For years commenter Mugabe has complained that studies of identical twins reared apart are meaningless because the identical twins are typically separated within the same country (i.e. America) so when two separated twins raised apart both have a high IQ, it doesn’t necessarily mean they have “high IQ genes”, it could just mean that they have genes that reach their full potential in America and Americans who are dumber than them, may have been smarter than them, had they been reared in China. In other words, the intellectual rank order of people with different genotypes might change depending on what country they are in, a concept known as norm crossing.
To solve this problem, Mugabe has suggested doing a study on identical twins raised apart in many different countries, but the problem with that is when you increase the amount of environmental variation in a sample, and hold the amount of genetic variation constant, you end up with a ridiculously high correlation with environment (and thus low heritability), even if no norm crossing occurs. This is known as the extended range problem (the opposite of the range restriction problem frequently encountered in IQ studies).
An idea that would correct for this, and one Mugabe has suggested many times, would be to convert IQ to Z scores relative to the country one was raised in, but this would only make sense if you could control for the genetic variation that exists between countries allowing the Z score to reflect only how smart one is relative to environment, and not how smart one is relative to the gene pool of the particular country.
An idea I had for doing this is instead of calculating Z scores relative to the population of the entire country, calculate Z scores relative to only the non-immigrant “pure” West African population of the country. West Africans are an ideal international genetic reference group because not only do they live in many Third World countries, but they involuntarily migrated to other kinds of countries so you don’t have anywhere near the selective migration problem that occurs when other races live on multiple continents, as long as you exclude recent voluntary West African migrants.
So all that’s needed to do this study is a campaign to recruit 50+ pairs of identical twins (of any race) each raised from birth to age 40+ on different continents (or islands) in countries with a large enough involuntary “pure” West African population to use as a reference group for each participant’s Z score.
Of course the Z score correlation between these identical twins raised apart would still overestimate heritability because even identical twins raised on different continents shared the same prenatal environment. How do we subtract the effects of shared prenatal environment?
An idea I had would be to do a separate study on the Z score correlation between half-siblings adopted and raised from birth on different continents [update March 30/15: with biological parents living on different continents] where some of the half-siblings shared the same unknown biological father and others shared the same unknown biological mother. The difference in correlation between the two types of half-siblings would provide an estimate for the effect of prenatal environment.
but the problem with that is when you increase the amount of environmental variation in a sample, and hold the amount of genetic variation constant, you end up with a ridiculously high correlation with environment (and thus low heritability), even if no norm crossing occurs. This is known as the extended range problem (the opposite of the range restriction problem frequently encountered in IQ studies).
wrong you fucking retard.
have you even taken a math class since kindergarten?
You are genetically incapable of understanding conceptual math
You don’t understand your own theory, because you can’t
conceptual math?
is that math for black lesbians?
but this would only make sense if you could control for the genetic variation that exists between countries allowing the Z score to reflect only how smart one is relative to environment, and not how smart one is relative to the gene pool of the particular country
wrong.
The difference in correlation between the two types of half-siblings would provide an estimate for the effect of prenatal environment.
no it wouldn’t.
I think it might if the biological parents lived on different continents, which I should have added
absolutely nothing to do with it fucktard.
by the P = G + E model the nature of the variation in E is totally irrelevant. all that matters is the total variance.
if the same within country h^2’s are found then intracountry h^2 WILL BE IDENTICAL if the P = G + E model is right…which it isn’t.
the variance in G is also irrelevant because it’s IDENTICAL for each set of cotwins wherever they’re raised and live.
but it would be a good idea to include MZ twins of all the races and varities of man.
