot of personal info over the years.
Jimmy sounds needy
No other reason to brag about one’s payslip
Nothing wrong with bragging about the money you have cleverly earned and worked hard for. Some consider materialism & avarice low class, but that’s only because old money has the luxury of not striving for wealth because they already have it. Condemning those who want their piece of the pie as “pushy strivers” is just a way of manipulating them to stay in their place and Jimmy was smart not to fall for it.
No it isnt
The very state of being a pushy striver betrays a subtle form of manipulation. Unconscious manipulation. It’s like a slave boasting about being promoted to house negro.
“Some consider materialism & avarice low class,”
Because it -is- low class. Go to Latin America. The rich are idle. The poor (when they don’t chug the church’s ideology) all think like you and jimmy.
it’s funny.
people are ashamed of what they’ve said or done after years of “maturity”.
what’s the opposite?
just ctrl-f “jorge videla”.
…and there’s this one study from brazil which shows cancers of the throat, mouth, etc. has no relation to alcohol consumption at all. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0068132
try harder.
that’s what he says.
…Drinking was not independently associated with OC…
Re: My clit keeps throbbing!
redlace
redlace member
January 2011
well, good news. there is no normal. many women have stronger sexual desire than their male counterparts. in fact, that very topic was discussed yesterday in a blog post. here’s the link.
http://redlacesexblog.com/erotica-writer/
by the way, from personal experience, if it’s good in your 30’s, hold on for dear life in your 40’s. it just keeps getting better.
best,
robin
listen from 4:36. Fascinating.
the part about the banker taking out $300,000 from a bank to help the Mossad is incredible.
when he says that 70% turn them down its because they don’t want to get caught.
jews are a very cowardly people.
the fact that they dont call the police and tell them that a foreign intelligence service is operating in their country is more proof that all jews need to be deported.
I’m fascinated.
I’m not a medicine or health guru, but 3 observations on cancer:
1. Lifestyle matters.
2. Robert is right that given enough time almost everyone will develop it – but certain lifestyles reduce risk of one type of cancer vs another. You can be smart and try game it.
3. Cancer, like most Western health problems are lifestyle/diet problems.
Ever notice the way half black guys have a strong cognitive dissonance on identity? They never feel black enough. Perhaps you can elaborate Melo/Mickey.
The Weeknd and Obama are a good example. But really you could give 20 examples.
Not every one of them, but many. Complicated position.
Poh Poh Obama – what’s he goin do now?
Bill Clinton set up a giant bribery slush fund called the Clinton Foundation. W painted pictures and wrote a book the jewish press called ‘really incisive’ explaining why he had to invade Iraq and pacify the Mid East for Zion. George HW probably is still touching children inappropriately in Nebraska. And Carter did a lot of good work on democracy, peace and disease control.
If Obama has any sense he’ll stay quiet. The man is considered a failed president, even if he is personally popular. I would argue he was a succesful pres in the circumstances of Zion’s Final Advance against the goyim.
The reason race is such an issue is genetics. And Zion’s genetics dictate it must be supreme.
That volcano in the background is looking more likely.
“Perhaps you can elaborate Melo/Mickey.”
Well I’m not half black. But I have noticed people have identity issues. Not mixed race people but full bloods. I know what I am genetically, it’s the dipshit white folks who still believe in a “one drop” rule.
I don’t try to be filipino. I am my own person.
do like the Weeknd’s music? like,what makes you say that he’s like a good example of that?
Pretty obvious in his lyrics. Same as that Wayne and Peel comedy due. Every line is an attempt to prove they’re really black, even though they never spoke to their fathers and were raised in white neighbourhoods.
Obama is the best example. Read ‘Dreams of My Father’.
He met his father twice his whole life.
Mikey Blaze is the most confident guy on this blog. His T is through the roof.
Well Mikey is one of the most honest guys on this blog. 100% value his candour here in this cesspit of hacks.
Lol, you’re ignoring the real African elephant in this room. Mikey is immature, I am a grown up man.
isn’t weeknd Ethiopian?
In Cali i met an Ethiopian, an Eritrean, a Somali and a Djiboutian and none of them considered themselves black.
I was shocked by that but as i paid more attention to the way they looked i could see that they were a lot more caucasoid.
Some of them look like white people who had been painted black.
I met a Somali guy at a summer basketball camp and he had straight hair . He looked tamil.
“I don’t try to be filipino ”
You don’t need to try as you are filipino.
Dont be ashamed of your heritage.
