Every time I imply that nutrition is a relatively unimportant factor when it comes to height, brain size, or IQ differences within countries or generations, I get heckled in the comments by people who think they know what they’re talking about.
For starters I should say, that between generations and countries, the effects of nutrition are huge. For example, the average white young American man was 5’7″ in WWI, but about 5’10.4″ by the early 21st century (an increase of about 1.3 standard deviations). A parallel rise has probably happened to brain development, and this probably explains a big chunk of the Flynn effect as Richard Lynn brilliantly noted way back in the 1980s, though I think he overstated the case. And btw, when Lynn talks about nutrition, he also includes stuff like disease, since that prevents the body from using nutrients.
And just as modern people score higher on IQ tests than Victorians, largely (though not mostly) because of nutrition, African Americans score higher on IQ tests than their West African cousins largely because of nutrition, as my fellow celebrity Steve Sailer brilliantly noted over a decade ago.
A study recruited peoples of West African ancestry from several places around the world. The West Africans born in America (who had presumably lived in the developed world for centuries) had a mean height of 1.765 m (SD = 0.073) for men (see table table 1 of this document) and 1.634 m (SD = 0.064 for women). By contrast, in the exact same study, men living in sub-Saharan countries had a mean of 1.684 m (Nigeria) and 1.701 m (Cameroon), so about 1.693 m overall; women in sub-Saharan countries had a mean of 1.583 m (Nigeria) and 1.607 m (Cameroon), so about 1.595 m overall.
In other words, Third World West African men were 0.99 SD shorter than African American men, and Third World West African women were 0.61 SD shorter than African American women; averaging across both genders, it seems being born in Africa stunts height by about 0.8 SD, relative to those born in the First World.
The problem with invoking nutrition to explain inter-generational and inter-national differences is people think it only applies to the poor. They can’t wrap their brains around the fact that even elites in past generations and poor countries were also be malnourished.
The above is data from the famous Minnesota study of twins reared apart by Thomas Bouchard. Now assuming his sample was roughly representative of American environments, the height correlation between identical twins raised apart is an astonishing 0.86, suggesting 86% of the variation in American height is genetic. Taking the square root of 0.86 tells us that height in America correlates a stratospheric 0.93 with genetic height, AND THAT’S A CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE, BECAUSE UNLIKE THIS STUDY WHERE PEOPLE WERE ADOPTED, IN MOST CASES TALL PEOPLE ACTUALLY GROW UP IN BETTER HOMES, SO THE TRUE CORRELATION IS FURTHER STRENGTHENED BY GENE-ENVIRONMENT CO-VARIANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now if we subtract the correlation between identical twins raised apart (0.86) from the correlation between identical twins raised together (0.93), we learn that adding identical family environment to identical genes, only increases the height correlation by 0.07, which means that only 7% of the variation in U.S. height can be explained by the type of home you grew up in.
Now if we take the square root of 0.07, we get a 0.26 correlation between height and family environment. Assuming the same correlation exists within sub-Saharan African countries, where nutrition stunts the average black by 0.8 SD compared to blacks in the U.S., only one in a thousand black Africans should have a family environment nutrition enough to match the average American black.
We can estimate this because the one in a thousand level is about 3.06 standard deviations above the mean, and assuming a 0.26 causal correlation between height and family environment, the slope of the standardized regression line predicting height from family environment (independent of genetic effects since the figure was obtained from an adoption study) you have to be that far above the mean before the 0.8 SD African nutrition deficit is negated: 3.06 standard deviations above the mean multiplied by a 0.26 independent correlation between height and family environment = 0.8 SD nutrition gap between American blacks and their West African cousins.
The same calculations imply that if you’re an American born after 1980, then you’d need to have been born among the most elite one in FIVE MILLION late 19th century Americans to achieve the same height you’d have being born in a completely average modern American home.
So yes, nutrition matters for height (and by extension, IQ and brain size) within countries and generations, but the effect is so completely dwarfed by between country and between generation effects that I’m inclined to ignore it.
Now all these calculations assume the 0.26 correlation between family environment and height is the same in all countries and generations which is surely wrong to some degree, but perhaps not wrong in the direction people think. I was recently sent a paper claiming the effects of family environment on height in the developed world is actually increasing, which means as countries get richer, family environment matters more to height, not less, which means that the effect would be even smaller in poor countries and past generations, WHICH MEANS THE CALCULATIONS I MADE UNDERSTATE MY CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s cute. Now look at which vitamins and minerals affect height and which populations are deficient in them in America and Africa.
What a garbage post. Repeating everything again is meaningless without looking at which nutrients a population is deficient in
“I get heckled in the comments by people who think they know what they’re talking about.”
My friend, I know damn well what I’m talking about. I’ve shown your ignorance to nutrition countless times. This is my domain. You’re completely ignorant to this research. You’re saying muh conditions, we’ll conditions aren’t uniform within countries.
I’m literally in this field pp. Your “knowledge” here does not hold a candle to mine. You’re wrong dude. You didn’t even talk about nutrients and height, which was my main damn point.
I’ll go in depth later.
My friend, I know damn well what I’m talking about. I’ve shown your ignorance to nutrition countless times
No you haven’t RR. And it’s not your domain, it’s just the only field with standards low enough for even you to find work.
Yes I have shown you countless times that you’re clueless. Respond to me on low carb dieting when you have an actual understanding of human metabolism and physiology. Still waiting on that reply. I’m also waiting on the reply when I destroyed your argument when you said that blacks are stronger than Whites.
Low standards? Sure thing. I have a passion for what I do. Who knows what you do? Probably some garbage job. You won’t even say what you do, it’s extremely vague.
