I came across this quote from man-o-sphere blogger heartiste (hat-tip to Darklock):
Many want to believe that getting girls is ancillary to being a true alpha male; that the real measure of an alpha lies in his ability to dominate other men, or his command of his environment, or his thirst for swashbuckling adventure. While these are admirable alpha traits, they are nothing but a means to an end. Make no mistake, at the most fundamental level the CRUX of a man’s worth is measured by his desirability to women, whether he chooses to play the game or not. Pussy is the holy grail. That is why the obese, socially maladroit nerdboy who manages to unlock the gate to the secret garden and bang a 10 regularly is an alpha male. And that is also why the rich, charming entrepreneur who because of an emotional deficiency or mental sickness lives mired in parched celibacy is not an alpha male.
Why is desirability to women the measure of a man’s worth? Isn’t giving women the power to decide a man’s worth itself beta? Perhaps he means that sexually desirable men have the ability to be evolutionary winners (pass on the most genes) should they play that game, and the ability to win at evolution is his definition of “alpha”, but even by that definition, sexually desirable men are not the most alpha. The real alpha would be a billionaire who could just pay endless hot women to have sex with him, and if he were really evil, pay his bodyguards to force them to have sex with him if they couldn’t be bought. Or skip sex and just pay for your sperm to impregnate many women. No sexual desirability required.
So it seems by this standard, the most alpha man in the World is probably Bill Gates, who at his peak was worth $100 billion, and so had there been a race to get the most women pregnant, he would have won by virtue of all the people he could hire to distribute his sperm.
But of course the man-o-sphere would never admit that some computer nerd is the king of the alphas because that’s just not the kind of guy they worship. So if they prefer to define an alpha male as just a guy women find sexy then the most alpha would be the latest studly movie star, but if the measure is the ability to pass on genes, then it’s whoever has the most money, because they can not only afford to spread their own sperm in droves, but pay to save the lives of anyone who shares copies of their genes, and prevent the breeding of those who don’t.
Pumpkin Person 
Seems that both heartiste and Pumpkin P are playing with different concepts of what is alpha male.
Alpha male’s defintion is not path-dependent, but objective IMO.
–In aminal kingdom, alpha males are the ones with top physiques. End of.
–In HBD world, alpha males are the ones most likely with the highest IQ.
–In human world, alpha males are the ones with the best IQ (human angle) + physiques (animal angle) + appearance (human angle) + character (human angle) combo. Now here come troubles:
Heartiste’s problem is that he assumes that the banging the most # of “holy grail” is the measure of alpha male, yet he’s forgotten that in human world women somehow value vastly more on character – which more or less is the trait that can “make women laugh” – sounds silly but true. Considering that the males who are most successful in making most women laugh hence having access to the most # of “holy grail” are, by default, with average IQ, heartise’s implied definition of alpha male is actually “the ones with average IQ but top characters” – obviously a disaster to the human race development and HBD world.
Pumpkin P’s definition of alpha male focusing on money, however, is also lacking, since Pumpkin assumes money and IQ have a perfect correlation which is not. Even assuming they have, In the real world top IQers with top money (Heartiste’s “rich, charming entrepreneurs” or your Bill Gates) have much less offsprings than some average Joes. Theoritically they can have much more, but in reality much less because it is not the way how Mother Nature operates in human world.
Panda’s Law 1 : Mother Nature eliminates both the dumbest IQ and the smartest IQ males by and large, but focusing on the middle of the IQ bell curve. (This is in line with Darwinsm . watch out here: “the fittest” does not neccesarily mean “the best”. In most case they are not. e.g. The fittest molecular biologists today working as the deans of uni ($$) or column writers for NYT($$), yet the best molecular biologist get Watsoned)
Panda’s Law 2. Mother Nature’s favourate human selection criterion of “alpha” male is “popular character” , followed by $$$(some IQ factor here, but not all), appearance, physique and pure IQ (IQ is not prefectly correlated to $; the highest IQers usually take much more risks in life, some of them will succeed while others will fail miserablely), in this order.
e.g. think these:
– most the lowest and the highest IQers have fewer offspring, many none. (not because of they don’t have money, or they are not good-looking, but mainly because for some reasons they usually can’t “make women laugh” which, by default, requires average IQ )
– most “charismatic” CEOs ($$$?) have actually only slightly above-average IQ.
– most Don Juans or movies stars or celebs have either average or slightly-above avg IQ. It is this group with arguablely have the highest # of access to the “Holy Grail”.
