[Please place all off-topic comments in the most recent open thread. They will not be published here]
Thanks to Louis Lello and his colleagues, we now can predict a person’s height just from his DNA and these height predictors correlate about 0.64 with actual within sex height.
Of course this correlation is based on a UK sample and as Mug of Pee has long argued, when the environment is that narrow, you can’t be sure the genome is actually causing the height, or if some genomes just grow tall in particular countries for local reasons, but would not have a height advantage elsewhere (see reaction norms vs independent genetic effects)
Thus I was heartened to learn that this genomic predictor was tested in environments as diverse as South Asia, China and Africa. One of the studies authors Steve Hsu writes:
Note, despite the reduction in power our predictor still captures more height variance than any other existing model for S. Asians, Chinese, Africans, etc.
So the predictive power falls below 0.64 as we move far from the country the predictor was created in, but “still captures more height variance than any other existing model”.
So how well does any other existing model do? In their paper they write:
Recent studies using data from the interim release of the UKBB reported prediction correlations of about 0.5 for human height using roughly 100K individuals in the training
So this one genomic predictor correlates at least 0.5+ with within-sex height all over the world, suggesting a truly causal relationship. Squaring the correlation tells us that within sex height heritability (in the most meaningful causal sense of the term) is at least 0.25.
But why only 0.25, when twin studies suggest heritabilities of roughly triple that?
One possibility is all the flaws in twin studies, but another possibility is that common additive genetic variants only account for a small fraction of the heritability of height and other complex polygenetic traits like IQ. To find rare genetic variants you must look at the entire genome, but considering how expensive that is and how rare the rare variants are, few are willing to spend the money. In addition, there may be non-additive gene on gene interactions and if these are sufficiently complex, they may never be found.
How much more heritability is left to be found?
Perhaps a study of cattle might provide a clue:
Common sequence variants captured 83%, 77%, 76% and 84% of the total genetic variance for fat, milk, and protein yields and fertility, respectively
If human height is anything like these cattle phenotypes, then maybe we’ve found 80%, suggesting genomic predictors could go from explaining 25% of the within sex height variance to 31%, implying a predictive correlation of 0.56.
And if genomic predictions can achieve that much precision for within sex height, they can likely do the same for IQ once they genotype a sufficiently large sample (one million people) taking a sufficiently valid test (the WAIS).
I agree pumpkin that genes will show intelligence differences but within a variance of neglect showing people with good gene not reaching potential throwing off study results. A healthy child will have genes the eat certain energy faster or have proteins the prune synapses in good shapes. There will be a cause. I bet pumpkin that you have the look of a celebrity or a politician because of your 135 IQ. The top IQ class looks different from people I have met. Genes must reflect this difference. High IQ class uses energy different so look different, they make the science and comedy and tv in general shows. It’s energy.
Also, what does it mean I scored 50 on the tomm test?
… What are you talking about.
pumpkin blocked my full scores
Because they were off-topic
Sorry, but other posts were way more off topic than mine was. My post was a genuine question on a psychometric test and other posts were gag posts. So gag posts are OK But posts asking about psychometrics are not. I do not understand?
Conversations natural evolve in off-topic directions. What i most object to is spontaneous off-topic comments
What is a ‘gag post’?
gag (ɡæɡ)
n
1. a joke or humorous story, esp one told by a professional comedian
2. a hoax, practical joke, etc: he did it for a gag.
vb, gags, gagging or gagged
3. (intr) to tell jokes or funny stories, as comedians in nightclubs, etc
4. (Theatre) (often foll by up) theatre
a. to interpolate lines or business not in the actor’s stage part, usually comic and improvised
b. to perform a stage jest, either spoken or based on movement
I dont see anything funny about the posts here.
That is because you have a different sense of humor from other people whereas other commentators see posts as funny you don’t. You do not define what is funny, you simply have your own preferences.
For Philosophers poor comprehension: Mugabe and swank are allowed to make gaga post but Animekitty is not allowed to make posts on his psychometric tests results because they are spontaneous off-topic comments.
(Was Simon Baron-Cohen questioned by Pumpkin Person fan?)
Cat, i have moderated FAR more comments from Mug of Pee & Swank than I’ve ever moderated from you.
Let’s say i write an article about dogs & Mug of Pee says “my dog is gold”, that would be on-topic, because the article is about dogs.
Then if Swank posts a dumb picture of gold in response to Mug of Pee saying his dog is gold, i might allow that because it’s a natural progression of the conversation
But if Swank posts a picture of gold BEFORE mug of pee connected gold to the topic, it’s not allowed. Even if it’s the most beautiful picture of gold ever taken, it’s not allowed unless it flows organically from the topic.
I understand that pumpkin, now you seem to think I lack comprehension on what the flow is on topics being natural progressive.
Philosopher thinks I think I refer your article (Genomic predictors & the heritability of height) as a gag post. Which is not the case. I refer to Mugabe’s posts and swanks posts as gaga posts, not your articles so philosopher is mistaken.
My post was blocked because it was off topic but it was not a gag post and I was referencing the gaga posts that were not blocked not Your article pumpkin. How does philosopher think I refer to your article pumpkin as a gaga post when I say commenters were the gag posts, not your articles pumpkin.