U R BRUCE JENNER’S VAGINA.
by design G and E are uncorrelated.
so h^2 = var(G)/(var(G) + var(E))
by design all the var(G)s are IDENTICAL.
so as long as the var(E)s are identical the nature of the variation is IRRELEVANT and you get the same h^2s in EACH country and BETWEEN countries.
that is h^2 = correl(G + E1, G + E2) = correl(G + E1, G + E1) = correl(G + E2, G + E2)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and as i’ve already mentiuoned that one country may have a uniformly shittier environment doesn’t matter because:
correl(X,Y + a constant) = correlation(X, Y).
here the constant could be the difference in overall shittiness between the environment variables E1 and E2 of two countries.
so if Norway’s E had a mean of 0, then Rwanda’s might have a mean of -3 SDs or whatever.
now suppose that the var(E)s aren’t the same. suppose var(E1) > var(E2).
then what will the inter-country h^2 be vs the intra-country h^2?
the numerator is still just var(G), because covariance(X,Y) = 0 if two variables are independent as are E1 and E2 by construction even though the vars aren’t equal.
and the denominator? the demoninator is less than that of country 1 and greater than that of country 2.
SO THE INTER-COUNTRY h^2 VALUE WILL FALL BETWEEN THE TWO INTRA-COUNTRY h^2 VALUES.
maybe if you drank more you could understand these things.
if the same within country h^2’s are found then intracountry h^2 WILL BE IDENTICAL if the P = G + E model is right…which it isn’t.
You seem to be assuming a study where all the twins in country A are on the X axis and all their cotwins in country B are on the Y axis. In that case, yes, the correlation of separated twins within countries should be the same as between
But in reality internationally separated twins will be in a range of countries so there’s not some environmental constant that gets added & thus the international environmental variability will drag down the heritability unless you correct for it using Z scores with reference to some race of people that lives in many kinds of countries (i.e. west Africans )
I’M NOT ASSUMING ANYTHING FUCKTARD.
GO BACK AND READ WHAT I WROTE ABOUT EXACTLY THAT IN THE LAST POST.
YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW h^2 IS CALCULATED.
I QUOTE MYSELF IN A POST TO WHICH YOU RERSPONDED! FROM JUST A DAY AGO!
if the P = G + E model is followed, it shouldn’t matter as long as the within country variance is about the same. but obviously comparing a big heterogeneous country like the US to say Manaco would result in an h^2 which was less than Monaco’s.
it’s never mentioned but h^2 can be increased or decreased simply by rearranging which twins’ scores are assigned to x and which to y.
so it isn’t even clear that a global h^2 can be defined unambiguously. all that can be done perhaps is compare pairs of countries with one twin in each and give a range for h^2.
NOT ONLY ARE YOU RETARDED. BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO MEMORY.
if you want the global h^2 then just scatter the twins randomly around the entire world.
then you have G + E for one twin and G + E for the other where E is the GLOBAL E variable.
that some countries are shitty MAKES ABDSOLUTELY ZERO DIFFERENCE. but if you wanted to get a higher h^2 then just segregate the twins into shitty and non-shitty. but if it were done CORRECTLY some cotwins would BOTH be assigned to shitty countries and some cotwins would BOTH be assigned to non-shitty countries.
UH DRRRRRRRR!!!
Of course I remember that comment. And h^2 is simply the correlation of identical twins raised apart in random locations (typically within a given country).
My only point is that a low global h^2 (i.e. identical twins raised apart in random places anywhere on earth) does not debunk the P = G + E model unless the low global h^2 is found even after IQs have been converted into country specufic Z scores with reference to an international race.
but if you wanted to get a higher h^2 then just segregate the twins into shitty and non-shitty
But I’m now talking about a study that actually could be done. You must take the twins where you find them, thus the only way to get a higher h^2 is to adjust for good & bad countries using z scores
and if you want to estimate global h^2 from the 50 sets of 100 clones assigned all to the same countries, but randomly within those countries then you can do this in two ways using the P = G + E model.
1. randomly choose pairs from each set of 100 clones and find their correlation.
2. calculate the variance in IQ for each set of 100 clones. see if they’re all similar or average them then divide by the globale variance in IQ.
My only point is that…
AND YOUR POINT IS WRONG!!!
but you’re TOO FUCKING RETARDED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.
AND THE STUDY I SUGGESTED COULD BE DONE JUST NOT ETHICALLY. IT’S DONE WITH PLANTS ALL THE TIME.
AND YOU CLAIMED IT WAS BAD ANYWAY.
AND YOU ARE WRONG!!!