One of the common themes within the HBD world is that there is no drawback to having a higher IQ. HIgher IQ means greater ability at everything (maybe with the exception of a few narrow areas, like navigation ability and ability to read facial expressions and body language). This would mean, in theory, high IQ men should find getting pussy easier than low IQ men. Geoffrey Miller has also argued that intelligence was largely driven by sexual selection, not natural selection (survivability).
However, as you’ve suggested here, pretty much everyone in the real world knows that’s not how it works. Higher IQ people (particularly those in the genius range above 140) find it difficult to relate to average people. Additionally, as was discussed in a previous post, high IQ appears to be associated with lower testosterone, with some genes for IQ seeming to lower testosterone levels. Most high IQ men I know seem less interested in sex than average men, but even the ones who are motivated to approach women seem less successful than average intelligence men, with the exception of a few I know who make shit-tons of money or who just have an asshole/dominating personality. The average intelligence men I know seem to get laid fairly regularly, while the geniuses mostly look on from the sidelines while studying for their molecular biology exam.
“Geoffrey Miller has also argued that intelligence was largely driven by sexual selection, not natural selection (survivability).”
I don’t agree with Miller.
It is more logical to say that natural selection (survivability) drives intelligence, simplely because by definition Mother Nature means only 1 thing that is survivability, and intelligence merely being a (forced) result of it, not neccesarily the only result nor THE result. e.g. extreme cold weather selects both intelligence and socialbility. It’s hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg.
Sexual selection, however, is a maintainer of intelligence at its max. rather than the driver in human world, because human beings have 1 luxury(?) that animals don’t have, that is mind. Humans can voluntarily give up both sexual selection and survivability for the cause of the confort of the mind (e.g. suicide). More to the point, when the humans develop till the stage that survivability is no longer the biggest issue, sexual selecion becomes by and large a form of mind-related entertainment – which, in most cases, has jack to do with drivng the intelligence.
Geoffrey Miller has also argued that intelligence was largely driven by sexual selection, not natural selection (survivability).
I hate his theory. The stereotype is that high IQ men are nerds, which implies high IQ evolved despite being a sexual liability not because women like high IQ men.
Also, if sexual selection were important, you’d expect blacks to have higher IQs than whites and East Asians since up North, selection was based on survival while in Africa selection was based on reproduction (r/K theory)
I think only major the role sexual selection played is women wanted men with resources and power because they were better providers, and wealth and status correlate (to some degree) with IQ, but that really comes down to selection for survival indirectly.
Pumpkin P’s definition of alpha male focusing on money, however, is also lacking, since Pumpkin assumes money and IQ have a perfect correlation which is not.
I assume IQ and money have a correlation of 0.4. Very far from perfect which would be 1.0
Heuristic: Those who veer far from the average phenotype are apt to have novel mutations. Novel mutations are almost always bad. There’s many ways to break something but only a few ways to improve it.
Women seem to strongly discriminate against freaks, including IQ freaks.
I think the problem comes down to the fact that alpha-ness, in theory, is determined by two separate factors: survival capabilities, and reproductive capabilities. Men go out into the world and earn income to survive. Once they have enough to survive, they spend whatever have left over on conspicuous consumption- which isn’t necessary to survive, but helps attract women. (speaking of which, reading Mr. Evolving Economics’ paper on conspicuous consumption. Also read Geoffrey Miller. Conspicuous consumption is a major driver of economic growth in developing nations.) In developing countries, the wealthiest man is the king, because he can easily get more pussy than any man starving to death on the streets.
The problem with this theory is that in modern economies, it’s not necessary to earn a shit-ton of money to get a shit-ton of pussy. Women can earn their own dough and control their own lives, so they like traits other than money-earning capabilities in men. On top of that, the men who do make shit-tons of money, like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, don’t use it get tons of pussy. Perhaps because the traits required to make a shit-ton of money in the modern economy contradict the traits that motivate one to get laid. So if one defines alpha as survival and reproductive capabilities, the guido down the street from me is more alpha than Bill Gates because in modern times, it doesn’t take much ability to survive (this may change in the near future in a totally automated economy), and women reward him with sex regardless of how much he makes. Even though Bill Gates can still conspicuously consume more, Mr. Guido makes enough money in the modern economy to impress the ladies with flashy rims on his car and steroids to inflate his muscles. Also, Mr. Guido has more time to seek out sex. Unless Bill Gates actually chooses to use his money to inseminate hundreds of women, he is less alpha than Mr. Guido. However, in a terrible developing country, Bill Gates may be the alpha, if only because he might be the only one with enough money to support his bitches…I mean, women, and he can conspicuously consume way more.