I was not saying your articles pumpkin was a gaga post. I was saying gag posts were allowed but my posts were blocked and I fully understand the reasoning behind this. But I was Fucking not referring to your articles as a gaga post.
I was fucking not referring to pumpkins articles as gaga posts period. I don’t give a fuck that my post was off topic and the other gaga posts were allowed because they followed the flow of the comment ruled. Philosopher is wrong that I meant pumpkins article was a gag post. My test results we blocked not because of pumpkins articles because other reason and swanks posts and Mugabe’s posts are gaga posts I saw next to my post on my test results. I fucking did not say pumpkins article was a gag post.
I fucking did not say pumpkins article was a gag post. Philosopher is wrong.
I said my post was blocked but gag posts were not blocked.
This implies (by philosopher) I believe pumpkin should block his own article if I believe his article is a gag post.
That is fucking stupid.
Only comments can be blocked not entire articles by pumpkin
so what is the deal?
Gag post that can be blocked must comment, not articles.
Does philosopher see me as stupid enough to think my post comment can be blocked the same as pumpkins article?
My comments were blocked but other comments were not blocked.
I asked why.
Pumpkin explained.
This had nothing to do with blocking pumpkins article.
Gag comments were the topic as to my comment being blocked not pumpkins article.
An article is not a comment so pumpkins article cannot be a gag comment to be blocked.
The logic is simple comparison between my comment and another comment not:
A comparison between my comment and pumpkins article.
I made a comment I did not know why it was blocked. I never fucking said pumpkins article was a gag comment. I was comparing my comment to other comments, not pumpkins articles. That all I was doing
Gee whiz, what’s happening to this guy🙄
pumpkin’s bluffing
if the gold pic was good enough, he’d let it in.
dig it mr. meowkamph
Haha, Kitty is rebelling.
“But why only 0.25, when twin studies suggest heritabilities of roughly triple that?”
Because the EEA is false. As I said, molecular genetic tools cannot capture all of the twin heritability because it does not exist.
“And if genomic predictions can achieve that much precision for within sex height, they can likely do the same for IQ once they genotype a sufficiently large sample (one million people) taking a sufficiently valid test (the WAIS).
The “Hsu Boundary” (one million people GWAS) was hit last month for education. Low variance exposed again. It’s over.
GWAS is not the same as genomic predictors and education is not the same as IQ. I don’t expect genetic research to ever validate twin studies, but I do expect genomic predictors to correlate at least 0.5 with IQ, and for the correlation to be causal, as evidenced by the fact that the same predictor will correlate 0.5+ everywhere.
obviously educational attainment and IQ aren’t the same, but why should one be SO much more heritable than the other? wonder if bouchard et al calculated h^2 for educational attainment…which i suppose is simply years of schooling or highest degree attained…which is stupid…a bachelors in engineering is “smarter” than a masters in fine art.
Education’s probably a lot more influenced by social class than IQ is, which would lower the heritability
i agree with rr and made the exact same comment under that article by dalton conley in nautilus.
the GWASes have actually shown the exact opposite of “the writing on the wall”…a phrase from the book of daniel btw.
the hereditist position on human behavioral traits…so far as there are such things…has been poisoned with polonium 210.
but they will continue to claim that the full genome and millions of subjects will vindicate them.
it won’t.
I think it’s clear Jensen was wrong about IQ’s heritability being high but his critics were wrong if they implied it was near zero.
The real test is how much of America’s 15 IQ point BW gap is genetic because that’s the root of the controversy & why everyone cares so much. If it’s more than a third, i think Jensen’s vindicated, since his critics implied it was virtually 100% environmental
I think it’s clear Jensen was wrong about IQ’s heritability being high
https://media1.tenor.com/images/6eaab0d39bd1afa7be8985eb7ac2d28b/tenor.gif?itemid=4628820
Mugabe, agreed.
PP, IQ scores aren’t ‘genetic’.
Swank, exactly. It’s based off the flawed CTM. The EEA is false.
PP, IQ scores aren’t ‘genetic’.
Not as genetic as most HBDers think but the genome likely has a moderate effect on IQ
Even Mug of Pee concedes that
the bw difference is NOT the reason anyone cares except oprah.
the subtitle of the bell curve was “intelligence and class structure”.
the bw difference is NOT the reason anyone cares except oprah.
the subtitle of the bell curve was “intelligence and class structure”.
No it is why people cared. You yourself have complained many times that classism is accepted, racism is not. Murrray has complained that despite race being such a small and mildly worded part of his book, all anyone could talk about was how racist the book was.
saying ‘the genome has a moderate effect on IQ’
what does that even mean?
are you saying that there are a lot of genes with independent additive effect on IQ? I highly doubt there is a significant amount of those.
we have seen culture change produce changes in group IQ.
the UK blacks
the Caribbean blacks
and again, IRELAND
in 1972 IQ ~87 IQ
fast forward several decades of urbanization and economic growth
2009 PISA ~ 100 IQ
ah but the irish must’ve had those superior white man genes. we all know the man was keeping the irish man down — the white man. thank god the white man had the white man genes to overcome the white man.
pretty sure that as soon as the IQ in Africa starts to rise, we will see more and more SSA’s labeled as caucasoid or white-ish, I’m sure.
saying ‘the genome has a moderate effect on IQ’
what does that even mean?