Stick to your celebrity worship and cold winter garbage while the people who know about nutrition talk about it. Because you’re clueless as to what you’re talking about, you don’t know shit about nutrition and you don’t know shit about why nutrients affect the body and how they affect it.
My domain? I dominated your “argument” that blacks are stronger than Whites and since then you’ve not said a peep about it. I dominated you on low carb dieting and how diets destroy your metabolism. I dominated your garbage on your idiocy about obesity being “genetic”. That’s what I call a Smackdown®.
Stick to Oprah dude. Leave nutrition to the people who actually know what they’re talking about.
You haven’t destroyed any argument RR. You argument for whites being stronger was just to repeat the term “muscle fibres” 100 times & cite strongman competitions that very few countries compete in. It’s like arguing blacks have the highest verbal IQs because they win freestyle rap contests. Proves nothing.
I actually cited a scientific study showing blacks men & women were both better at bench pressing both before and after training than whites. You just sat there scratching your head saying. “But, but, muscle fibres! MUSCLE FIBRES!”
On dieting, you provided zero large scale longterm studies showing low carb diets work better than conventional diets. You just blathered on about metabolism and hunger hormones
“You argument for whites being stronger was just to repeat the term “muscle fibres” 100 times & cite strongman competitions that very few countries compete in.”
You’re showing your ignorance here. You don’t know a thing about physiology if you’re saying this.
American blacks hardly ever even place for the WSM!! It’s due to their somatype and muscle fiber typing. You don’t know what to say because you’re literally ignorant to the field.
“I actually cited a scientific study showing blacks men & women were both better at bench pressing both before and after training than whites. You just sat there scratching your head saying. “But, but, muscle fibres! MUSCLE FIBRES!””
Scratching my head? Hahaha. Actually READ that damn paper and you’d see:
No differences were found between black and white females in bench press strength at either testing period. Black males had a significantly (p ≤ 0.01) greater bench press strength than white males at both testing periods. However, the amount of change between races in bench press strength was not significant. Males were significantly stronger than females at both testing periods (p ≤ 0.001). Males changed significantly more than females from initial recruit to in-service tests (p ≤ 0.001).
http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1604&context=ijes
You said that black women were stronger than white women. WRONG. This is also done on 17 whites and 13 blacks. Hardly robust. Nutrition/exercise studies suck due to low a low n. Black males also had the greatest body mass gain. They write that the significant change in fat mass may probably explains the body mass//bench press. Even after adjusting for that, the gap was still there but was NOT significant.
“On dieting, you provided zero large scale longterm studies showing low carb diets work better than conventional diets. You just blathered on about metabolism and hunger hormones”
If you had even a small understanding of nutrition you’d understand where I was coming from but you do not. Keep copy and pasting links from garbage books which I have read and summarily discredited. If you knew even a sliver on what the different macros do in the body you’d see where I was coming from.
You’re not interested in the truth about dieting; you’re interested in being a Big Food Shill for Oprah and her garbage company.
And what you do not understand is I made the claim: dieting destroys metabolisms. I showeds three studies backing my claim. I showed one study showing that adaptive thermogenesis does not go away even after 6 years, and could still cite more studies for that claim as well.
Stick to Oprah dude.
American blacks hardly ever even place for the WSM!! It’s due to their somatype and muscle fiber typing.
And from 1950 to 1970, non-Russians didn’t produce a single World chess champion. Non-Russians must be really dumb. Must be their inferior brain fiber typing. Great logic RR.
No differences were found between black and white females in bench press strength at either testing period.
WRONG! Look at the actual results. Black females out-benched white females by 1.4 kg initially, and by 4 kg after training.
This is also done on 17 whites and 13 blacks. Hardly robust.
The male sample had 41 blacks, and an astonishing 238 whites. And the superior black strength was replicated after one of the longest follow-ups in the history of strength research. And then the results were replicated in women, and that too was replicated after one of the longest follow-ups in the history of strength training. That’s replication on top of replication on top of replication.
And what you do not understand is I made the claim: dieting destroys metabolisms. I showeds three studies backing my claim. I showed one study showing that adaptive thermogenesis does not go away even after 6 years, and could still cite more studies for that claim as well.
So fat people should just stay fat and put themselves at risk for a heart attack, stroke, diabetes, ridicule, discrimination, low energy and immobility because heaven forbid they might slow their metabolism by dieting. Great logic RR!
“And from 1950 to 1970, non-Russians didn’t produce a single World chess champion. Non-Russians must be really dumb. Must be their inferior brain fiber typing. Great logic RR.”
The WSM has been around for 41 years; a white man has won every single event. Who talks about brain fiber typing? Muscle fiber typing is a real thing with actual distribution across the the races. Try again.
“WRONG! Look at the actual results. Black females out-benched white females by 1.4 kg initially, and by 4 kg after training.”
The black females gained more weight (not surprising). This was a sample of 13 black women and 17 white women. Hardly robust.
“The male sample had 41 blacks, and an astonishing 238 whites.”
Sorry, I meant the female sample.
“And the superior black strength was replicated after one of the longest follow-ups in the history of strength research.”
“Superior black strength”. You don’t think that a smaller black sample skews for a higher bench press?
You really do have no idea how anomalous this study is. Muscle mass decreases as you age. Less muscle mass means less strength. How many times has this study been replicated? It’s only been cited one time.
One more thing: This study proves me right. Pound for pound, whites were stronger.
black weight 223.8 white weight 205.48 black bench press 240.9 white bench press 214.28 205 div 215=.95 224 div 240 = .93
“And then the results were replicated in women, and that too was replicated after one of the longest follow-ups in the history of strength training. That’s replication on top of replication on top of replication.”
