Evidence continues to accumulate showing that the average IQ of Ivy League students is 122. In a previous post, I cited a study showing that a sample of Harvard students tested in 2003 averaged Wechsler IQs of 122 (U.S. white norms); 124 (U.S. norms), and now I’ve analyzed data from another sample of Ivy League students circa 1971.5 who also averaged Wechsler IQs of 122.
In this study, which a commenter informed me of, six samples of seniors from the extremely prestigious Dartmouth (the 12th most selective university in America) averaged 1357 on the pre-1974 SAT, and a full-scale IQ of 127.88 on the WAIS (U.S. white norms); 128.95 (U.S. norms).
However because the WAIS was normed in 1953.5, and the full-scale Flynn effect on the WAIS from 1953.5 to 1978 was 0.306 IQ points per year (U.S. norms)(see page 240 of Are We Getting Smarter?), then WAIS IQs measured in 1971.5 would be inflated by 5.51 points.
This reduces the their IQs from 128.95 to 123.44 (U.S. norms); 122 (U.S. white norms).
How does this compare to their SAT scores? If all American late teens (not just the college bound elite) took the SAT in the 1970s, the average combined score would have been about 770 (see The Bell Curve, pg 422), suggesting 770 equated to IQ 100 (U.S. norms). Meanwhile, Mensa requires SAT scores obtained before 1974 to be at least 1300, suggesting 1300 = IQ 130 (U.S. norms). From these two data points, we might guess that 1357 before 1974 equaled IQ 133 (U.S. norms); 132 (U.S. white norms).
So Dartmouth students, largely selected based on SAT scores, averaged 33 IQ points above the U.S. mean on the SAT, but regressed to 23.44 points above the U.S. mean on the Wechsler. This would seem to imply a 0.7 correlation (23.44/33) between the Wechsler and the pre-1974 SAT.
This is much higher than the 0.53 correlation between the Wechsler and the post-1995 SAT I estimated based on the regression of Harvard students. More research is needed to determine whether this is just chance fluctuation from one study to another, or whether it reflects an actual reduction in the correlation in recent decades. Another possibility is that because the regression slope was estimated from a much higher point in Harvard students, it may simply reflect a reduction in the correlation at higher levels, either because Spearman’s Law of Diminishing Returns strongly exists, or because of ceiling bumping, which should be more acute on the new SAT.
no need for proof peepee.
it’s a NECESSARY consequence of the OBSCENE american admissions procedure.
BUT…
1. the elite students of other countries are MUCH smarter than those of the american ivy league…ox-bridge/u tokyo/tsing hua/École Normale Supérieure/etc.
AND…
2. except for canada…where they’re MUCH dumber…at mcgill, toronto, UBC, etc.
we can be heroes peepee…
if we just stopped LYING…
to ourselves…
and everyone else…
Actually Char, the Oxbridge class are much less intelligence than you think.
The A-levels (Pre-uni UK qualifications) have experienced grade-inflation recently due to previous criticism that they were too hard, this is because of the abandonment of the O-level Qualification that better prepared students for the inferior and less rigorous GCSE. The result is that higher A-level grades are less significant indicators of intelligence.
Further, roughly 50% give or take of Oxbridge students come from independent schools, showing the significance of privilege in the UK education system over intelligence.
I don’t know how it works in Japan or France, I suspect far more objectively, but the UK education system is not much better than the US right now, perhaps even worse!
intelligent*
but contra peepee…
if elite american unis…
had the SAT, ACT, AP exams, CBATs…objective exams…
as their SOLE criterion…
(like almost THE ENTIRE rest of the world)…
then…
their students WOULD average >= 140…
on whatever IQ test peepee cared to give them.
BUT…
contra the prevailing american ideology…
the one group which would most benefit from this…almost universal…but not in america (or canada)…admissions criteria…
would be…
GENTILE WHITES…
and especially white gentiles whose parents aren’t RICH.
not just poor gentile whites…
but middle-class and upper-middle class white gentiles would benefit.
look at shoe’s most recent post…
he TOTALLY ignores this…
FACT.
if anyone should be shipped back to china, it’s professor steve shoe.
totally dis-ingenuous.
totally sociopathic.
neither of his parents were even born in the US, yet he speaks of “our history of race”.
js knows…
america DEPENDS on immigration,
because immigrants are the only people STUPID enough to be sold the american ideology…
the american…
LIE.