Another problem with alpha/beta theory is that even men like Mr. Guido who have lots of sex don’t necessarily have more children because of contraception. But his potential to have a bunch of kids makes him alpha (arguably).
Yes the whole alpha/beta concept seems very contradictory. Perhaps they could define an alpha as the type of men who did pass the most genes in prehistoric times, but even then, it was the nerdy guy, because humans have become nerdier and nerdier over the past couple million years, implying evolution favored nerdiness for its survival value
Genghis Khan was not nerdy.
Yes but you have to see the whole picture, idiot.
Westerners, to use the slur from Nietzsche, still have Christian blood.
Bill Gates acts like a Christian despite being an atheist.
One day Nietzscheanism will sink in, and it will become highly unpleasant to be a human unless you’re at the apex of the social pyramid.
corretion – Panda’s Law 2. Mother Nature’s favourate human selection criterion of “alpha” male is “popular character” , followed by $$$(some IQ factor here, but not all), appearance, physique and pure IQ (IQ is not perfectly or even very highly correlated to $; the highest IQers usually take much more risks in life, some lucky few of them will succeed while the majority will fail miserablely), in this order.
I think I am one of the most alpha man because I have 678 children given the fact that I make donation of my semen since my 18.
The most alpha of men are those, who rant about the inane concept of Alpha!
Alpha Men of the Blogosphere.
WTH ARE YOU INSULTING MY PEOPLE MY RACE MY LIFE MY HEART ?????!!!!!!
It’s not just “spreading genes.” It’s spreading genes to the most desirable women. The most desirable women have many men offering them fantastic resources in exchange for sex and therefore can afford to choose men based on other reasons. The most desirable women have many men who want them and who will fight to protect them.
Bill Gates, despite all his billions, has a plain wife, which casts a lot of doubt on what you say. Star athletes, on the other hand, are much less wealthy but marry beautiful women.
If you buy into the alpha/beta silliness, that is. Reality is much simpler. Look good, don’t look bad. If whenever you go out at least one woman doesn’t give you the once over, you’re doing something wrong.
It’s not just “spreading genes.” It’s spreading genes to the most desirable women. The most desirable women have many men offering them fantastic resources
But not the kind of resources Bill Gates can offer: a private jet, a private island, a $100 mansion overlooking the ocean and the mountains, a personal chef, the ability to buy politicians, the ability to buy cable networks & newspapers to spread her opinions, the ability to buy research labs to satisfy her curiosity on unresearched topics, fame, celebrity, status, superior health care, permanent cosmetic youth, Not even the most desirable women are lucky enough to be offered anything close to all that.
And if they choose to turn all that down, an evil billionaire has enough money to physically force them to have sex with him via hired goons. So sadly, the most desired women must submit to the richest men on command, either through bribes or force.
Bill Gates, despite all his billions, has a plain wife, which casts a lot of doubt on what you say.
Because he loves her. Super high IQ men probably have different taste in women.
Not even the most desirable women are lucky enough to be offered anything close to all that.
Diminishing returns. If the choice is between a private jet without the island and an attractive man vs private island and jet with Bill Gates, the woman isn’t going to choose Bill Gates.
evil billionaire has enough money to physically force them to have sex with him via hired goons
That all depends on how loyal the goons are to the billionaire and whether the woman doesn’t have other men in her life who are strong and willing to protect her (they usually do). If the goons can all just beat up the billionaire and take his money then guess what will happen?
Because he loves her. Super high IQ men probably have different taste in women.
It’s all evolution except for when it isn’t. They don’t have “different taste,” they just end up with the best woman they can get.
Richard Feynman had cute wives.
“super high IQ”
Oh do HBDers accept that now? In my experience, they have rejected that figure simply because Feynman was an eminent physicist.
May be I am not one of them.
[ It’s all evolution except for when it isn’t. They don’t have “different taste,” they just end up with the best woman they can get. ]
Bill Gates has super high IQ? The guy seemed just got lucky.
No, super high IQers does have different perspectives. Here is Panda’s case;
As a super high IQer, Panda finds multiple things are so critically irresistible in my life that from time time they just overwelme the natural sense of sexual selection and soemtimes survivalbility:
1. extraordinary levels of self-drive and energy level make Panda feel, rightly or wrongly, that I will be young forever and I am invincible on basically ANYTHING as long as I want to dedicate my energy into. These determine that if I fail, I would always be confident enough to have a good chance to rise again; and If I don’t have time for serious sexual selection now I will always have a good chance to get tons of it later anytime to make up for what I’ve lost. Naive? but the thought somehow stays resolutely in my mind like a religion.
