In the mid 20th century, the college board became curious about what the distribution of SAT scores would be if ALL American 17-year-olds took the SAT, not just the college bound elite. One reason for this curiosity was the average score of people who actually took the SAT started falling in the 1960s, especially the verbal scores, so people wanted to know whether this was simply because less elite kids were applying to college, or if teens in general were being dumbed down (see chart from Herrnstein & Murray, 1994; page 425):
This is discussed in the book The Bell Curve:
What they found was that the decline was just an artifact of the SAT population becoming more inclusive. When you look at nationally representative samples, not only was there no decline, but there was actually a very small Flynn effect.
I was especially interested in seeing these national norms because the SAT has long been considered a good proxy for IQ, but unlike IQ tests which are normed to have a mean and standard deviation of 100 and 15 in the general U.S. population, the verbal and math subscales of the pre-1995 SAT were both normed to have a mean and SD of 500 and 100 respectively and with respect to the 1940s SAT taking population (not the general U.S. population). The chart above tells us how the average U.S. 17-year-old (IQ 100) would have scored on the SAT from 1950s to the 1980s, but to fill in the rest of the IQ distribution, we need to know the standard deviations.
Thanks to Charles Murray, I was able to find the SDs for the 1980s and I had already found the SDs for the 1970s.
What about the 1960s? I recently discovered this data from the 1960 norming study:
Unfortunately the data is stratified by sex (if they tried that today they’d need categories for non-binary, gender fluid, two spirit). Well to determine the mean of the entire cohort, we take the weighted average (52% female) so verbal mean = 0.52(376) + 0.48(372) = 374. Math mean = 0.52(385) + 0.48(438) = 410.
These figures perfectly match the 1960 figures from The Bell Curve book which I showed at the top of this article so I must have done something right!
Now combining the SDs of men and women is much more difficult (even chat GPT can’t do it!). You can’t just average them because the size of the combined SD is not just a function of the two SDs, but how far apart the two means are. Of course if we assume the male, female, and sex-combined distributions are all perfectly Gaussian it’s kind of easy to estimate, but estimating is very different from actually calculating (and when men and women are too far apart, it’s probably impossible for all three distributions to be Gaussian.
To determine the sex-combined SD we must first determine the Sum of Squares:
Sum of Squares = female n*(female sd^2 + female mean^2) + male n*(male sd^2 + male mean^2)
And then:
sex combined standard deviation is SQRT(Sum of Squares / sex combined N – sex combined mean^2)
And so for 1960, the sex-combined mean and SD for verbal and math respectively were 374; 116 and 410; 114 respectively.
To determine the sex-combined composite mean we just add the verbal + math mean = 784, and assuming the 0.67 correlation between verbal and math and the below formula (Herrnstein & Murray, 1994, page 779), the composite SD was 210.
Pumpkin Person 
“IQ tests which are normed to have a mean and standard deviation of 100 and 15 in the general U.S. population, the verbal and math subscales of the pre-1995 SAT were both normed to have a mean and SD of 500 and 100 respectively”
If the SAT had an accurate representative curve then a score of 1600 would be a prefect 4 SD above the mean and an IQ of 160.
This is similar to what the WAIS-4 has as the top IQ possible.
Seeing as how the New SAT for millennials was renormed to more accurately fit this curve. 1400 would equate to IQ 130?
Bill Gates being that he was above the curve (170 IQ),
This require the SD to go down when not historical adjusted.
800 / ((IQ 170 – 100) / 15) = ~171 as the SD with a mean of 800
Yet just because Bill scored in some range out of a given sample population this does not mean he is that IQ level.
Many people who did not take the SAT but could score as high as Bill would dilute the representational distribution. Meaning the SD would increase as more people were added at the tail end.
Many people were not elite like Bills parents, too poor to take the test yet were just as smart as Bill. This is why representation is important.
Look at Elon Musk he is as rich as Bill but has less IQ?
An elite position (starting point) gains traction in a particular moment in history.
Can you explain more about the tail ends of curves pp?
Many people who did not take the SAT but could score as high as Bill would dilute the representational distribution. Meaning the SD would increase as more people were added at the tail end.
Huh? If anything the SD was too big which is why Gates scored “only” +4 SD, when on a perfect bell curve he would have scored +4.5 SD (about 170). That’s why psychometrists NORMALIZE the distribution and would assign Gates a +4.5 SD (about IQ 170) even when he technically scored +4 SD.
The reason for this discrepancy was that it’s much easier to score a perfect 800 on the math section of the SAT than on the verbal section, which shaved off points that math geniuses would have otherwise got.
The highest score is 1600
This means the mean or the SD must change
4.5 * 200 = 900
so the mean becomes 700
–
if 50 people had a perfect score of 1600
and bill was IQ 170 with a score of 1560
Then the mean must decrease and the SD must decrease to keep the bounds of 1600 – Adding more people lowers everything within a boundary because no one can score above 1600.
So how would you determine bills score of 170 if the upper limit of the test is only 1600? you need to decrease the SD and the mean together. Otherwise you cannot test for anyone above IQ 160 just like the WAIS-4 cannot get higher than a 160 IQ.
I have a question for pumpkin person. This actually came up on one of the TNS websites as far as admission criteria to high IQ societies. The issue was whether the admissions criteria should be relaxed somewhat to account for the fact that standardized test takers in student populations are actually higher in IQ than the average population. For example, if the average IQ of ACT takers is 15 then we should accept two standard deviations out on the ACT test, because that would equal three standard deviations out in the general population. straightforward.
now, some argued that, in fact, this is wrong. You cannot simply add the standard deviations in this way. That the ACT population represents a sub population of the general population, a smaller bell curve within the bell curve of the general population. The standard deviation of that sub bell curve curve, the ACT takers, will be smaller than that of the general population say eight as opposed to 15. so when you add the standard deviations to 15 you’re actually not getting out to three standard deviations in the general population, paradoxically. Say 132 iq instead of the wanted 145. They further stated that this phenomenon throws into question the use of standardize academic tests in admissions criteria for high IQ societies altogether, because paradoxically three standard deviations out on the standardized test is actually less than three standard deviations out on one of the major IQ tests. Now personally, I think this line of reasoning is specious and that the additive process in the first paragraph is fine. I have my reasons, but I would like pumpkin person to approach the problem independently and see what he believes.
in first paragraph should read “average iq of test takers is 115” not 15
I have a question for pumpkin person. This actually came up on one of the TNS websites as far as admission criteria to high IQ societies. The issue was whether the admissions criteria should be relaxed somewhat to account for the fact that standardized test takers in student populations are actually higher in IQ than the average population.
It already has been relaxed. For example Mensa is a high IQ society for the top 2% of Americans, however the MENSA website explicitly accepts LSAT scores in the top 5% because LSAT takers are an elite sub-group. I think this could probably be relaxed further, but since MENSA probably has no good data on which to base its calculations, they probably deliberately err on the conservative side. Not knowing this, many interpret MENSA’s requirements as = top 2% (IQ 130), when they should probably be thought of as > top 2%.
For example, if the average IQ of ACT takers is 15 then we should accept two standard deviations out on the ACT test, because that would equal three standard deviations out in the general population. straightforward.
now, some argued that, in fact, this is wrong. You cannot simply add the standard deviations in this way. That the ACT population represents a sub population of the general population, a smaller bell curve within the bell curve of the general population. The standard deviation of that sub bell curve curve, the ACT takers, will be smaller than that of the general population say eight as opposed to 15. so when you add the standard deviations to 15 you’re actually not getting out to three standard deviations in the general population, paradoxically. Say 132 iq instead of the wanted 145. They further stated that this phenomenon throws into question the use of standardize academic tests in admissions criteria for high IQ societies altogether, because paradoxically three standard deviations out on the standardized test is actually less than three standard deviations out on one of the major IQ tests.
I think the truth is in between. Even ACT takers are not a homogeneous population because not all of them will go off to college, and among those who do, some will major in STEM and others will not; some will go on to get PhDs from Cal Tech, others will drop out of state school their junior year, so even in the ACT population, the SD is bigger than many think.
And while it’s true that the ACT population will have a narrower SD than the general population, it will also be more positively skewed so the SD of the ACT population would likely underestimate how many super geniuses are taking the test.
The best solution to this problem is the one adopted by Ron Hoeflin. He argued that even though only one in three 18-year-olds took the SAT (probably less), among super smart 18-year-olds, 100% took the SAT, thus the frequency of all super high SAT scores could be divided by three to get the general population equivalent. So if for example, one in 10,000 SAT takers scored 1560, then that equals one in 30,000 in the general U.S. young adult population.
“He argued that even though only one in three 18-year-olds took the SAT (probably less), among super smart 18-year-olds, 100% took the SAT”
This may be exaggerated.
2.5 million / 30 thousand = 83 people would have had a perfect SAT score in 1958 (live births 1940 / IQ ratio)
I doubt this many people got a perfect score that year.
Thank you, but I’m not sure you get what I’m asking. I agree there are a variety of real world issues to be addressed, but as an idealized mathematical problem, assuming a precise normal distribution for both ACT testees and general population, would the SD of the act subgroup be less than 15 if 15 is the sd of the entire group?
I think this is specious because the distributions are normalized. For example, in the bell curve, they assume the avg IQ of a sub population of blacks is 85. But it’s only represent about 12% of the population, but their standard deviation is still 15, even though they’re a small subgroup of the population. Would not the problem be exactly analogous?
actually, the clinical IQ tests are normalized on much smaller samples than the standardized test. They only probably sample of thousands or tens of thousands. Whereas the standardized test have samples of over 1 million every year.
I agree there are a variety of real world issues to be addressed, but as an idealized mathematical problem, assuming a precise normal distribution for both ACT testees and general population, would the SD of the act subgroup be less than 15 if 15 is the sd of the entire group?
Yes
I think this is specious because the distributions are normalized. For example, in the bell curve, they assume the avg IQ of a sub population of blacks is 85. But it’s only represent about 12% of the population, but their standard deviation is still 15, even though they’re a small subgroup of the population.
More like 14.5 if we’re using U.S. norms. And the distribution is normalized for Americans as a whole, not for subgroups like blacks or ACT takers.
Autistics are only 3% of America and they probably have an SD around 23!
There’s no theoretical reason why a small group should have a small SD unless that group reflects a point on a continuum that is highly correlated with IQ. For example we’d expect high school dropouts and college dropouts to both to have an SD of 11 because the correlation between IQ and education is 0.7.
Would not the problem be exactly analogous?
Kind of.
actually, the clinical IQ tests are normalized on much smaller samples than the standardized test.
Technically they’re both standardized tests but yes
They only probably sample of thousands or tens of thousands. Whereas the standardized test have samples of over 1 million every year.
Yes but the samples that take professional tests are meticulously selected to represent America as a whole. The people who take college admission tests are self-selected.
Yes, you say that the ACT distribution would differ from the standard deviation of the general population, but this is a statistical a fact or is it an effect of the biology or possible biological differences between the groups? Please explain that more.
the wide standard deviation of autistics has to do with biological realities of that condition. I’m talking about strictly idealized mathematical factors.
People who think the shooter was motivated because of Trump’s pedophilia, are fucking retarded.
who’s saying that?
Just seeing progressives on reddit saying that the shooter was one of the conservatives who have homicidal feelings towards pedos, and that’s why he targeted trump.
It’s just so dumb.
Not that dumb. 1) it would explain why the shooter was conservative, and 2) Trump’s Epstein links were trending non-stop in the days leading up to the shooting. Not saying it’s true but makes about as much sense as any other theory.
I mean it’s not completely impossible, but I’m telling you, he’s probably just nuts.