What else does the US have besides exams, GPA (which correlate better with college performance than SAT), extracurriculars, and legacy? Are you saying that social skills which correlate to extracurriculars don’t matter at all in the real world?
of course shoe is the typical chinaman.
he imagines that “if only” harvard were 100% chinese…
then…
china people would rule america.
ignoring that in such case harvard would NO LONGER be harvard OR even american.
while, at the same time…
admitting his own chinese supremacism.
shoe is DISGUSTING.
yet more proof that professors are SOCIOPATHS…
people incapable of discerning the difference between “in-appropriate” and EVIL,
between social norms, mores, and conventions and GOOD and EVIL.
but very sadly for the human race…
this is 99% of people.
likely he smells like POOP, no matter how many showers or bathes.
the very thought of him makes me wretch.
You have to admit, though, that he is a superstar when it comes to cognitive genomics. People listen when he talks about we’ll be CRISPR’ing up embryos for high intelligence in the future, and more to the point, he’s right about that.
He’s truly the real egalitarian, with genetic engineering blacks will be able to finally have a competent level IQ.
I am a student at a prestigious west coast university. I got an 800 on my verbal SAT, can you estimate my IQ?
Based on this estimation, can you give me tips on how to be successful as an introvert. I am thinking about a career in law, what are you thoughts on this?
An 800 on the new verbal SAT is supposedly equivalent to a 730 on the pre-1995 SAT, which equates to an IQ of 152 (U.S. norms) and also 152 (U.S. white norms).
Of course I only know about your verbal SAT precisely because you did well on it, so you would likely regress precipitously to the mean on a random intelligence test, just like the average Ivy student.
I would guess that with such high verbal ability and prestigious education, you could get into a good law school, but if you’re an introvert, you might not be motivated to win clients.
I actually think I might be among those who will not “regress precipitously” to the mean. I got my score without preparation and despite the fact that I did not grow up speaking English in my low income home. This is in comparison to many of my peers here at my college who grew up in affluent, English-speaking households and had the benefit of extensive preparation for the test. I am not contesting their intelligence, but I am saying that their SAT scores might have been enhanced by the privileges they had growing up.
That said, an IQ of 152 seems way high. But then again I don’t really understand the difference between someone with an IQ of 130 and someone with an IQ of 152. Do you know of any credible sources that detail the different characteristics of high IQ individuals?
With regards to my introversion, I don’t think it will trouble me professionally. I am good at public speaking and have an ability to appear commanding and knowledgable in professional settings. This will help me win clients and receive promotions (perhaps I am being too idealistic here?). But I do think my introversion, and relatively high IQ, will hurt me socially. I dislike talking about sports, television shows, and the other mindless shit that the vast majority of people love to talk about. This had made connecting with other people difficult because I am not one to fake interests.
I’m new to this site so maybe this has been covered before, but what is the basis for this assertion: “Of course I only know about your verbal SAT precisely because you did well on it, so you would likely regress precipitously to the mean on a random intelligence test, just like the average Ivy student.”?
Irving as i explained in the post, Ivy League students score the equivalent to IQ 130s-140s on the SAT but 122 on the Wechsler; at least in 2 studies
>as i explained in the post, Ivy League students score the equivalent to IQ 130s-140s on the SAT but 122 on the Wechsler; at least in 2 studies
I understand this. What I was perplexed by, however, was the assertion that because you knew Joe’s SAT score “precisely because he did well on it”, that must mean that on a different test he would probably “regress precipitously to the mean”. Does this mean that the results of his SAT score would be more reliable if he never shared the results with you?
Well self-reported scores tend to be high outliers, so if his score wasn’t self-reported, it would be less likely to be a high outlier
I got an 800 verbal and I’m also an introvert, which is kind of unfortunate because if I were an extrovert, I would probably be extremely rich and famous like pp by now.