2. ability to put an extraodinary level of concentration for ridiculous amount of time (not hours or days, but years!) on what I am zealouly doing makes Panda constantly trying to find the right balance of energy distribution in a seemingly zero-sum struggle between what I do and sexual selection game(survivalbility whatever), because a break or make of an extraodinary work always praying for the last drop of energy available for a day, use of which on anyting else usually makes Panda feel profoundly guilty. And yes, there are indeed things in what Panda does that are 100X more exciting and stimulating to brain and to mind than sex, drugs & rock & roll, and that is not bamboo-munching I can assure you.
3. extraodinary level of responsibility also urges Panda to delay sexual selection as late as possible, because wife means children, both of whom mean a HUGE and irreversible dedication level that would definitely affect what I am doing by demanding of the last drops of energy which I am so hesitant to share.
Don’t get Panda wrong, Panda is far from your “nerdy” stereotype. LoL. Actually not very long ago Panda just led this thousand-men annual dance parade in a huge-arse European city, I mean full-body tatooed going full-on heavy metal , electro, house, trance, tecno you name it, along the main city streets with countless half-naked blonde chicks, macho “alpha” – “beta” – “gamma” – males-look-alikes, speculators, and half-a-dozen programming camera crew following my moves on a live broadcasting TV.
One thing that HBDers and anyone on the subject of black criminality has fail to elaborate. It’s not only socioeconomic status, lack of father figures or discrimination that causes black men to go on a rampage. The lack of female companionship is one of the most important point that people leave out. A lot of lower status black men don’t have a woman in their life. A lack of sex for a demographic disposed to aggression and high testosterone is lighting a fuse. They are no different from those White and Asiatic loners who shoot up a group of people.
One day sociologists will find that ubiquitous porn has done more to stem crime than any other factor.
“Diminishing returns. If the choice is between a private jet without the island and an attractive man vs private island and jet with Bill Gates, the woman isn’t going to choose Bill Gates.” You dont know nothing about woman.
Mammalian males fight and the winner gets to have sex with the females. Women don’t chose; we’re not birds, for chrissake.
Heartiste has how many children? Wolf biologists would regard him as a lowly leg-humper, not an alpha.
Actually, “women choosing” explains why humans, as compared to many other animals, have such low sexual dimorphism. The male-male competition idea isn’t supported by this.
It’s about looking good and getting picked, with some small room for “resources.”
I used to think this until I did some consulting work in Texas.
Several nights I went out drinking with someone I was working with there–a really quite repulsive looking dude who was built like a gorilla.
His manner of getting the best looking women in the bar? He simply walked up to whatever male they were with and said he’d fight them for their girlfriend. He knocked out all of them. And never–NEVER!–did the women recoil in shock. They ALL went home with him to have sex. I would have never believed it. It certainly ran counter to everything I ever read online about getting women. Perhaps our acculturation is a thin veneer over deep mammalian instincts.
Several nights I went out drinking with someone I was working with there–a really quite repulsive looking dude who was built like a gorilla.
Built like a gorilla? Some women are probably attracted to men with very muscular builds.
Actually, “women choosing” explains why humans, as compared to many other animals, have such low sexual dimorphism.
Vacuous comment. You neglect to mention that humans also have high sexual dimorphism compared to many other animals.
Oh please, it’s well-accepted that humans are more on the low end. And the fact that it steadily decreased during hominid evolution casts doubt on the male fighting narrative.
there–a really quite repulsive looking dude who was built like a gorilla.
Repulsive to whom? You, a man?.
And all the men just agreed to fight with some stranger for their girlfriends? There wasn’t a bouncer in the bar to stop the fighting?
Doesn’t pass the smell test.
He was described by many as “scary looking.” He had a long scar on his left cheek, and it was obvious that his nose had been broken at least once.
He didn’t ask for permission. He did it so that it’d be a fair fight rather than a sucker-punch.
Texans are, uh, different than the rest of Americans. lol They seem to be more primed for this sort of behavior.
Yeah that story’s highly unlikely. If I went and knocked out some skinnier, weaker guy right now, there’s less than a 1% chance that his girl is then going to fuck me. The vast majority of girls will just think you’re an aggressive mental case who has problems getting laid the way normal people do.
The world’s most alpha male and all he can get is that uggo Melinda Gates who forces him to spend all his wealth on Africa?
Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs both best Gates, as they married hotties and didn’t blow their wealth trying to impress stupid people.