Generally moderate effects are defined as causal correlations that are closer to 0.5 than they are to perfect or zero. So if they find blood at a crime scene, they should be able to predict the criminal’s IQ from knowing only the DNA (and the country and year it was found in which gives a proxy for environment), and said predictions should correlate anywhere from 0.3 to 0.7 with tested IQ on highly g loaded test.
are you saying that there are a lot of genes with independent additive effect on IQ? I highly doubt there is a significant amount of those.
There’s supposedly about 10,000 SNPs that affect IQ and there are likely also many rare variants and non-additive genetic effects too. Of course not all of these will have an independent effect but if IQ is anything like height, I expect most will.
we have seen culture change produce changes in group IQ.
In cases where the test is culturally biased against a group, that’s certainly possible. For example if a group doesn’t speak the language or is poorly educated, then tests of general knowledge and vocabulary may be biased against them, and they may lack the motivation to do even culture reduced tests or not understand the instructions. It’s the job of the psychologist to tell the difference between a valid low IQ and invalid one, but I concede that’s more art than science, and many tests are given to large groups so no psychologist can observe individual performance.
you understand that a statement like ‘the genome has a moderate effect on IQ’ is meaningless. the genome exerts the full effect on every phenotype because without the genome there is no phenotype to speak of.
and then, it doesn’t strike you as odd that there is a belief in the absence of any real evidence that these genes will be the predictors — seeing as how every population experiences a high amount of gene-environment correlation.
so even if SNP’s that pass the replication-not-as-a-result-of-stat-anomaly test, how will anyone know if it’s the additive effect of the SNP or if it’s just an SNP that is correlated with a certain environment that produces an outcome?
In cases where the test is culturally biased against a group, that’s certainly possible.
seeing as vocab is the most g-loaded test…
and most every population studied has large disparities in access to education/resources…
and we have seen several IQ gaps close when that inequity is reduced…
why
oh why
is ‘muh genes’ the white man’s answer to ‘muh dick?’
can’t we all just get along?
you understand that a statement like ‘the genome has a moderate effect on IQ’ is meaningless. the genome exerts the full effect on every phenotype because without the genome there is no phenotype to speak of.
You know what I mean: individual differences in genomes cause individual differences in IQ
and then, it doesn’t strike you as odd that there is a belief in the absence of any real evidence
The evidence is GCTA studies and twin studies before them (some of which have supposedly been at least partly corrected for major flaws)
so even if SNP’s that pass the replication-not-as-a-result-of-stat-anomaly test, how will anyone know if it’s the additive effect of the SNP or if it’s just an SNP that is correlated with a certain environment that produces an outcome?
As Mug of Pee has long argued, that’s why it’s so important to replicate in diverse environments so hopefully you wont just keep getting the same environment interaction over and over. That’s why Hsu’s team tested their height predictor in South Asia, Africa and China.
seeing as vocab is the most g-loaded test…
and most every population studied has large disparities in access to education/resources…
and we have seen several IQ gaps close when that inequity is reduced…
It’s quite possible that all of the race/ethnic IQ gaps are at least partly caused by culture bias.
it means that if 100 clone pairs were carried by random gestational surrogates and assigned to random parents in the developed world the h^2 would be significantly different from 0 but maybe only .2.
gedankenexperiment:
rank different genomes in the same environment (not possible). then the same genomes in another environment. and another. and another. if the rank order is maintained then in this sense the trait is 100% genetic.
is ‘muh genes’ the white man’s answer to ‘muh dick?’
am i right in saying “behavior genetics” is mostly and anglo-american thing? have any high IQ societies been founded outside britain and english speaking north america?
is ‘muh genes’ the white man’s answer to ‘muh dick?’
Lol. That’s a losing game. Cuz muh dick spreads muh geenz.
‘HBD hits the town, muh geenz!’
These genetics articles are super boring.
[redacted by pp, April 21, 2019] on display from professor shoe again.
Only a small number of people, even now, understand that the hand writing is on the wall. In 2013 almost everyone who was not an expert in the field was taking a wait and see attitude. In 2018 (with EA3 about to appear in Nature Genetics) it is much easier to get that something is happening…
what is EA3?
the GWASes have shown very clearly that IQ is NOT like height.
the GWASes have shown very clearly that IQ is NOT like height.
Explain
apparently peepee didn’t read her own citation.
professor shoe’s people could explain only 9% of educational attainment.
even the twin studies find that IQ is significantly less heritable than height.
and all other personality traits are much less heritable than IQ.
even the twin studies find that IQ is significantly less heritable than height.
i think that’s because sex differences in height get counted as part of height’s heritability, since MZ twins reared apart are the same sex. Within sex height is probably no more heritable than IQ in twin studies
professor shoe’s people could explain only 9% of educational attainment.
Yes but education is only moderately correlated with IQ (0.57) and apparently a million people are needed to genetically predict IQ because of its great sparsity (the relevant SNPs are more spread out along the genome) i believe
When people realize that educational attainment is not caused by genes after trying the thousandth numerological procedure they can think of, no one will try to look for signs of “IQ” in the genome. Especially if it requires foolish sample sizes over one million.
People want degrees and skills, not scores on IQ tests.
apparently peepee didn’t read her own citation.
professor shoe’s people could explain only 9% of educational attainment.