PP, we want you to estimate someone’s IQ once enough information has surfaced, and everyone here knows who it is
The shooter?
Who else?
For content, Puppy thinks RR is the smartest person in the comment section
Please stop lying or you’re going to be banned
You said his general knowledge equated to an IQ of at least 160.
His self-reported general knowledge score does seem to equate an IQ around 160 but his self-reported SAT scores seem to equate to an IQ around 70, so I’ve argued the truth is in between.
Still waiting on your response in that discussion in the other thread, TP. Where is it? Low general knowledge…
Truth is in between are you fucking stupid? One of the datapoints is garbage and the other is the gold standard in academic testing. How can you weigh the two the same?
If his SAT is 70. Then his IQ is 90% likely to be 70. We see it every day with his comments. He can’t even understand basic science.
“He can’t even understand basic science.”
Come on champ. Show me you understand “basic science” and address this comment. Low general knowledge…
https://pumpkinperson.com/2024/06/20/big-brained-but-with-low-education-genes-how-smart-were-cro-magnons/comment-page-2/#comment-249379
And the SAT—like all tests—is an experience an experience-dependent test. I didn’t learn the material on the test. That’s why I scored low. Why does this matter, exactly? I’m successful in life, I don’t get fired, I take showers and take care of my appearance. That’s like the guy at the gym talking about the time he threw the game-winning touchdown in his junior year of high school.
It’s clear that I have more than a “basic understanding” of science, and your non-response shows me all I need to know. You just make claims, you can’t sustain a real discussion on the issues. Go ahead and prove me wrong.
Puppy bans 95% of the predictions I make so nobody knows how correct I am except me and Puppy. Interesting.
LOL! Pill what do you make of all the conspiracy theories about the event? If it really was an inside job, then that might support your prediction that the neocons were behind it:
It was a bit strange how security let the guy take 8 shots and there were people screaming and pointing to him on the roof.
For now, its just general incompetence.
Ok Ive read a report that an officer did try to confront the assassin but ran away as the guy was more heavily armed. The assassin then immediately started firing in a hurry.
Theres a very good movie about the secret service called In the Line of Fire. Clint eastwood is in it. Its excellent.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/16/us/politics/trump-iran-assassination-plot.html
lol here we go again
Pumpkin,
Have you heard of Dr. Jack Naglieri and Cognitive Assessment System?
no I have not.
It just gets worse and worse for poor America. Eventually I predict in my lifetime, Americans will start emigrating to Mexico. I’m not kidding.
lots of mercans have been retiring in mexico for decades. it has a lower cost of living. and if you need mercan healthcare merca is close.
Puppy knows all this math and [psychometric shit and can’t tell if someone is dumb just from reading their comments. RR doesn’t believe in the concept of intelligence dumbass. The guy is a total clown. He belongs in a special needs remedial programme.
He’s not dumb.
pumpkin,
rr says he did not learn the material to do well on the SAT (IQ 70)
what grade level did he flunk then? 5th grade 4th grade?
That means he was unable to do math or reading to graduate school.
(definitely did not graduate middle or high school)
The SAT is about using basic knowledge to solve problems on the test.
You can’t solve problems if you can’t read write or do maths.
was rr oppositional defiant because he could have graduated if he wanted to, you said he is not dumb. and he can solve problems. or does he have a learning disability?
I didn’t flunk/fail any grade. I don’t even remember anything about the test. It literally doesn’t matter at all for me. I don’t have a learning disability. I’m clearly not “dumb” (however that’s being used here). People like TP just call me that because I have different views on things—and he’s the “dumb one” since he can’t respond to me in that discussion in the other thread. (He can prove me wrong by sustaining a discussion on it.)
you think the SAT is a knowledge test
but it’s more a problems solving test
you only need basic knowledge to solve the problems
if you don’t have basic knowledge then how did you graduate school?
perhaps because you memorize good but lack the executive functioning to solve problems you did poorly on the SAT but were able to graduate school?
many schools pass students just to not lose money (no child left behind act) even when they don’t qualify to graduate.
We don’t take the SAT in Canada. And the SAT requires knowledge of high school math. I don’t remember what angle equals what angle on strange shapes so I doubt I’d score perfect on the math SAT
If you were nerdy like me or any other high IQ person here, you would score great on the SAT, or your country’s equivalent. I’m open to the idea of some people have mental health or learning disabilites, but RR doesn’t have those issues. Frankly, RR suffers from something more fundamental than that. Marsha saw the same thing. It wasn’t because RR said his SAT score that Marsha and me feel hes dumb. Its his general reasoning and interpretation and ability to use language. Its like this guy is trying really hard to have ‘smart’ opinions but he just reads the wrong books (ie jewish ones) and can’t tell whether what hes being told makes sense or not. A person with a high IQ would have the general knowledge to debunk 90% of the papers and books RR ends up reading. RR doesn’t have what Anime refers to as ‘the g’ (lol).
Either RR is secretly smart and believes in the jewish stuff for hardcore religious/ideological reasons….or more likely hes dumb and is just regurgitating what he read in a jewish book.
He reminds me of some of these young college students I would sometimes meet who would make this or that ‘controversial’ point. With time, a high IQ person will have developed ‘a bank’ of general purpose knowledge on all disciplines across all categories to weed out bad arguments.
Maybe at age 16 the young Philosopher says ‘Iraq was for the oil’, but not by late 20s with the brain I have. The fact that 40 something Mugabe said Iraq was to win votes…I mean maybe you could argue Mugabe has autism or soemthing and its not an IQ issue. I certainly think Mugabe has the chops to score a good SAT unlike RR.
but rr is not canadian is he?
and you take the test at age 17
in my school we had basic knowledge
so executive functioning must be rr’s problem?
AK,
“you think the SAT is a knowledge test
but it’s more a problems solving test”
I bet you’d say the same about the Raven, but that’s the most enculturated test of all.
“if you don’t have basic knowledge then how did you graduate school?”
I went to an alternative high school. They didn’t teach me anything that was on the test, that’s the most I remember about it. That I wasn’t exposed to the knowledge on it, I was in the dark. And me today (even me back in 2015) is a completely different person in terms of mindset than I was 20 years ago. I don’t care about what happened 20 years ago, I care about the present and the near future.
TP,
“Its his general reasoning and interpretation and ability to use language.”
I don’t know man, I’ve provided dozens of valid arguments so how can you say with a straight face? It’s completely ridiculous.
“A person with a high IQ would have the general knowledge to debunk 90% of the papers and books RR ends up reading.”
I’m sure you fancy yourself as one of those people—so go ahead and respond to the comment I linked in a previous comment earlier today. Put up or shut up.
“Either RR is secretly smart and believes in the jewish stuff for hardcore religious/ideological reasons….or more likely hes dumb and is just regurgitating what he read in a jewish book.”
Ah, so “I deem these arguments and views ‘Jewish’, so anyone who believes them and argues for them isn’t as smart as I am and my opinions. I am very smart.” Prove it. Back it up. Stop running.
I bet you’d say the same about the Raven, but that’s the most enculturated test of all.
There’s no evidence of that.
Do you think the Raven is culture-free/fair or experience-independent?
There’s no strong evidence either way.
I think you’re wrong. There’s evidence here.
Be more specific. 99% of people will never read all that.
We know that their are deeply embedded cultural assumptions in tests like the Raven. There are more references in this article that attest to the claim that I made. The Raven taps middle-class knowledge and skills. That’s a fact.
https://cognitiveresearchjournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41235-021-00350-w
We know that their are deeply embedded cultural assumptions in tests like the Raven.
That’s just an assertion, you have no scientific data to back it up.
There are more references in this article that attest to the claim that I made.
Telling people to read a huge essay is not an argument. I could just as easily tell you to read Jensen.
The Raven taps middle-class knowledge and skills. That’s a fact.
No it’s just a hypothesis. To test it we’d have to examine the Raven scores of lower class kids adopted by middle class parents & compare them to a control group of lower class kids raised by their biological parents. If such a study were done I suspect the middle class environment would show some benefits during childhood, but these would likely vanish by late adolescence.
“That’s just an assertion”
Do you think that what the Raven “measures” are characteristics of the problems or specifications of requisite cognitive processes?
“Telling people to read a huge essay is not an argument.”
The hereditarian claim is that since tests like the Raven are non-verbal, then this means that it’s culture-fair. But that’s nonsense. It’s nonsense because the rules and the logic of competing the puzzles correctly are dictated by the type of culture one is exposed to and grows up in. That hereditarian premise about tests like the Raven is straight nonsense.
And just like it’s not culture-fair for cultures in America (technically a cross-cultural comparison), the test had to be redone to transpose the figures to go right to left like in Arabic. That’s another proof it’s not culture-fair. Culture-fair/free rests are logically impossible.
Do you think that what the Raven “measures” are characteristics of the problems or specifications of requisite cognitive processes?
gibberish
The hereditarian claim is that since tests like the Raven are non-verbal, then this means that it’s culture-fair. But that’s nonsense. It’s nonsense because the rules and the logic of competing the puzzles correctly are dictated by the type of culture one is exposed to and grows up in.
The rules of the Raven are things like if the shapes in the top row are getting bigger, the shapes in the bottom row should get bigger too or rules like a black square is to a white square as a black circle is to a white circle. The ability to compare, contrast, generalize, associate and analogize are so abstract, subtle & implicit that no culture has a monopoly on them because all cultures meed these basic skills to acquire language.
The other reason we know culture fair tests are legit is the growth pattern they show as a function of age is much more consistent with biological maturation than with cultural experience
And just like it’s not culture-fair for cultures in America (technically a cross-cultural comparison), the test had to be redone to transpose the figures to go right to left like in Arabic. That’s another proof it’s not culture-fair.
The relevant question is not whether it’s fair in all possible cultures, but rather how much of the variation in a specified population can be explained by cultural bias? When the test is given in the Arab World the appropriate accommodation can be made. Now maybe if you gave the test to hunter-gatherers, who had no experience with paper-pencil tests you’d see a huge culture bias, but the test is probably not biased for the 90% of adults on Earth who have completed primary school.
How is that gibberish? Because that’s what Carpenter et al (1990) stated that Raven actually did—he described characters of the problems themselves, not any actual relevant cognitive processes. And he chose items for inclusion based on intuition and not any underlying cognitive processes and without regard for theory.
Richardson 1990 took 10 of the “hardest” Raven problems and couched them in familiar terms, keeping the underlying logic of the items from the abstract Raven problems, making them more relevant to the children. They scored better with the culturally relevant items, which shows that the Raven isn’t a culture-free measure of deductive/inductive logic.
As for your claim about primary school, that assumes that all children have the same exposure to the content, logic and rules, but that’s a false assumption. This is because tests like the Raven “tap highly formal and specific school skills related to text processing and decontextualized rule application, and are thus the most systematically acculturated tests”, therefore variation in Raven scores between individuals show “the degree of acculturation to the mainstream school skills of Western society” (Keating and Maclean, 1987). A 2014 dissertation showed that Tsimane who went to school had higher scores than Tsimane who didn’t. Tsimane who lived in the rainforest scored 31 percent right while Tsimane who went to school scored 72 percent right. This result had Steven Heine in his book “DNA is not Destiny” argue that “the cognitive skills of the Tsimane have developed to master the challenges that their environment places on them, and the Raven’s test simply does not tap into those skills. It’s not a reflection of some kind of true universal intelligence; it just reflects how well they can answer those items.”
rr: “I went to an alternative high school. They didn’t teach me anything that was on the test”
So they did not teach you specific math and reading/writing skills.
I remember in high school they did not teach me calculus.