Dude, it’s one study following the same cohort. So you can’t say it’s “replication on top of replication”. The black women also gained more weight. I don’t even care about an anomalous finding showing that people got stronger into their 30s going to their 40s. It’s anomalous. All the literature shows that’s when large decreases in strength begin.
“So fat people should just stay fat and put themselves at risk for a heart attack, stroke, diabetes, ridicule, discrimination, low energy and immobility because heaven forbid they might slow their metabolism. Great logic RR!”
Great logic? You literally don’t know what you’re talking about here. You’re just a Big Food Shill.
Heart attack, stroke and diabetes?
The study randomly assigned 5,145 overweight or obese people with Type 2 diabetes to either a rigorous diet and exercise regimen or to sessions in which they got general health information. The diet involved 1,200 to 1,500 calories a day for those weighing less than 250 pounds and 1,500 to 1,800 calories a day for those weighing more. The exercise program was at least 175 minutes a week of moderate exercise.
But 11 years after the study began, researchers concluded it was futile to continue — the two groups had nearly identical rates of heart attacks, strokes and cardiovascular deaths.
[…]
But the outcome is clear, said Dr. David Nathan, a principal investigator and director of the Diabetes Center at Massachusetts General Hospital. “We have to have an adult conversation about this,” he said. “This was a negative result.”
Sure.
People shouldn’t ridicule and shame fat people, it makes the problem worse:
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/07/06/science-proves-it-fat-shaming-doesnt-work/
And cause biochemical stress leading to the retention of weight/further weight gain:
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/12/19/fat-shaming-and-weight-regain/
Obesity ain’t a death sentence.
Mortality depends on fitness, not fatness.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033062013001552
Solid job being uninformed, PP.
You really do have no idea how anomalous this study is.
How can it be anomalous when it’s the only study of its kind? How can you claim to have proven that whites are stronger than blacks when the only scientific study on the topic shows the opposite? You’re delusional.
Muscle mass decreases as you age. Less muscle mass means less strength.
It increased in this study because they were strength training.
How many times has this study been replicated?
The study was internally self-replicated. The women replicated the black > white strength gap seen in the men, and it showed the gap existed both before and after 12 years of training. Maybe another study will be done and show the opposite, but as things stand today, the evidence is against you.
One more thing: This study proves me right. Pound for pound, whites were stronger.
Shifting the goal posts. Your argument was that whites were stronger than blacks, not that they were stronger relative to weight.
But 11 years after the study began, researchers concluded it was futile to continue — the two groups had nearly identical rates of heart attacks, strokes and cardiovascular deaths.
Well that’s surprising and more research is needed, but the preponderance of evidence still shows dieting is good for fat people. A 2015 meta-analysis of 15 studies found:
In obese adults, intentional weight loss may be associated with approximately a 15% reduction in all-cause mortality.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4368053/
“How can it be anomalous when it’s the only study of its kind?”
Anomalous because they gained strength into their 30s going into their 40s.
“How can you claim to have proven that whites are stronger than blacks when the only scientific study on the topic shows the opposite? You’re delusional.”
I’m delusional? Review my evidence.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/08/25/muscle-fiber-typing-and-race-redux/
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/08/17/muscle-fiber-typing-hbd-and-sports/
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/01/18/expounding-on-my-theory-for-racial-differences-in-sports/
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/10/19/blacks-are-not-stronger-than-whites/
I have proven it.
“The study was internally self-replicated. The women replicated the black > white strength gap seen in the men, and it showed the gap existed both before and after 12 years of training. Maybe another study will be done and show the opposite, but as things stand today, the evidence is against you.”
Pound for pound strength matters more. What’s more impressive PP? Someone who weighs 400 pounds benching 400 for 1 or someone who weighs 200 pounds benching 300 for 1?
And it’s the same cohort; it doesn’t matter if it’s ‘self-replicated’. This study does not sway me, because I have the knowledge to point out the flaws in the study (which I did and could still do).
“Shifting the goal posts. You’re argument was that whites were stronger than blacks, not that they were stronger relative to weight.”
What’s more impressive PP? Someone who weighs 400 pounds benching 400 for 1 or someone who weighs 200 pounds benching 300 for 1?
Pound for pound, whites were slightly stronger. Divide weight benched by weight and you’ll get how strong they are per body weight. Whites were slightly stronger at the end, proving my point! Even then, in elite competition, whites BLOW AWAY blacks, strengthening my point.
“Well that’s surprising and more research is needed, but the preponderance of evidence still shows dieting is good for fat people.”
The preponderance of evidence shows that dieting don’t work:
Click to access Mannetal2007AP.pdf
“A 2015 meta-analysis of 15 studies found:”
It’s unclear if confounding or selection bias was attributed to the observed mortality advantage since it wasn’t randomized.
See above why the weight loss route doesn’t work for people.
Actually, they used the LOOK AHEAD study that I cited in the analysis.
However, in the meta-analysis I cited, fitness and not fatness was the best predictor of mortality. Obesity only has negative mortality effects past BMI 35. Re: the obesity paradox:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-ef1CQAAQBAJ&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=obesity+and+mortality+aamodt&source=bl&ots=YJd9MjyCCT&sig=KgcogvHj0iTtv_OT9VQdFYc7SJ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE-JvOsNXSAhVPySYKHWVVDVkQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=obesity%20and%20mortality%20aamodt&f=false
I have proven it.
No you haven’t RR. The only study that directly tested the hypothesis shows the exact opposite of your conclusion.