I thought you were used to PP’s pathological selective quoting.
So this one genomic predictor correlates at least 0.5+…
how the fuck does that follow from the quote?
you should give the quote which says, “it explained this much in s asians, this much in chinese, or this much in a combination of s asians and chinese.”
as your article stands it sucks.
The quote you want doesn’t exist so i had to read between the lines. He says predictive power reduced in distant lands, but still better than any existing model. In the paper they say existing models predict height at 0.5, ergo their new predictor does at least that well in Africa, South Asia, China etc
so the within gender h^2 is .31.
whoopdeefuckingdoo!
anyone who denies a causal relationship between genes and height is a “crank”.
but anyone who thinks “IQ is like height” is an autist.
But within sex height is as heritable as IQ in twin studies. Is there some reason why twin studies would overestimate IQ’s heritability relative to height’s? Perhaps IQ is more sensetive to reaction norms but that’s speculation at this point
“but anyone who thinks “IQ is like height” is an autist.”
This. IQ clearly isn’t like height. They only say that because of how it supposedly mirrors height, with malnutrition causing stunting, and ‘genetic potential’ reaching the max near adulthood. But the paper I showed from Mae Wan Ho yesterday shows that maternal environment can account for that, heritability, MZ similarities and the supposed increase of heritability with age.
This. IQ clearly isn’t like height. They only say that because of how it supposedly mirrors height, with malnutrition causing stunting, and ‘genetic potential’ reaching the max near adulthood
Who’s they?
It also resembles height in that it increased over the 20th century (Flynn effect) and is thought to be very hard to improve (without teaching to the test) unlike muscle which seems much more malleable
see, this is a bait and switch.
IQ is NOT thought to be hard to improve — because you can indeed train each and every skill on an IQ test and have it result in a higher IQ score.
what’s thought to be hard to improve is the mystical ‘g,’ which is defined as NOT THE TEST but SOMETHING ELSE, what? we don’t know. we think it explains the positive manifold, when the positive manifold can simply be explained by the fact that to learn vocabulary/learn is to develop several different interdependent skills and that the ability to assign symbols to objects in reality and to mentally manipulate the symbols (a) cannot be directly measured and (b) the only indirect measurements we have are themselves very much improvable.
and while IQ is thought to have increased, HBD fanatics love to say that ‘g’ DID NOT increase much if at all. so either way, what HBDers are talking about is NOT like height.
IQ is NOT thought to be hard to improve — because you can indeed train each and every skill on an IQ test and have it result in a higher IQ score.
Yes, but the whole point of an IQ test is to measure how well you do on cognitive tasks you haven’t been explicitly trained in, or tasks that everyone’s been so overtrained in that training has little effect unless taken to such extremes, few people ever do it. Training for a test changes the nature of what it’s measuring and it will lose its ability to predict how well you learn and adapt to novel problems at school and work.
So yes, you can improve your score on the type of test you’ve already taken, but it’s not clear if that will translate to a totally different IQ test with different kinds of items.
Yes, but the whole point of an IQ test is to measure how well you do on cognitive tasks you haven’t been explicitly trained in, or tasks that everyone’s been so overtrained in that training has little effect unless taken to such extremes, few people ever do it.
which is impossible because, as you yourself has said, life is an IQ test.
some people will practice the tasks in their normal lives, some people won’t. and what you said about training really doesn’t seem to be true for vocab, highest g-loaded test.
Training for a test changes the nature of what it’s measuring and it will lose its ability to predict how well you learn and adapt to novel problems at school and work.
only if you assume it’s measuring something else, which indeed is the case. and how will this ability to learn and adapt be differentiated from the fear of failure? some people succeed — the majority — because they are not afraid to fail and learn from their mistakes. most people do not succeed because they are deathly afraid of the shame and humiliation that comes from failure.
So yes, you can improve your score on the type of test you’ve already taken, but it’s not clear if that will translate to a totally different IQ test with different kinds of items.
drilling people on the core skills seems to work
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1041608016300231
what population is referred to in the quote:
Recent studies using data from the interim release of the UKBB reported prediction correlations of about 0.5 for human height using roughly 100K individuals in the training
the “training” was on UK data. the 0.5 is for what population?
my IQ is too high to understand.
I think they train the computer to predict height on part of the UKBB sample, & then see how well it predicts height in the part of the sample not used in training
obviously. but what is that part? you claimed it included people in india and chiner.
where does shoe actually say, “we applied the same formula to genomes of chinee and injuns and it correlated .5.”
He doesn’t say that. He says the predictive power was reduced but still better than existing models. Since previous genomic predictors have achieved 0.5 correlations, I can only assume it was higher than 0.5.
Pumpkin I was thinking we could maybe do a series of literature reviews on the genetics of IQ and height. That would really drive record amounts of traffic to other websites which could make you popular with other bloggers.
I don’t know why Anime called your genetics posts ‘gag posts’. These articles are the opposite of funny – depressing.
Philosopher: I don’t know why Anime called your genetics posts ‘gag posts’.
no not pumpkins post but other commenters make posts that are gag posts but my post about my test results are ignored but Mugabe and swank can post picture having nothing to do with brain development and are gaga posts but my posts about psychometrics of tests I took is blocked.