But I’m in a new city and new environment now so maybe I’ll finally reap my just rewards
😁💵💵💵💰💰💰💰
Actually, nevermind pp is not that rich 😒
and btw peepee i have voted a straight GOP ticket in the past.
i voted for W, bush ii…the first time.
but i voted for nader TWICE iirc.
anyway…
the typical division of GOP vs dems is a FALSE distinction in america-stan.
BUT it serves the powerful…
so it continues.
the typical division of GOP vs dems is a FALSE distinction in america-stan.
BUT it serves the powerful…
so it continues.
Correct.
I liked it when Anatoly Karlin said it’s not right vs. Left, but rather nationalists vs.globalists.
but if peep were so smart she should give me investment advise.
i’ve lost 4% since october.
come on peepee…
The key is to wait for a day where the headline is “stocks hit their lowest point in over a year” because of some random catastrophe, and then buy a diverse sample of normally well performing stocks.
there’s some bizarre stockholm syndrome going on for the whole world…
not just canada…
every single fucking currency has fallen vs the USD by…
A LOT!!!
wtf is going on?
seriously.
i do NOT understand it.
of course peepee could quit whatever job she has and get disgustingly rich if she could only answer…
ECONOMIC…
questions.
Yea pp, if income is the most Darwinian correlate of IQ, then why aren’t you rich?
And I think health is the second strongest correlate, so you must be really healthy.
Because my IQ is “only” 135 which while incredibly high, is not enough to get rich unless you are also super lucky, super hardworking,super evil, super talented, super good looking, or super educated. There’s too much competition from people who have all of those traits
Clearly, the world is not just because me and pp aren’t rich.
So chartreuse, why is the USD so overvalued? Because it’s evil?
so swank and i both ridiculed peepee for her DEVOTION to the just world phenomenon, her UTTER possession by it…
yet…
how can peepee explain the CAD’s ABSURD depreciation vs the USD?
ABSURD!
it’s not as if canada has hyper-inflation.
but over the last 5 years the CAD has fallen by 31% to the USD.
and it’s not just the CAD…btw…
a list of currencies which have fallen by A LOT over the last 5 years…
it’s EVERY fucking major currency except the CNY and the CHF…and thry’re just even with the USD…
EUR, GBP, AUD, JPY, BRL, CAD, NOK, SGD, KRW, TWD, Etc.
W?
T?
F?
—————————
IT’S NOT THE VIRTUE OF AMERICA PEEPEE.
AMERICA HAS A HUGE TRADE DEFICIT AND IS A NET CAPITAL IMPORTER.
IN A WORD.
IT’S SHIT.
SO WHY IS THE USD SO DEAR?
RIDDLE ME THAT!
Charles Murray says that only people above 120 should attend universities.
From the distribution of Ivy league universities and the attendance of other universities and the fact that 10 percent of people are at 120 IQ. What make it likely that people with IQ 122 attend Ivy league schools?
From my knowledge some people prefer non Ivy league schools for their programs. And people above 130 choose to make money instead of go to universities. Chris Langan choose not to attend an Ivy league school for his own reasons. So could it be that people bellow 122 and people above 122 decide it is not right for them?
If you have average score at 122. At Hartford and Dartmouth. What happens when you separate the science and technology degrees from the Law degrees and psychology degrees. (liberal arts)
Note: Kurt Godel and Einstein lived at Princeton University.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_Conferences
Stanford A.I. Lab
MIT A.I. Lab
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence_Laboratory
I would like to know what you think about Von Neumanns IQ.
He had eidetic visual memory and most likely eidetic verbal memory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann
What is the IQ of Professors compared to Student?
Long term University professor with One Phds
Long term University professors with multiple Phds
Ray Kurzweil has 20 Phds and attended MIT
http://www.kurzweilai.net/ray-kurzweil-biography
moral IQ at least 30 points less than his or her students.
it’s time for peepee to get raped in the rectum.
This was my favorite book at age 17.
Lol cmon chartreuse…
I think Murray’s estimate from the 1990s was quite outdated even when he made it. Recent norming data from the WAIS-IV shows that the average IQ of a college graduate is 110.7. This is probably due to continuous re-norming from decades of IQ tests responding to the Flynn effect. Assuming that college work has not changed all that much in difficulty (which may be false) we can say that the last time the average university graduate IQ was 120 was about 30 years ago, probably more because the Flynn effect has been less in recent decades. And this is just the average IQ of the college graduate. The average IQ of college students (the bottom half or so may be said to represent a population that shouldn’t be there in the first place) is 102, or 112 30+ years ago. Also, Murray is a kind of sloppy IMHO… probably not the best source for data.