Pound for pound strength matters more. What’s more impressive PP? Someone who weighs 400 pounds benching 400 for 1 or someone who weighs 200 pounds benching 300 for 1?
We’re not arguing about what matters more or what’s more impressive. We’re arguing about you claiming to have proven whites are stronger than blacks. The only scientific study we can find on the topic shows the opposite.
And it’s the same cohort; it doesn’t matter if it’s ‘self-replicated’.
Who cares if it’s the same cohort? It showed that blacks are stronger than whites in 4 different categories: 1)young men with no training, 2)older men with lots of training, 3)young women with no training, 4)older women with lots of training.
This study does not sway me, because I have the knowledge to point out the flaws in the study (which I did and could still do).
Every study in the history of science has had flaws, RR. You’re just dismissing it because it doesn’t fit your worldview, rather than considering the possibility that your views might be too simplistic.
Even then, in elite competition, whites BLOW AWAY blacks, strengthening my point.
Why would blacks (who have limited economic and social resources on average) waste their lives training for elite strength competition that offer very little money or prestige, when they have the ability to join the NFL, NBA, or professional boxing?
The preponderance of evidence shows that dieting don’t work:
Your study is a decade old and contradicted by the very recent meta-analysis I cited showing deliberate weight loss reduces all cause mortality by 15%
It’s unclear if confounding or selection bias was attributed to the observed mortality advantage since it wasn’t randomized.
It was randomized. Read the title: Intentional Weight Loss and All-Cause Mortality: A Meta-Analysis of RANDOMIZED Clinical Trials
“No you haven’t RR. The only study that directly tested the hypothesis shows the exact opposite of your conclusion.”
It doesn’t PP. You’re literally cluless when it comes to strength training. What I simply did shows who was stronger pound for pound. If the mean weight of the blacks was 400 pounds and they weighed 400 pounds you’d say SEE!! They are stronger than the whites who weight 200 and can only bench 300 pounds!!! Think about that.
Blacks in both also gained more weight. You’ve yet to address this.
“Who cares if it’s the same cohort? It showed that blacks are stronger than whites in 4 different categories: 1)young men with no training, 2)older men with lots of training, 3)young women with no training, 4)older women with lots of training.”
“Who cares if it’s the same cohort. it fits my simplistic Rushton’s Rule, showing that 13 percent higher testosterone is the cause for blacks being stronger!!!”
I showed you that at the end of the study that whites were slightly stronger PP. I am correct. Understand strength sports and you’d get it. This is why I can say this is my domain. I actually know what I’m talking about here.
“Why would blacks (who have limited economic and social resources on average) waste their lives training for elite strength competition that offer very little money or prestige, when they have the ability to join the NFL, NBA, or professional boxing?”
Nothing to do with that. If someone is a natural at something, they will do it. I follow the sport of powerlifting/Strongman. Don’t even need to tell you what I see.
The only reason you’re emphatically arguing this is because it fits Rushton’s simple Rule. You’re literally cluless what what I’m talking about here. You didn’t respond to any of my evidence showing the opposite of your contention because you don’t know anything about the human body.
“Your study is a decade old and contradicted by the very recent meta-analysis I cited showing deliberate weight loss reduces all cause mortality by 15%”
You said diet for weight loss. I showed a study that says weight loss don’t work. The other meta-analysis I cited showed that fitness, not fatness, mattered for all-cause mortality. Different things.
“It was randomized. Read the title: Intentional Weight Loss and All-Cause Mortality: A Meta-Analysis of RANDOMIZED Clinical Trials”
Oops. My bad.
Self-reported weight loss:
Despite the overall finding, it is worth noting that several of the observational studies included in this meta-analysis found self-reported intentional weight loss to be associated with increased risk of mortality.
Ahahaha. From Mann et al 2007:
Participants in the 15 studies significantly underestimated their weight by approximately 2.1 kg (4.6 lb). More extreme bias (underestimates of 3.7 kg [8.2 lb]) was found when considering just the studies of individuals in weight loss programs, although these conclusions should be considered tentative as there were only two
such studies. Nevertheless, it is important for researchers to use scale-measured weights as often as possible and to be aware that the use of self-reported weights will bias studies toward making diets look more effective than they are.
So not only do we not know the true weight loss, it’s possible that no weight loss occurred in many of the trials they meta-analyzed.
Get a clue about obesity research.
And yea, this study sucks. A damn smith machine bench press was used? Don’t make me laugh.
and a one repetition maximum (1RM) bench press test a measure of upper
body muscular strength (30) using a Smith Bench Press Machine.
Surely I don’t need to tell you why this is a huge problem.
Here pp. The strength study was garbage. I went through it here.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/03/14/muscular-strength-by-gender-and-race/
Smith machine? Hahaha. No height measurement? Huge problem, though not the fault of the authors.
You gotta do better than this if you want to prove and convince me that blacks are stronger than Whites.
I don’t want to convince you blacks are stronger than whites, I’d just like you to be less dogmatic in claiming the opposite, because what little scientific research has been done is against you. You can nitpick the first excellent study I cited all you want, but I’ve now found a second study, also showing blacks are stronger than whites (see table 1 (hand grip strength)).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933725/
Quit while you’re only a mile behind RR.
Lol man. Actually read that study.
“Nonetheless, the finding that higher lean mass among non-white men does not translate into better grip strength or physical function is broadly consistent with general findings of worse health outcomes (morbidity, mortality) among non-white men”
I’ve cited this study in my other article on strength. Guess I’ll take the time this afternoon and edit my post for a full analysis of this study. (this proves me right, read the study instead of selecting what agrees with your contention!)