THE STUDY I SUGGESTED IS THE GOLD STANDARD. EVERY OTHER STUDY IS ONLY MEANINGFUL TO THE EXTENT IT APPROXIMATES THIS ONE.
IS THERE ANY ENVIRONMENT WHEREIN NORMS TOUCH OR CROSS FOR WHITES AND BLACKS?
THERE IS AND SWANK HAS ALREADY DEMONSTRATED IT.
AS IMMIGRATION BECAME LESS SELECTIVE BLACK AND AFRO-CARIBBEAN PERFORMANCE INCREASED IN THE UK UNTIL IT APPROXIMATED THAT OF WHITES AND PERFORMANCE OF BENGALIS EXCEEDED THAT OF WHITES.
QED!
AND YOUR POINT IS WRONG!!!
but you’re TOO FUCKING RETARDED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.
No, I think it;s just too subtle for you.
AS IMMIGRATION BECAME LESS SELECTIVE BLACK AND AFRO-CARIBBEAN PERFORMANCE INCREASED IN THE UK UNTIL IT APPROXIMATED THAT OF WHITES AND PERFORMANCE OF BENGALIS EXCEEDED THAT OF WHITES.
It’s called assimilation. And the immigrants are EXTREMELY selected as I’ve extensively documented:
https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/01/05/more-thoughts-on-the-high-iqs-of-african-immigrants-in-britain-2/
AND THE STUDY I SUGGESTED COULD BE DONE JUST NOT ETHICALLY. IT’S DONE WITH PLANTS ALL THE TIME.
Well I’m interested in a study that could be done ethically, so that it might actually get done.
too subtle? hardly. i was the one who gave you the idea for using z scores in the first place moron. if you had a memory you’d remmeber that. if you want to limit the E term to developed countries then you’re not getting the global h^2. you’re just getting the developed world h^2.
the question of the influence of genes at the global but not historic level, that is in the contemporary world as a whole is the same as the question…
if there were 100 clones planted in 100 countries, what would be the variance in their P value vs the variance of the P value for the whole world?
say the clones score average in every country for that country. does this correspond to h^2 = 1 at the global level? quite the opposite. i mean why not correct for shitty vs non-shitty environments within countries too? if environments don’t vary at all then all of the variance is genetic by definition.
say each country is equally weighted and evenly spaced over 2.5 SDs. then var(the clones scores) = .53.
suppose each country has SD = 1, then the global var(P) is 1.53.
and h^2 = .35.
YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT h^2 MEANS!
too subtle? hardly. i was the one who gave you the idea for using z scores in the first place moron. if you had a memory you’d remmeber that. if you want to limit the E term to developed countries then you’re not getting the global h^2. you’re just getting the developed world h^2.
Of course I remember that which is why I credited the idea to you in the post, moron. I first remember you mentioning the idea on Steve Hsu’s blog, (perhaps in the context of the BGI study?), but I believe I improved the idea, if I may say so myself, by suggesting the Z scores be calculated in reference to non-immigrant “pure” West Africans, because they are an international gene pool that lives in many countries, and their mean IQ varies enormously depending on the environment of the country.
So a Z score of 0 would reflect the country controlled IQ of the average West African but would equate to an IQ of 80 in the United States, but only 59 in Equatorial Guinea (according to Richard Lynn’s very rough numbers) .
say the clones score average in every country for that country. does this correspond to h^2 = 1 at the global level?
Of course not!
i mean why not correct for shitty vs non-shitty environments within countries too? if environments don’t vary at all then all of the variance is genetic by definition.
The point is we want to know what percentage of IQ variation within countries is caused by independent genetic effects, but if we calculate the heritability within countries, we could be measuring dependent genetic effects, while if we calculate it globally, we’re measuring independent genetic effects, but not at the local level.
Thus the solution seems to be to measure global heritability, and then remove the between country variation.
pp is hopelessly confused, butyou made a typo Bob.
h^2 = 1 – .35 = .65 in your example.
it’s IMPOSSIBLE to speak of the variance being a sum of independent and dependent effects fucking fucktard. go back and read revolver on occidentalist. but you can’t understand him so you haven’t.
a curved surface is only approximated by a plane within a small region fucking fucktard.
if the intercountry h^2 is not between the within country h^2s THEN…
THERE IS NO INDEPENDENT EFFECT AT ALL!!!
fucking fucktard.