All I did was work in the computer class.
and that work was me trying to understand what the buttons did by myself.
plus writing essays all day
I never took a prep class they told me of
they just gave us worksheets with no books
apparently I did well on the worksheets
because they moved me to different classes
but when I graduated, I did not do anything
I spent the past 15 years on SSDI
I did not feel better till I took the ADD meds 2 years ago
currently I can’t do anything in my life until my roomate fixes their car and leaves.
but my mom won’t help because mentally disabled.
and the social workers won’t give me my money
Sorry to hear that. And yea they didn’t teach the specific/relevant skills needed. I didn’t take any kind of prep class for SAT either. One day I was just sitting in front of a test I had no idea about and had to take without knowing the content. I remember scoring well on my CAT tests in 8th grade though.
Translation: He went to a special needs school. Theres no other explanation. That why he ‘doesn’t remember’. Its an embarrassment.
Look, you keep asking me to ‘debate’ you. You don’t even accept basic science. How are we going to talk to each other? I’ve blockquoted you twice about your own anti science beliefs and you panicked and said I was taking it out of context. I literally blockquoted 300 words.
The moment you said animals don’t have minds I realised as Anime says you have no ‘gee’ or intuition. Even normal IQ people know it. Theres not much point talking to someone that won’t understand anything I say.
“Translation: He went to a special needs school. Theres no other explanation. That why he ‘doesn’t remember’. Its an embarrassment.”
Haha what an idiot. If that were true then you would be able to debate me. Do it, pussy. Translation: “the philosopher” can’t debate me.
“You don’t even accept basic science.”
You must be a part of the “middle school science” crowd. Quite clearly, what I talk about is above middle school level. Idiot.
“I’ve blockquoted you twice about your own anti science beliefs and you panicked and said I was taking it out of context. I literally blockquoted 300 words.”
Go ahead and respond, coward. Why are you running away?
https://pumpkinperson.com/2024/06/20/big-brained-but-with-low-education-genes-how-smart-were-cro-magnons/comment-page-2/#comment-249379
“The moment you said animals don’t have minds I realised as Anime says you have no ‘gee’ or intuition. Even normal IQ people know it. Theres not much point talking to someone that won’t understand anything I say.”
Go ahead and try me. Do it, don’t just talk about it.
So does it follow that anyone who doesn’t believe that animals have minds “have no ‘gee’ or intuition”? Do you think “dumb people” can formulate valid/sound arguments for their beliefs? Answer these questions in this comment and address my comment in the link above. Stop running.
“I did not feel better till I took the ADD meds 2 years ago”
Did you take Concerta or Adderall? I took Concerta when I was a teenager and the side effects sucked. I felt like a robot, basically it stripped my emotion. And I couldn’t sleep. I stopped taking it after a week. I guess now I still have some “symptoms of ADD/ADHD” but I’m fine in life now. I’m not one for (pharma) drugs.
I tried an ADD med (ritalin or adderal or something) when I was 19 or 20, and what happened to me was I just felt my heart beat too fast while my concentration was not improved. The drug’s effects were too easily understandable/converted as physical for me, but maybe for others they can receive them as mental.
Then I tried Wellbutrin. Actually, my mood improved (around that time was the start of a serious depressive episode that lasted for basically 3 years), and I think it took me some time to realize it actually was probably the medication. However, I had delayed orgasms and I guess I also felt I could recover on my own anyway, so I just gave up taking anything at that point.
Well, I recovered but it took a lot of different, often painful, things to do that.
The ADD med I took was Strattera.
I know many old ADD meds had bad side effects.
The doctor who gave it to me was 70+ years old.
My right amygdala was overwhelmingly active.
The anxiety was intense, I could not sleep and was vomiting even when I did not eat anything.
I had burning sensations on the top of my head on the right side.
I believe the inhibitory control mechanism was burnt out.
–
I think that life is hard and that caused me to burnout where we have inhibitory control. The impulse to do stuff but not knowing what to do drives you crazy.
In school the had us do work non stop.
So then I think this is a kind of conditioning.
Forcing myself to keep going when the work is too hard.
“What do i do, what do i do, what do i do.”
The brain cannot function like this for years on end.
It contorts itself to keep going (OCD)
They would not help me until I went to the 70 yo doctor.
I didn’t flunk any grades but even I’m delaying taking the SAT until I learn basic geometry. Both Barack Obama and Bill Clinton had to stop helping their daughters with math homework once they got passed 8th grade & Bill Clinton has a freakishly high IQ. My guess RR simply doesn’t know anything about math and may also have struggled with the reading comprehension section of the SAT because autism.
The practice test Cartouche posted I got a IQ score of 109, but I could have gotten 117 if points were not subtracted for wrong answers.
Many were not geometric questions but more mental math where you could not use a calculator (only paper and pencil).
That is why I would say my working memory and processing speed are more likely to be 110 than 75
The practice SAT math test was timed.
And the WAIS-4 has strange instructions that lowered my speed and memory scores.
“because autism”
I’m not autistic.
So over the past 5 years the only country to do worse economically than the UK is Canada.
The main factor is immigration which the newspapers keep reminding will make us all richer any day now. Just waiting. Any day. Yeah, another 10 years. Pretty soon…
I was thinking how weird it is that anime treats Puppy like a big brother or something. Every single thing, Anime asks Puppy. What should I wear? What colour is the sky? Am i normal?
In reality, Anime might have a higher IQ than puppy by about 20 points.
So you think Anime’s IQ is 155?
Its roughly 100.
pp = 80?
pills iq is 20 points below pp
Why does RR say in his title description that he blogs about HBD??? He denies it even exists lol. What a clown. He is trying to trick alt right people into reading jewish anal philosophy. Very clever. Almost jewish behaviour.
So now you think RR is clever?
Shutup Puppy. More silliness.
Charlie Kirk and Cenk Ughyer did a very great debate about political theory today. Its on the Young Turks channel. Basically campaign finance is the cornerstone regulation thats needed in all ‘democracies’. Mugabe, who has autism, thinks you can have a ‘democracy’ with no campaign finance regulation.
Puppy, who has, same thing, believes campaign finance is ‘immoral’ because its against the ‘free market’ or some other religious deity.
You need campaign finance not for politicians, but for judges. If a judge takes a bribe he should be disbarred and banned from all public office. The penalty should be even more severe than for a corrupt politician or general or regulator.
Mugabe will now say banning corruption is ‘unconstitutional’. The founding fathers were too retarded to know about corruption you see…
Puppy, who has, same thing, believes campaign finance is ‘immoral’ because its against the ‘free market’ or some other religious deity.
FALSE! I’m a huge supporter of campaign finance reform & always have been. You have the worst memory of anyone in the comment section. You literally hallucinate memories.
You need campaign finance not for politicians, but for judges.
Low social IQ. You need it for both. The reason the Biden & congress do whatever Bibi tells them to do is they are owned by AIPAC & neocon billionaires.
indeed. pill has autism and mental retardation. it’s sad peepee hasn’t banned all of her retarded personalities.
he wants SCOTUS to do whatever he wants. the constitution doesn’t matter. then he talks about how corrupt judges are a problem.
he can’t tell the difference between moral and legal. he thinks unconstitutional means bad. mugabe 100% endorses constitutional amendments for campaign finance reform and gun control.
pill is too retarded to be allowed to comment.
autistic retarded clown!
Jesus fucking christ. What a fucking retard. You dont need a constitutional amendment for campaign finance and gun control. Its already in there. A well regulated militia. Its clear what the founders meant. Anyone not autistic knows the context of why they put that in there.
The founders also knew what corruption was. Theres already the emoulments clause. You don’t need a specific fucking sentence saying “Thou shall never be allowed assault rifles” or “Thou shalt not take bribes”. Its not realistic to expect people 400 years ago could see how campaigning or firearms were going to develop. I’m more of an originalist than Mugabe ever will be.
“A well regulated militia. Its clear what the founders meant. “
Lol.
I do agree with you philo, but you’re so fucking stupid and you don’t even know why.
Pill claimed even 25 years ago, no one cared about Billy Graham, yet he’s still so relevant, Trump just gave his son one of the top speaking slots at his convention. Pumpkin right again!
The point I make about the corrupt supreme court is that they make decisions against the intentions of the founders for the house in the hamptons or the yachts or whatever. Nobody serious really thinks the founders wanted politicians beholden to the aristocracy which is something that also existed 400 years ago.
There was no such thing as party committees, super pacs, or other campaign paraphenelia, but the concept of corruption was known.
The original fault with the constitution isn’t some analytic philosophy misinterpretation garbage, its simply that the supreme court has no ‘checks or balances’ against it. Once you corrupt the supreme court, all the other branches of government fall. There should have been an ability to do a discharge petition on a justice. People could vote on whether the justice was corrupt and get rid of him/her.
Realistically there has almost certainly been corrupt supreme court justices in the past. But they never were so extreme to legalise corruption or assert that the president can be a dictator if its Donald Trump, but not a dictator if its a left winger.
Well at least RR has the courage to say he went to a special needs remedial school. Usually teachers can tell within 2 weeks or so who in the class is going to struggle for the rest of the year or indeed, the rest of their life.
In Ireland theres no such thing as special needs school or the opposite – grammar schools or ‘genius’ schools. The teachers basically teach everyone the exact same content. After 9 years, you finally get split into higher level or ordinary, but you choose most of the subjects. So obviously people choose their strongest.
Theres such thing as ‘foundation’ level. And recently they brought in ‘Leaving Cert Applied’ for people like RR and Anime who basically due to retardation or mental health issues aren’t suitable for academia. The foundation level is basically for people that can barely write their own name. The test is literally you match the picture to the word. Obviously RR would fail this because his VIQ is in the toilet.
Anyways, theres no such thing as a SAT in Ireland. All I remember us ever doing was an IQ test when I was 15 or so and the guy pulled me in and told me I could become anything I wanted based on my scores.
” told me I could become anything I wanted based on my scores.”
And yet, you chose to be retarded. So sad.
I am certain your high score limits your ability to distinguish where people fall on the bell curve. Meaning everyone to you is below room temperature. That discernment just ain’t there in you.
Most people above 130 in american schools become delinquents because of boredom and poor screening tools in the poor areas.
Your underachievement vs my overachievement and subsequent burnout has been studied but only people like pp see those studies.
Because I kept fighting and clowning around in class. It was nothing to do with my academic performance.
“The test is literally you match the picture to the word. Obviously RR would fail this because his VIQ is in the toilet.”
Imagine actually believing this.
“when I was 15 or so and the guy pulled me in and told me I could become anything I wanted based on my scores.”
And yet you choose to be unhygienic and you consistently get fired from jobs.
I think there should be a SAT because I would guess the variation in teaching and whether teachers stick to the cirriculum or not is massive in Ireland.
Many of my teachers were literal priests. They had no idea what the hell they were doing. One guy literally taught us the exact same lesson for Gaelic 25 times.
You can tell by reading RR’s comments that he’s one of the more intelligent commenters. He just gets stage fright. That’s why he scored low on his SAT, why his IQ came back only slightly above average, and why he choked during that interview he had.
His comments just blatantly go over Philo and Anime’s heads, and Lurker, Pumpkin, and Mugs, seem to get it about 85% of the time.
There is just no way someone who is able to retain that kind of information, grasp complex concepts, and reach success in life has a low IQ.
What you said means you blatantly don’t understand chemistry melo.
99.9% of my disagreement with rr depends on understanding chemistry.
melo: “but you are being reductionist like rr said you were”.
Anime: “facepalm, depression, sadness”.
mello would say alleles and allele frequencies have no effect on phenotype in a chemical way (and rr would say that ethnicity is only due to developmental histories)
“mello would say alleles and allele frequencies have no effect on phenotype in a chemical way”
The fact that you think I or RR believe this showcases that you don’t understand our views.