Do you admit that the bench press study was garbage? And that study was not excellent. Huge problems measuring black body fat with calipers, that’s a huge pitfall! Further, you can’t assess actual strength on a damn smith machine. Different muscles are activated and less force is used during the lift. It’s garbage dude.
“Nonetheless, the finding that higher lean mass among non-white men does not translate into better grip strength or physical function is broadly consistent with general findings of worse health outcomes (morbidity, mortality) among non-white men”
Non-whites includes Hispanics. Look at the actual results. The hand-grip strength of blacks is greater.
this proves me right, read the study instead of selecting what agrees with your contention!
I selected the part that was relevant. The actual results of the strength comparison.
Do you admit that the bench press study was garbage? And that study was not excellent. Huge problems measuring black body fat with calipers, that’s a huge pitfall!
What does body fat have to do with anything? The question is which race is strongest? Period. Stop creating red herrings.
Further, you can’t assess actual strength on a damn smith machine.
So now it’s the machine’s fault. The machine must be racist against whites. Give it up RR! Just looking at the blacks and whites I meet in everyday life, it’s obvious the blacks (at least those of West African descent) are stronger on average. This makes sense because they have more TESTOSTERONE (your favorite substance!). But there might be certain white ethnic groups (i.e. Scandinavians) that are especially strong, and these are the ones who win the strength contests.
I’ll reply in full this afternoon but I just thought I’d let you know that hand grip strength does not equal full body strength and is a horrible measure to assess overall strength. I’ll explain more about this study later. Making judgements on a cohort that was literally a sample of people in Boston—not Americans as a whole.
You need to have a background here to be able to point out what is wrong with these studies. Do you take everything you read at face value or do you look into it yourself? As I said, I literally have the knowledge to assess these types of studies so I recommend you get a clue here so we can have a real discussion on this matter.
So because you have knowledge of this field, you feel you’re qualified to conclude that the white race is genetically stronger than the black race, even though the few scientific studies you know of, despite their flaws, show blacks have more testosterone and perform better on strength tasks?
The difference is 2.5 to 4.9 percent favoring blacks over whites.
For functionality, whites perform better. Furthermore, grip strength is not a true measure of overall physical strength. Finally, physical strength is correlated with mortality. Stronger men live longer than weaker men. Who lives longer in America pp? I know you love correlations, so chew on that.
The difference is 2.5 to 4.9 percent favoring blacks over whites.
The difference is greater in college age men.
Furthermore, grip strength is not a true measure of overall physical strength. Finally, physical strength is correlated with mortality. Stronger men live longer than weaker men. Who lives longer in America pp?
Horrible argument. Women live longer than men. By your logic women must be stronger.
Ross 1986 used 50 blacks. Richard et al 2014 controlled for age.
The correlation is for men, obviously. Not women.
Ross 1986 used 50 blacks.
50 is enough
Richard et al 2014 controlled for age.
Controlled for age but was skewed towards older men where the race differences in T are smaller.
Whites also had a higher composite physical function score. What the CPF assesses is functional status. Whites have more functional strength than blacks.
And you say I’m nitpicking. I am not. I have the knowledge here to point out things wrong with these studies. I have an actual background here buddy. So I will point out what is wrong as well as why what is wrong with the study is a huge problem while attempting to assess the strength of the cohort.
Get a clue on strength pp!
“Non-whites includes Hispanics. Look at the actual results. The hand-grip strength of blacks is greater.”
Yes, PP. Look at the actual results. Whites had a physical composite score 25 percent higher than blacks. Whites were stronger than non-whites despite having less muscle mass after controlling for confounds. Why? Muscle fiber typing. I’ve been telling you this for a while now.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/03/15/racial-differences-in-grip-strength/
“I selected the part that was relevant. The actual results of the strength comparison.”
lol
“What does body fat have to do with anything? The question is which race is strongest? Period. Stop creating red herrings.”
How is that a red herring? The authors themselves bring up the very same point. It does matter. It would skew the reading, but you don’t know anything about that. Understandable.
“So now it’s the machine’s fault”
Do all individuals have the same anatomic proportions? You know that Smith Machines are on a set range of motion right? And you know that certain muscles don’t activate, and all of the muscle force isn’t activated during Smith Machine bench press since you’re not stabilizing the weight on your own. Further, depending on make, they skew results 10-30 pounds! They make the ‘bar’ lighter. You’ve no idea what you’re talking about here, so why are you talking about it?
“Just looking at the blacks and whites I meet in everyday life, it’s obvious the blacks (at least those of West African descent) are stronger on average.”
Useless for this discussion.
“This makes sense because they have more TESTOSTERONE (your favorite substance!). But there might be certain white ethnic groups (i.e. Scandinavians) that are especially strong, and these are the ones who win the strength contests.”
On T, they hardly have more and yes I have shown that Northern Europeans in particular excel at strength sports due to fiber typing.
I’ve shown overall that whites and blacks differ in fiber typing. I’ve shown that the study you cited was garbage and I’ve shown that the other study you cited doesn’t say what you think it does. Blacks have lower life expectancy, higher rates of obesity, and higher rates of cancer. They also have lower grip strength which is related to all three. This is due, in part, to their muscle fiber typing. Give it up PP. I’ve proven my contention numerous times, you’re just not knowledgable in this field to make any sensible conclusions on the results of the testosterone/strength studies.
Whites are stronger than blacks.
You are WRONG.
Yes, PP. Look at the actual results. Whites had a physical composite score 25 percent higher than blacks.
We’re not talking about physical composites, we’re talking about physical strength. Stop changing the subject. The physical composite included stuff like how fast you can walk and get up from your chair. You’re conflating different things.
Whites were stronger than non-whites despite having less muscle mass after controlling for confounds.