If i said anything to make you feel bad about your filipino status then i apologize.
“You don’t need to try as you are filipino.”
That’s my point.
“If i said anything to make you feel bad about your filipino status then i apologize.”
Just don’t let it happen again.
You must remember this series Jimmy. The Strike series was the bomb. They don’t make games like that anymore.
Or survival horror. Real survivor horror.
My computer is operational now. Age of Mythology is very satisfying.
Does vidjagamin improve reaction time – yes. But it destroys your diet and physique. So on balance you lose mental agility and of course you don’t read either.
Soviet Strike !
Great game great times !
I’m starting to think that me and phil were separated at birth.
Did you ever pay Zelda ?
*play zelda
Haha, Actually I’m a Desert Strike, Jungle Strike and Urban Strike veteran as well.
I remember being blown away by the third person shooter gameplay in urban strike.
They completely canned the series for some reason. There’s nothing else like it.
No I was a Sega Geneis/Megadrive man. Sonic was my Zelda.
” No I was a Sega Geneis/Megadrive man. Sonic was my Zelda.”
I had a sega megadrive and i loved Sonic.
the memories just keep rolling back.
I remember staying up until 2am on a school night trying to do the Labyrinth zone.
There were better looking levels and harder ones but the star light zone tune has stuck in my head all this time.
If you watch that clip you’ll see that it has a lot of problem solving. There is no doubt in my mind that games like that have an impact on IQ.
Sonic, ISS pro/Pro evo, Street fighter, James bond golden eye, Tekkan tag, Super Smash bros, so many great games.
i was a purist when it came to ISS pro evo vs FIFA and i resisted joining the dark side up until FIFA copied the engine of pro evo.
You may be surprised to know that games development is on a par with financial programming when it comes to complexity. In many cases games development is more complex.
The only reason game developers don’t get paid as well as those in finance is because there are so many desperate kids who accept way less than they deserve because they all want to be game developers.
A lot of games make more money than hollwyood blockbuster movies but the devs get paid relatively low salaries.
In any other industry where a group of people produce that much value they would be getting paid big bucks but they don’t.
They say that the laws of economics are like the laws of physics but gravity doesn’t change because of some spotty faced autistic who oozes desperation.
Anyway those games bring back a lot of great memories. That period in between the fall of the soviet union and the war on terror was a great time.
A while back i was wondering what on earth i was doing before the internet and now i remember.
I was a Medal of Honor guy growing up. Especially the one with Nazi Germany. Great game. Also Final Fantasy and strategy RPGs of course.
I don’t know who this man is. I don’t know his background. But he’s autistic.From Bloomberg today.
Same as Jimmy’s old boss.
You can tell a lot from physiognomy. Its a queer look.
I diagnosed Deal’s bipolar from her eyes. And Afro’s latent homosexuality similarily from the sensitive face.
Gays tend to look a certain way. Annoying looking. Always smiling. Although women tend to tell better than men.
If anime wants I can tell him if he as autism for sure by looking at him.
We look a certain way for a good reason – bar disease, accidents, plastic surgery.
Even bad diet is reflected correctly in acne, posture, and sallow skin.
AESTHETICS DONT LIE.
BUT PEOPLE CAN LIE ABOUT AESTHETICS. (IE JEWS)
If anime wants I can tell him if he as autism for sure by looking at him.
Don’t do it kitty
Why?
what would he do?
or what would happen?
everyone else that have seen my youtube channel say I have it anyway.
Kitty’s info and videos of himself are already out there. I’d advise he’d be more careful with his privacy.
Offtopic: Pumpkin, you don’t talk about gender differences very much. There is obviously an IQ difference between the sexes, but what about creativity? Do you think creativity is a dimorphic trait? Do you think men are intrinsically more creative than women? Has there been much research on this topic?
i want to be able to tell people’s sign by looking at them. i think it’s possible,but like the rising sign makes it difficult to correctly guess someone’s sun sign based on looks alone. but,my questionnaire has a 100% accuracy rating so far on guessing signs.
The HBD blogs love to mention how smart people are but Griffie is the real deal.
I met Griffie many times in person and I cant say a bad word about him really.
He was just a little awkward to talk to. He had an obviously fake smile that looked like something his therapist told him to do.
His problem is that he doesn’t value individual talent as much as he should. A lot of the best people leave Citadel after a few years.
Maybe its his autism that makes him think that employees are like machine parts. if one expensive piece of equipment breaks down then he can just just order another one.
Recently the head of securities left after just 5 months.