I don’t think you have autism, but you clearly have some kind of learning disability.
no, you have not paid attention at all to what I said several times to rr melo.
without understanding that proteins make distinct chemical differences to biological systems then all you have is the denial of causal efficacy of genes because “muh dualism and shit”.
sufficient vs necessary causes are dumb word games because that tells you nothing about why biology functions in the way that it does, rr denied that the color of hair and thus even skin tone can be effected by allele’s for Gods sake. and you are simply showing you agree with that bullshit.
melo: “my views and shit, you don’t understand, your learning disabled”
Anime: “ok man, basic science and shit don’t matter to you, you win in you head”
” rr denied that the color of hair and thus even skin tone can be effected by allele’s”
Where did he say this? Go ahead and point it out.
“Where did he say this? Go ahead and point it out.”
I’d love to see this too. But he has a history of not backing his claims, especially when he says I said something. I’ve written on skin color before, so let’s see if he can point something out like that in the below.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2019/05/12/black-and-white-skin/
The claim is that the genetic effects aren’t INDEPENDENT of the goings-on in the biological system to cause the phenotype in question, since there are other context-dependent effects from other resources. I don’t know how one can say that I think “that the color of hair and thus even skin tone can be effected by alleles.”
By that logic nothing can be affected by anything because everything is interconnected.
The hereditarian claim is that genes are independent causes, right? That’s a claim that’s directly refuted with how our understanding of genes and what they do have changed since even 1985 with Oyama’s “The Ontogeny of Information.” The claim—which I have argued at length—is that all resources are necessary and that what is sufficient isn’t merely one resource but all of them working in concert. It specifically refutes hereditarian dogma.
You’re conflating independent cause with sufficient cause. A cause does NOT have to be sufficient to be independent. No one ever thought DNA was a sufficient cause of anything. How could it be?
If that’s the case then what is the point of the hereditarian-behavioral-genetic program?
Correlations are inevitable—what needs to be done are physiological analyses, GWAS can’t show us causation and, necessarily, the larger the sample size the higher the chance for spurious correlations (which is all GWAS show).
Testing for statistical significance is supposed to rule out chance correlations
What’s the point of you being a physical trainer if exercise is not a sufficient cause of fitness?
The issue is, as Richardson argued, that the correlations are spurious and inevitable. We know that there will necessarily be correlations, and the work needs to be done to show causation, using physiological analysis which is something that to the best of my knowledge hasn’t been done.
One needs to do physical activity to reach certain PA goals, there’s no discussion about that. I don’t think that’s a good analogy. The issue is hereditarianism is a specific set of beliefs and assumptions which just don’t pan out.
Why do you think Gottfredson coined “the interactionist fallacy” in 2009 and why did Rushton and Jensen lie about interactionism in 2005 if it’s seemingly no big deal? Because interactionism threatens hereditarianism.
The issue is, as Richardson argued, that the correlations are spurious and inevitable.
Statistically significant correlations are NOT inevitable, by definition.
We know that there will necessarily be correlations, and the work needs to be done to show causation, using physiological analysis which is something that to the best of my knowledge hasn’t been done.
One thing at a time
One needs to do physical activity to reach certain PA goals, there’s no discussion about that. I don’t think that’s a good analogy. The issue is hereditarianism is a specific set of beliefs and assumptions which just don’t pan out.
They pan out in more useful ways than your work does. Did you know that there are entire communities of Ashkenazi Jews who have all but eliminated Tay sachs and other genetic diseases by practicing genetic therapy. Try telling these people genes don’t independently cause disease and they’ll laugh you out of the room.
Why do you think Gottfredson coined “the interactionist fallacy” in 2009 and why did Rushton and Jensen lie about interactionism in 2005 if it’s seemingly no big deal? Because interactionism threatens hereditarianism.
You haven’t presented evidence of interactionism as they define it. You’ve presented evidence of insufficient causation which no one disputes. See Mug of Pee’s old comments on reaction norms if you want to know what they mean by interactionism.
Here’s the formalized argument:
P: Societies are genetically stratified.
Q: Social stratification maintains genetic stratification.
R: Social stratification creates cognitive stratification.
(1) If P and Q, then R.
(2) P.
(3) Q.
(4) Therefore, R.
S: Tests reflect prior social stratification.
T: Associations between genes and test scores are spurious/confounded.
(5) If R and S, then T.
(6) R and S.
(7) Therefore, T.
So since social stratification creates cognitive stratification and test score results reflect prior social stratification, then any associations between genes and test scores found in GWAS are due to confounding rather than a direct genetic link. So put another way: genetic stratification leads to social stratification which creates cognitive stratification. Test score results reflect prior social stratification which confounds the associations between genes and test scores.
Here’s how Richardson put it:
“First, there is already some cryptic but functionally irrelevant genetic stratification in human populations, which, quite likely, will covary with social stratification or social class. Second, this genetic stratification will correlate, adventitiously, with cognitive variation. Thirdly, the “dependent” variables (CA and EA) are themselves used to perpetuate social structure—and thereby the genetic structure—through social policy. This invalidates statistical assumptions of independence used in GWAS/PGS analyses. Generally, it raises questions about cause and effects: Are the observed genetic variations the cause of differences in CA and EA or are they a mere side effect of social stratification and underlying genetic stratification?”
“Tay sachs”
If the cellular stress’s response system fails to manage protein misfolding then the lysosomal system becomes overloaded. If the lysosomal system is overloaded, then glycosphingolipids accumulate in neurons, then Tay Sachs disease occurs. So if the cellular stress response system fails to manage protein misfolding then Tay Sachs disease occurs. This contextualizes the function of genes showing the role of the cellular stress response and lysosomal systems and it shows that gene function a contextual and dependent on other systems (as the biological relativity/causal parity view attests to), it distributes causality across multiple systems, emphasizes emergent properties, and also implicates environmental and epigenetic factors. It shifts focus from individual genes to the cellular and systemic context. So genes aren’t independent causes over and above other developmental resources.
How do Rushton and Jensen and Gottfredson define it? Can you point out what is wrong in these articles that respond to those claims?
So since social stratification creates cognitive stratification
How do you know? Herrnstein & Murray argued the opposite. Cognitive differences cause social stratification because smart people get to the top & dumb folks fall behind (on average)
and test score results reflect prior social stratification, then any associations between genes and test scores found in GWAS are due to confounding rather than a direct genetic link.
That would only be true if test scores really were a function of social stratification (adoptions studies suggest they’re not in adults) and if social stratification itself was not caused by IQ (but it is in part)
If all the genes Piffer cites were not causal, then why do they predict IQ differences between races? How would social stratification within one race so perfectly predict genetic IQ differences between many different races, unless the genes were CAUSING the social stratification, both within races & between them?
So genes aren’t independent causes over and above other developmental resources.
Yes they are because every baby born with 2 altered HEXA alleles will have tay Sachs and every baby born without them will not. It’s literally 100% heritable. It doesn’t get anymore causal than that. You can literally cure tay sachs with 100% certainty if you edit the DNA of the embryo to remove one of the altered HEXA genes. You can literally eradicate the disease from entire communities just by telling un-afflicted carriers of just one allele of the gene do not have kids.
How do Rushton and Jensen and Gottfredson define it?
If the same genetic variant or genotype increased the phenotype in one environment but decreased it in another, that would be an interaction.
“How do you know?”
Due to the nature of IQ tests and the item content on them. It follows that social stratification would cause cognitive stratification. Cultural and psychological tools are different between groups and that’s what one needs to score well—access to the relevant cultural and psychological tools, thus social stratification creates cognitive stratification.
“Herrnstein and Murray argued the opposite”
And they were wrong. Chuck hasn’t said a thing about this paper in 10 years, wonder why?
https://sociologicalscience.com/articles-v3-23-520/
“adoptions studies suggest they’re not in adults”
Source?
“Piffer”
Go ahead and explain to me how genes would be causing social stratification within and between race. (I’ll ignore the correlation-causation thing for now.)
“tay Sachs”
The necessary causes are the failure of the cellular stress response to manage protein misfolding, lysosomal system overload, and glycoaphingolipid accumulation in the neurons. Those are the key components that contribute to mechanism of disease, while the sufficient causes are the failure of these systems.
What I’m proposing is a system failure and accumulations which shows the emergent properties of the mechanism of disease. I’m actually explaining how it occurs. You, in typical hereditarian fashion, are basically saying “genes go brrrr.”
Re: Rushton, Jensen and Gottfredson: R and J said “if gene–environment interactions make it impossible to disentangle causality and apportion variance, for pragmatic purposes that view is indistinguishable from the 100% culture-only program because it denies any potency to the genetic component proposed by hereditarian.” They call interactionism and “intermediate position.” And Gottfredson was talking about heritability, and she basically denies organismal development and engaged in developmental denialism.
https://thefreephenotype.weebly.com/home/developmental-denialism
How do you know?”
Due to the nature of IQ tests and the item content on them. It follows that social stratification would cause cognitive stratification.
You’re being like pill; just relying on your intuition. But in order to be rigorous, you have to do actual experiments, where social environments are changed for random people & test scores are the dependent variable.
“adoptions studies suggest they’re not in adults”
Source?
Jensen 1998, Flynn 2016. The two biggest names in the field and both on opposite sides of the debate, yet both agree that adoption studies show conclusively that the household you grew up in has ZERO effect on later adult IQ. It was the subject of Flynn’s last book.
Go ahead and explain to me how genes would be causing social stratification within and between race.
By increasing intelligence, which allows you to figure out how to achieve a better social strata. If you’re right & that social strata in turn increases test scores, then that would just multiply the effect, but the initial cause would be genes. The analogy I’d make is only tall people being high social strata enough to afford high heel boots which would increase their scores on height measures, but the underlying cause would be genes even if it were mediated by social strata.
“tay Sachs”
The necessary causes are the failure of the cellular stress response to manage protein misfolding, lysosomal system overload, and glycoaphingolipid accumulation in the neurons. Those are the key components that contribute to mechanism of disease, while the sufficient causes are the failure of these systems.
What I’m proposing is a system failure and accumulations which shows the emergent properties of the mechanism of disease. I’m actually explaining how it occurs. You, in typical hereditarian fashion, are basically saying “genes go brrrr.”
Well it’s impressive that you have the general knowledge to explain it, but it doesn’t change the fact that none of that leads to Tay Sachs unless the DNA contains 2 altered HEXA alleles and babies with 2 altered HEXA alleles ALWAYS haves Tay Sachs. The HEXA alleles explain 100% of the variation in the phenotype so adding all your “emergent properties”,”cellular stress responses” and “mechanism” add nothing to our ability to predict who gets Tay Sachs if we already know the DNA.
Re: Rushton, Jensen and Gottfredson: R and J said “if gene–environment interactions make it impossible to disentangle causality and apportion variance, for pragmatic purposes that view is indistinguishable from the 100% culture-only program because it denies any potency to the genetic component proposed by hereditarian.”
Okay sorry I’m wrong, they were defining interactionism as gene-environment feedback loops. For example as you know, one theory is high IQ genes causing kids to be smarter but then smarter kids get sent to better schools which raise their IQ even more causing a multiplier effect. The twin studies will give all the credit to genes because even though the direct cause was the school environment, it was the genes that caused that environment in the first place!
One clever statement I read is “it’s not nature vs nurture, it’s nature via nurture”. This is one area where Jensen contradicts himself which is why I so regret never contacting him before he died. I’ve argued that twin studies from India could help resolve this issue because the caste system was so rigid, gene environment interactions were almost impossible if you’re a bright kid from a low caste.
I’m not relying on my intuition, I’m relying on arguments.