You are way off philosopher. Mugabe and swank posting off-topic picture to make fun of Punkin are allowed but my test results are blocked. You need better reading comprehension. I said nothing about pumpkin I said commenters making gag posts, not pumpkin. don’t you get it or are you off your meds. My tests results were blocked and Mugabe’s and swanks gaga posts were allowed. please get back on your meds.
Kitty, we’ve seen your test scores a billion times. Chill out…
No you haven’t. The new ones posted pumpkin blocked.
But see them now in the off topic thread pumpkin just created.
Kitty, I don’t care about your test scores. No one does and you shouldn’t care either.
I mean, what are you gonna with all these tests, what kind of extraordinary job requires them? None.
So move on to something more interesting.
I am bored and need something to keep my mind active.
This is one of many mental activities building up my models of reality.
Why do you bother with this blog anyway yourself afro?
I come here for the subject matter, don’t you?
I am bored and need something to keep my mind active.
This is one of many mental activities building up my models of reality.
Lol! Does it even mean something?
Why do you bother with this blog anyway yourself afro?
I come here for the subject matter, don’t you?
I comment here for the debates which I think are the actual purpose of this blog unlike the therapeutic advice you seem to look for.
I do research. That includes stuff about me. so it does mean something. I learn stuff.
Yours a lawyer afro so debating people is just for the sake debating which seems pointless to me. Lawyers do not care if they win debates because they have valid points or seek truth but just to win and nothing else.
you and philosopher love to whine about playing to win versus ‘seeking’ truth….
the impulse to win is healthy and MANLY and the impulse to SPECIAL PLEADING is WOMANLY. stop being such girly men.
swank I care about my test scores and there is nothing wrong with that. They tell me something important. If I shouldn’t care your and afro are telling me I say the same to you. You and afro stop being a hypocrite. Let me figure out what my scores mean. Stop deeming what is not important to you but is important to others.
*Stop demeaning what is not important to you but is important to others.
Also, dishonest winning is everything being a lawyer stands for.
That is why they get rapist free even if they know they are guilty.
Winning for a lawyer means getting their rapist clint set free.
You’re telling me that’s manly?
dishonesty is manly according to swank
cheating is manly according to swank
as long as you win you can do anything.
win at any cost.
it’s manly, sure.
betray people, sure, its manly to swank.
lawyers are dishonest debaters.
you cannot trust them to accept the evidence.
they will debate pointless examples of why the evidence does now work knowing its pointless examples they are giving.
Their whole tactic is technicalities, not solid refutations.
The evidence is conclusive but someone misspelled a word and so they take that as evidence of the whole argument collapsing. Pure dishonesty.
Technicalities are why lawyers are dishonest debaters.
They know the evidence is conclusive they just use technicalities to be dishonest.
some us the term “mangine” to refer to man who wins so that he can win a woman.
women are sexual narcissists. the most attractive thing to some women is a man who is indifferent.
bogart spoke with a lisp and was ugly. from Scirocco: how can a man so ugly be so handsome?
aaron eckhart on why girls like surfers: because they’re so tired all the time from surfing they’re indifferent.
as shaw observed in Man and Superman women are the aggressors.
the fuckin leads are weak? You’re weak.
TFW when “Animekitty” tells you what’s manly.

what i mean by “manly” is a trait i wish women had too.
a woman like julia in 1984 or a woman like julia (flyte) in Brideshead.
for more watch The Tao of Steve.
Pumpkin what is the heritability of autism?
anyone who knows anything would see The Bell Curve as an important piece of noble blood propaganda. liberals focus on the bw gap to tacitly accept that within groups, you getting effed in the A is legit. democrats are pieces of shit. thank god, charles murray didn’t understand what he purported to write a book about, though:
“When I – when we – say 60 percent heritability, it’s not 60 percent of the variation. It is 60 percent of the IQ in any given person.”
the reality is not in one figure like h^2, but an at least two dimensional surface P(G, E).
h^2 is a real thing only to the extent this surface can be approximated by a plane.
not a single HBDer understands this.
sometimes people like bouchard claim they have tested for GxE and found none. how do they do that?
They probably look for cases where the twin in the bad home has a higher IQ than the twin in the good home. That might imply interaction.
Bouchard et al don’t know that they rested for GxE. It’s not like an MAOA study.
““When I – when we – say 60 percent heritability, it’s not 60 percent of the variation. It is 60 percent of the IQ in any given person.””
Understandable for a layperson, but someone like Murray who wrote *the* book about this stuff making that mistake? Hilarious. I think Ned Block called him out for that.
if there were so many parallel universes one way to define genetic true score would be…
in the P(G,E) surface what is the maximum height?
it likely is that there is a mt eve-rest and a mount godwin-austin and a britton hill.
some chinaman commented here before and said how he was so unimpressed with me. he said, “what does it matter if no one knows what environment will raise the scores of the low scoring?”
this is an interesting point.
so one can see the dialectic is moving again.
there is an aufhebung for my and rr’s position and REALITY.
but the hereditist position as been “overcome”. they’re picture of the world is not even approximate. it’s “misguided”.
What is to be Done?
…as been overcome…
that was a typo not a stupo. i’m not a cockney.
…they’re picture…
that may have been a stupo. or not.
what happens is i start a sentence and then change it.
so my solecisms made sense in the sentence i started.