I just explained to you, non-whites includes Hispanics. When compared to blacks, whites were weaker. And we’re not talking about who is stronger relative to muscle mass. We’re talking about who is stronger period.
Why? Muscle fiber typing. I’ve been telling you this for a while now.
You repeat that term like a mantra. Anyway according to this source (don’t know how accurate it is), fast-twitching muscle fibers are better for strength:
Those weightlifting for strength and power, like sprinters and powerlifters, usually have more fast-twitch muscles fibers
So which race has more fast-twitching muscle fibers? This source says there are 2 kinds of fast-twitching muscle fibers and West Africans are superior in BOTH:
For years it was axiomatic that muscles have two types of fibers – white, or fast-twitch, which were thought to be adapted for power movements, such as leaping or sprinting; and red, or slow-twitch, which were adapted for endurance. Now we know the model is more complicated. There are in fact two different types of fast-twitch fibers, one more metabolically efficient. Whites on average have a higher percentage of slow-twitch fibers than West African blacks who generally have more of both types of fast-twitch fibers.
How is that a red herring? The authors themselves bring up the very same point. It does matter.
RR, try not to get confused. We arguing over who is stronger PERIOD. It doesn’t matter if the strength is caused by weight, fat, muscle, bones, or whatever else you use to confuse the issue.
Do all individuals have the same anatomic proportions? You know that Smith Machines are on a set range of motion right? And you know that certain muscles don’t activate, and all of the muscle force isn’t activated during Smith Machine bench press since you’re not stabilizing the weight on your own. Further, depending on make, they skew results 10-30 pounds!
No measure of strength is perfect, RR. Do you have any evidence that Smith Machines systematically overestimate the strength of blacks relative to whites? No. You’re just grasping at straws because all the research is against you.
On T, they hardly have more
Black men have WAY more T than whites when both races are in their prime.
Blacks have lower life expectancy, higher rates of obesity, and higher rates of cancer. They also have lower grip strength which is related to all three.
Please learn to read. Black have HIGHER grip strength than whites (40.83 kg vs 40.24 kg). Again, see table 1 of the second study debunking you. What part of 40.83 being higher than 40.24 do you not understand?
“We’re not talking about physical composites, we’re talking about physical strength. Stop changing the subject. The physical composite included stuff like how fast you can walk and get up from your chair. You’re conflating different things.”
No I’m not. I read the study a few times. I know about it. It’s a part of a questionnaire showing how independent one is.
Click to access Developmentandvalidationofcriterionreferencedfitnessstandards2012.pdf
Curls are also used. The point of the assessment is to test independence.
Grip strength is not physical strength. You’re taking the results out of context. The chair test was part of the lower extremity strength assessment. It’s a staple in kinesiology research.
The whole point of the study was to assess grip strength, lean mass and physical function due to the already known confounds and racial disparities in disease due to the variables that were tested in this study! The point was, they were puzzled that blacks had a greater lean mass index by 5 percent, but a 20 percent worse physical composite score. And, as I told you before, this comes down to fiber typings. Really, what the chair test tested was aerobic capacity. Not too good for blacks, as I have documented in the past 3 days.
“I just explained to you, non-whites includes Hispanics. When compared to blacks, whites were weaker. And we’re not talking about who is stronger relative to muscle mass. We’re talking about who is stronger period.”
You don’t understand the paper. Period. If blacks were stronger than they would have lower rates of disease. The authors kinda bring up the point, read the paper, understand the paper, absorb the paper.
Hand grip strength isn’t related to total body strength anyway.
https://www.naseinc.com/blog/is-hand-grip-strength-a-predictor-of-total-body-strength/
Hand grip strength is extremely useful for identifying at-risk populations however.
Get a clue about this research.
“You repeat that term like a mantra. Anyway according to this source (don’t know how accurate it is), fast-twitching muscle fibers are better for strength:”
Correct, but no distinction is made: type IIa are more useful in power lifting and Olympic lifting while type IIx are more useful in more explosive, shorter bouts of competition.
https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/03/17/racial-differences-in-muscle-fiber-typing-cause-differences-in-elite-sporting-competition/
Blacks have higher rates of type II fibers while whites have more type I fibers:
Click to access 10.1007%40s40279-015-0318-7.pdf
Blacks have fewer type I fibers. Power lifters have similar amounts of type I fibers compared to controls.
Click to access 10.1519%4000124278-200305000-00031.pdf
Power lifters use more type IIa fibers and fewer IIx fibers, while blacks use IIx fibers in explosive competition. There is the difference between fiber typing and why there are few black power lifters.
“So which race has more fast-twitching muscle fibers? This source says there are 2 kinds of fast-twitching muscle fibers and West Africans are superior in BOTH:”
Not what the study said:
Muscle fiber type proportions (I, IIa, and IIb), fiber areas and activities of several enzyme markers of different energy metabolic pathways were determined from a biopsy of the vastus lateralis. Results indicated that Caucasians had a higher percent type I (8%, P less than 0.01) and a lower percent type IIa (6.7%, P less than 0.05) fiber proportions than Africans.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/20208911_Skeletal_muscle_characteristics_in_sedentary_Black_and_Caucasian_Americans
I showed the differences between power lifters and the regular population. Same amount of type I, higher amount of type IIa, lower type IIx. This (along with leverages and other anatomic differences) account for differences in these sports. Especially Strongman/power lifting. Get a clue. You’re obsessed with attempting to ‘prove’ your hypotheses’ without ever taking a look or reading what you’re provided. You’re the dogmatic one. I can confidently say that I am correct because I know how to interpret the data. You do not. It’s extremely clear.