Whats even stranger is that he replaced him with a chinaman.
I don’t think he has severe autisim. I would say that he has a very mild form of autisim that is less of a handicap because of his extremely high intelligence.
His autistic traits seem to only show up in small gatherings. He doesn’t seem autistic when he’s giving a speech. In fact, i remember him giving a speech recently where he condemned the cronyism of Chicago politics.
Citadel was my first adult job and it was great but i quickly recognized that the real money is in London so i quite Chi-town.
My life would be so great if i didn’t have the tax burden of US citizenship.
Jimmy, sorry I didn’t post some of your comments but I don’t think it’s wise for me to discuss that publicly for several reasons, including some you’ve inferred. But I’d love to learn more if you care to email me. Wow, I really do have the smartest readers in the HBD-o-sphere!
Hey Jimmy tell me how to make more money.
” In fact, i remember him giving a speech recently where he condemned the cronyism of Chicago politics. ”
That was the speech I pegged him as autistic. I know the one.
One thing I’d say is the the normal office guy seems autistic to me. To a black guy, Griffin is extremely autistic or ‘nerdy’ as well I’d imagine.
Its the kind of feeling that you know he rehearsed it. All speakers maybe rehearse or plan speeches, but autists give you the impression that they really tried hard.
Yes he’s a very smart guy in narrow senses. its frustrating listening to them because they can be analytical about a prosaic matter like infrastructure spending and get the right answer, and be completely wrong on carried interest or the like.
Look up his personal history – not a smart guy in other senses.
” Hey Jimmy tell me how to make more money.”
As a 125 IQ black guy the world is your oyster
I am being 100% serious when i say that.
There are companies that are desperate to fill diversity quotas that are completely self imposed.
you have no idea how many of them are itching to go to a cocktail party and boast of how committed they are to diversity.
Apply for entry level trading positions and make sure that you send clear signals in your CV that you’re black.
Remember to put your high SAT score on your CV.
Dont say that you’re black as you will give the impression that you’re one of those militant blacks, but give clear signals that you’re black.
You have nothing to lose just apply.
You do not look stupid. You look like the kind of guy that would shoot up a school.
Get your doc to give you a blood test for all vitamins, minerals and fatty acids.
Have you ever taken Adderall ?
When i read your stuff the voice in my head was Chris from family guy.
you sound a lot better than i thought you would.
Cat, I never watched one of your videos before. You look like a really good person and very smart looking! Like a student at a very high IQ university. But your mannerisms show a lack of confidence, but that’s understandable given your hard life.
When i read your stuff the voice in my head was Chris from family guy.
Hahahaa, me too! Except higher pitched.
Autism. 100%
my mom has it much worse than me.
but do you have anything more to say philosopher?
what is it about autism that affects people and in what way?
Hey kitty, is it some whey protein that I see on the left hand side corner ?
Omega-3
Ah… You should consider protein supplements and eating more, there are appetite enhancers on the market if you aint voracious. You’d feel better and you’d have better social relationships if you were bigger IMO.
Also, I’m surprised PP said nothing about your cranium, which looks pretty big relative to the rest of your head.
Have you ever notiiiiced?
Yeah
That women can’t write music?
Yeah!
Why is that?
Think about it though. There are no female composers. No female broadway songwriters (even though women love that stuff) and no female rock, jazz, rap or even country composers.
All these pop singers have swedish men writing their stuff – Katy Perry, Ri Ri, and so on.
Musical intelligence might well be the most masculine type of intelligence. This fits in perfectly with the observation the blacks are the highest testosterone race and are naturally muscially intelligent (even though the can’t create instruments).
You see?
I daresay musical intelligence is more ‘masculine’ brained than quant.
Funny. Most people would assume women were good at music. Singing yes. Not instrumental playing or composition.
I’m good at music. Because I have a primitive brain.
That women can’t write music?
Dolly Parton, Madonna & probably Lady Gaga can.
Madonna doesn’t. Lady Gaga can so fair enough, but its a wild exception. Not sure about Dolly.
Very rare.
You’re dumb. Check out Carol king and Carly simon.
Or Joni Mitchell. Or Alanis Morisette.
Think harder next time before inventing silly theories.
I meant good songwriters.
I mean you could write a tune about pizza but who would care?
The Philosopher has these running jokes that no one thinks are funny and no one laughs at.
I hate saying this but I agree with you in a way. I can think of plenty of female singer-songwriters, but not so many female instrumentalists. It’s the instrumental aspects that’s lacking in women (for whatever reason).