In your debates, it looks like the genes thesis as always the burden of the proof and environmentalist can say it’s flawed or it’s not enough. But the proof should be objective and they should demonstrate case where environnement was the cause and genes could be discarded .
Besides, if someone said this chihuaha is not a German pastor jusr because in his environnement there is many chihuahuas or whatever, the beholder of this proposition should have the burden to show chihuhua getting German pastors.
Then the contentious question underlying this debate is can will help narrow the gap ? It is not the same as genes versus the rest. If the cause is the placenta or the intelligence of the mother talking to his baby or the quality of conversations at home, there is not much to do. If it’s a bunch of genes, maybe they can be fixed some day. So the indignation should be more about the facts – does races stand at 105, 100 and 80 – than causes.
There is a special environmentalist belief – to which most people adhere – wich is that schooling is what makes peop’e More or less intelligent. It’s what help people say throw more money into this category. This is a very strong stance among environmentalist. They should get the burden of the proof. Because the policies they advocate cost a lot and create resentment. This is the most important theory that should be tested .
But the proof should be objective and they should demonstrate case where environnement was the cause and genes could be discarded .
besides the adoption studies showing just that, hmmmm
-the Flynn effect
-rising IQs of several ethnic groups over the last century apart from FE that cannot be explained by ‘genetics.’
Flynn effect can be just going back to where we were before agricultural revolution. If a group of ethnic women would stop punching their belly while pregnant and taking drugs, IQ would grow, and by this standard, you would allege IQ variation is environmental.
As for the twins, PP gave you an answer in the video . More than 3 sd social variation would be needed to get the average difference among two people taken on chance (or the difference between two populations average IQ like high school and college students)
That’s not much proof.
I provided evidence the other day about maternal environment and heritability. That’s pretty good. Change maternal environment, change outcomes. Thus is why MZ twins are similar, aargw reason anyway, and it’s due to their similar environment in the womb.
you failed to address the changing IQ scores of several sub-populations….
start with Ireland — from 87 IQ to 100 IQ in 30 years.
but hey, let’s go back to what YOU said:
But the proof should be objective and they should demonstrate case where environnement was the cause and genes could be discarded .
again, the flynn effect. you don’t have an answer for it. what you just gave wasn’t an answer, it was a just-so story pulled out of your own ass.
I doubt Ireland’s IQ improved 13 points relative to british norms in 30 years. Probably just underestimated the first time & overestimated the second time & used different tests each time. It’s a mistake to over interpret random fluctuations in such noisy data based on convenience samples of unknown representativeness
it’s not a random fluctuation, there are several data points over the last 50 years that show a clear upward trend
so the first time was an underestimation even though the sample size was in the thousands? and the upward trend is present in the studies with large sample sizes most likely to be nationally representative.
according to hbdchick, john raven even said the data was nationally representative.
Okay, sounds credible, but group administered tests are crap since there’s no way to tell if people are trying or understanding instructions.
But yes i realize, most HBD research is based on group tests
so then most HBD research is crap.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/557f895de972e952912d9f2276f3a512/tenor.gif?itemid=9318653
and peepee can stop her ears and mumble, but the RoI is a rich country today. its living standards are as high as blighty’s or higher. is this entirely due to its being a tax haven?
In your debates, it looks like the genes thesis as always the burden of the proof and environmentalist can say it’s flawed or it’s not enough. But the proof should be objective and they should demonstrate case where environnement was the cause and genes could be discarded .
The burden of proof is on anyone who pretends that IQ test scores are more than scores on a test.
Then the saying says: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
Can you can clarify again (and maybe swank too):
What is your position on chronometric tests? How about attempts to correlate brain structure with IQ?
I don’t think much of chronometric tests. They have the merit of being objective measurements. But I think they mostly measure attention instead of complex reasoning skills.
As for attempting to correlate IQ with brain properties, I’m not too qualified to have a strong opinion but I know the correlations are never that great and don’t tell how stuff work. So I’m just “meh” on the topic.
As a whole, I think it’s mistaken to think of “intelligence” as a property of the person. We can objectively judge a decision as dumb/smart successful/unsuccessful and a more “intelligent person” would likely make successful decisions for often than a “less intelligent” one. But IQ tests don’t measure that.
From what I’ve seen recently about neuroscience, it seems like the most important thing is one’s ability to regulate their emotional states in order to make the best use of their cognitive skills. So maybe it’s just it, “dumb” people get too emotional and are less able to make serene, rational choices.
It’s not an extraordinary claim.
“But IQ tests don’t measure that.”
Yes they do.
They don’t.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rational-and-irrational-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/
And it is obviously an extreme claim to pretend that a test score is a biological measure.
Humans are not rational and cannot make decisions without emotion .
Not In the slightest.
Also is that the study the discusses crystallized inhibitors? I already refuted all that.
Dear meLo, you never refuted a thing. You just constantly make a fool of yourself. IQ tests aren’t tests of rational thinking. Deal with it.
Human intelligence isn’t rational. Come back when you learn to read properly. It’s literally child’s play refuting your garbage.
Sure meLo, play with your imaginary dragon.
i’ve never agreed with that from an objective standpoint.
the same burden of proof applies equally to all claims — no matter how counter-intuitive.
as a point of rhetoric, however, it holds true. no matter how illogical it is, people are extremely DERPY and the strength of the proof can only be measured relative to the strength of their priors.