“RR, try not to get confused. We arguing over who is stronger PERIOD. It doesn’t matter if the strength is caused by weight, fat, muscle, bones, or whatever else you use to confuse the issue.”
If you don’t understand how that’s an issue, I question your intelligence. I’m not trying to ‘confuse the issue’. It’s a valid point. You don’t have the knowledge to understand what I am talking about here. You’re assuming that I’m trying to ‘confuse the issue’ because you yourself are confused because you don’t know what I’m talking about.
Blacks have longer limbs relative to height than whites. Skin fold thickness is lower in blacks in the sites done on the skin fold: the chest, abdomen, and the suprailic site. This would skew body fat readings. You don’t know anything about this though, understandable.
Smith Machines also suck to assess true overall strength.
“No measure of strength is perfect, RR. Do you have any evidence that Smith Machines systematically overestimate the strength of blacks relative to whites? No. You’re just grasping at straws because all the research is against you.”
The bench press exercise exists in multiple forms including the machine and free weight bench press. It is not clear though how each mode differs in its effect on muscle activation. The purpose of this study was to compare muscle activation of the anterior deltoid, medial deltoid, and pectoralis major during a Smith machine and free weight bench press at lower (70% 1 repetition maximum [1RM]) and higher (90% 1RM) intensities. Normalized electromyography amplitude values were used during the concentric phase of the bench press to compare muscle activity between a free weight and Smith machine bench press. Participants were classified as either experienced or inexperienced bench pressers. Two testing sessions were used, each of which entailed either all free weight or all Smith machine testing. In each testing session, each participant’s 1RM was established followed by 2 repetitions at 70% of 1RM and 2 repetitions at 90% of 1RM. Results indicated greater activation of the medial deltoid on the free weight bench press than on the Smith machine bench press. Also, there was greater muscle activation at the 90% 1RM load than at the 70% 1RM load. The results of this study suggest that strength coaches should consider choosing the free weight bench press over the Smith machine bench press because of its potential for greater upper-body muscular development.
Click to access 10.1519%40jsc.0b013e3181cc2237.pdf
“Black men have WAY more T than whites when both races are in their prime.”
You grasp at one study when I have provided sufficient evidence against the case. You’re the one grasping here. Rohrmann et al 2007 and Richard et al 2014 are much more robust than Ross et al 1986. That’s the only study you can cite. The last release of REB was 2000. Rushton died in 2012. The paper came out in 2014. Give it up. The T difference isn’t that high. You’re wrong. Rushton is wrong.
“Please learn to read. Black have HIGHER grip strength than whites (40.83 kg vs 40.24 kg). Again, see table 1 of the second study debunking you. What part of 40.83 being higher than 40.24 do you not understand?”
Ouch. How could I forget that the dynamometer doesn’t measure maximal muscular strength “which is a superior measure of muscle strength.” Further, blacks have a stronger grip, they should have lower rates of disease. Grip strength correlates with a myriad of diseases. This is well established in the literature. Hand grip strength is not related to full body strength. Get a clue here. Go back to arguing about something else. Anything but this.
A few more things. Blacks also had “lower muscle quality”, high levels of lean mass observed among black and ‘Hispanic’ populations compared with white men “but surprisingly, lower levels of physical function among these black and Hispanic men.” On the relevant differences for what matters— like arm lean mass/grip strength—whites are higher than blacks than blacks are higher than whites on overall grip strength.
Higher lean mass, lower physical function. Lower grip after controlling for confounds. Grip strength isn’t a measure of total body strength. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
You don’t understand this research. Please, stick to Oprah and TMZ celeb things. You don’t know what you’re talking about here.
No I’m not. I read the study a few times. I know about it. It’s a part of a questionnaire showing how independent one is.
Again, a composite physical performance score is not the same thing as a strength test. Why is it so hard for you to grasp very simple concepts?
Grip strength is not physical strength.
It’s a type of physical strength. Hence the term grip STRENGTH. Duh! I’ve now provided two studies showing blacks exceed whites on different measures of strength. You’ve done nothing but repeated the term “musle fibre typing” a gazillion times. Santoculto was right. You’re a parrot.
You’re taking the results out of context. The chair test was part of the lower extremity strength assessment.
Oh please. Most of these 400 lb power lifters struggle to get up from a chair and yet according to you, they’re the strongest men on earth. You’re clueless as usual RR.
You don’t understand the paper. Period. If blacks were stronger than they would have lower rates of disease.
What a stupid thing to say.
Hand grip strength isn’t related to total body strength anyway.
No single metric is a comprehensive measure of global strength
“You repeat that term like a mantra. Anyway according to this source (don’t know how accurate it is), fast-twitching muscle fibers are better for strength:”
Correct, but no distinction is made: type IIa are more useful in power lifting and Olympic lifting while type IIx are more useful in more explosive, shorter bouts of competition.
Blacks have more fast twitching muscles in general:
•African Americans have been shown to have as much as 8% less slow-twitch, and 7% more fast-twitch muscle fibres, when sedentary untrained
Now you might argue they don’t have enough of the specific kind of fast twitching muscle used in power lifting, but what you don’t understand is that with each of the two categories (fast vs slow) the muscle types are interchangeable:
Muscles can be converted from one subcategory to another but cannot be converted from one type to another. This means that endurance training can give type 2B muscle some of the fatigue-resistant characteristics of type 2A muscle and that weight training can give type 2A muscle some of strength characteristics of type 2B muscle. Endurance training, however, will not convert type 2 muscle to type 1 nor will strength training convert slow-twitch muscle to fast. Endurance athletes have a greater proportion of slow-twitch fibers, whereas sprinters and jumpers have more of the fast-twitch variety.