Now that’s only true in popular music. In classical music, you have a lot of women instrumentalists.
Welcome to the real world, kids.
#LoveArmyForSomalia
#TurkishAirlinesHelpSomalia
https://www.gofundme.com/LOVEARMYFORSOMALIA
No donation is too small.
all donations are too large.
ben stiller is a jew.
i would like to make a donation of negative two million USDs.
Joan rivers hated ben stiller because she was friends with his parents, yet stiller ignored her when she tried to say hi, because he is a celebrity
Rivers’s attitude was “show some respect. I’m friends with your parents!”
“all donations are too large.”
Fuck you.
Mug of pee, you are disgusting, you make me wanna throw up. I wish you were there in Somalia and that every Somalian could afford the luxury of writing insulting comments on a blog.
I gave €300 to the cause, that’s nothing, not even an Armani suit. I still feel ashamed, I’m thinking of going to Somalia.
Peepee has to moderate mug of pee’s comment.
– Rice — Carbs
– Vegetable cooking oil — lowers intelligence/promotes obesity
– Nutritional biscuits — what kind of ‘nutritional’ biscuits?
– Flour — carbs
– Sugar — THE CASE AGAINST SUGAR!!
– Porridge — carbs
High GI/garbage ‘food’. Not knocking the help, just saying the ‘food’ is garbage.
That vegetable cooking oil …. ugh….
Homie, unless you have something better to give, and if you gave some money you have a say. If not, just fuck off. Your comment is gross, if you do not show me something convincing I’ll ask peepee to moderate yor disgusting comment.
It’s an emergency, give guys please.I don’t know what to do to soften you hearts but please just do something, relay the message at least.
The biscuits are enriched UNO biscuits, anyone who’s been involved in international voluteering know them.
https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/special-nutritional-products
I was giving my opinion on the quality. You know my crusade against sugar/carbs.
“The biscuits are enriched UNO biscuits, anyone who’s been involved in international voluteering know them.”
Good to know. Thanks for the link. I just wish some of that food was higher quality. . .
I’m no philanthropist, just stating my opinion.
Carbs don’t make you fat.
Its literally impossible to get fat on a high carb low fat diet.
The whole food for Africa thing is insane.
in 1900 the population of Africa was 133 million so roughly Japan.
if you only count sub-saharan africans then it was around 100 million.
Today’s its nearly 900 million SSAs.
Who benefited from that ?
Sub-saharan africa has a much better soil quality than the deserts of north africa and yet we never here about Egyptians starving.
in the long run i think sending them food, medicine etc is doing more harm than good as we are subsidizing the breeding of the lowest quality africans.
That sounds awfully cold but i think its in africas best interests for their to be some real natural selection.
I bet the 100 million blacks in 1900 had a higher genetic intelligence level than the 900 million of today.
I’ve been very adamant here that Bill Gates/Warren Buffet (wgose wife died of an STD from sleeping around), should not be subsidising African magic negros.
Its a negative externality in the eco jargo. Its a net loss.
Europe is going to have 400m barbarians at the gate leering at the prettier women there pretty soon if not already.
Africa is Steve Sailer’s no.1 pet problem. There is nothing good that can come from more Kinshasa less Europe.
RR,
I don’t know if you meant anything wrong but you sounded like Queen of France Marie-Antoinette during 1789’s food crisis. When she was told people had no bread anymore (France’s staple food) she answered “why don’t they eat cake?”.
Vallet: Les gens n’ont plus de pain !
Marie-Antoinette: Pourquoi ne mangent-t-ils pas de brioche ?
This is horrible !
“Sub-saharan africa has a much better soil quality than the deserts of north africa and yet we never here about Egyptians starving.”
Lol, are you serious ? Egypt has the best soil fertility in the world along with India, China, France and the German lands. It has been the Mediterranean’s bread basket since antiquity. On the other hand, SS Africa has poor soils, they are oxydated, tse-tse flies prevent people from keeping fertilizing livestock.
But they manage to live, especially in West Africa where the nutritional situation is better than in East Africa and South Asia.
Africa is not overpopulated, countries like Nigeria or Cameroon could be as densely populated as Japan and Germany. Somalia could be as dense as the Ukraine, but this famine is mainly caused by war. If Nigeria had a bad harvest, it would import from Benin, Niger, Cameroon and other neighbors, But in Somalia there is no one in the cockpit anymore.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Afro. I will mention it in the next post.