FUCKING FUCKTARD.
you say, “Of course not!”
BUT YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE SAYING.
IN MY LAST EXAMPLE WITH YOUR “CORRECTION” THE RESULT WOULDN’T BE AN h^2 OF .65, IT WOULD BE AN h^2 = 1!!!
I don’t think you have enough g to understand what I’m saying.
Now I know what the Promethean meant when he said the SAT doesn’t measure g above 1400.
Let’s say the within country heritability is 0.8
And let’s say the global heritability is 0.4
If the P = G + E model is 100% correct, then after the Z score correction, the global heritability should go from 0.4 to 0.8
It’s so simple.
I have too little g?
like most morons you don’t know that ypu’re a moron and that you’re clarity is in fact the most irredeemable confusion.
i do have a thoery of pp’s mind. and my theory is CORRECT. my theory is that pp does not have a mind. she confirms my theory with every post.
I have too little g?
Did I stutter? Yes YOU have too little g. You’re utterly baffled by the simplest of logic.
and stupid people think their illogic is logic.
for those incapable of reason, like pp and all other HBDers, here’s my emotional refutation of HBD, but HBDers are emotionally retarded too:
leave the thinking to people with IQs over 45 pp.
It kills you that I’m better at your theory than you are.
It kills you than an HBDer understands all the problems you’ve raised & solved then
It kills you that I’m smarter than you are
U R
DELUSIONAL!!!
One of us is VERY delusional & it isn’t me.
spoken like a true delusional person.
imagine ahistogram for each set of 100 clones.
what you would find…to the extent that P (in this case IQ) is “genetic” and the P = G + E model is right would be what?
what you find is that the 50 histgrams had different means but THE SAME variance (again if P = G + E is correct and the twins were distributed randomly).
so to each genome there would be a distribution of Ps and these distributions would overlap in their tails, BUT only partially.
imagine ahistogram
Dude, you’re just not a math dude.
You’re never gona be able to take a complex equation and solve it.
You’re just not that guy.
You’re an autistic trivia buff and nothing more.
It’s fun to reach high but it’s much better to have realistic goals and go grab em!
dude you even less about math than you know about ASD. you know less than nothing, because what you think you know is all bullshit.
i’m an actuary and made the high score in the country onthe old SoA exam 100 in calculus and linear algebra.
i was a math major and made perfect scores on all the math sections of the college entrance exams…YOU DID NOT.
LIKE I SAID:
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
and even more they think their cognitive BETTERS are dumb.
and besides YOU’RE BLACK. and i’m 100% Western European.
the mathematical presentation has to be child-like or pp won’t understand it.
but even when it is child-like she can’t understand it.
Dude,
You’re too fucking stupid to know who you’re talking to.
I studied physics at Caltech at 16. The exams you cite are a fucking joke.
You have no fucking clue what math is.
All you can do is arithmetic.
And I’m not black, moron. I’m Blasian. You’re too retarded to know the difference.
caltech is the joke and so are you.
my scores were higher than a PhD in math from CALTECH i worked with.
my scores on all the math (and verbal) entrance exams were HIGHER THAN YOURS!
you’re just another stupid black guy.
and you don’t KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
and even more they think their cognitive BETTERS are dumb.
i can’t give the name of course but said PhD from CALTECH IN MATH is now an FCAS and works for Fireman’s Fund.
now fuckoff.
you’re a moron and you have french fries to fry.
I must say it’s an incredible honor to have the Ragin Blasian posting on this blog. You are legendary, buddy!
Many years ago members of Prometheus were planning on making a 400 smartest Americans list (inspired by Forbes 400 richest Americans list) and the consensus was you should be on it.
I was so intrigued I sent you an email but you didn’t respond. I don’t blame you since I wasn’t famous back then.
Ignore Mugabe. He’s a mediocre mind.