The burden of proof always lies on claimants. When I say IQ tests are just scores on an IQ test, I make no claim that needs to be supported by additional evidence.
Then when I say IQ scores can change without any observable change in biological characteristics, I’m just being descriptive. So the burden of proof is on those who disagree and show that the scores don’t actually change or that this change is tied to a biological process.
Epistemology even goes farther with Hitchen’s razor which states “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”.
So in fact, given that 90% of HBD’s evidences aren’t valid, one doesn’t have to produce counter-evidences. And most times I just refute the validity of their evidences and I don’t really need to formulate an alternative hypothesis. Though it’s always welcome to present valid and sound counter-arguments and the potential conclusions that follow from them.
Also seeing as how all of those paragraphs are blatant lies, I’m still waiting for evidence.
Tell me where are the lies please.
“The burden of proof always lies on claimants.”
i was just address whether extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
of course the people who do the claiming have the burden of proof.
Alright. Well, the extraordinary claim stuff best applies with paranormal/magical claims. It only makes sense the that the existence of unicorns can be refuted without evidence.
But tests often make very extraordinary claims too. If you take a “what Kardashian are you?” type of test, you need extraordinary evidence to convince yourself that you really are Caitlyn Jenner as the test tells you. Likewise, if a test tells you that you are super-smart a reasonable person must wonder how this actually matches reality and what types of exceptional achievements validate the claim.
“Sure meLo, play with your imaginary dragon.”
Logic is imaginary, just like melos pet dragon. Who needs logic? It’s not real; it’s fake, imaginary.
True. And the funny thing is that although logic is imaginary, the kid is convinced that his “refutations” are very real. What a clown. Done with him.
as a point of rhetorical persuasion i agree, but objectively, nah.
the burden of proof should be the same regardless of how the claim squares with your personal intuition.
however, people are incapable of viewing any claim without reference to their priors.
“Likewise, if a test tells you that you are super-smart a reasonable person must wonder how this actually matches reality and what types of exceptional achievements validate the claim.”
“Dur it’s not a perfect one-to-one correlation so people with high test scores aren’t always successful.”
his name is bruce!
Afro
“Sure meLo, play with your imaginary dragon.”
My whole point was that you have your own imaginary friend, But we both know you’re too scared to talk about that huh? Plus imaginary dragons are more fun than nerf guns.
1st lie: “Then when I say IQ scores can change without any observable change in biological characteristics, I’m just being descriptive.”
2nd lie “So in fact, given that 90% of HBD’s evidences aren’t valid”
“the kid is convinced that his “refutations” are very real. What a clown. Done with him.”
My refutations are based on actually verified premises and seeing as how my views concerning IQ, And Neuroscience are in line with dominant hypothesis’, my refutations are more valid. You can pretend to take the high road, but we both know how intellectually lazy you are.
RR,
“Logic is imaginary, just like melos pet dragon. Who needs logic? It’s not real; it’s fake, imaginary.”
Glad you finally get it.
“glad you finally get it”
I was mocking you. Your position on logic being “imaginary” makes no sense
“I was mocking you.”
Duh.
“Your position on logic being “imaginary” makes no sense”
Makes perfect sense. But you don’t know philosophy equally as you on’t know sarcasm.
“Besides, if someone said this chihuaha is not a German pastor jusr because in his environnement there is many chihuahuas or whatever, the beholder of this proposition should have the burden to show chihuhua getting German pastors.”
People use this horrible argument, or a variation of it, all the time. It’s stupid.
Burden of proof falls on the people who claim that genes cause IQ scores, that IQ scores cause life outcomes and that score differences between groups and individuals comes down to genes. That’s where the burden of proof lies, it doesn’t lie with skeptics.
It is not what I wrote. I can perfectly say there is no general intelligence or contest the measurement . But once you accept it, you fall into objective proof. And once you turn the table , I don’t see much to eat on the other side ….
I don’t accept it.
RR, if your stance is there is no measurable general intelligence, that’s very fine. But when you discuss environnement versus genes hypothesis,then, you fall in the objective proof realm. You can’t just say « not enough not enough « .You have to bring food to the table. Else, even it’s very good for improving the gene arguments, it produces a distorted presentation of the debate.
Besides, why is my Chihuahua argument (it looks like it’s a common one, I Happenend to reinvent it) horrible. I don’t like to be offensive and I don’t get where the offense lies.
“Burden of proof falls on the people who claim that genes cause IQ scores,”
Actually no, there have been many GWAS indicating some variance in intelligence is associated with genes. That’s more proof than you have(and no, swank is full of shit, the flynn effect is not evidence of environmentally induced gains on intelligence)
Evidence>skepticism in epistemic sequences.
To elaborate further, imagine I wanted to know the relationship between two variables, now lets say I set up an experiment and find a moderate correlation. Now it’s possible your response would be “correlation is not causation” which is of course true, but that only means I cannot make absolute statements, and the majority of scientists do not make bold generalizing claims, and most people who aren’t autistic don’t take every statement someone says as an absolute. In reality though, the burden of proof still lies with you. Remember the Connectome study you showed me, trying to disprove the neural efficiency hypothesis? Well that’s how actual experts apply skepticism, they replicated the experiment and then set up a new one, and fund that there was in fact no relationship. Do you get it now? We’re not asking you to “prove us wrong” we’re asking you to provide a better explanation, which you have yet to do. Until then, Occam’s razor ensures my statement’s validity.