Thousand thanks.
hymie is a self-hating jew. sad!
watching tv news and seeing how biased and stupid it is will be correlated with VIQ much more than with PIQ.
RR’s article in a 5min video.
That catch at 4:57: fuck you
Great video. People underestimate baseball when it comes to athletic ability.
Yah, I’m part of them, I’v never been educated in baseball , and hockey as well. But this video ignored two awesome sports too: handball and rugby.
I have an unlimited supply of those videos, whenever you’re lazy, call your homeboy Afro.
Excerpt from:
steve shoe is being retarded again. http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/03/everything-is-heritable.html
while mental deficients like shoe know that correlation isn’t causation, they don’t see that heritability is merely a correlation. they assume the correlation is caused by an independent genetic effect, but they don’t know that they assume this.
Man, I feel like we’ve had this conversation too many times. At this point, it comes down to what you want to believe. There’s nothing that will satisfy the anti-hereditists.
Im genuinely mystified how Robert and Jimmy can deny the biological causes of human behaviour.
It must be politically motivated.
There’s more nuance that they highlight correctly. But the overall thrust is that you aren’t going to break 100m in under 10 seconds without usually having sub saharan genes in my opinion.
sprinting speed is actually an example of how little genes matter.
that is, the fastest 1% of whites are faster than 98% of blacks at least.
the difference shows itself only at the extreme.
and sprinting is NOT a psychological trait fucktard.
i’ve already expressed the opinion that at the extremes of whatever one race may dominate.
pill is such a pill.
hbders are boring and tiresome just like freud and psychiatrists.
mossad is so not intimidating.
sad!
but shoe does prove that those who are most interested in intelligence are not intelligent. he majored in physics, worships physicists, is attached to cal tech…
the guy is just the typical pathetic IQ-tard.
if i were black i’d self-deport. i’d move back to africa.
american blacks may be afraid of this, but they shouldn’t be.
they could occupy the same niche in africa that the lebanese and indians now occupy. and the climate is a lot better.
I’d never self-deport. I’m a genetic product of American soil; someone like me couldn’t have been created anywhere else. Also, my family helped build America both during slavery and afterwards via their hard work and entrepreneurialism.
I feel no affiliation with Africa, whether genetically, economically, or culturally. And that place seems like a total shit-hole, regardless of one’s economic status there.
“Im genuinely mystified how Robert and Jimmy can deny the biological causes of human behavior. ”
I have never denied that behavioral traits are genetic.
All i have said on that topic is that the effect of environment on behavior is greatly
underestimated.
I cant think of any behavioral trait that cant be weakened or completely suppressed with the right environmental pressures.
Show lions are the greatest example of how genetic behavior can be changed.
If i was the absolute monarch of America i could fix the black problem within one generation.
The answer is not democracy the answer is a philosopher king.
All i have said on that topic is that the effect of environment on behavior is greatly underestimated.
Well the reason HBD always made intuitive sense to me is that as a kid I got interested in evolution. Anthropologists don’t need IQ tests to know modern humans were smarter than H. erectus. They just say “H. erectus had a smaller brain and much less technology”; Occam’s razor suggests they were genetically less smart. Yet when the same argument is applied to the much smaller within species human differences, it’s considered racist & the shame of that prevents most folks from even considering it. But that kind of shaming doesn’t work on me, so I kept an open mind to HBD theories, though I’m also open to seeing them debunked.
Robert is intellectually disabled from all the alcohol. He even argues alcohol is good for you and we should all become distribution centre minimum wage workers because we need to find inner peace or some bullshit while swigging cheap Azerbijani whiskey and drink driving his forklift.
HBD is real. Robert makes 500 mentions of blacks on every thread and the inherent ‘character’ and ‘traits’ shall we say, and then turns about face and says we can train blacks to be east asians because the personality that extends from high testosterone is a social construction or stereotype.
Its ridiculous.
And as for ‘fixing’ the black communtiy, the only way to do it would be to make them K selected i.e. mass imprisonment + executions of R selected guys + outcasting and abortions of R select women. Not going to happen.
that is, the fastest 1% of whites are faster than 98% of blacks at least.
the difference shows itself only at the extreme.
and sprinting is NOT a psychological trait fucktard.
Robert arguing with a lamp post.
I never said it was. In fact the fact HBD extends to physical traits makes it more robust.
As for sprinters, believe whatver you want to believe. That statistic you gave is retarded. Its like saying the richest 1% of blacks are richer than 95% of whites. Its not even worth saying. Only hanging your head in shame at your cretinous stupidity.