Which adoption study?
I’m confused with your claim about genes and “intelligence”, mind explaining the pathways?
Regarding Tay Sach’s, you’re talking as if DNA sequences (genes) aren’t also implicated—the claim is that they are not PRIVILEGED causes over and above other resources, and I think my explanation on sufficient and necessary causes for Tay Sach’s suffices.
Regarding Rushton and Jensen’s statement on interactionism, I think I responded well to that in the below.
When it comes to “genes causing environments” that’s ridiculous—humans create environments. (Seems like a variation of the mereological fallacy in neuroscience/psychology.)
Regarding the “clever statement”, is that to mean that our nature’s are acquired through nurture? Behaviors develop, and appear due to reliable environments, again I see no need for any kind of appeal to genes here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182125/
Which adoption study?
Read the heritability chapter in Jensen’s 1998 book “The g Factor”
I’m confused with your claim about genes and “intelligence”, mind explaining the pathways?
We don’t know them yet.
Regarding Tay Sach’s, you’re talking as if DNA sequences (genes) aren’t also implicated—the claim is that they are not PRIVILEGED causes over and above other resources, and I think my explanation on sufficient and necessary causes for Tay Sach’s suffices.
No one’s forcing you to privilege anything but the fact remains, every child who has ever inherited a mutated hexa gene from both parents has had the disease and the only known way to stop the disease is either to edit the genome or prevent carriers from mating.
P1: Genes predict an organism’s phenotype
P2: Organism’s with some phenotypes produce more surviving offspring than others
P3: Pheotypes with more surviving offspring become more common
C: Given P1 and P3, genes that predict more re-productively successful phenotypes become more common and we call this evolution.
You are so stupid melo.
rr repeatedly says believing gene influence stuff is reductionist.
I said multiple times, and you can’t deny I said it multiple times. proteins shapes matter to the chemistry of organisms.
rr said: “chemically different proteins do not change the feedback loops of reactions in an organism in a simple, predictable manner.”
anime said: “they change things in a complex manner, yes
because interactions are complex
no two humans are exactly the same
we are all made of totally different chemical reactions
these reactions are probabilistic in what they do
homeostasis requires the loops to do stuff complexly”
rr: “prove it”
Anime says: so if you don’t get what I said above then hair colors and cannot be influenced by genes in any way.
rr: “The claim is that the genetic effects aren’t INDEPENDENT of the goings-on in the biological system to cause the phenotype in question, since there are other context-dependent effects from other resources. I don’t know how one can say that I think “that the color of hair and thus even skin tone can be effected by alleles.””
Anime says: That rr is very definition of a hereditarian so RaceRealist is a hereditarian because he believes hair colors can be gene influenced i.e inherited genes and alleles differences.
alleles = genes with differences
you two melo and rr refuse to understand:
genes influencing hair color = animes view on chemistry
rr/melo: “but reditionism”
anime: “you guys win in your heads”
“Hereditarianism” is a specific set of beliefs about the so-called genetic inheritance of psychological traits. The claim that there aren’t genes “for” traits is one that’s well-known. Koatas Kampourakis has a specific chapter on this in his book “Making Sense of Genes.” The interaction of causes means you can’t identify one as THE cause, do you get that? I think that hereditarianism is about genes being SUFFICIENT CAUSES for traits, which is why GWASs have been carried out, but we know they are NECESSARY so there will be a NECESSARY correlation between some traits and some genes—which doesn’t tell us anything about trait ontogeny. Your “but hair and noses” claim doesn’t refute biological relativity/the causal parity thesis (which I argued to TP in this comment section, go ahead and tell me what is false about the arguments and why what you’re saying refutes the arguments). (Nevermind the fact that GWAS studies show low “variance explained” (something like 10 percent for IQ), which is expected since there are non-causal relationships between social class/IQ and genes.)
rr: “Your “but hair and noses” claim doesn’t refute biological relativity/the causal parity thesis”
why do you think i am refuting that?
you win in your head again
you say hereditarian is a specific belief
that all traits are inherited to cause traits
but you refuse to admit differences exist that are not inherited i.e. variance in evolution, anime said not a single human is the same, we all are different.
genes might not be THE cause of all psychology but because of “muh dualism” they cannot influence any psychology at all in your view.
this means that even the gene variant I have where I get more dopamine in my system cannot influence me in any way. that you rr believe increased dopamine levels cannot influence psychology is stupid. and that applies to any and all genes as they add up in the system. gene variants add up so much that it is like looking at people on the outside, you say everyone is different on the outside but cannot be different on the inside.
in principle why do you rr believe everyone is different on the outside but not the inside? “muh dualism”? that proves you are dumb as pill says you are if you truly believe that, if you truly believe genes did not influence animekittys psychology (alleles of neurotransmitters and other chemical traits).
“but you refuse to admit differences exist that are not inherited i.e. variance in evolution, anime said not a single human is the same, we all are different.”
I’ve never stated that “differences exists.” Sure we can find correlations between genes and traits. But look at what happened during the candidate gene era.
“they cannot influence any psychology at all in your view.”
Correct.
“gene variants add up so much”
What do you mean by “gene variants add up so much”? Like positive and negative charges?
A priori, genes can’t affect psychology. But I’m done talking about that. Let’s talk about the failure of GWAS and candidate genes. Let’s discuss specific papers like Beaver et al’s 2014 MAOA paper.
why do my meds work if chemistry cannot influence psychology?
alleles just make it so chemical growth pathways change at different rates with the brain wiring.
differences brain chemical fluxes should make psychology different in the same way bodies differ in chemical reaction to different sports stresses and food intake. when a crystal is made of different materials it crystalizes differently, alleles make the brains materials not the same in each person. no one has the same psychology in regard to chemical materials and their rates of interaction.
basically you rr imply all psychology is the same even with differences in chemistry makeup of brain physics.
You are saying thermodynamics of brains have no psychological consequences.
https://www.britannica.com/
reaction rate, in chemistry, the speed at which a chemical reaction proceeds. It is often expressed in terms of either the concentration (amount per unit volume) of a product that is formed in a unit of time or the concentration of a reactant that is consumed in a unit of time.
pp made a good point about genetic diseases.
as to rr,
genes don’t do anything in the same way stop signs don’t do anything but without them we would have more car wrecks.
so rr is being obscure, genes in the cell as they are do not cause psychology to be different being inside the cell nucleus, but without them people would not differ in psychology. I have more dopamine in my system which causes psychological changes but the genes are not doing anything in the rr sense in the cells as they are, it is the dopamine doing it but l would not have more dopamine if I was born without the gene for more dopamine. This word game is retarded and I am angry at rr for doing it. fact is that psychology has been influenced and I am different from birth with more dopamine. my clone would have more dopamine as well.
That assumes mind-brain identity though. Go ahead and give me some references that genes are causal for psychological traits and differences in them between individuals/groups.
I don’t claim that “all psychology is the same”—again, the claim is that genes can’t influence psychology and I, again, don’t even need the dualist argument for that. Just look at twin h2 compared to SNP h2—there’s a “missing heritability problem” for a reason and that’s because the assumptions of twin studies are invalid. This has led to the current GWAS hype. So just like behavioral geneticists had to admit that the candidate gene era was a failure so too will they admit GWAS was a failure. But they’ll only admit that once they have their new “toy”, for while they’ll claim that unlike candidate genes, GCTA, and GWAS, they will finally be able to account for “missing heritability.”
Ak: body changes effect psychology because interacting in the world require us to perceive with brainwaves and those waves change based on activated loops directing them with external stimuli.
rr: muh dualism, even if changes happen everyone interacts in the same way with the world even if brains are different.
Ak: but you said crystallization is different, how can psychology not be different? crystallization rates = different understanding of the world because you change how you interact with it.
rr: body and mind are separate
Ak: if you damage your body then not psychology is effected?
rr: yes, rr cuts out his left amydala
Ak: so did you psychology change?
rr: rr starts acting impulsive like phineas gage but still claims Ak is wrong with curse word and throwing fecal matter at his computer.
Ak: sad
How does any of that interact with what I said? I haven’t found any form of dualism that denies that there need to be physical facts for tete to be mental facts—that is, the brain is a necessary pre-condition for human mindedness but not a sufficient condition therefore damage to the brain could—but not always—affect the mind.
Try interacting with my comment and what I argued.
So damage to the brain will affect the minds psychology but the way brains grow due to different chemical makeup will not?
You don’t have any arguments to back that up.
How am I supposed to argue with a red herring fallacy?
Brains are a necessary pre-condition for minds so if there is damage then possibly there could be a change to the mind. Again, try interacting with my previous comment.
peepee citing piffer’s paper again because mentally retarded LIAR.
It makes sense that a carpenter who flunked junior high would say a gym worker is a genius.
I get every single RR argument. In fact I can write his arguments for him, but upgraded, with better sophistry. 99.9% of RR’s copy and paste jobs from jews are word games. RR can’t figure out that ‘necessary’ and ‘sufficient’ doesn’t describe reality. The reality is genes cause behaviour period. Period. Period.
We also need gravity, thermodynamics, the sun etc for genes to cause behaviour. So genes aren’t ‘sufficient’ in his small little IQ brain. Because we need the sun you see. And water. And so on. Idiot. Sophistry.
You and him don’t understand logic. You think word logic overrides pure logic. Hence why both have you have not academic record beyond special needs school.
I’ll give you a pro tip. If you really want to describe the nuts and bolts of these types of phenomenon, you stop using words and use math instead because words are ‘insufficient’ in the jewish/RR terminology to describe relations between these category of variables.
^^^This is a high VIQ comment that RR and Melo will not be able to understand. RR will immediately double down on low IQ word games to describe reality. Gotta save black power. Hahaha.
Black powah!
Black powah!
Justice for Harlem!
Black Powah!
(Please don’t embarass my religious idols of worship).
“RR can’t figure out that ‘necessary’ and ‘sufficient’ doesn’t describe reality. The reality is genes cause behaviour period. Period. Period.”
RR knows that genes cause behavior; he just thinks that hereditarians overemphasize their importance when explaining behavior.
The fact that he says, “genes are necessary causes” proves that he thinks they’re causes.
“You think word logic overrides pure logic. Hence why both have you have not academic record beyond special needs school.”
“Word logic” and “pure logic” aren’t actual things. There is a fine line between analytic philosophy and sophistry, but what RR does 90% of the time is not “word games.” We use words to label concepts, and arguing about the definitions of words can help us understand our concepts more.
And actually, I just graduated with my associate’s. I’m going for a bachelor’s next. I think RR is in some kind of program, too, but I forget what he said.
Regardless, you don’t understand what’s being said, and it’s so painfully obvious.
“RR can’t figure out that ‘necessary’ and ‘sufficient’ doesn’t describe reality.”
If X isn’t necessary or sufficient for Y, why would talking about X matter in discussions about Y? If X doesn’t contribute to the truth/occurrence of Y, then discussing X—in the context of Y—provides no insight in discussing Y. If there’s no necessary or sufficient relationship, then there’s no logical connection and it’s redundant. So if X is neither necessary nor sufficient for Y, then X is irrelevant in a discussion of Y.
“The reality is genes cause behaviour period.”
It depends on what you mean by “cause.” If you mean “necessary cause”, then that’s right since all developmental resources are necessary causes. But if you mean “sufficient cause”, then you’re wrong because all developmental resources work in concert to produce the phenotype, meaning that none of the resources are sufficient. If you have an argument that refutes Noble’s argument for biological relativity, I’d love to hear it.
If genes are passive information carriers, then they do not initiate biological processes independently. Genes do not initiate their own transcription or replication, they react to triggering signals within a biological system. So genes are passive information carriers. If genes are passive information carrier, they cannot be considered an active cause of biological processes.