“That’s more proof than you have”
Population stratification. Further, you cannot use European GWAS for other populations either, so Piffer’s study is bunk.
“we’re asking you to provide a better explanation, which you have yet to do”
I don’t need to to reject things. Either way, the 7 percent is population structure—it captures social class differences.
“Actually no, there have been many GWAS indicating some variance in intelligence is associated with genes.”
there have been numerous studies showing that the sunrise is associated with the rooster’s crow. NUMEROUS.
“and no, swank is full of shit, the flynn effect is not evidence of environmentally induced gains on intelligence)”
it’s evidence of environmentally induced gains on IQ. i don’t think IQ measures intelligence particularly well, if at all, even if it’s the best we have.
“In reality though, the burden of proof still lies with you.”
no it doesn’t. whoever makes the claim bears the burden. if you claim genes -> IQ, then it’s on you to meet the burden. if someone responds ‘a correlation really isn’t meaningful for x y and z reasons,’ they have explained why your ‘evidence’ has failed to meet the burden of proof.
evidence that meets the burden of proof sufficiently to shift that burden would be evidence that, if taken as true, and remained unrebutted, would establish the truth of the claim or at least a high likelihood.
which is why the evidence of a sunrise being associated with the rooster’s crow simply fails to meet the burden of proof of a claim that the rooster’s crow causes the sunrise.
“We’re not asking you to “prove us wrong” we’re asking you to provide a better explanation, which you have yet to do.”
no fucktard. a theory stands and falls on its own merits. the presence of alternatives is irrelevant.
derp! you have no alternative to my rooster’s crow theory, therefore we MUST ACCEPT IT.
“Until then, Occam’s razor ensures my statement’s validity.”
Occam’s razor only applies to competing claims that are consistent with all the data. seeing as how you yourself say that you cannot make absolute statements and concede that your claim is not consistent with all of the data, and, according to you, there are no competing claims, occam’s razor really doesn’t apply here.
“But when you discuss environnement versus genes hypothesis,then, you fall in the objective proof realm.”
no one seriously talks about nature v. nurture, so…
” You can’t just say « not enough not enough « .You have to bring food to the table. ”
no assclown, we don’t have to do anything.
the ‘offense’ lies in one side bloviating about how motivated by the ‘truth’ and ‘science’ they are and apparently being wholly ignorant of how it proceeds.
it’s like the artist who attacks critics.
you put yourself out there, ya schmucks!
if you can’t stand the heat, then don’t piss Harry Truman off.
buy the land, get the indians.
blah blah blah.
to whine about how no one else is putting themselves out there to insulate your theory from valid criticism is UNMANLY.
don’t worry, tho…
no fucktard. a theory stands and falls on its own merits. the presence of alternatives is irrelevant.
Exactly, that’s what evo-psych types don’t get. They can’t stand agnosticism and believe a theory is valid if it’s “the best” on the market.
So you’re not an HBD denier, you’re an HBD agnostic?
I’m an HBD denier because my understanding and my intuition point toward another direction. But if I had to bet all I have on any position, I’d pick agnoticism first, then environmentalism, and HBD would come last, by far.
Evo psych types hates this argument because it’s irrefutable:
P1) A just-so story is an ad-hoc hypothesis
P2) A hypothesis is ad-hoc if it’s not independently verified (verified independently of the data the hypothesis purports to explain)
P3) EP hypotheses cannot be independently verified
C) Therefore EP hypotheses are just-so stories
RR,
“Population stratification. Further, you cannot use European GWAS for other populations either, so Piffer’s study is bunk.”
Again humans are incredibly homogenous, European genes are largely a subset of African ones.
Swank,
“there have been numerous studies showing that the sunrise is associated with the rooster’s crow. NUMEROUS.”
Citations? I always suspected this was the case. Joking aside, correlation isnt causation…but most correlations are causation.
If you believe that “it’s evidence of environmentally induced gains on IQ.” then this implies you are discussing ” about nature v. nurture,”. Sorry if I mischaracterized your views.
” if someone responds ‘a correlation really isn’t meaningful for x y and z reasons,’ they have explained why your ‘evidence’ has failed to meet the burden of proof.”
Validation is relative, I’m not saying the correlation is the end all be all, but its more evidence than you have. Secondly you probably haven’t been around long enough to actually follow our arguments but I have refuted the empricial and logical “justifications” backing his skepticism multiple times, he just likes to repeat himself. I have no problem with criticism, I just criticize back.
“European genes are largely a subset of African ones.”
This doesn’t mean European GWAS can be used for non-European populations.
I should say British GWAS since most GWA studies derive from the UK biobank.
“This doesn’t mean European GWAS can be used for non-European populations.”
Why?
There is too much passion in this for me as I don’t have any preferred hypothesis .For example Dutton though all genes hyp like established truth and that can be annoying .Maybe in the comments here, it works the other way around.
My favorite outcome is not all genes or environment . It would be just the cause that people could humanly – without hurting anyone -improve.But the truth is not influenced by the good nor a fortiori by the pleasant