Next time McDonalds offers you a place in their university say no – I’m not going to let the fast food take over my body.
“But that kind of shaming doesn’t work on me, so I kept an open mind to HBD theories, though I’m also open to seeing them debunked.”
Actori incumbit probatio
Don’t turn things around, it’s HBD that has to debunk mainstream science, not the other way around. The burden of proof weighs on the plaintiff.
And in case you haven’t noticed, HBD creates no almost data at all, they just (mis)interpret findings from these mainstream scientists the accuse of dishonesty, so they are basically academic parasites.
As I told RR this morning, HBD will only have proven something when it can provide replicated studies with satisfying controls and that stem from the hard sciences, especially genetics and neuroscience.
As long as HBD is only about correlations and psychology, bloggers and non-specialists, it won’t be able to back its claims of seriousness.
“sprinting speed is actually an example of how little genes matter.”
lol
“that is, the fastest 1% of whites are faster than 98% of blacks at least.”
And? Do you know what it takes—biologically—to be a good sprinter?
“the difference shows itself only at the extreme.”
They don’t only ‘show at the extreme’. The differences AT the extremes show that there is a biological difference.
“and sprinting is NOT a psychological trait fucktard.”
You’re wrong.
“i’ve already expressed the opinion that at the extremes of whatever one race may dominate.”
Give me the link.
Well not everything. But most and even those things which are not, like schooling, are influenced by those factors which are.
Steve doesn’t talk about mutations much. That’s possible too. Not just defects, but eugenic traits.
I also believe susceptibility to autism and schizo is largely genetic, not just IQ or muscularity/body density. Baron Cohen has done studies with Eindhoven engineers.
just give it up mossad agent.
Where do you work Jimmy? The City or the Wharf?
I was in the Wharf.
I lived in Warrington Crescent near Warwick Ave.
I got a great deal – £750 incl bills for a studio apartment in one of these flats with backdoor patio to neighbourhood commons. My landlady was jewish and her son lived in the other room. He was a half black land rover salesdude. When I went for a piss the first day and saw his picture smiling at me I thought it was a cosmic joke.
She was a fashion designer so that came in handy for clothes repairs. Neurotic a.f. Often came into my room when I wasn’t there to check stuff and close windows and whatnot.
The son was a decent guy.
Nice little sitcom premise.
My condition eventually deteriorated. What happens is that I reach the top and wax. Lose everything and wane. Build again and wax. Right now I’m waning.
I was waxing not so long ago.
I think what you’re paying is scandalous. I assume your employer sponsored the property as I don’t see how that rent is viable outside of Knightsbridge/Kensington. Maybe your interior is amazing.
I assume that includes bills, concierge, parking, building security fees at least.
” I assume that includes bills, concierge, parking, building security fees at least.
Yes I live in Notting Hill.
“I think what you’re paying is scandalous ”
In life you get what you pay for .
I have a female neighbor who went to Latmayer School and she gets an allowance of £7,000 a month from her mother and that’s tax free.
I think she has a drug problem though. She hides it well but i can tell by her eyes.
You would be shocked to find out how many daughters of the wealthy simply don’t work.
speaking of rich kids in london with drug problems…
hans rausing.
actually he’s not a kid and he’s super duper rich.
” hans rausing. ”
funny you mention him as i met him at Royal Ascot in 2015.
The thing that surprised me the most is how ugly his wife is.
She had a beak of a nose and was just weird looking.
The problem with people like that is that getting a hot young wife decreases their social standing.
He looked like half his brain was fried.
I have always wondered why rich Europeans move to the UK . I think that the image that they have of a wealthy life is large stately home in the English home counties or a posh pad in London.
I was speaking to a colleague recently and he was telling me how the private schools in London used to be for the upper middle class and the aristocracy but now its just the super rich and the aristocracy.
There is an increasing hostility towards the chinese as many Englishman have been sending their sons to certain private schools for centuries and then along come the chinese who bid their kids out of a place.
Its amazing how little self respect the asians have. They emulate everything that’s western.
Stephen D. Hsu is a great example. Why not Tao Hsu? I would have a lot more respect for him if his name was Tao.
I always get a good laugh when i see these little Chinese kids playing the piano or the violin.
I remember laughing when Jeremy Lin of the NY nicks talked about his time on the Harvard basketball team and how the crowds would pretend to have slit eyes and shout ” Orchestra is on the other side of campus ! ”
I have never respected non-western people who wear suites and ties.
I feel embarrassed for them.