You can calculate the estimated IQ of different majors by using this average GRE by major data: https://www.ets.org/s/gre/pdf/gre_guide_table4.pdf
You can estimate that the average GRE taker is somewhere in between 111 and 115, and then extrapolate IQs by looking at the percentile of each.
For example, assume the average GRE taker has an IQ of 112. You can see from the data that the average physics and astronomy major has the highest combined GRE of 317, while the average education major (and the total average for all GRE takers) is 300. The standard deviation of the combined GRE is about 13, so physicists score about 1.3 std dev above the average. 1.3 std dev above the hypothetical average IQ of 112 is 131.5. You would probably want to regress that to the mean several points because GRE and IQ only correlate at a .7 level or so, so you could guess that the average astronomy and physics major GRE taker is maybe 125 IQ or so.
The psychology major is at about 113 by this method, and among the humanities, philosophy does the best with an IQ of around 121. They also have the highest average writing score.
The total average for the physical science is 119, and the lowest, social work, is 108.
I don’t think the average IQ of college grads has ever been 120, maybe 115.
Charles Murray does grant that perhaps IQs as low as 110 can handle college level material.
Also, you might want to control for selection bias since the GRE is similar to the type of test that would have gotten them accepted into college in the first place, so take off another few points.
Chris Langan is a creep.
A creep?
go back to china peepee…or india…
whatever shit hole your parents are from.
You’re from India
You think Chartreuse is Indian? I’d love to hear that theory, seeing as according to Chartreuse I am:
Non-white
Non-male
Non-straight
Non-intelligent
Non-moral
Usually people just pick one line of attack and go with it, but not him.
don’t forget you’re also non gender-binary to him.
I think I explained my theory before, but I was thinking that chartreuse was an Indian Race Troll who became obsessed with elite status in America and began pretending he was descended from the Mayflower.
Other than that, I have no good evidence that chartreuse is Indian or even foreign…
I’m more interested in the IQ of students from places like Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, Purdue, etc. in other words, less prestigious schools with really smart (STEM) students. im guessing they’re just as smart as Harvard students, just prolier/more foreign.
That is utterly fascinating, I’ve been interested in the status of tech unis myself.
One of my aspirations is to see more opportunities for bright people to attend higher education at reasonable prices locally, more parity would be better for the workplace; it’d be nice if we could get a strong look at how far we’re moving towards this end.
Thanks for raising the idea!
Yo, meticulous as usual Pump.
This is forming a clearer and clearer picture of the intelligence of those considered academically elite.
An interesting suggestion if possible: Would it be possible to estimate the IQ of students at the most selective college/s (Harvard, MIT, Caltech etc) based on this result? That is to say, extrapolate estimates based on this result and it being the 12th most selective uni. You might be able to figure out a result for Harvard and corroborate it with previous data (The 122 IQ figure)
Well done!
Yes, I’ll do a post on that soon. That’s an easy thing to do
Why not just use a simple out of sample test: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1190895-mean-lsat-score-by-undergraduate-college.html
Average LSAT at harvard is ~166, which is the 93.2%, which I would guess equals an IQ of about 130.
Not sure how reliable those claims are, though.
The lsat tells you the average lsat score from your undergraduate institution after you take the test. I can corroborate at least my institution on that list. This is the best data pp is going to ever get.
It is useful data, but the question we have is “how much do Ivy League students, largely selected based on college admission tests, regress to the mean on official IQ tests?” Showing how much they regress on another college admission test (though admittedly not the one they were selected on) does not entirely answer that, but it’s a start.
Agreed, you should do a post on it.
Seems to me the idea is to see how many S.D. from the norm Ivy League students are out of sample. This is a great out of sample dataset, and there are a few years where forum posters got people to publicize what LSAC told them the average LSAT score was by score, so you can also remove some of the potentially erroneous data.
I do plan to do more posts on Ivy League IQ, so the LSAT scores will get mentioned, at least in passing.