Biological systems—including genes—do not operate in jsolarjoit, but are part of complex, context-dependent networks. The effects of genes are influenced by the broader physiological and environmental context. So, a priori, there is no privileged level of causation in biological systems, and biological causation—including genetic causation—is relative and context-dependent.
“We also need gravity, thermodynamics, the sun etc for genes to cause behaviour. So genes aren’t ‘sufficient’ in his small little IQ brain. Because we need the sun you see. And water. And so on. Idiot. Sophistry.”
You almost understand the distinction between necessary and sufficient causation, keep it up.
“You and him don’t understand logic.”
That’s patently false. Just read my comment here.
“If you really want to describe the nuts and bolts of these types of phenomenon, you stop using words and use math instead because words are ‘insufficient’ in the jewish/RR terminology to describe relations between these category of variables.”
“These types of phenomenon” need a sound theory that accurately accurately describes their reality, which makes, what how, and why the relationship matters. Without a theory grounded in reality, what you said is irrelevant. It may have been 100 years ago when we just discovered genes/DNA sequences, but today we have a better theoretical understanding of genes and their role in the biological system.
Let’s see if you have the “general knowledge…” to coherently respond to this comment.
yeah, it’s sophistry. He engages in academic jargon obscurantism, and when one dissects his arguments, he changes to another line of obscurantism. So basically he has us chasing our tails. I don’t see why you guys engage him so much. It is a waste of energy.
you are from Ireland? Do you live in the US now? What part?
Another one making baseless claims. Go ahead and prove it.
And TP is an American LARPer, he doesn’t live in America.
An Irishman that constantly talks about American politics, blacks, and Jews but never talks about their own country. He’s not American. He LARPs as one though.
Tactically he might engage debating as you’ve said, but his actual arguments are logical or at least point to something true. Genetics interact with the rest of the cell which interacts with the environment. How closed the developmental system is to outside environmental influences is hard to say even in any one case, and whether those environments can be said to differ significantly enough that they matter is also hard to say except for obvious cases like starvation or dissolving various parts of an organism using acid or something.
Also, causation of psychological traits is completely unknown to empirical science, because true causation of anything (generation of all matter and the laws that govern them) is unknown, and the uncertainty principle means the physical world itself is not deterministic in a classical physical causation manner.
But the conclusions that he seems to draw from them are his own subjective ones that seem to lean on the blank slatist side. And he will indeed use gay jewish propaganda to support his arguments without always acknowledging that his bias is towards that side and instead presents them as “objective”, and does like to dazzle with references and obscure technical language.
This will be the final stance on RR. Please do not debate or comment on him further without acknowledging these hard-won and carefully explained understandings.
Allow this explains the ideas behind most of RR’s arguments against genetic determinism, “reductionism”, and maybe against natural selection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_systems_theory
Lurker, yea I agree with most of that. I do draw my own conclusions from research and the like. I think everyone is biased to a point, and I’ve thought very deeply about these issues to arrive at the views I have today. I won’t say I’m “not biased” because everyone here is, but I think I bring a solid point of view here.
Philo, Mugabe, and other Alt-reichers remind me of Andrew Tate in this debate:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ugfvXgO8OTc
It’s actually insane how they can think everyone else is brainwashed when they all regurgitate the same talking points.
It was great watching Destiny eviscerate him.
Black powah!
Melo would literally prefer to set himself on fire than be deported to the philippennes to live with non whites. He can’t say that out loud because it would break his ego. It would break the jewish coding in his brain. But if he had the choice, he would set himself on fire.
I’d actually be worshipped in the Philippines for my whiteness.
My ego doesn’t rest on ethnicity. I would not choose to live in a ghetto place, I’ve done that before and it’s not fun. But that’s regardless of the racial composition. I wouldn’t want to live in a white trash area either.
Puppy and Melo and I guess at this stage Mugabe are impressed with a guy that copy and pasted jewish articles for his blog.
Theres actually no evidence RR has read…never mind understood….these articles or books. If I went into Steinwitz and Rosenthal (1999) I would not expect to see puerile word games.
Jews have 50 IQ points on RR. What I would expect to see is
Good ol circular referencing (jews referencing other guys from the synagogue in organised groups), rigged studies, cherry picking data, p hacking, moral browbeating (ie quoting non scientific papers ‘arguments’) and of course good ol fake news.
To this day, you will still see jews claim IQ testing and academic testing and indeed any testing in any domain is not possible because its racist against dumb people i.e blacks. Just watch. RR quote me your strongest jewish article and if I have time we can play jewish bingo where everytime one of the above non sequiters comes up I’ll take a whiskey shot.
“Theres actually no evidence RR has read…never mind understood….these articles or books. If I went into Steinwitz and Rosenthal (1999) I would not expect to see puerile word games.”
There’s actually no evidence that what you’re saying is true. Prove it.
“Good ol circular referencing (jews referencing other guys from the synagogue in organised groups), rigged studies, cherry picking data, p hacking”
Hilarious because this describes behavioral genetics and Lynn was the master of circular referencing, referring to his buddies Kanazawa, Hart and Rushton when he talked of the “general acceptance” of his cold winters theory.
Its actually an embarrassment for me to talk to people like this.
That said, I would possibly prefer to be stuck in a bar with Melo/RR/special needs person than with Bruno. Talking with Bruno would be literally exactly the same as talking to Chat GPT. If you asked Bruno an open ended question he would short circuit.
Whereas at least with the clowns you can talk sports, celebs, holidays and things.
I see Mugabe’s ‘legal analysis’ also leads you to the conclusion we can’t have financial regulations, pharma regulations, sewage regulations, toy manufacturer regulations, clown attire regulations, antitrust, or indeed traffic lights because these are all ‘not in the constitution.
Mugabe belongs in special needs remedial school with RR but for autism reasons.
Notice the way in 7 years RR has never actually argued anything using ‘gee’. He just says what jews say.
If you catch him on camera puppy give him a simple math question and he might literally take 5 minutes and still get it wrong.
Now you’re just lying.
I think the most interesting aspects in all of academia or intellectual pursuits is that jews never say their true opinion 99.9% of the time but always know the correct answer. No other race or people do this. Its kind of funny when you think about it.
99% of the worlds problems could be solved if jews were autistic and always told the truth.
Does 170 IQ george soros really think Putin wants to invade Europe? Does genius Stephen Gould really think that blacks are as smart as other races? Does historian Max Boot really think Putin is crazy? Hahaha. Does John Liebowitz/Stewart really think America needs open borders? Does Weinstein really think Oprah is a great producer? Does Sam Bankman Fried really think crypto is an ‘asset class’?
Only they know the real answer!
Does Weinstein really think Oprah is a great producer?
Yes! Oprah had the #1 talk show in American history so she brought unprecedented promotional power to any movie she produced. That’s the role of a producer.
I don’t think they “know the right answer” as much as they feign that they believe X without really believing it. So while a typical jew might say “any race has the equal potential for intelligence and achievement” they would be basing it on a bunch of verbalized arguments that support it without necessarily feeling it in their “gut” or their Gestalt view of the world.
The number of femininsts, communists, LGBTQ people, and interracial relationships among jews seems to be significantly higher than the White average. So it’s not as if they don’t believe what they preach at all. It’s just probably not to the degree that they portray. Maybe that’s the business mindset of not putting all your eggs in one basket… but at the same time still going forward and portraying confidence in your choice.
I saw a 4chan meme about how jewish behavior is like female behavior. I think it’s kind of true here: Women will pretend to be nicer than they are, they’ll play it safe. But they’re also good at lying and manipulating themselves.
They know the correct answers. 100% Milton Friedman knew everything he was paid to say was bullshit. Every single neocon knows what the deal is. Every single jewish comedian knows what jokes would actually be true and funny.
Well, I’m someone not in connected jewish circles, so it may be that my understanding of the interactions amongst themselves is lacking. I’m a very atomized person, went to a public school, with mostly an individual identity, I grew up in a tiny town and a lot of the people didn’t even speak my language in the first place. I have little clannish instincts besides for my close relatives and friends. I don’t really identify with any groups and try to distance myself from such identifications and obligations. This is quite different from the experiences of 99% of jews.
Anyway, my biases/worldview/Weltanschauung could be underestimating how many jews believe one thing for Goyim and another for themselves. Either way, I thought I’ve seen stats showing they are more likely to intermarry and identify as LGBTQ. I know they are the most left-leaning of any “white” group.
When I see someone go full transgender, taking hormones and getting surgery, or marrying a black person and having kids, I assume they do believe their leftist values.
But when jews tell the truth, it really is like watching sunlight. But its very rare. Even if you pay them, they won’t say it.
Have you ever read a fiction book?
Yes, horror books, but i’m low on schiz
https://charts.idrlabs.com/graphic/3-minute-x?p=20
take the test:
https://www.idrlabs.com/3-minute-schizotypal/test.php
“Minimal Indication of Schizotypal Personality Disorder
Your answers suggest a minimal indication of schizotypal personality disorder. In clinical contexts, cases such as yours should be diligently investigated, but typically would not meet the criteria for the diagnosis of schizotypal personality disorder.
However, please note that tests such as this one cannot replace the judgment of an actual healthcare worker. If you feel that these results are inaccurate, you should schedule an appointment with a doctor or a mental health professional now.”
Idiotic test doesn’t give a score; can you provide the meter it shows?
“Moderate Indication of Schizotypal Personality Disorder”
Around the fourth line.
The problem is, I know what answers I gave that would indicate that (being weird, and thinking my consciousness could affect reality, etc.). But they are controlled beliefs that are more metaphysical (like if you think God is listening in some sense). Though when I was younger I was a bit on the paranoid side, but it never became fantastical.
Mine was on the third line.
RR and I got the same score. I was on the third line.
line 11
Your answers suggest a very strong indication of schizotypal personality disorder. You may find that you have persistent eccentric behavior, few close relationships, inappropriate emotional responses, social anxiety, incorrect interpretation of events, paranoid thoughts, and/or a belief in special powers. In clinical contexts, your case would probably warrant active treatment in the form of psychotherapy. Family support might also be in order. If you feel that you answered these questions truthfully, it is important that you schedule an appointment with your doctor or a mental health professional who can assist you in making a proper diagnosis.
pill is normal compared to me
LOL.
You can tell Philo is enraged because he started spamming his unhinged rants after I pointed out how dumb he is. He even started insulting Bruno, he always does that when he’s mad, he has a weird inferiority complex about that guy.
Funnily enough Bruno actually tends to understand RRs arguments. I pointed out Anime and Philo’s inability to do so and they proceeded to prove me right.
Look I give you and RR credit for being candid about your academic history. RR was special needs and you seem to have basically been what we call here in Ireland a ‘leaving cert applied candidate’. Not everyone evolved to be good at academics. My dad joined the army. My mother is not even fit to work in a supermarket.
Even people like Ganzir and Bruno who do well in academics don’t actually understand what they rote learn due to the autism thing. So a good grade doesn’t mean anything sometimes.
You have to understand young Melo that sometimes you can admit youre wrong and its doesn’t mean youre a bad person and that the world is going to end. You can admit jews control everything and not be a bad person Melo. You will actually find it makes it easier for you to have conversations with high IQ non autistic people and learn some things. You can admit blacks didn’t evolve to be good at civilisation and not be a bad person. They are great entertainers and athletes. Talk about that if you want to feel ‘the goodfeelz’.
At the end of the day you and RR and Puppy need to sit down and (presuming you can have an internal dialogue in your head) figure out what a good person and a bad person is. Real philosophy. Not analytical autism philosophy. Real hardcore fundamentals. What would a good person look like, say, act, know, want?