Well all cultures emulate the West in some way. Except Zion is now trying to turn the West into Kinshasa.
Classic ‘inversion of morality’ as Nietsche pointed out.
Who emulates Kinshasa outside the West.
Nobody. Because its objectively retarded.
But brainwashed gentiles can’t see it.
To someone that’s brainwashed. Other people are brainwashed. Not different.
“upper middle class” in britain and “upper middle class” in america are two different things.
it used to be that public schools were a lot less expensive in real terms. most who could afford them sent their kids to state schools, and this was an example of how class means (or meant) different things in britain. today some aristocrats can’t afford them. yet they are “upper class” because of the title.
the british class system is itself failed imitation. the uk is the most rigidly stratified country in europe. the brits are obsessed with class…what they can never have but continental garbage men have, class.
greatest inequaility. least mobility. lowest incomes in germanic europe. largest trade deficit as % of gdp in the developed world. the city is the only thing keeping afloat. maybe brexit will change that. maybe gs will move to frankfurt or dublin. i hope so. the british are the scum of the earth.
the anglo-saxons are the scourge of the planet.
but why are icelanders so fat?
“but why are icelanders so fat?”
Decreased fat consumption. Increased carb consumption. The Western diet is the scourge of the earth.
Hey Gondwanaman, do you like MGMT ?
That’s some some whitish stuff I really dig.
Yea they’re cool.
Great !
Is MGMT really that white ? I feel like everyone can like it.
RR
In your article you mention the role of the sports in our societies. Do we know if African people had sports or something we can assimilate to that ?
I don’t think these peoples didn’t have sports even though blacks dominate some sports in western countries. So what does that mean for you ?
Senegalese wrestling
yes afro.
more wrestling less music.
much less music.
much less.
just agree to..
1. take your job seriously.
2. when you listen to music listen only to von karajan’s studio recordings of wagner.
or maybe you’ve given up on being a frenchman.
you just haven’t admitted it to yourself.
You think either of them can beat Kurt Angle in his prime?
Hum, I have no clue. Angle looks more muscular, but they look more like powerlifters.
Kurt Freakin’ Angle is a wrestling machine and won an Olympic gold metal WITH A BROKEN FREAKIN’ NECK! Show some respect to the Olympic gold medalist.
Seriously though, I think he’d destroy them.
Haha, chill out buddy. I don’t know how good these guys are in their wrestling style. They are big, I guess the top senegalese wrestler would beat Angle in Senegalese wrestling. Then, would the top Senegalese wrestlers beat the top western style wrestlers or top Japanese ones, I have no clue at all, I think that’s an unsolvable enigma for the moment.
” You think either of them can beat Kurt Angle in his prime?”
Nothing beats the WCW days .
“Nothing beats the WCW days”
Finger poke of doom, Hogan being Hogan. Invincible Goldberg, idiotic antics happening. WCW was garbage towards the end.
No wonder they WCW and ECW died. The Invasion angle was horrible and they ended up having WCW/ECW being full of WWF guys. Retarded.
ROH and TNA are next to get absorbed.
I liked DDP though. Was great when he stalked the Undertaker’s wife.
Good times.
Angle beat Lesnar in a real wrestling match.
Lesnar has nearly 150 pounds on Angle.
Angle is potentially the greatest real wrestler of all time pound for pound.
Lesnar was a NCAA champion himself.
Yeah WCW was the bomb before Vince Russo went there. I remember watching it and thinking it was almost like they sent him there on purpose to do a job. Remember David Arquette became the champ?
I would say amateur wrestling is even more gruelling to train for than boxing. I’ve trained in both in college. A wrestling match is more intense than anything I’ve tried physically. You need cardio and all round strength. With boxing you don’t need all round body.
in the 90s the WCW was the greatest thing on the planet!
Sting , the NWO, Bill ” WHO’S NEXT” Goldberg
WCW was a lot darker than WWF which i thought was for kids.
Sting was one scary dude
I was so annoyed when WCW merged with WWF .
WWF has always been a childish form of soft porn . Only Ston cold steve Austin was decent .
when i got older and i became jew-wise and i looked up Goldberg it broke my heart
real wrestling as an example of a real sport not professional wrestling.
professional wrestling is the gayest thing ever. it’s gayer than liberace, another italian american.
this guest post should’ve been titled…
Guido Makes Fool of Himself. Sad!
“real wrestling as an example of a real sport not professional wrestling.”
I never said that WWE is a sport. Wrestlers are athletes though. If you say no, you’re fooling yourself.