Caltech is no joke. The students I’ve had who attended Caltech as undergrads are on average the best prepared, with students from Harvard being the second best.
In academia it’s common knowledge that Harvard is the most prestigious but Caltech is the smartest, but Mugabe wouldn’t know that because he couldn’t hack it in academia.
As for Mugabe’s claim that he scored better than a Caltech PhD; it’s probably bullshit or the test was probably bullshit.
Read his comments; he has some peripheral math knowledge, but has trouble understanding how to apply that knowledge.
He makes mistakes and not just typos; mistakes in understanding
kate:
you’re the one with “peripheral math knowledge”. do i have to give you the PhD’s name?
…somemore details about him…he was a WHITE GENTILE, he was short and swart…he knew the difference between Alexander Hamilton and George Hamilton…despite his IQ he’s still just an “analyst” at Fireman’s Fund. maybe he doesn’t want or neeed any more, or maybe he finds communicating with his inferiors impossible…idk.
and me:
dad—Harvard
grandad—Princeton
grandma—Columbia
uncle—Yale
aunt—Harvard
etc.
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
and even more they think their cognitive BETTERS are dumb.
and i, “kate”, am not just smart.
for me, 99% of “smart” peolple are insufferable idiots.
and kate,
explain how i came up with my h^2 figure of .65!
i’ll give you a week.
it’s incredibly simple but over your head by cruising altitude.
and kate,
explain how i came up with my h^2 figure of .65!
i’ll give you a week.
Can I try?
You have a lot more patience than I do.
Just use international adoption studies:
Transracial adoption study: Lindblad et al, 2003 | Clear Language, Clear Mind
Transracial adoption study: Bruce et al (2009) | Clear Language, Clear Mind
patience?
you’re a moron jayman. and you’re FAT!
i’m in the bgi study!
JayMan is a celebrity and a family man with a devoted fan base and valued place in the HBD community.
You’re just a carnival barker.
you don’t even know what a “carnival barker” is.
professional wrestling and hevay metal music have devoted fans too.
they and Jayman and Jayman’s fans and YOU…
ARE ALL THE SAME SORT OF PEOPLE!
that jayman thinks the studies he links to have ANY relevance AT ALL is just another example:
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
and even more they think their cognitive BETTERS are dumb.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JayMan
JayMan is a US-based racist…and self-hating person of color who runs a pseudo-scientific blog devoted to promoting the long-exploded notion of biological “race”, alongside of other aspects of so-called Human Bio-Diversity (HBD)…He may be regarded as a prime example of Stockholm Syndrome, whereby victims come to identify with their oppressors and work for causes dear to the oppressors’ hate-filled hearts.
JayMan’s self-hatred is so cartoonish in style that many assume that he’s a white supremacist.
You’re a U.S. based racist.
you don’t even know what a racist is.
do i think multi-ethnic states are disgusting? yes.
do i believe in the nation-state? yes.
do i think all the chinks and douchebag-wallahs should go home? yes.
do i think that scientific racism is NOT scientific and that its adherents are COWARDS and MORNS who can’t just be racists just ’cause? yes.
do i love people who look like me? no. i hate them too!
but homogenous states tend to optimize the average salubriousness of their environment for their members. while heterogeneous states suck for everyone except jews.
as hitler said, “IQ tests are jewish.”
list to some Wagner and maybe you’ll get it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Conversely, highly skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.
Dude,
You’re the most confident arrogant person here. So what does the Dunning-Kruger effect say about your dumb ass?
i’m still waiting for you or kate to give ONE SINGLE comment that…
is anythihg other than name calling.
i’ll be waiting FOREVER, because “both” of you HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO IDEA WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND THIS BECAUSE YOU’RE BOTH MORONS, ESPECIALLY AT MATHS.
but Balsian can’t he’p it. he’s black.
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
and even more they think their cognitive BETTERS are dumb.
ok blasian show me your math chops and explain to me how i came up with my h^2 = .65 figure in my above example?
clue…it invloves math…and my answer is CORRECT.
i’ll give you a week.
ok blasian show me your math chops and explain to me how i came up with my h^2 = .65 figure in my above example?
clue…it invloves math…and my answer is CORRECT.
i’ll give you a week.