Anyways, I don’t hate you two stupid clowns like I hate the 150IQ plus Bruno. Bruno is a smarmy autistic upper class neoliberal retard that thinks he knows everything but doesn’t seem to actually know anything beyond training for the Math Olympiad, which I actually know more about because I did math with my country’s Math Olympiad respresentative. Bruno has never commented at length on any other topic. GO back through 7 years and look. He doesn’t have opinions or ideas because, you know, theres nothing going on in that gunged up brain.
PS Bruno disagrees with everything RR says. Ask him. 90% of the past and present commenters find RR stupid and annoying. At least 5 people have called RR a troll.
Puppy can put up a poll with his readers tomorrow and prove me right about how popular jewish ‘philosophy’ papers are to people that want to learn about psychometrics and genetics.
Translation: If you don’t agree with me about Jews and blacks, you’re an idiot. Go ahead and respond to my comments and sustain a discussion with me on it.
If you can’t, then you have low general knowledge…
I don’t really care about being a good person, I care about being right and your ideas severely lack nuance.
I disagree with RR about a lot, but I actually understand what he’s saying, you don’t.
You think I am stupid for my disagreements with rr.
You are not able to follow MY arguments with him.
So you cannot be intellectually honest.
You care deeply about being on the ‘right side’ of history and all that. I remember what it was like. I was a liberal when I was young too.
Believe it or not, I also believed in magic negro once upon a time.
I have an inferiority complex to nobody really. Some people are taller and better built than me I guess. Some people have upper class or famous parents.
I don’t admire Bruno’s bizarre ‘Sheldon’ personality or his IQ score. Mugabe or Jimmy probably have a lower IQ and is much more intelligent on a functional basis. Marsha has a higher intelligence than Bruno and agrees with everything I say and asked me if I wanted to write a book.
Brunos not very interesting as an intellectual, like most autistic people. Nobody follows Saul Kripke on Twitter hahaha.
I think you have an inferiority complex towards whites Melo. I’m sorry to hit you in your genitalia but it pretty obvious you have ‘issues’ with identity.
I have ‘issues’ with my identity, but not in the way you think I do.
My mixed heritage became a source of pride for me when I matured. What really irks me is that I identify most with southern rural whites, but the kind of mindsets they have is so frustrating because it holds them back.
Like being in an office job is kind of shitty sometimes. I love not being in the sun anymore, but I miss the people. I felt a weird comfort around their isms and phobias. Not because I agreed, but because it’s where I grew up and it reminds me of him. Sometimes I find people here with those kinds of attitudes and I love them. But also hearing them say stupid shit is so weird.
It’s very conflicting stuff.
People like Bruno were bullied where I grew up. The guys literally punched them in the back of the head.
If you don’t bully autistics they get arrogant and insufferable and think they know everything. They don’t know they seem stupid to 99% of people, especially women.
This is what I mean. I don’t think Bruno has ever said anything that comes across as arrogant and insufferable. Maybe he’s made fun of you, but your an asshole. So, you deserve it.
Bruno is without doubt the most arrogant commentator here, but its subtle. His autism kind of hides it a bit. Bruno thinks hes the shit. You don’t have the theory of mind to see it.
Multiple times hes bragged about his IQ score. Maybe even more times than everyone else combined.
No, I know what you’re referring to, and he is confident about his intelligence because he is intelligent.
You misinterpret it because you disagree with him politically. You are arrogant because you greatly exaggerate your mental abilities, particularly your “social intelligence.”
Bruno is a big guy, a smart guy, and probably good-looking. he is married, right? He deserves to feel proud of himself.
You don’t. You can’t even shower or hold down a job. I mean, for someone like you to say what you say about black people and then turn around and criticize someone for being arrogant or insufferable is absolutely crazy.
Anyway I go to these ‘high IQ’ events sometimes in London or Ireland or wherever. It would be interesting to poll everyone to see if they’ve figured out who runs the UK and US governments.
Its a real life composite intelligence test because it tests academic AND social intelligence.
Obviously you can’t blurt out you think jews run everything at these gatherings. Then some of the lower IQ people will scream ANTISEMITISM GOYIM! or CONSPIRACY THEORISSSST.
You would literally get kicked out because 30% of the people are high IQ gypsies and don’t want people noticing whats going on in the country.
I can tell within a few seconds if a person there is a high IQ gypsy. They have very stereotypical behaviours if you watch them moving around the room.
Puppy asked me to take a social intelligence battery. I aced it. Puppy then rigged the answers to pretend I failed it. Hahaha, dumbass. Who are you kidding?
“If a person sees a car driving at high speed, should he step onto the road”.
Puppys answer: Yes, because the driver will calculate the increased insurance premium and penalty fees immediately if he kills the person and stop the car if the person walks onto the road.
Thats right puppy. People think like that. Thats a good answer. 150 IQ Bruno and Ganzir agree, that is a good answer. Your 3 150 IQ co workers all agree, great answer.
It’s interesting that everyone you consider autistic did only average or way below on their first attempt at the Picture Arrangement test, yet Bruno and Ganzir did much better than you on the Common Sense test. My guess is the right side of your brain is socially intelligent so you have good intuition, but you lack the left-side logic to work out when your intuitions are wrong.
You have some major blind spots when it comes to common sense and these keep you unemployed, though melo and Anime are even worse. It would be interesting to see if RR has common sense.
You keep banging on about the common sense test you made up the answers too. I gave an example above. 99% of people would agree with me, not the autism brigade.
Once I show you where you went wrong, you’ll see you deserved to score mediocre.
I do not see what logic has to do with common sense?
If bruno and ganzir got high score then what is the implication?
It has no real life application.
The only thing it implies is that i can’t do academics.
Other than that i treat people in my real life with respect and simply I don’t bother people, i help people.
So maybe pp made the test as a way to see who can take advantage of others which is the same way pill views social intelligence.
The implication is that some people who pill considers autistic still show great common sense and wisdom. Warren Buffet would probably flunk Picture Arrangement, but because great common sense and wisdom combined with autistic investment savant, briefly became richest man on Earth.
so not social common sense?
My common sense is not THAT bad, but it is probably below average.
Me not believing in jewish conspiracies is not evidence of a lack of common sense. Quite the opposite.
All 3 of you don’t understand the difference between academic intelligence and ‘common sense’. I once read an autistic person who wrote an article that defined common sense as what the majority of people agree on lol. What a fucking retard.
Puppy, Bruno and Ganzir have zero common sense. Bruno openly admitted he stared at a guy in the eyes on the bus so long that he provoked an argument.
But the best example is my example above of when to cross the road.
Some people only cross at designated crossings. i.e autism people, disabled or old people
Common sense – you have a sense of how many cars and how busy the road is so you cross when its safe. If you see a car speeding down you can’t walk out because you can’t expect everyone will be rational and do a mental calculation of the cost of hitting you.
Puppys answers in his test are basically all the autism answers which is why puppy thinks I didn’t do well. In reality I aced the test. It was a perfect score. In autism standards it was terrible.
Bruno and Ganzir got great scores because they all picked the autism answers.
In picture arrangement all the autism people did bad. I did great cos its not down to puppys stupid judgement. The story is the story, its objective and easy to show the answer. Even puppy can’t reinterpret sequential events.
Case closed. Puppy write me a 300 word apology for rigging the result.
You should refrain from commenting until you see why you lost points.
I actually think your true common sense is lower than what the test showed.
You think a graduate from one of the best law schools in France was the dumbest person in the comment section just because he’s black.
You think the most successful & biggest brain woman in the World is a mentally retarded
You think 100% of Jews believe HBD.
You think humans had gorilla intelligence until civilization was invented, even though our brains had already tripled ape size 50,000 years earlier.
As Oprah would say “you ain’t got no common sense”
Melo why do you think your common sense is bad? Do you have any examples?
« Some people only cross at designated crossings. i.e autism people, disabled or old people »
i agree with « Philo » that how people cross the road is a very interesting trait. But I believe that yes it’s heavily influenced by nature but in a given environment whose context is the most important factor (like height in Rotterdam versus Jakarta despite how you rank in the local population dna as for height).
For example in Paris, no person would wait for the green light at a pedestrian crossing. if there is no vehicle (cars, buses and bikes being the 3 main kind) coming. I would say one big third, of whom I am, cross anywhere in the streets when it’s convenient for them.
That behavior is considered shocking in Spain and Spaniards stay aghast when they see all those French tourists crossing at a red light or crossing outside pedestrian crossing. I believe Spaniards are the most domesticated people for many traits like this one. That’s why male don’t fight often there. Only problems are with gypsies (I don’t know about tinkles !) and North Africans.
In Berlin, people don’t cross just because they fear the ticket (and police give a lot of it) not because they want to follow the rules. But they want others to follow the rules. Yes cars would tend to accelerate if they see someone crossing in the wrong moment or place. At first, I thought it was in my mind but then I realized it was a pattern and they are very vicious. I have seen that only in Germany and Brussels. Wanting to castigate people who don’t blindly follow dumb rules when they are strictly enforced.
the other day, in a small street in Paris, there was this charming young lady in a bike, and she thought I wouldn’t have time to cross, wich was clearly false. I had plenty of time. Thus she stopped abruptly and fell overboard her bike. I felt so sorry for her. As she didn’t have anything broken, I booked her a Uber and accompanied her along to her house door, because she was shaken by the fall.
I even, after some internal hesitation, let her my number in case she had a problem and wanted to sue me (I have a very good civil insurance). But instead she sent me a kind message after a week saying she was ok, and got over it, and even back on her bike …
wish you all good summer hollydays !
If RR walked into any local doctor, dentist, nurse, teacher, psychologist, scientist, even some random office worker and said his beliefs, the person would think he was dumb as shit. We all have to sit here an entertain this troll. Puppy has banned me 6 times at least for making fun of blacks. RR shits all over IQ testing, basic science, basic math, basically everything and everyone else has to put up with it. RR even says everyone is equally intelligent…like Mugabe…not even children believe that hahaha.
The only readers RR has for his blog are blacks. Period. Zero other audience. Jews laugh at this shit. They think hes a dumb goyim for falling for it.
You know this is hilarious. But anyone that scored highly on puppys ‘common sense’ test can literally be diagnosed with autism. And anyone who scored poorly has excellent common sense. So puppy succeeded in creating a test to find autism!!!! By complete accident. ahahahaha.
The only autists who did well on it are those who used their high verbal IQ to compensate for autism. Non-high IQ autists do terrible on it.
Literally every high scorer you mentioned has severe autism.
That’s because the only people who took the test were you, Loaded, Teffec & the people you diagnosed as autistic (Melo took a multiple choice variant). And btw Teffec had the highest score of all.
I did pumpkins comprehension test again.
I scored 7 but I would have scored 10 if I had not changed 3 answers from last time. I thought they were trick question from last time so I changed them.
7 is 113
10 is 152
pp: “The only autists who did well on it are those who used their high verbal IQ to compensate for autism.”
https://pumpkinperson.com/2017/04/25/autism-on-the-wechsler-intelligence-scales-the-wechsler-autism-index/
Wechsler Autism Index = (Information scaled score + Vocabulary scaled score + Similarities scaled score + 3*Block Design score)/( Picture Arrangement scaled score + Picture Completion scaled score + Digit Symbol score + 3*Comprehension score)
(14.986 + 11.4 + 12.4 + 3*16.2)/(16.8 + 14.2 + 10 + 3*12.6)
(General Knowledge + Crossword Puzzle + Pairs + 3*Jig-Saw)
divided by
(Picture Arrangement + Gestalt + Number Memory + 3*Comprehension)
1.11 = (87.39)/(78.8)
111 is the bottom quartile in common sense
LOADED and Philosopher are like extreme acids and bases that destroy the comment section when both are around. One can be tolerated by the others but together they create a havok that steadily erodes the basis of goodwill argumentation. LOADED might be slightly worse because of age, lack of medication and good punctuation which makes him look more unhinged.