“this guest post should’ve been titled…
Guido Makes Fool of Himself. Sad!”
Nope. I’m talking about things that happened 20+ years ago.
“In your article you mention the role of the sports in our societies. Do we know if African people had sports or something we can assimilate to that ?”
Well, when I talked about societies I meant today, not in the past. Different evolutionary ‘paths’ lead one group down one ‘path’ and another group down another. Morphology then becomes distinct based on where evolution occurs (descent by modification **). This is a large cause of differences in elite sports (along with muscle fibers).
(Notice the one commenter and his idiotic comment which I addressed in the article. . .)
What occurred in our evolutionary past does have to do with our sporting events today, however, at that time, we were still ”all one people” so that’s what I spent a large amount of the article on. Transitioning to sports in the modern context puts it in perspective.
If you’d like to see my articles on black-white differences in sports/disease (due in large part to muscle fibers) read:
IQ is boring to me now. There is much more to HBD than racial differences in IQ.
“I don’t think these peoples didn’t have sports even though blacks dominate some sports in western countries. So what does that mean for you ?”
I’m not too well-versed on Africa ethnies and lifestyles. That’s more Afro’s, Phil’s and Jm8’s territory.
Let’s say, for argument’s sake, they didn’t develop any type of indigenous sport. So what? What does that mean? They still dominate competitions in which fast twitch (type IIx/b) fibers are used.
Supporting Afro’s point, wrestling is a very common one amongst West Africans.
Some other activity include hunting, archery, and even some casual feuding amongst smaller villages from what I’ve read in pre-colonial Nigeria the involves the male Youth raiding each other, and in River areas of Nigeria swimming was common as well.
They have Canoe races all along the Niger River as well as the two Deltas, the Hausa have fishing contests as well as traditional boxing (Dambe), a horse race takes place at the Durbar in Kano. There is actually a very ancient horse riding tradition in the Sahel and the West African Savanna
To Afro,
Canoe cultures are common with West Africans either at rivers or coasts, but I haven’t heard of this used traditionally as I’ve mainly recall either trade or war purposes. At the same though it’s perfectly plausible it was included but I missed it in some of my readings.
As fore Kombe I remember reading about it when looking up African Martial traditions, another one being a type of Angolan fighting art characterized by kicks and sweeps said to have influence Brazilian Martial arts.
no pill. i am not a white supremacist. nor am i a white nationalist. but i am a nationalist.
hymie is attached to the idea of white supremacy.
“pieces of paper” contradict this, so he must dismiss this FACT.
i am not fond of white people. the “vast majority” of white people are fugly and retarded. they have no claim to being the herrenvolk.
i am fond of the nation state as democracy is impossible without it.
that is, this is what history and contemporary politics shows. consanguinity is an essential characteristic of the best polity.
hillary and her kind believe in the herrenvolk too, but they believe they are selected by college admissions committees.
they ARE in most countries, but not in the US or canada or scandinavia afaik. that is, the elite uni grads and the highest IQs are the SAME people in most countries. and hillary was one of them even though she’s an american.
it’s hard to believe hildebeest at age 17 really was ca 140 IQ. in the recent election she just seemed like a dried out husk. it’s NOT misogyny. le pen is CLEARLY france’s last hope. but thatcher was a cunt, and so is merkel.
Is there any indication whatsoever that Hillary’s IQ is above 130? Did PP ever do an IQ estimate?
She was a National Merit Scholar (if I remember correctly) so that suggests probably in the 120s, at least. But she failed her bar exam the first time, which is pretty fucked up (only about 20% who sit do that).
Ha! She did seem like dried-out husk. Like, literally…
Thatcher is scum for covering up the British pedo ring.
It’s funny. People will cry about the Rotterdam rapes but not what’s done by their elite. (But with this Pizzagate idiocy going on, all politicians are being looked at.)
Daily reminder that David Icke was talking about British pedo rings over 25 years ago. If he was right about that, is he right about reptilian shapshifters?
How about this thought to chew on?
What if his phrase ‘reptilian shapeshifters’ is just his way to talk about the Jews without getting hit with the ridiculous anti-free speech laws in Europe? Hmm…
What if reptilian shapeshifters are actual beings and he is right?
an NBAer was ax-ed about jason collins…
“as long as he doesn’t bring his gayness on me.”
it’s the same with supremacism of whatever kind.
it’s fine if japs believe they’re the herrenvolk. maybe they are.
just as long as they don’t conquer manchuria, korea, etc.