Dude, seriously?
Global heritability is the percentage of global variation that’s genetic.
If the global variance is 1.53 & gets reduced to 0.53 when you control for genes, then controlling for genes removes 65% of the variance
Hence, heritability = 0.65
Dude, I’m half Asian.
I’ll fuck you up mathematically.
no fucktard, the only person you’ll fuckup “mathematically” is yourself.
the question was how i came up with .53 and 1.53.
stupid people don’t know they’re stupid.
what are the calculations that lead to var(E) = .53, var(P) = 1.53?
i’ll give you a year.
JayMan,
Thanks for the excellent links. Fascinating that even adopted East Adians do well on IQ tests
the ellen pao case is a case in point and laughable.
her problem was NOT that she was a woman.
her problem was that she IS a hideously UGLY chink.
Hey Pumpkin, I recently came across this terrible article: http://t.co/1XDutqY1VM
I know it isn’t accurate, but what do you think?
FWIW, Cochran debunked it here https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/scanners-live-in-vain/
Cochran’s debunking sounds right but I would like to read the actual paper.
i haven’t even commented on this shitty blof for a year, let alone years.
the truth from AN ACTUAL GENETICIST and not a psychologist (ala person too dumb to be a real scientist):
But you’ve been commenting on HBD blogs in general for years
and jones is WRONG about life expectancy and a fortiori the relationship between telomere length and life expectancy.
with some obvious exceptions which are a very small % of the population:
1. age at death is basically NOT heritable.
2. mice have much longer telomeres than humans and have 1/30th the lifespan. there is NO relationship between telomere length and lifespan for humans…because almost eveyone’s telomeres are already much longer than they need to be.
Jones didn’t really have anything intelligent to say about HBD except for that “you can’t slice the cake, you must unbake the cake” line you’ve often quoted and even that’s debatable.
Life span has a heritability of about 0.25 according to twin studies, which of course are limited to specific countries and a somewhat limited range of environments within them.
first comment:
apparently you either didn’t listen to the ENTIRE interview and/or you’re just too dumb to get all jones’s points.
second comment:
age at death has zero narrow sense h^2 but ca. .2 broad sense…this is IMPOSSIBLE. it would mean that the whole genetic effect is epistatic.
the age at death studies are on MZ twins raised TOGETHER.
and besides the .25 figure = BASICALLY NOT HERITABLE.
though afaik these studies aren’t done via percentile matching and thus underestimate the h^2 as age at death has a restricted range. that is, 90% of people or something like that die between 65 and 90.
To be fair, Mugabe accused Jayman of stock home syndrome, worse than the uncle tommy complex, which is somewhat inappropriate, given the fact that Jay identifies himself as “black”, but his mixed non-black Jamaican heritage, makes him less black. I found Caribbean blacks to be the more affable and the intelligent of the blacks, when compared to Afro Americans who are often than not, dumb-ignorant, and Afro immigrants, who aren’t nearly as friendly as their Caribbean counterparts. Why? Probably the various admixtures of native, European, East Indian and East Asian, and their culture of the easy tropics are the reasons.
The average Black American is 4/5 black. Is JayMan significantly less Black than that?
If you read between the lines Mugabe also thinks that white Gentiles who believe in HBD also have Stockholm Syndrome (since HBD considers them dumber than Ashkenazi Ameicans) and so do non-rich libertarians.
Mugabe hates anyone who lacks class consciousness.
He attacks JayMan because a black HBDer is, in Mugabe’s mind, just the most extreme example of what Mugabe hates.
more totally clueless autism from pp.
i attack JayMan, because JayMan is a MORON.
that’s the ONLY reason. but it is fun to insult him.
You know how hard it is to find identical twins raised apart, right? Really fucking hard. And most of them are raised in pretty similar environments.
total cases are >200 over the entire last century.
actually, shields got his sample relatively cheaply. maybe you could try something like him…
true. very few cases raised in different countries, let alone different continents