The comment section has been bearable lately.
Anyway this is why we need to be very careful with the way we mix races/cultures.
Of course Mugabe leads to problems too, but he mostly only argues with PP
I found this article you made pp about estimating Mug’s IQ
I entered my numbers but I seem that (g) is much higher that FSIQ
I am still not sure what the difference is between FSIQ and (g)
I have always assumed (g) was correlated with the connection between the parietal lobe and the medial frontal lobe.
https://pumpkinperson.com/2021/04/16/estimating-a-readers-iq-part-4-current-psychometric-functioning/
It wasn’t about Mug of Pee’s IQ, I just mentioned him because he created the Gestalt test (I just normed it).
g is the hypothetical construct that causes all mental abilities, however diverse, to positively correlate & is measured by the first principal component if all the mental abilities were charted in n-dimensional space.
For example, if we plotted everyone’s verbal IQ on the x axis, their spatial IQ on the y axis, and their working memory IQ on the Z axis, then we’d need a plane of best fit in 3-D space & the higher you are on the plane, the higher you are in the g extracted from these 3 scores.
You would need to run all your wechsler scores through a complex stats program to find your level of g but full-scale IQ is an excellent proxy
Now if the test has more than 3, we reach the limit of human imagination but mathematically we can continue to plot in more & more dimensions.
“You would need to run all your wechsler scores through a complex stats program to find your level of g but full-scale IQ is an excellent proxy”
Is GAI the same as (g)?
I thought it was only verbal and spatial.
My general ability index in 2016 was 130 and Full Scale was 112
Do all Wechsler kits come with a complex stats program?
The therapist I saw in 2016 – giving the test requires qualifications correct? It always seems they hide stuff from me where they don’t say what is wrong with me?
Today I don’t know what the full picture is?
Most people in the program I am in are mentally disabled.
Rich people I suppose have real psychologists?
How do you think you are coming along with your statistics pp?
You created and posted so many tests.
The only one I think I did not take was the TAVIS
–
Verbal Comprehension
(Similarities) Pairs 107
(Vocabulary) Crossword Puzzle 120
(Information) General Knowledge 125
(Comprehension) Comprehension 113
Perceptual Reasoning
(Block Design) Jig-Saw 131
(?) Cubes 96
(?) Gestalt 121
(?) Picture Arrangement 134
Working Memory
Processing Speed
(Digit Span) Number Memory 100
PATMA 112
KAMIKAZE 118
There’s at least one more important test I want to release.
Also, your Comprehension & Picture Arrangement scores are inflated because you took them twice. Only your first attempts are valid because the norms are based on first attempts.
I lost that data, can you tell me the two lower scores?
You got 5 out of 12 on both tests
wow
That puts my WAI at one in ten thousand.
(1.55)
but only if we assume these tests and the math formula are accurate.
I would not think my theory of mind is that low with what it could be measuring, as I said: the ability to draw is based on central coherence.
1.55 is just a ratio; we don’t know what the mean and SD are so you can’t estimate the rarity.
More bad news for Pill’s social IQ. His UBI endorsement has backfired:
https://x.com/Noahpinion/status/1815406682094375227
generated the largest increase in time spent on leisure
Sounds successful to me.
Why did my Picture Arrangement score go up by 40 points the second try? Practice effect?
This is why it was taken out of the wais battery?
Most of the time I am very tired and incoherent to take tests at an optimum, I sleep allot when not at the computer.
That man I keep referring to said I was 118 in 2016 and I had more energy then, as pp said I was maybe 120 then?
So maybe when I was 13 and got 125 is different from 2021 when I was 33 and got 103 because I wasted all my energy on working to hard? Intense Mental stress is harder as you get older.
environmental struggles > mental ability
Why did my Picture Arrangement score go up by 40 points the second try? Practice effect?
Partly a practice effect but practice effects are seldom that large. Do you believe in the theory of multiple personalities. Some people think that when someone experiences years of horrific abuse like you did, they split into multiple personalities with some having higher IQs than others:
This is why it was taken out of the wais battery?
That is a very GOOD question and the answer is, yes, in part. Picture Arrangement tests tend to have low reliability.
There might not be a split that bad in me as the woman in the video. She can “see” people that she said were herself. I just feel this pain centered where I was hit I guess. It causes me to lack energy, to feel like I cannot do stuff, like extreme fatigue and disorientation. In 2016 it appeared as a burning sensation at the top of my head. It is a pain that won’t go away. When it is not around I might have disassociated from it for a day or half a day but it is not a separate personality.
In Hollywood conspiracies they say you can program a mind to split but that would be very hard to do to a person without labs over years. Those personalities are not whole as a person is whole. They don’t have memories in the way a person would as could be detected in a proper interrogation. But in the conspiracy the actors act a role and that programs them somehow?
I heard that three types of DID exist, but non would be coherent enough to be a spy in a spy movie.
Pain is what causes it to happen though, you forget it by “splitting”. Every time I see the social worker they ask if I hear voices. I don’t and the social workers are only ever around for 2 years at most so this is new that they ask me these questions when I’ve been in the program 14 years. I told them I had bad anxiety, they did not think it is OCD or ADD until I had to be hospitalized and took Strattera. Then the pain was gone for a while.
Most of the time I try and keep rational about what I do. I do not like to feel sad. I do not cry.
This “not crying” could make the pain worse.
But I do not ever feel safe to do it.
So I sleep more than I should.
And I try not to misbehave.
church made things worse
and my mom is unresponsive emotionally
I had a feeling Biden was about to drop out. The calls were increasing, and I’m pretty sure the COVID diagnosis was fake. I think it was just an excuse to see how Kamala did by herself while campaigning.
Must’ve been good, because it seems everyone is backing her.
She may also just be the sacrificial lamb until someone more interesting can come along in 2028. Although, it’s highly probable we won’t have an election 2028.
Hopefully I’m wrong.
Lol. Philo’s brain probably explodes every time I post shit like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IrDrBs13oA
It’s honestly gotta suck having to do so many mental gymnastics just to keep your sanity.
Interesting interview withe Destiny and Piers Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt_CipOPPs0
There does need to be a discussion on these kinds of issues and I don’t think it’s necessarily right to look at the other side as if they’re the enemy. But, the problem is, as Destiny highlights, these people do not argue in good faith, and most people, even if they’re arguing in good faith, do not change their mind when they receive new information.
When I was 15 I thought you could be friends with republicans. Even now, most of my friends are republicans. It’s too late for me to throw those relationships away, but I don’t fuck with any new people who are MAGA. They live in a different reality and can’t accept basic facts.
I’m tired of progressives and liberals always being expected to take the high road, and it never being returned. The left does not have the propaganda apparatus that the right does. Even CNN is just controlled opposition nowadays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjpQtjigKPk
None of you morons can explain this away. You are so behind on what’s actually happening.
I don’t even think anyone here cares about whether Biden or Trump is in office. It’s the same assholes running the country with the same agenda either way, with very little difference, because those assholes factor every reasonable possibility in. That’s why they do their wargames, and why people like Bill Gates was thinking about a global pandemic before it happened. Whether they cause it or not, they’ve priced it in.
The fact that what is shown to us is theater is something you don’t seem to understand that MAGA people do, even though they think Trump will somehow help.
Elections don’t matter anymore except for giving other people hope by showing your face at the ballot box. The population of the US is so watered down that even if they did, they would still wouldn’t help.
America is just a colony & the president is just the house slave.
You, Pumpkin, and Mugs are not only factually incorrect, you’re intellectually lazy.
Sure, saying cringe shit like “America is just a colony & the president is just the house slave.” sounds good on a bumper sticker, but it’s a gross mischaracterization of how the American political structure is actually operated.
Politics is not theater. Certainly, a plurality of politicians are snake oil salesmen, but a lot aren’t, and to suggest that Democrats and Republicans are anywhere near the same is beyond retarded.
Political apathy is precisely why nothing changes. And the belief in conspiracies is a sign of low IQ. It’s easy to think that kind of stuff. It doesn’t require research and education to reach those conclusions.
Instead of actually taking the time to understand the geopolitical landscape of modern America, you just resign yourself to “Jewsdidit” idiocy and then pretend that you’re socially intelligent because of it. Philo literally bases his entire belief system on one shitty book he read. I doubt your ideas are any more well-founded.
Instead of actually taking the time to understand the geopolitical landscape of modern America, you just resign yourself to “Jewsdidit” idiocy
As opposed to the “whitesdidit” idiocy or “the rich did it” idiocy or the “military industrial complex did it” idiocy or the “liberal Satanic cabal did it” idiocy?
The Glowworm! – God bless the colonies!
James and The Giant Peach.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4b6e6ffd-58d7-447f-bdd2-9830595899e2
a literally retarded person commenting and peepee approves it.
sad.
“As opposed to the “whitesdidit” idiocy or “the rich did it” idiocy or the “military industrial complex did it” idiocy or the “liberal Satanic cabal did it” idiocy?”
Look, all of those “didits” are fucking stupid when used to explain away every geopolitical event that has happened. Obviously some events are driven by ethnocentrism just like some events are driven by pure monetary gain, but to try and attribute everything under the sun from the Iraq War to immigration on Israel is just dumb.
Philo is literally so anti-Semitic that he goes full circle and starts to claim that Jews don’t care about money.
Sure you have the ability to change the world but the idea that you would effect much change by being MAGA vs. not MAGA or republican vs. not republican seems like a glaring hole in the plans of those who want keep power. If I was some globalist with my pockets in various multinational organizations and with the ability to influence world leaders using blackmail and favors, and everything hinged on whether enough Americans were MAGA or not MAGA, you would think I’d have some plan (or 100 plans) to make such a distinction very inconsequential to me.
James and the Giant Peach was one of my favorites as a kid. I don’t remember if it was because it was so interesting or because I was disturbed and in awe of it…. but it definitely left a strong impression on me.
No one cares.
ideed. you should stop commenting.
Two people got a raw score on The KAMIKAZE of 4 (IQ 125 and 111) so I just put myself in the middle average (236/2 = IQ 118)
When it comes to Maths, I think this is what defines intelligence if we define intelligence in quant terms. That is to say we take a problem and that problem has parts to it and we need to arrange those parts to find the solution. So the more parts to the math problem the more quant is necessary to solve it.
Intelligence is not just about “learning” because “learning” is rote memorization. And rote memorization is a copy paste strategy of things that are already solved and placed in front of you. New problems require making something new or at least the ability to deal with “a number of parts” that have never been combined in the way they need to be combined to ge a desired result.
And so the more quant an person has then this can be transferred to any problem not just math because all large problems necessarily have a large number of parts to them. A person who can deal with more parts at a time will get things working faster.
quant = getting things to work faster, dealing with multiple parts at once.
analysis is breaking things apart
synthesis is putting things together
The correct way of doing this will make things work as they are supposed to work.
That is quantitative intelligence
This was actually an interesting debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYrdMjVXyNg
I’ve seen Ben Shapiro have some of the dumbest takes, but he actually did good in this debate. And it made me actually want to take a second look at the Israel fiasco. I need to find some good books on the matter.
no one cares.
“It’s the same assholes running the country with the same agenda either way, with very little difference, because those assholes factor every reasonable possibility in.”
After taking pumpkins test by kiwi-anon I now believe pill was right about that computer in Arizona (Utah)
Kamikaze Watermelon (Demented Cartoon Movie)