Blacks have longer limbs relative to height than whites. Skin fold thickness is lower in blacks in the sites done on the skin fold: the chest, abdomen, and the suprailic site. This would skew body fat readings.
What does any of this have to do with black outperforming whites on the handgrip strength test? Nothing.
The bench press exercise exists in multiple forms including the machine and free weight bench press. It is not clear though how each mode differs in its effect on muscle activation.
No study measures everything RR. The bench press study sampled an important aspect of strength and blacks beat whites. If you think free weight bench pressing would favour whites, than do the study and get it published. Until then you’re just blathering on.
Rohrmann et al 2007 and Richard et al 2014 are much more robust than Ross et al 1986.
Ross is the only one that measured differences in the prime of life which is what’s relevant for physical strength comparisons.
Repeating everything again is meaningless without looking at which nutrients a population is deficient in
The point is what you were fed in childhood only explains less than 7% of the variance in American height.
The point is, you need to look at which nutrients effect height, and which populations are deficient in what nutrients. You did not do that. That matters.
Question. Will someone reach their potential if they are deficient in vitamin D and calcium?
You need to calculate how deficient a population is in vitamin D and the statistically expected effect of said deficiency. It’s probably a lot smaller than you think.
Blacks are, for instance, extremely vitamin D deficient. Blacks are deficient in the main nutrients that are responsible to reach your genetic potential.
How vitamin D deficient are they on average? Unless you can quantify it in standard deviation units, you can’t statistically predict the expected effect on height. If they’re only 1 SD deficient in vitamin D and vitamin D only causally correlates 0.1 with height, then that only explains 1 SD(0.1) = 0.1 SD of their height deficiency.
Here is one paper.
http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/136/4/1126.full
Will provide more later.
Expect a substantial response to this coming in the next few days. A buddy and I are going to sift through the data and figure out exactly what the difference is due to nutrition.
This angle the dems are pushing by flanking Trump from the right about Russia seems unbelievably retarded politically, as nobody will believe the black people worship party are ‘real patriots’ in terms of optics.
It also disillusions many liberals who have IQs over 115 and can read books without pictures.
So the implication is that the angle is a basically the deep state neocons have completely taken over the party and are using it like the Bodysnatchers to destroy populist trump and itself.
The dems are going to be annhilated. They will go extinct. The Bernie wing will break off and be more popular than the neocon wing.
What the fuck does that have to do with nutrition? I don’t mind if conversations evolve naturally, but they should start on topic. At least start that way. And for God’s sake fix your username if you want your comments to pass moderation. [rest of comment redacted by PP, March 13, 2017]
My comments has to do with nutrition.
Russia is stealing our precious bodily fluids.
The russian angle actually is quite comical. I mean, I findit funny to look at the tv news or the papers and see them implying that Trump is a russian spy.
Hahaha. This really is Winston Smith in the Matrix.
“We are at war with oceania now. 5 minutes of hate has been scheduled”.
What kind of retards take this seriously?
The people who took school very seriously. Aspergers people. People who respond well to herding – gays, women, medium IQ, low testosterone. People with an economic incentive in the deep state. People with no general knowledge because they’re too busy.
Who is immune? Para schiz, alpha/sigma male, verbal genius, psychopath, people who don’t understand english (no joke, thats why japan has no immigrants, cant be brainwashed).
Jimmy mentioned that I’m “too trusting”. Hahaha.
You have to watch how far you question things Jimmy…Some of the stuff is a leap off the rocks into the deep blue sea.
For example – how much can you trust basic historical knowledge? Who is to say any history book in mass publishing or academia hasn’t be compromised by ((them))). I ask myself this question sometimes. What is left out of modern historical accounts.
A man with no memories is not a man.
Another question might be – how much have you already been unconciously anchored? Do you feel the twinge at typing the word nigger? I do. I’m pretty far along the Schiz curve, and I still feel the twinge of social conditioning…
What else have they done when we were children and couldn’t defend ourselves?
A final rabbit hole.
What if you’ve been conditioned not to believe in certain mystical forces? What if they hid that knowledge to retain power?
Pumpkin has serious anger issues of late. What happened? I can tell you how to handle the particular situation thats bothering you if you mention.
I suspect i know what is ailing you. But its complicated to resolve. In the primary instance you shouldnt care what i or anybody says about you. Secondly we are all different and have weaknesses as well as strengths.
We dont see your strengths day to day and of course people dont mention strengths in these type of forums.
Its remarkable how a thread has been thrown into the gutter like this with personal attacks. Perhaps we need some guidelines on civility. No im not being sarcastic.
I don’t have any anger issues Philosopher. You confuse toughness with fury. I am trying to discipline my commenters so they behave better. You have a problem respecting authority, probably because you didn’t respect your dad. Sad.
Now now pumpkin. I dont attack your family to make a point.
Sorry, I redacted that. I just find you very funny and your backstory adds to the humour. Your childhood would have made a great sitcom.
Dutch people were among the shortest in Europe two centuries ago. And now they are the tallest, equal to Montenegran people, who have been the tallest since ever.
So if the food is not the main factor (and they eat loads of protein there), it means that there was a preference for tall people in the society that made them have more children (and correlatively short people had less children).
The spanish are also the second european to have the fastest growth in eight. And they also have changed their eating habits. So there must be something there unexplained.
The food is the main factor. They grew 8 inches in a 2 gens. The Japanese also grew 13 inches in 100 years. Hmm
Can you unmoderate my response to jimmy and ill go back on topic.
Fine.
*youngest* sorry for the typo
No idea, but I’m in my 30s.